44 replies to this topic

[m.tanney]

  This would have been a more appropriate post for last Sunday, which was Pentecost Sunday, but here goes...
  In the years since his death, I have come upon some vague references (some here on TNF) to a couple of mystical or religious experiences had by Ayrton Senna. I suspect that the vagueness of the references may be in direct proportion to the the discomfort felt by motor racing people when it comes to such matters.
  I believe that the first of these events occurred at Monaco. I do not know the year. From what little I have read, it seems to have been less of a religious experience, in the classic mode, than what theologians call "an experience of transcendence".
  The other event was, apparently, at Suzuka. It seems to have been more of a typical religious experience - some kind of a vision.
  Can anyone point me toward a published source of information on these events? Does anyone recall any more about them? Were there only two such occurrences, or were there others?

  Mike

[fines]

I don't know if this is what you're after, but I recall an interview of DSJ with Senna in the 1991/2 (?) Autocourse (someone correct me if I got the year wrong), the Brazilian talked about a kind of 'transcendence' experience during qualifying for the 1988 Monaco GP.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by fines
I don't know if this is what you're after, but I recall an interview of DSJ with Senna in the 1991/2 (?) Autocourse (someone correct me if I got the year wrong), the Brazilian talked about a kind of 'transcendence' experience during qualifying for the 1988 Monaco GP.

Senna also claimed to have had a vision of God at Suzuka - 50 feet tall, dressed in a suit and standing by the fairground.

Personally, I wouldn't go wheel to wheel into a corner with someone who said he'd seen that. I've no doubt that Senna had a profound faith, but I don't think he was averse to playing mind-games with other drivers...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Senna also claimed to have had a vision of God at Suzuka - 50 feet tall, dressed in a suit and standing by the fairground.

??

[DOHC]

Originally posted by petefenelon
Senna also claimed to have had a vision of God at Suzuka - 50 feet tall, dressed in a suit and standing by the fairground.

From what I can tell, it can't have been Bernie...

[Wolf]

Pete, I'd dare say that profound faith doesn't go hand in hand with things that could be described as premeditated attempt of murder (admittedly, that's a harsh way to put it, but I'd say closer to truth than racing incident)...

[DOHC]

Originally posted by m.tanney
  This would have been a more appropriate post for last Sunday, which was Pentecost Sunday, but here goes...
  In the years since his death, I have come upon some vague references (some here on TNF) to a couple of mystical or religious experiences had by Ayrton Senna. I suspect that the vagueness of the references may be in direct proportion to the the discomfort felt by motor racing people when it comes to such matters.
  I believe that the first of these events occurred at Monaco. I do not know the year. From what little I have read, it seems to have been less of a religious experience, in the classic mode, than what theologians call "an experience of transcendence".

1988.

Maybe this thread is one that has what you're looking for? It's been discussed a number of times on this board.

[m.tanney]

  Thanks for the link, DOHC. There's a good quote about the Monaco experience on that thread. No mention of the source, though. I assume that it was the Autocouse interview Pete mentioned.

Originally posted by petefenelon
Senna also claimed to have had a vision of God at Suzuka...

  Does anyone know of a source for the Suzuka story?

[m.tanney]

  Surely there must be something in one of the 20+ Senna books that are either in or out of print. In one of the five (!) by Christopher Hilton, perhaps?
  On the subject of Senna books: What would be the book to buy if I was buying only one? Is there a definitive biography?

  Mike

[Ray Bell]

Find the one that says he had a very low threshold of pain and you've got your book...

[The First MH]

Reading the title I thought this was in reference to "The Ecstacy of Rita Joe" a very good play written by George Ryga. Of course he used 'ecstacy' in a very different way (there are three meanings to the word ecstacy btw, and it is the third he refers to - check it out). So I opened this thread with intrigue, only to realize that you meant it in an entirely different way.

Anyway, carry on

Would have been very interesting had you have meant it in this way

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by The First MH
Reading the title I thought this was in reference to "The Ecstacy of Rita Joe" a very good play written by George Ryga. Of course he used 'ecstacy' in a very different way (there are three meanings to the word ecstacy btw, and it is the third he refers to - check it out). So I opened this thread with intrigue, only to realize that you meant it in an entirely different way.

