81 replies to this topic

[arcsine]

One of the concerns expressed about the new 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 points system is that it significantly increases the possibility of winning the championship without winning a single race that year. A concern shared in other championships which have also switched to this new points system - indeed at this time Richard Burns leads the World Rally Championship without having won a single rally this year whilst defending WRC champion Markus Grönholm (3 rallies won so far in 2003) is 3rd in the points.

If someone won the F1 championship without winning a race it would be an F1 first (Rosberg came close in 1982 with just 1 win) but not unprecedented in motorsport history.

Two examples of champions taking the title without winning came in 1999:

(1) The 125cc motorcycling world championship was won that year by Spaniard Emilio Alzamora whose highest race finish that year was 2nd. He saw off Honda team-mates Masao Azuma and Marco Melandri who win 5 races each.

(2) Oriol Servia won the 1999 Indy Lights title without finishing higher than 2nd either. 2nd in the championship that year was Casey Mears who didn't win either or so much as lead a lap. Philipp Peter won 3 of the season's 12 races but couldn't match the consistency of Servia or Mears.

In both of the above championships points systems were used (disregarding bonus points for pole etc) which awarded to the second place finisher in a given race 80% of the points awarded to the winner. As is the case in F1 now. Indy Lights (which ceased to exist after 2001) uses CART's current 20-16-14-12-10-etc etc points system. MotoGP/250cc/125cc award points to 15th place (25-20-16-13-11-10 etc etc).

The two examples outlined above are surely not the only examples of drivers/riders winning titles without winning races - does anyone know of any others?

[ensign14]

Couple from USAC: Tony Bettenhausen in 1958 and Tom Sneva in, ooh, about 1978. Think Ted Horn did it as well in 1946.

[Disco Stu]

Not only did Ted Horn not win a race in his 1946 title season, he had never won a Champ Car race in his career at that point. His first race win came in 1947.

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by ensign14
Couple from USAC: Tony Bettenhausen in 1958 and Tom Sneva in, ooh, about 1978.

  Sneva won back-to-back championships in 1977 and 1978. In '77 he scored two wins to Johnny Rutherford's four in a similar car (McLaren M24-Cosworth). In 1978, Sneva won the title with no race wins. His young teamate, Rick Mears, scored three victories. Penske rewarded Sneva by firing him - he expected his drivers to win races.

[uechtel]

West German Formual 2 Championship 1953:

4 races counting towards championship (Eifelrennen, Avus, German GP, Schauinsland Hillclimb)
Points score 6 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1

1. Helfrich 4 - 4 - 4 - 2 = 14
2. Herrmann - - 3 - 6 - 4 = 13
3. Seidel 3 - 2 - 3 - - = 8
4. Adolff 6 - - - - - - = 6
5. Klenk - - 6 - - - - = 6
6. Stuck - - - - - - 6 = 6

[Hans Etzrodt]

Without winning a single event, Ferdinando Minoia (Alfa Romeo) became European Champion of 1931, narrowly beating his teammate Campari, who had won one event out of the possible four 10-hour GP races counting towards the 1931 European Championship for drivers.

[Ray Bell]

I may stand corrected, but the year John Leffler won the Australian Gold Star I think he was without a win.

And he hadn't won a Gold Star race prior to that either, IIRC... did he ever win one?

Always a problem when I'm away from my magazines...

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Without winning a single event, Ferdinando Minoia (Alfa Romeo) became European Champion of 1931, narrowly beating his teammate Campari, who had won one event out of the possible four 10-hour GP races counting towards the 1931 European Championship for drivers.

Hans, did I miss something? I can find only three ten-hour races in 1931: Italy, France and Belgium. Which has been the fourth one?

[No27]

The accountants victory:

Greg Lemond winning the 1991 Tour de France without a single ettapewin.


O, is that a different sport ;)

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by uechtel
...I can find only three ten-hour races in 1931: Italy, France and Belgium. Which has been the fourth one?

Yes, You are of course correct. The Spanish event was dropped.

[BRG]

Originally posted by No27
The accountants victory: Greg Lemond winning the 1991 Tour de France without a single ettape win.

