31 replies to this topic

[Magee]

Here is a jpg of a 1907 ITALA much like the car that Prince Borghese drove from Peking to Paris in that year. I wonder if it is the same car? And is this car in a UK museum?

[uechtel]

The Peking to Paris "race" was in 1907! Taken it strictly it was no race at all but intended as a journey to demonstrate reliability of cars on a "cooperative" basis between the participants. But of course it did not last long until everybody discovered the publicity value of being the first arriving in Paris...

It COULD be the same car, but on the pictures I have it looked quite different. It was more like a pick-up without the fuel tank and a much longer rear, where all the necessary supply stuff, tent, fuel load, tools, crafts was transported on the car. The car in your picture looks much more like a version for the race tracks, but the front is quite similar.

[dretceterini]

If it is the same car, it has been modified quite a bit. I also think the 1907 car was grey and not red...

[Wolf]

I think DMJ could be of use in this discussion, since he has the book 'Velike Nagrade' with pictur (IIRC) of Borghese's car in the race. Haven't seen much of him in here lately...

[Vitesse2]

It's in the Biscaretti:

http://www.sosed.it/...r00/e14-400.htm

[Magee]

Oops, I made a typo; it is 1907 and not 1927. I've changed the date in the first frame.
Magee

[dmj]

As Richard pointed original Peking to Paris car is in Biscaretti museum. However, pictured car is also well-known, I saw pictures of it in various books and magazines, so I presume it is or recently was in UK. Someone more familiar with VSCC events could probably help with details of its owner and whereabouts - I do believe it is still regularly campaigned. In a book not worth mentioning here this very model is pictured and described as "1907 example with a massive 16.7-litre engine producing 120 bhp." Borgese's car was of the same age but had only 7.4 litres and I don't know of any factory model with such a huge engine. But then, it's a book that can't distinguish a Monteverdi from a Ferrari...

[Aurelio Lampredi]

Does anyone has any technical information about Itala's rotary valve system called "AVALVE"?
Thanks in advance!

[dretceterini]

The valve was an item that looked kind of like a tappet on a long shaft that was geared at the bottom. There was a hole in the tappet looking piece that lined up with the port, allowing gas in and sealing then off the port. There is a drawing of this in a book on eraly Italian car history, but I don't remember which book off hand. I'll try and find it.

[Aurelio Lampredi]

Originally posted by dretceterini
The valve was an item that looked kind of like a tappet on a long shaft that was geared at the bottom. There was a hole in the tappet looking piece that lined up with the port, allowing gas in and sealing then off the port. There is a drawing of this in a book on eraly Italian car history, but I don't remember which book off hand. I'll try and find it.

Do you have this book? If you find it please could you post the drawing and some technical details here? Thank you very very much!

[dretceterini]

If I can find it I will be happy to post the drawing. The problem for the moment is that I do not remember which book it is in, nor am I sure if I have the book or saw it at someone else's home...

[Aurelio Lampredi]

Thanks for the interest dretceterini.

Is there anyone else with any information about Avalve system? Thanks in advance!

[robert dick]

The Itala Avalve system :



1) Old system (45 degrees) and new system (135 degrees).

= = = =



2) Main shaft (was mounted on the side) driving the two vertical distributors shafts (A).

= = = =



3) The 50 HP Itala Avalve engine, bore/stroke 130/160 mm – from La Vie Automobile/Paris no. 623 – 6 September 1913.
In the 1913 GP de l’ACF the cylinder dimensions were 125/170 mm.



= = = = = = = = = =

The 1907 Peking-Paris Itala was a pepped up stock chassis (130/140 mm, T-head).

The first pure racing car from Itala (180/145 mm, F-head) appeared at the 1905 Circuit des Ardennes. In September 1905, such an Itala won the Coppa Florio at Brescia, driven by Raggio.

[Ray Bell]

This looks interesting, but I can't work out what the diagrams mean...

Any chance of an explanation?

[robert dick]

Image 1 :
A couple of cylinders I and II seen from above, and the “sort of propeller” being the rotary valve. On the left the first solution : The rotary valve turns clockwise and the ports are angled at 45 degrees. On the right the second solution : The valve turns anti-clockwise and the ports are angled at 135 degrees.
The second solution had the advantage that the feeding of the cylinders was more regular, avoiding overheating of the valves.

Image 2 :
Photo of the shaft which drove the vertical spindels responsible for the rotation of the valves.

[dretceterini]

Robert:

Thanks for posting the images.

[Ray Bell]

Thanks robert... I've never heard of this system before...

It's amazing what they could do with those low compression rations.

[robert dick]

Avalve system :
I don’t have any detailed technical drawing of the rotary valve. Since the intake and the exhaust were on the same engine side, I think the rotary valve was simply a cylinder with two cross drillings – the lower one being in connection with the intake manifold/carburettor, the upper one with the exhaust.

After 1914, Itala cancelled the Avalve model range, the problem was overheating and hence deficient lubrication of the rotary valves (despite an own oilpump).

The Avalve system was an alternative to the Darracq/Henriod rotary valve system (in principle the same solution) and, in the largest sense, to the Knight/Kilbourne double sleeve and the Argyll/Burt/McCollum single sleeve systems.

[eldougo]

Robert ------ The name ITALA ? was it a name because it was made in Italy or does it use the
letters to shorten down its real meaning???

