41 replies to this topic

[Red Horse]

I guess Ferrari and Schumacher can really thank Kimi's tendency to lose it whenever the pressure is too high (driver in his gearbox, like with Fisi in Brazil or with the slingle lap qual format, already the 2nd time he starts last in 8 races, a 25% chance of having him with zero chance of victory already on Saturday), because after Monaco, also today it was painfully obvious how Michelin's are much more competitive at this point in the season. While Ferrari's car superiority allows the team to still compete in front (the real potential though is given by Rubens, so around 2nd/3rd row), the tires are really slowing them down. However, thanks to Kimi's regular screwups under pressure, Michael gained the leadership of the WDC. I guess Kimi is helping Michael more than Rubens is............

[maclaren]

I too want everybody to know this

[logic]

I too want everybody to know this :yawn:

[Enkei]

:yawn:

[maclaren]

Is it echoeing here

[logic]

Is it echoeing hete?

[Red Horse]

Funny how McLaren's fans can never take any criticism for their drivers. However, having one of the top 2 cars and starting in last position twice is deserving of criticism any way you slice it.

[mclarensmps]

lol, out of a possible 4 teams that can win a race on merit this season, that makes it 2 out of the top 8 cars... that is if i am watching F1... am i?

[Red Horse]

lol, you are watching F1, maybe too much and can't read anymore. Top two cars - Ferrari and McLaren. I wasn't counting single individual cars, but actual makes. Kimi with on of the top 2 (top 3 if you want to include Williams, cars, even top 4 if you muct include Renault which is lesser than the Mac) managed to start LAST twice. If you are watching F1, it should be easy to grasp......

[CLX]

hahahahahahahahah this is so funny!

[Julius]

Yeah, that's right! Kimi cracked under pressure! Yeah...that's it!

I heard Ron threw him off the team!

They say he has an arrest warrant in Finland for being a "Cracker"!

Yeah, right!

[JForce]

Certainly Kimi is making his fair share of mistakes. But he is young, plenty of time for his WDC if he doesn't get it this year.

Don't forget that MS's mistakes have helped Kimi be right up there, so it all evens out.

For sure the Michellins are AUIDA. Its a shame for me as an MS and Ferrari fan. But we will soldier on....

[Pilla]

Originally posted by Red Horse
I guess Ferrari and Schumacher can really thank Kimi's tendency to lose it whenever the pressure is too high (driver in his gearbox, like with Fisi in Brazil or with the slingle lap qual format, already the 2nd time he starts last in 8 races, a 25% chance of having him with zero chance of victory already on Saturday), because after Monaco, also today it was painfully obvious how Michelin's are much more competitive at this point in the season. While Ferrari's car superiority allows the team to still compete in front (the real potential though is given by Rubens, so around 2nd/3rd row), the tires are really slowing them down. However, thanks to Kimi's regular screwups under pressure, Michael gained the leadership of the WDC. I guess Kimi is helping Michael more than Rubens is............

Actualy the true potential of the car is shown from the faster driver, being Micheal Schumacher, for the fact that he is pushing the car closer to its limits. Therefore the Ferrari is a 1st row car (bearing in mind that the Ferrari was slightly heavier in qualifying). Also I think this was a race where the tyres were very even, ok 7 out of the top 10 were Michelin runners but look at the pace of Jordan, and even Minardi before things broke. BAR were having a good race and Sauber had a good qualifying session and promising race. The fact is that Michelin has more top teams than Bridgestone.

[Alexandros]

1 stop strategy suited the mp4-17 better than 2 ones.. It was obvious to me that Kimi would either finish slightly behind DC or infront of him - and he started from the back....

So I guess it wasn't such a disaster, considering where the car would have qualified and raced under 2 stop strategy (coul was 1.5 off pace in qual2.. let's say kimi would only be 1 second off pace.. ) so that would place him in a non-competitive situation relative to Ferrari's/William's/Alonso..

I think it's doubtfull if he would have overtaken anyone but Montoya (after his mistake) on a 2 stop strategy..but then again Montoya would have caught him by the end..