Anyway, carry on

Would have been very interesting had you have meant it in this way

Isn't 'your ecstacy' the correct form of address to an exarch of the Greek Orthodox Church?

(it's weird the stuff that sticks in my head....)

pete

[The First MH]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Isn't 'your ecstacy' the correct form of address to an exarch of the Greek Orthodox Church?

(it's weird the stuff that sticks in my head....)

pete

I don't know about that.

Anyway, I wouldn't call it mine, but this is the one I mean:

3. Violent distraction of mind; violent emotion; excessive grief of anxiety; insanity; madness. [Obs.]

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by The First MH
...So I opened this thread with intrigue, only to realize that you meant it in an entirely different way.

  Yes. I originally thought of calling the thread "The Ecstasy of St. Ayrton", after Bernini's The Ecstasy of St. Teresa, but was afraid the "St." part might be a bit much. I didn't want to give the impression of being flippant.
  Of course, there are many definitions of ecstasy. Some refer to a state of being "beside oneself", which seems to describe the Monaco incident. Others refer to a state of rapture: a mystical experience or vision "in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things", which might describe the Suzuka event - I can't say, I still haven't read a description of it.
  Two pieces in the jigsaw puzzle picture of a very complex and brilliant man. Probably quite important pieces but, as I wrote in my first post, not the sort of thing that most of us are comfortable with.

[m.tanney]

  Re-reading the post above, I realize that I spent way too much time in Catholic schools - and that I may have paid more attention than I'd thought.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by m.tanney
Does anyone know of a source for the Suzuka story?

Richard Williams references it in his excellent book, "The Death of Ayrton Senna"

The apparent sighting occurred on the finishing straight in 1988 as he won his first WDC. As he exited the chicane he looked up and saw God. No mention of God being either a sharp dresser or being a giant.

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by petefenelon

Senna also claimed to have had a vision of God at Suzuka - 50 feet tall, dressed in a suit and standing by the fairground.

That would be Morgan Freeman.

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by Vanwall
That would be Morgan Freeman.

Morgan Freeman played Nuvolari?

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by mikedeering
Richard Williams references it in his excellent book, "The Death of Ayrton Senna"

Mike,
  I'd always assumed that the Williams book was just about the crash at Imola. Does it have much in the way of biographical content, relative to the Imola material?
  I wonder where the whole giant-in-a-business-suit thing came from?

[fines]

Originally posted by m.tanney
  I wonder where the whole giant-in-a-business-suit thing came from?

From an insane mind?

[Haddock]

Richard Williams book is as far as I know the definitive Senna biography, and goes into the 1988 Monaco qualifying story in some depth. Richard Williams also references some similar things which jazz musicians have talked about in relation to live improvisation which gives an interesting perspective on what Senna was saying (Richard Williams started off as a journalist at Melody Maker and has written a biography of Miles Davies, I last saw his byline on an article the anti-Iraq war movement in the UK newspaper 'The Guardian', so a man of many talents......)

To describe Suzuka 1990 as an act of attempted murder is worthy of a tabloid newspaper. A reckless, perhaps callous disregard for the lives of other Grand Prix drivers ? yes, a deliberate attempt to kill Alain Prost ? No.

[Doug Nye]

Richard was here yesterday, researching his next book which is on the 1957 Pescara Grand Prix - a great sporting moment, you see. He is a good egg, a fine writer and a man of enormously broad sporting interests and understanding - like enthusing about Real Madrid or somesuch footie team blitzing Eintrach-Frankfurt 7-3 in 1960???? Something like that. And he's covering the woolly-ball at Wimbledon next week...with apparent interest...

I still think, however, that some of the Senna story was and remains complete cobblers...

DCN

[Ray Bell]

And still no mention of the low threshold of pain?

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by m.tanney
Re-reading the post above, I realize that I spent way too much time in Catholic schools - and that I may have paid more attention than I'd thought.