Thanks DOUG.

[robert dick]

The origin of the name Itala is not a condensation of I.T.A.L.A., it is simply a word-play, not only based on Italia, but also on... Fiat (Itala was located in Turin).
In contrast to other companies founded by the Ceirano family :
SPA = Societa Piemontese Automobili,
SCAT = Societa Ceirano Automobili Torino.

[Aurelio Lampredi]

Originally posted by robert dick
The Avalve system was an alternative to the Darracq/Henriod rotary valve system (in principle the same solution) and, in the largest sense, to the Knight/Kilbourne double sleeve and the Argyll/Burt/McCollum single sleeve systems.

Have you any information about these systems? Thanks.

[robert dick]

Darracq/Henriod :
three- and four-litre four-cylinder touring cars built in 1912 – same principle as the Avalve system, geometry of the rotary valve was different – see :
http://www.motorlege...tion/index4.htm

Knight :
see : http://www.theautomo.../2003_04_48.pdf

In 1915, Finley R. Porter, the former technical director of Mercer, built his own FRP (Finley Robertson Porter) racing cars using Knight engines. The cars were entered in the 1915 Indianapolis 500 but did not start due to some material defects (don’t remember what it was exactly).

Burt/McCollum :
see : http://www.scotiaweb.co.uk/argyll/

Pic-Pic, or Piccard-Pictet, a Swiss company based in Geneva, started in the 1914 GP de l’ACF with a couple of cars using Burt/McCollum engines.

[fines]

Originally posted by robert dick
In 1915, Finley R. Porter, the former technical director of Mercer, built his own FRP (Finley Robertson Porter) racing cars using Knight engines. The cars were entered in the 1915 Indianapolis 500 but did not start due to some material defects (don’t remember what it was exactly).

I am not sure what the trouble was at Indy, but four weeks later in Chicago Porter withdrew the cars because "it was found impossible to give them oil enough without causing so much smoke as to be dangerous to the drivers of other cars. Rather than jeopardize his competitors, Porter withdrew his entries." (Quote "Motor Age").

[robert dick]

The FRPs did not qualify for the 1915 Indianapolis 500 because of broken piston rings.

= = =

Other racing cars with Burt/McCollum engines :
The six-cylinder Guyot Spéciales built by Albert Guyot in 1925 and 1926/27, one 2-litre (started in the 1925 GP of Italy/Monza) and a batch of 1.5-litres (started in the 1926 Indianapolis 500) - later one of the 1.5-litres with two-seat body was renamed Bucciali.

[marion5drsn]

Ce moteur Darracq-Henriod de 1912 After looking at this valve layout I can see what one problem was and that is the sealing of the valve mechanism! At this time high temparature steels were just not available to anyone. Any one who has either seen or done valve grinding and lapping knows just how difficult this operation is. After the engine heats up the sealing probably went the way of a lot of designs that look good on paper but failed in passing the test of time. M.L. Anderson

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
It's in the Biscaretti

Your link seems to be dead now; I have just uploaded on Carlo Biscaretti di Ruffia Museum - Torino (Italy) thread a photo I tok today.

Ciao,
Guido

[Magee]

Guido, thanks for posting the images in the other thread. Unfortunately, I'm unable to download them for viewing. Can you tell/show me the major differences between the museum car and the image I posted at the beginning of this thread? Thank you.
Magee

[gdecarli]

Magee, yesterday I was tyred and I made a mistype while writing URL address of each photo. Now I corrected them, so you should be able to view big photos.

Ciao,
Guido

[Paul Taylor]

There is a 1907 Itala in the National Motor Museum, very similar to the one pictured.



However, the car at Beaulieu was driven by Alessandro Cagno, winning the "Coppa della Velocita" of Brescia of 1907.

[Magee]

Paul, thanks for the picture. Both this and the one I used at the beginning look very much alike. On my visit to England I want to view this car in person.
The image I used was on a postcard, and the owner of the car was shown as a F. Cheverton. No other information was provided.

[Madelier]

For those who might be interested an Itala is currently re-doing the Peking to Paris along with a two De Dion Bouton's (one 1907 Model) a 1907 Spyker and a Contal.

A friend of mine is running in this as co-driver and all round mechanic on the 1907 De Dion Bouton. *lucky sod*

The details from http://www.abc.net.a...ris/default.htm

'In May 2005, ten modern-day adventurers led by renowned adventurer Lang Kidby will set out from Beijing in five one-hundred-year-old motorcars.

In a high-energy real life drama, they will relive one of the world's great overland adventures - the first long-distance car race from Peking to Paris in 1907. They will drive through the Great Wall, across Mongolia and the Gobi Desert, into Russia and through the Siberian wastelands and forests, through Eastern Europe, to finish in Paris.'

[Arthur Anderson]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
There is a 1907 Itala in the National Motor Museum, very similar to the one pictured.



However, the car at Beaulieu was driven by Alessandro Cagno, winning the "Coppa della Velocita" of Brescia of 1907.

Also one very similar in the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Hall of Fame Museum. Indy's ITALA has a bit longer chassis, carrying a stack of spare tires on a deck, behind the fuel tank.

I'm not sure of the story of this one, but it was an open-road racing car. It does run, and when they have put the car onto the Speedway for exhibition, the sound is pretty awesome indeed!

Art