It's just unfortunate that he had a puncture today, else he'd be 5th...and I don't think he could do much better than that even if he started 6th...

[mclarensmps]

Originally posted by Red Horse
lol, you are watching F1, maybe too much and can't read anymore. Top two cars - Ferrari and McLaren. I wasn't counting single individual cars, but actual makes. Kimi with on of the top 2 (top 3 if you want to include Williams, cars, even top 4 if you muct include Renault which is lesser than the Mac) managed to start LAST twice. If you are watching F1, it should be easy to grasp......

yeah and that explains ralf's poles 2 races in a row, and renaults usually starting ahead of mclarens and finishing ahead of them too sometimes? lol, yeah im watching too much f1.... more than you it seems

[Alexandros]

And something else:

There can be 2 approaches: The DC's way and Kimi's way... One is the conservative method and the other is the "push hard" method which actually has the risk of the occasional failure.

Look at their performances and where that got them till here and judge whether it's best for Kimi to risk or not...

[HSJ]

To me it is quite funny to hear the tifosi and MS fans to bash KR. (Todd has been funny lately too!) It is a very clear sign that they are nervous. It is a compliment. They know just as well as anybody that McL don't have the car to really compete at the front anymore, the 17D has fallen behind, and they were significantly inferior early in the season as well. And it is thus clear to all that KR has driven better than MS this season. It bugs them to no end. They've lived the dream for years (myth, dream, whatever you want to call it), and most of the time they could justify it even if it was never quite realistic, but now it is all too obvious that their ideas don't stand scrutiny.

[pUs]

Originally posted by HSJ
To me it is quite funny to hear the tifosi and MS fans to bash KR.

Just stating an obvious fact, which in this case happens to be that Kimi has f*ed up big-time in qualifying twice this year, is 'bashing' to you?

And it is thus clear to all that KR has driven better than MS this season.

No, not in my opinion. Balanced as always, HSJ...

[Battousai]

Originally posted by HSJ
To me it is quite funny to hear the tifosi and MS fans to bash KR. (Todd has been funny lately too!) It is a very clear sign that they are nervous. It is a compliment. They know just as well as anybody that McL don't have the car to really compete at the front anymore, the 17D has fallen behind, and they were significantly inferior early in the season as well. And it is thus clear to all that KR has driven better than MS this season. It bugs them to no end. They've lived the dream for years (myth, dream, whatever you want to call it), and most of the time they could justify it even if it was never quite realistic, but now it is all too obvious that their ideas don't stand scrutiny.

IMO most MS fans should be afraid of Alonso and not Kimi- holy nuts that kid can turn it on. I don't recall a significantly inferior car this season- especially at Malaysia where it could easily have been a McLaren 1-2.

In any case- wasn't this thread about Kimi stuffing it in qualifying again? IMO everyone is being a bit hard on him- but losing it in the second corner was quite amusing.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by HSJ
They've lived the dream for years (myth, dream, whatever you want to call it), and most of the time they could justify it even if it was never quite realistic, but now it is all too obvious that their ideas don't stand scrutiny.

Hmmmmmm, Frank Williams assessment or the Class of 99?

Tough Call.

[d_view7]

Be happy that KR makes mistakes. Otherwise MS would not be even close to KRs points. Thats a pretty good achievement from a 23 year old in an inferior car

[TT6]

Holy cow. This is just the way the new rules were supposed to work. Every now and then one of the top dogs screw up and have to start the race from the backrow. Sadly it seems to be Kimi throwing it away completely way too often.

(He'll win the championship 2003 however. It will taste even sweeter. )

[baddog]

Originally posted by HSJ
And it is thus clear to all that KR has driven better than MS this season.

After the first 4 races this was true, Michael being very mistake prone there. Now it is not, Michael has really seriously outdriven Kimi over the season as a whole, winning 4 races to Kimis 1, while struggling with tyre problems in several races. Kimis failure in Canada MAY not be the start of the end, but he will need to get his ideas in gear for the next race if he isnt to fade away DC style.

look at the race stats:

1 M.Schumacher 54 5 3 - 10 10 10 6 10
2 Kimi Raikkonen 51 6 10 8 8 - 8 8 3

over the last 5 races the score is 46 - 27. since imola MS has been as unstoppable as ever, just exactly as unstoppable as last year actually.. it just doesnt LOOK like it if you allow your eyes and wishes to fool you. If 4 wins out of 5 is what ferrari di when its not going well, god help the rest if it goes well...