OT, probably.
Funny, Mike, I frequently end up extracting similar conclusions
Thanks for finding the adequate words to express it
Felix

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Haddock
Richard Williams book is as far as I know the definitive Senna biography, and goes into the 1988 Monaco qualifying story in some depth. Richard Williams also references some similar things which jazz musicians have talked about in relation to live improvisation which gives an interesting perspective on what Senna was saying (Richard Williams started off as a journalist at Melody Maker and has written a biography of Miles Davies, I last saw his byline on an article the anti-Iraq war movement in the UK newspaper 'The Guardian', so a man of many talents......)

Williams is also a former host of the greatest music programme ever to have been on British TV, The Old Grey Whistle Test. Good taste in music and sport ;)

(he pre-dates 'Whispering' Bob Harris on it, IIRC).

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I still think, however, that some of the Senna story was and remains complete cobblers...

  That might well be the case. He could have been playing mind games, as Pete suggested. I used to wonder if some of the more outrageous Senna quotes were private jokes he was playing on the media.
  On the other hand, Senna may have been giving an honest account of the events as he perceived them. Brazilian religious culture, as I understand it, is a unique blend of traditional piety and religious imagery with a particularly Latin enthusiasm. A man from that background might be somewhat more likely to have, or believe he had, such an experience.
  There's another possibility: that Senna did have some kind of extraordinary experience, but that the popular press blew it up to fantastic proportions. A case of cobblers, indeed - but whose cobblers? That's why I'd like to find the original quote.

P.S. Thanks to all for recommending Richard Williams' work. I'd been put off by the title of his Senna book, assuming it was just about the crash. Trusting your good taste, gentlemen, I'll order a copy.

[DOHC]

Originally posted by m.tanney
A man from that background might be somewhat more likely to have, or believe he had, such an experience.

People all over the world, and in all different cultures, misinterpret their senses every now and then; they misunderstand their own experiences; see things that don't exist; remember things that haven't happened, and -- of course -- forget things that have happened; they see causes where there are none; don't see causes where they do exist; and so on. This is nothing unusual. Feelings, beliefs and imagination play an important role in this kind of confusion or self-deception.

Once upon a time people believed in witchcraft, and there were numerous witnesses completely convinced of having seen witches and their work. People believe(d) in astrology and tarot cards; people who don't have a proper training believe that if an object moves, there's a "force" pushing it; if you have several witnesses to an accident, don't be surprised if they have one story each, and that they all claim to be right; the list is endless.

Senna seeing God at Suzuka is an event of this kind. When he qualified at Monaco in 1988, he was obviously "in the groove," but when he describes it as no longer driving the car consciously, it's cobblers. Who believes he was unconscious? What he probably refers to is an experience similar to what you have when you learn to ride a bike the first time -- you stop thinking about what the proper action is at each moment; you just "do it."

[doc540]

"Who believes he was unconscious?"

I don't think anyone has proposed unconsciousness.


However, there are other possibilities apart from the most narrow you constructed. States of consciousness exist by degrees rather than a simple "in or out".


With all due respect, DOHC, are you discounting every transrational experience in the history of mankind? It's a greater leap to wave them all away as "fooling one's mind" than to give credence to at least some of the myriad of altered state experiences. Surely all of them aren't superstitious and unenlightened.

And I'm not suggesting one extreme or the other. Afterall, all head and you dry up, all heart and you burn up.

Respectfully,
doc

[DOHC]

Originally posted by doc540
I don't think anyone has proposed unconsciousness.

I appreciate the sanity of that post!;)

Originally posted by doc540
With all due respect, DOHC, are you discounting every transrational experience in the history of mankind?

Not at all, what I'm saying is that they are quite common, and that they don't mean much. There are lots of studies of these phenomena, and they are particularly interesting in an athropological/cultural/psychological context. What such studies show is that "human experience" in general is not reliable. It is highly subjective and as such dependent on beliefs, emotions and imagination.

Everybody does irrational things. Elevating the irrational to something extraordinary or deep or transcendent is what is questionable.