It is a different sport - remember that the T de F field is 20 (or thereabouts) teams of 9 riders each - so you are looking at 180 riders all keen to net one of the stage wins. And as they are all on pretty well equal machines, it comes down to the human being on the bike. Now you can flog yourself to win a stage but there may be nothing left in the tank for the next coupleof days and to win the Tour, you need to up in the leading group every day.

Lemond used his head and his team better than his opponents to win outright in 1991. Wearing the race leader's yellow jersey in worth far more to riders than any stage win. And Greg did take the very best stage win of all on the Tour in another year (was it 1990 or 1992 - can't recall) when he won that final time trial onto the Champs Elysee, snatching the race lead and overall victory from out of Laurent Fignon's grasp. That ride alone guaranteed him a place in Tour history.

There is more to winning championships than just winning races. If driver A were to win six races out of a series of 12, but crashed out of all the rest, whilst driver B came second in all 12 races, and no-one else won more than one race, who would you think should be champion? Driver A on 60 points? Or driver B on 96 points? Who is the more worthy champion? It is perhaps a matter of preference, but there is a case both for wins and for consistency. As even Rosberg managed one win in his WDC year, the various F1 points systems seemed to have given us a fair balance between the two qualities over the years.

[Tim Murray]

Let's get things straight here. Lemond won the Tour in 1986, 1989 (when he snatched the win from Fignon) and 1990. Miguel Indurain won 1991 - 1995.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by arcsine

The two examples outlined above are surely not the only examples of drivers/riders winning titles without winning races - does anyone know of any others? [/B]

Elliott Forbes-Robinson in Grand Am a couple of years back, IIRC.
(I remember Elliott when he raced FFords over this side of the pond in the 70s!)

pete

[John B]

This was something that could have happened in NASCAR a few years back, and several times a driver like Terry Labonte won with 2 or 3 wins versus someone who had double figures (Elliott, Gordon). I think it's less likely now that so many teams win races each year (19 in 2002). However, Martin came very close and he only had one win, and that was largely due to Jimmy Johnson blowing his last pit stop.

I think David Empringham had one win when he took the Atlantic title in 1993 from the powerhouse Jacques Villeneuve/Claude Bourbonnais Player's pairing, but I could be wrong....

[John B]

This is a farce, but it answers the question. Scott Sharp was co-champ of the IRL's first "season" along with Buzz Calkins -- a season that was 3 races long and cuminated with the Indy 500.

Ironically, he won the first race of the 'next' year, at New Hampshire; after this race they went to a calendar year, normal season.

[esorniloc]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Elliott Forbes-Robinson in Grand Am a couple of years back, IIRC.

I think it was the 99 ALMS series he won without winning. BMW won most races that year, but didn't do all events for some reason. Panoz also won a few.

In fact EFR has never won an ALMS series race, nor has his team of 1999, Dyson Racing.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by esorniloc


I think it was the 99 ALMS series he won without winning. BMW won most races that year, but didn't do all events for some reason. Panoz also won a few.

In fact EFR has never won an ALMS series race, nor has his team of 1999, Dyson Racing.

Cheers for the correction.

pete

[fines]

Bruno Holzer and Werner Schwärzel in side-car racing 1979 and '82.

[fines]

Originally posted by Disco Stu
Not only did Ted Horn not win a race in his 1946 title season, he had never won a Champ Car race in his career at that point. His first race win came in 1947.

That's not quite (=entirely) right, Horn won several Champ Car races between 1938 and 1946, but no championship events. Also, the 1946 AAA National Championship was composed of Champ Car and Sprint Car races, and Horn won a few of the latter. It's just that AAA/USAC/CART revisionist historians don't want to let us know...

[mikedeering]

Regarding Rosberg in 1982 - no other driver won more than twice that season, so there was no one else who stood out clearly as a more deserving WDC, aside perhaps from Pironi.

Hawthorn won once in 1958 and took the title, when runner-up Stirling Moss took 4 wins. Moss arguably could feel somewhat let down by the points system.

As for LeMond's TdF victory in 1990 - don't get me started on that one!

[wildman]

Ben Bostrom in AMA Superbike in 1998. Like Ted Horn, he didn't get his first win until the season after he won the championship.

Amazingly, the rider who came second to Bostrom in the '98 title chase, Doug Chandler, also went winless that year.