Shaun

[Claudius]

A little summary

Wins Poles FastLap Points
MS 4 4 3 54
KR 1 0 2 51


MS has been superior in the last five races, but nevertheless kudos to Kimi for driving very good and getting good results in many races... That's why he is the only contender to MS for the crown this year.

[MJP]

Originally posted by HSJ
To me it is quite funny to hear the tifosi and MS fans to bash KR. (Todd has been funny lately too!) It is a very clear sign that they are nervous. It is a compliment. They know just as well as anybody that McL don't have the car to really compete at the front anymore, the 17D has fallen behind, and they were significantly inferior early in the season as well. And it is thus clear to all that KR has driven better than MS this season. It bugs them to no end. They've lived the dream for years (myth, dream, whatever you want to call it), and most of the time they could justify it even if it was never quite realistic, but now it is all too obvious that their ideas don't stand scrutiny.

False. This MS's fan surely had to say more kind words about Kimi in one thread, than you about MS in whole season...

[silvery]

[QUOTE]MS has been superior in the last five races, but nevertheless kudos to Kimi for driving very good and getting good results in many races... That's why he is the only contender to MS for the crown this year. [/B][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

That is what Schumi also said. According to Schumi, Kimi is the only one who really is a threat in the battle of this year. He said he isn't really worried about Ralf or Montoya...

[Teez]

Originally posted by HSJ

To me it is quite funny to hear the tifosi and MS fans to bash KR. (Todd has been funny lately too!) It is a very clear sign that they are nervous.

Jesus H Christ! That must mean you're literally ******* your pants considering how much you bash and attempt to dismiss Schumacher's accomplishments!

[Fortymark]

I´m a little bit sceptical to the "wonder michelins". Take a look at Williams pit stop. they drove with the same tyres exept for the rear tyres changed in the second stop?
Must be hard as cryptonite... Sure it´s an good tyre but it´s strange that they have pitstops and don´t change tyres, just refuel. Must be better to have softer tyres and change them to new ones if your going to refuel anyway.

[Julius]

OMG - Kimi makes a mistake!!! And, as a result, starts from the back of the grid.

So what? Why all the moaning and, insome cases, Gloating! It's not like the McClaren had the power to handle the BMW and Ferrari, so Kimi's got to take a few chances. Anyways, his Championship points speak for themselves.

Please remember, I was not too thrilled when McClaren brought Kimi on board - he was quite young and - I still think - unproven. However, he has proven himself well (made a believer out of me!) while at McClaren and I'll defer judgement to Mr. Raikonen: if he think he needs to take a "chance or two", then so be it.

This is a great driver folks - as good as they get. But...he ain't exactly diving the best car on the field: that's Ferrari and I think they proved it yesterday. Nevertheless, he's done wonders.

My hat's off to Kimi.

[Enkei]

It's Räikkönen, not Raikonen, McLaren and not McClaren.
I think Kimi screwed up in qualifying, and it was not neccesairy to go off on turn one. It was an amateuristic move and it may not happen again. After two front rows in Austria and Monaco, I thought he was on top of it, but he clearly wasn't. Next time he should be more carefull and not make "do or die laps" in qualifying. Afterall, it's better to start from 4th than from 20th for example.

And this comes from a Räikkönen/McLaren-fan.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Enkei
Afterall, it's better to start from 4th than from 20th for example.

Indeed. But it's also better to score 2*2nd + 1*5th than 3*4th positions: 19 > 15

[LuckyStrike1]

Not the first time Kimi makes a big mistake though ....

[logic]

Thank for letting everyone to know these important things
I want too everyone to know that it was not last time Kimi makse mistakes
He is not Robot!!