[doc540]

By definition, "discounting" means exactly what you followed with: "they don't mean much".

So, the voluminous record of mankind's transrational (apart from "irrational") experiences don't mean much apart from their commonality?

Every vision, epiphany, every experience of "the other" by every human being from every spiritual discipline from the absurd to the sublime throughout recorded history though highly subjective "doesn't mean much" in your opinion?

That, to me, is in itself quite the leap.

To give little meaning to them all including Senna's and dismiss them as simply "dependent on beliefs, emotions and imagination" relagates them to nothing more than conditioned, self-induced illusions.

That's entirely possible, but I'm not the man to pooh-pooh for instance the experiences of every saint and martyr that's ever claimed them to be valid.

If you're confident enough to do so, you're a better man than I am.

[Ray Bell]

There may be other answers...

Try Ephesians 6:12.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I'm just curious, has there ever been a psychological study done on Senna? He doesn't strike me as completely sane person, he was a genius behind the wheel, but maybe he suffered from affliction common to many geniuses.

[Ray Bell]

Careful saying things like that around here...

Castration usually follows such suggestions.

And still no mention of his low threshold of pain?

[Lotus23]

I find myself substituting "Patton" for "Senna" in these posts...

[stuartbrs]

In Nigel Roebucks GrandPrix book of either `85 or `86 there is an article on Senna and , amongst other things, he is described as "the first of the computer generation of drivers " and having a "low thresh hold of pain" which was suggested that may go part way of explaining his extraordinary senses inside the cockpit of a ,very stiff, racing car.

When I get home tonight I will dig it out and post the exact phrases used.

[John B]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Senna also claimed to have had a vision of God at Suzuka - 50 feet tall, dressed in a suit and standing by the fairground.

Personally, I wouldn't go wheel to wheel into a corner with someone who said he'd seen that...

This should be a quote of the year candidate.....

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Senna also claimed to have had a vision of God at Suzuka - 50 feet tall, dressed in a suit and standing by the fairground.

Personally, I wouldn't go wheel to wheel into a corner with someone who said he'd seen that...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ah, given what happened in later years, Suzuka must have been an extraordinary place for Senna: seeing phenomena's and visions that (and let's put this down as neutral as possible) the majority of other people present out there didn't see at that very same time.....

Henri Greuter

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Haddock


To describe Suzuka 1990 as an act of attempted murder is worthy of a tabloid newspaper. A reckless, perhaps callous disregard for the lives of other Grand Prix drivers ? yes, a deliberate attempt to kill Alain Prost ? No.

Sounds like a classic definition of attempted manslaughter to me. And, yes, I qualified as a lawyer rather more than 30 years ago, but I don't think the law has changed since then.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by stuartbrs
In Nigel Roebucks GrandPrix book of either `85 or `86 there is an article on Senna and , amongst other things, he is described as "the first of the computer generation of drivers " and having a "low thresh hold of pain" which was suggested that may go part way of explaining his extraordinary senses inside the cockpit of a ,very stiff, racing car.....

This was my feeling too...

His extreme sensitivity to touch must surely have heightened the sensory input to aid him in knowing what the car was doing.

[VAR1016]

I don't believe any of this rubbish.

I am however. happy to believe that with his arrogance, Senna could quite easily have convinced himself that he saw almost anything - certainly I accept the point that he would do anything to "put one over" the others and of course if that didn't work, there was always the option of driving into them, wasn't there?

As for 1988 ,was it the "mystical experience" that caused him to drive into the wall at Monaco and subsequently run away and hide in his flat?


Come on chaps, it's hardly Nuvolari, Caratch, Ascari or Moss [etc.] is it?

PdeRL

[DOHC]

Originally posted by doc540
By definition, "discounting" means exactly what you followed with: "they don't mean much".

Yes, I know that, but even discounting must start from somewhere, and the substance of those subjective experiences is meagre already to start with.

Originally posted by doc540
So, the voluminous record of mankind's transrational (apart from "irrational") experiences don't mean much apart from their commonality?