[Frank S]

Originally posted by petefenelon

(I remember Elliott when he raced FFords over this side of the pond in the 70s!)

I remember EFRJr from the 60s, at Srs elbow, Riverside Turn Four, barely able to see over the snow fence, but intent on absorbing Sr's explanation of what the drivers (and the marshals!) were up to in that critical spot.

Frank S

[esorniloc]

We could turn this around and ask the oposite question "has there ever been a year/series where someone won by far the most races and didn't win the title?"

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by esorniloc
We could turn this around and ask the oposite question "has there ever been a year/series where someone won by far the most races and didn't win the title?"

That was already addressed, looking from the reverse direction...

Moss in 1958.

[wildman]

Originally posted by esorniloc
We could turn this around and ask the oposite question "has there ever been a year/series where someone won by far the most races and didn't win the title?"

This has almost certainly happened several times in NASCAR, with its questionable points system that rewards consistency (or even just showing up) over finishing position. The one that comes immediately to mind is 1992, when Davey Allison and Bill Elliott won five races apiece, while champ Alan Kulwicki won just once.

[Henri Greuter]

esorniloc wrote

We could turn this around and ask the oposite question "has there ever been a year/series where someone won by far the most races and didn't win the title?"


Iapart from Moss; right out the top of my head: In more recent times: Andretti '77, Prost '84, Piquet '87


Henri Greuter

[Henri Greuter]

I fooled up!

esorniloc wrote

We could turn this around and ask the oposite question "has there ever been a year/series where someone won by far the most races and didn't win the title?"


Iapart from Moss; right out the top of my head: In more recent times: Andretti '77, Prost '84, Piquet '87


Henri Greuter


Must correct myself: Piquet became champion in '87 despite Mansell winning more races of course! Sorry.

Henri Greuter

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by esorniloc
We could turn this around and ask the oposite question "has there ever been a year/series where someone won by far the most races and didn't win the title?"

See why I restricted it to Moss?

Four wins to one of Hawthorn's... nobody's been near that have they?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

In NASCAR, in 1996, Jeff Gordon won 10 races, but lost to his teammate Terry Labonte, who won just 2 races. One of the more farcial major championship results in recent history.

[fines]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
See why I restricted it to Moss?

Four wins to one of Hawthorn's... nobody's been near that have they?

1965 USAC Championship: Foyt wins five, Andretti one... yet Andretti's is the championship!

[Ray Bell]

Henri was sticking to WDC results... and my post had originally been about the same...

[fines]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Henri was sticking to WDC results... and my post had originally been about the same...

Then what about 1967, Clark vs. Hulme, four to two? And it could easily have been five to two without altering the outcome: e. g. Monza, or if the Spanish GP had been included...

[Ray Bell]

And how many did Jack win?

I'm happy with my view that Mossy had the worst points thrashing for a multiple winner in any given season. Particularly when the question posed included the words 'by far the most wins'...

[esorniloc]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
And how many did Jack win?

In 1967, Jack Brabham won 2 races, French and Canadian GP's.

[arcsine]

Another to add to the list: Andrew Pitt won the 2001 World Supersport championship on a Kawasaki without winning a single race that year.

[D-Type]

Although not a championship, there is Fangio's drive in the 1954 Carrera Panamericana when he didn't win any of the 8 daily stages, but won overall.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by D-Type
Although not a championship, there is Fangio's drive in the 1954 Carrera Panamericana when he didn't win any of the 8 daily stages, but won overall.

Herschel McGriff achieved exactly the same in Carrera Panamerica I in 1950

Henri Greuter

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by mikedeering
Hawthorn won once in 1958 and took the title, when runner-up Stirling Moss took 4 wins. Moss arguably could feel somewhat let down by the points system.

With the very greatest and sincerest respect to JMH, this was the year when the concept of world champion became significantly devalued.

[Vicuna]

When I saw this title, my mind immediately turned to Ensign's superb...'The farmer smiled...'

Forza Ensign

[subh]

Going back to motorcycle racing - in 2003, two of the European Champions scored six second place results from eight races, but no wins:

In the 125cc class, Mattia Angeloni - five points ahead of four-time winner Dario Giuseppetti.