[kismet]

Interestingly enough, Kimi and MS have almost identical results so far this year as far as throwing away points due to driving like a muppet goes. Both have one DNF as a result of an accident/driving error and one race where their own actions put them to the back and where, incidentally, both salvaged 6th places in the end. Other than that, MS has been pretty much winning the races while Kimi's been finishing second, and that's the real reason to the current points gap between them.

Oh, and even with less than stellar success rates, they're both doing just fine in comparison to the rest of the field, their respective teammates very notably included.

[man from martinlaakso]

KR clearly made a grevious error in the qualifying. The car understeered heavily and even DC could not cope well with it, although he is better handling an understeering car than Kimi (or Mika). KR noticed it in the warm up lap, but he probably thought that when 14 drivers have completed their own qualifying laps there will be enough rubber on the track to keep the grip. But there wasn't and Kimi slided too much to the right in the first turn and was unable to turn the car in turn two. I think, that if the conditions would have been dry under the second practices, McLaren would have been in 0.4 - 0.6 sec from the pole, because then the cae could have been well adjusted. Now DC lost about 1.4 sec and Kimi even he would have managed to make a good qualifying, would only have won DC a few tenths.

So a possible 7th place in the qualifyings and 5th place in the race (only 1 point loss fron the par result). I don't think, that KR had the chances to keep up with MS, Williams cars and Alonso (KR's best lap was almost 0.7 sec slower than Alonso's). Alonso made a good race, but keep in mind, that the Renault engine is probably stronger than the Mac's engine (in Mac 18 it will be different situation, ot has 30 hps more than the 17 model). Also the BMW engine is clearly stronger than the old mac's engine and Ferrari is the best car by a healthy margin. The only reason, why Williams cars were so close to MS, were the superior Michelin tyres, but they are not superior in every track and every conditions.

Some of you have written, that Kimi only has to score a couple of third places and then he can wipe the floor with other drivers having the new 18 model. However there is a big word against this scenario and this is reliability. The new Ferrari model has been excellent in reliability : 4 GPs and 8 races and not a single technical DNFs. I can't see McLaren being able to do the same. So probably the both titles will go to Ferrari in this season, but the year 2004 seems promising, the gap between Ferrari and three other teams is now MUCH narrower than it was in 2002.

[logic]

Originally posted by Red Horse
Funny how McLaren's fans can never take any criticism for their drivers. However, having one of the top 2 cars and starting in last position twice is deserving of criticism any way you slice it.

I want everyone to know that I ask you this question: What should I do that I give you an impression that I take your criticism. Kimi made mistake, but your post was simply a flamebait

I just wanted everyone to know this

[mp4]

Originally posted by Red Horse
Funny how McLaren's fans can never take any criticism for their drivers. However, having one of the top 2 cars and starting in last position twice is deserving of criticism any way you slice it.

I am a gynormous McLaren fan. Ever since the days of Emmo and Denny, they have always been my team and always will be.

Feel free to criticize Ron and the rest, when you see fit. Hell, I do the exact same thing.

When all is said and done, this is my team and I'll always stick by them. It's kinda like a really yummy female who can be sweet and charming one minute and a complete bitch goddess the next...

Males are a stupid breed. We're easily lead but not often satisfied.

[AndreasF1]

HSJ wrote : And it is thus clear to all that KR has driven better than MS this season. It bugs them to no end.

______________________________________
Are you sure you are watching F1 and not some other series? Seriously how do you figure that KR has done a better job than MS? Seriously I am not an MS fan, never have been, but to claim that Mr. Personality has done a better job this year than MS in just plain ignorant. 4wins agains 1win not including the 2 times he threw it away in qualifying.. Only someone with a skewed sense of reality could come come up with something that strange.

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by HSJ
To me it is quite funny to hear the tifosi and MS fans to bash KR. (Todd has been funny lately too!) It is a very clear sign that they are nervous. It is a compliment. They know just as well as anybody that McL don't have the car to really compete at the front anymore, the 17D has fallen behind, and they were significantly inferior early in the season as well. And it is thus clear to all that KR has driven better than MS this season. It bugs them to no end. They've lived the dream for years (myth, dream, whatever you want to call it), and most of the time they could justify it even if it was never quite realistic, but now it is all too obvious that their ideas don't stand scrutiny.