It doesn't seem so.

Facts are not made from "many" observations alone. For example, there are thousands of people who testify that Uri Geller actually bends spoons without using any force or what-not. But a thousand such stories can't outweigh a single demonstration under controlled conditions. Trouble is, Geller hasn't been able to bend a single spoon under controlled conditions.

If you have one or a billion observations lacking substance makes no difference. The problem is why we should believe that they have substance, especially as the stories are portrayed to be marvellous, exciting stories, topped with a tad of mysticism. The stories as such are told to appeal to beliefs in the "transrational." People like such stories. People are awed by them. And people start believing them.

Being critical about the contents is often the wrong behaviour: you spoil a good story, you spoil the magic, and besides, the stories were never intended to be taken apart and analyzed. Who prefers a simple, rational explanation to myths, and magic, transrational, exciting beliefs?

Another example: in medieval times "trivial" forms of epidemic diseases like virus infections were very dangerous. It was theorized that the cause of such outbreaks, observed by the millions of course, was of astrological nature. The position of the Moon and the planets played a role, so that people were under the influenza (Italian) of the heavenly bodies. Today nobody believes that anymore, but the disease is still called the flu.

One notes, however, that the very thought that planets had something to do with it was a great leap forward for mankind, because the idea that it was a curse from the gods had been abandoned in favour of a plain cause/effect idea. The intellectual stability wasn't high though, because much later than that it has been thought that the flu is caused by witchcraft.

Originally posted by doc540
Every vision, epiphany, every experience of "the other" by every human being from every spiritual discipline from the absurd to the sublime throughout recorded history though highly subjective "doesn't mean much" in your opinion?

I'm a professional Doubting Thomas, I'm afraid. As such I ask for explanation and understanding, I ask "why" and "how." I too believe things, but faith is another issue. Belief can be rational, there are reasons to believe certain things. But faith means that you must accept something without asking "why" and "how," it explicitly asks critical analysis to be abandoned. That usually blocks explanation, understanding and progress, also where there currently is none. Although his is not a "spiritual discipline," Geller works just like that: the why and how questions are not to be asked, we are just supposed to be awed.

Originally posted by doc540
To give little meaning to them all including Senna's and dismiss them as simply "dependent on beliefs, emotions and imagination" relagates them to nothing more than conditioned, self-induced illusions.

Is there a better and more substantial explanation? After all, conditioned, self-induced illusions are common and well-known phenomena.

That said, part of what's in Senna's own description of the Monaco event is also rather plain: he essentially says that he was one with the car. There is no need to interpret that as a "higher union" of man and car; it is sufficient to interpret this as the car responding perfectly to Senna's intentions and expectations, that there were no glitches to overcome, no manhandling required, no setup problems to fight, just a perfectly responsive car causing him no trouble but offering him full freedom of driving action. But the story is blown up and is padded with a bit of mysticism. Useful, of course, to project an image of the "magic" Senna.

Maybe he even perceived it as magic? I'm pretty confident though that the laws of physics didn't take a break that day in Monaco. There just aren't any reasons to believe that. And certainly Senna saying it felt like magic is nothing more than that. It felt magic. So what? That's not a convincing reason to believe in magic, is it?

Originally posted by doc540
That's entirely possible, but I'm not the man to pooh-pooh for instance the experiences of every saint and martyr that's ever claimed them to be valid.

I don't doubt that such experiences had a strong personal impact for those who had them, but stories are stories.

[SeanValen]

Senna was a interesting person, here's a driver who's one of the best of them, at the same time, his views on things kept you tuned in, those religious experiences, just open up a whole different type of element of driving and thinking, like watching a film and Senna was one of the mains stars, fasinating.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by VAR1016

As for 1988 ,was it the "mystical experience" that caused him to drive into the wall at Monaco and subsequently run away and hide in his flat?


PdeRL

[doc540]

hmmmmmmm...."DOHC"

Might the "D" and the "H" represent "David" and "Hume"?

;)



Thanks for the discussion.

[DOHC]

...just maybe! But I'm not of that caliber!