In the Supersport class, Matteo Baiocco - 19 points ahead of three-time winner Phillipp Hafeneger.

In both cases the Italian rider beat the German rider (even if three of these names sound Italian).

[René de Boer]

My former boss, Opel's motor sport director Volker Strycek, became the inaugural DTM champion in 1984, driving a BMW 635 CSi, in spite of failing to win one single race. Back then, when the series was called "Deutsche Produktionswagen-Meisterschaft", there was a complicated handicap system that allowed cars as different as Opel Kadett, Fiat Ritmo, Rover Vitesse, BMW 635 CSi, Toyota Supra and Chevrolet Camaro to race in the same event. Harald Grohs scored the most wins that year (four out of 12 rounds), but consistency paid off for Strycek.

[Simpson RX1]

Isn't this a tough subject?

On the one hand, the old racing axiom of "To finish first, you must first finish" proves the value of a straight forward points for places system................Rosberg winning 1 race in '82 makes the point perfectly (IIRC this was also the alltime lowest score for a WDC in the modern era), so his consistency makes him champion, but then consistency also involves reliability, so is he consistent by being the best driver, or by having the best prepared car?

Back in '58, Hawthorn loses the winning stakes 4-1 to Moss, but takes the championship; but then you could score points for being the fastest, so pure skill on the day becomes a factor along with preparation.

In some championships I believe you can score points for leading the most laps, or winning the paddock concourse.

In the end, is there any system that truely shows who was the best?

From any year and any era, we will all have favourite winners and losers, the record books will prove the statistics, our memories will tell a different story; that's why we all love motor-racing......

[Macca]

If Moss hadn't misunderstood his pit signal when he had thought he had the FL, he would have beaten Hawthorn by one point.....................



Paul M

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Simpson RX1
In the end, is there any system that truely shows who was the best?

Wouldn't that be the AQUA system that this forum came up with? You only get a point for winning.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by esorniloc
We could turn this around and ask the oposite question "has there ever been a year/series where someone won by far the most races and didn't win the title?"

NASCAR Convertible Division, 1956. Curtis Turner gets 22 wins out of 47 races but not the title. The title goes to Bob Welborn, who got 3 wins.

If anything expresses the futility of points systems, or indeed Championships, it's that.

[roger ellis]

IMHO the only fair championship system would copy the Olympic game results table ie Gold for a win, Silver for a second place & Bronze for a third.

One Gold beats any number of silvers etc. & so whoever has most wins is the Champion.

This system would also alleviate the problem of de-motivated drivers settling for a lower position during a race to bag a few points for "the championship"

Championships ruin good racing.

[Gregg]

The 1971 USAC Dirt Car Championship (Now Silver Crown) was won by George Snider. George never took home a victory that year. This was the first year USAC had different divisions for Championship Dirt Cars traditional Oval racing Champ Cars and Champ cars on road courses.

[Gregg]

Originally posted by fines

That's not quite (=entirely) right, Horn won several Champ Car races between 1938 and 1946, but no championship events. Also, the 1946 AAA National Championship was composed of Champ Car and Sprint Car races, and Horn won a few of the latter. It's just that AAA/USAC/CART revisionist historians don't want to let us know...

You are correct, sir. People should look at Ted Horns racing record in 1948 in sprint cars and Indy Cars. He had a winning percentge that year that rivaled any driver in any given year. Horn was a legend, period, and I don't care what a certain writer in Autoweek thinks.

[HDonaldCapps]

People should look at Ted Horns racing record in 1948 in sprint cars and Indy Cars. He had a winning percentge that year that rivaled any driver in any given year. Horn was a legend, period, and I don't care what a certain writer in Autoweek thinks.

Since I don't read Autoweek, what was the problem a "certain writer" had with Horn? A great and very talented driver whose death truly left a void in racing.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Gregg
The 1971 USAC Dirt Car Championship (Now Silver Crown) was won by George Snider. George never took home a victory that year. This was the first year USAC had different divisions for Championship Dirt Cars traditional Oval racing Champ Cars and Champ cars on road courses.

Well, yes, but keep in mind there were only 4 races in that inuagural Silver Crown season of 1971. Exactly 3 more than the USAC Road Racing division had that year (or for that matter, in it's entire history).