I'm embarassed for you, do you ever think before you type? It doesn't seem so!
I'm not sure if you're deliberately playing the village idiot, but you sure as hell earning that reputation!

Kimi is extremely good racer indeed and has been impressive this year, but I still believe he's been a little bit overhyped, then again various other drivers have been too.
It seems to change every 2 weeks depending on results. A few weeks of Kimi hypo-mania, followed by a few weeks of JPM-mania and then followed by Alonso...the one constant factor is Schumacher in all of this. To most of these fans, he becomes the anti-christ!

As a long time Schumacher fan, having seen all his rivalries, there's only one driver I've ever been frightened of as an opponent aside from the great Senna.....and that's been Mika Hakkinen, a very formidable opponent....his speed in the right car was astounding and their battles were legendary.

I don't get that same feeling from the latest 4 big guns (JPM, Kimi, Alonso & Webber), sure they're very good, but they're still young, still need refining and sometimes too eager which leads to silly mistakes.....over a 16- race championship, none of them would have the same consistency as MS....and that at the end of the day, is the difference between being a champion and a runner-up.
A couple years time with MS in the twilight of his career, these 4 will take over for sure.
From what I've seen to date I would place Alonso marginally ahead of JPM ,Kimi & Webber...in that pecking order.

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by HSJ
To me it is quite funny to hear the tifosi and MS fans to bash KR. (Todd has been funny lately too!) It is a very clear sign that they are nervous. It is a compliment.

yes it is an indirect compliment because Kimi is just a rookie driver who Montezemolo thought was way to experienced to drive for Ferrari, but now the Ferrari fans are suddenly acting surprised that Kimi makes some ridiculous rookie errors just like any young driver. However I'm sure every Ferrari fan was surprised that Rubinho finished ahead of Kimi in the Montreal race, even considering Kimi started from the pits and RB had a crash. Kimi's performance this year has made Rubinho a complete irrelevance in F1 because it's clear that the WCC is going to be difficult to win for Ferrari when Kimi and Alonso are easily capable of destroying Rubinho every weekend. Naturally all Ferrari fans believe that Michael is way better than Kimi, and there's no real threat to the WDC. There's not a genuine nervousness amongst tifosi, it's just bashing KR for the fun of it, because the kid's iceman tag doesn't seem to fit.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by The RedBaron
As a long time Schumacher fan, having seen all his rivalries, there's only one driver I've ever been frightened of as an opponent aside from the great Senna.....and that's been Mika Hakkinen, a very formidable opponent....his speed in the right car was astounding and their battles were legendary.

I don't get that same feeling from the latest 4 big guns (JPM, Kimi, Alonso & Webber), sure they're very good, but they're still young, still need refining and sometimes too eager which leads to silly mistakes.....over a 16- race championship, none of them would have the same consistency as MS....and that at the end of the day, is the difference between being a champion and a runner-up.
A couple years time with MS in the twilight of his career, these 4 will take over for sure.
From what I've seen to date I would place Alonso marginally ahead of JPM ,Kimi & Webber...in that pecking order.

Absolutely feel the same way. None of those drivers mentioned provide any threat to Schumacher at the moment for the WDC. They may look brilliant in one race or another, but over the course of 16 races Schumacher will show his domination of them. If I had to rate them it would be

1. JPM
2. Alonso
3. Kimi
4. Webber.

[Pilla]

Originally posted by AndreasF1

______________________________________
Are you sure you are watching F1 and not some other series? Seriously how do you figure that KR has done a better job than MS? Seriously I am not an MS fan, never have been, but to claim that Mr. Personality has done a better job this year than MS in just plain ignorant. 4wins agains 1win not including the 2 times he threw it away in qualifying.. Only someone with a skewed sense of reality could come come up with something that strange.

Remember that last years ferrari was faster than the 17d and this years one more so. I think the 17d is at best the 3rd fastest car