33 replies to this topic

[Marz]

It seems as though to guarantee reliability that Jaguar is detuning the car quite alot for the race. I suppose it is most obvious in Webbers case where he usually qualifies almost on pace with the front runners and with the same number of stops, but cannot keep that pace during the race.

Canada seemed to be a clear example, so did monaco, brazil, imola. I think in terms of engine power Jaguar is only behind BMW and ferrari, and once they improve reliability to equal the evident speed they should be a very competitive car. It will be interesting to see as the year goes on.

What's everyone else's opinion?

[Marz]

I think monza will be the race where we can finally gauge engine power between the teams. I suspect ferrari and williams will be the front runners there, If Mclaren have the Mp4-18, which they should, then they will probably be close. But Jaguar will be the only other team that could hope to keep pace, where the other teams will be far behind. It will be interesting to see.

[smithy]

How can they detune the car for the race only? They don't get to touch the car after qualifying in which case the engine is detuned there as well.

I agree that the pace in qualifying has not translated into race pace. Maybe Webber's driving deliberately conservatively to get it to the end. For example:

Brazil: Crashed trying to push on a drying track with worn tyres (maybe that explains a lot)
Austria: I recall comments from MW about driving conservatively until toward the end when he "wanted to see what could be done with a stable car"
Canada: He is quoted as saying he backed way off to conserve the brakes.

I'm not sure the engine is detuned any more than any of the other teams. MW DNF's have been due to suspension failure, crash, fuel pickup and engine air leak (not a detuning issue). It's the rest of the rolling chassis that's causing problems (although getting better), not the engine.

[logic]

Originally posted by smithy
How can they detune the car for the race only? They don't get to touch the car after qualifying in which case the engine is detuned there as well.

They can touch the cars. How could they get it in the starting grid? They also put wires from car to laptop in starting grid, and can easily detune it! Drivers can also use they steering wheel.

[Pilla]

I think the driver can detune it by simply reducing the amount of revs required for the automatic gear box to change gears, could even be an option on the stearing wheel. Drivers frequently do it when the race is in its closing stages and they have a clear lead.

[smithy]

Originally posted by logic

They can touch the cars. How could they get it in the starting grid?

OK....... I should have said: "I didn't think they were allowed to change anything on the car after qualifying."

This is of course unless they decide they want to start from pit lane.

[100cc]

Originally posted by smithy


OK....... I should have said: "I didn't think they were allowed to change anything on the car after qualifying."

This is of course unless they decide they want to start from pit lane.

That doesn't change the fact that drivers can still detune their cars by making the shifts happen earlier, running a different fuel mixture, and more.... all through the controls on their steering wheel.

[Marz]

They are good points smithy, although I think there are settings a driver can adjust while driving e.g. brake balance, revs, engine map settings for fuel consumption. It is more likely a chassis problem, but it does not explain the quite large drop off in pace. The point you made about deliberately holding back could be very likely. It seems the Jaguar is most competitive on moderately aero circuits with large elevation changes and uphil climbs such as brazil, imola, austria, belgium and suzuka. It will be interesting to see its performance at these circuits, hopefully spa will be reinstated.

[Bex37]

I'm with Smithy on that one. I think its also to do with setup. You can set up a car to do a quicker single lap, knowing that its going to be hard on tyres, which means you have to do slower race lap times so you don't destroy your tyres before the pitstop. I don't think Webber is doing that consciously; he had some good race pace in Austria where he got a 3rd place in Friday qualifying (only to muck up the Sat qualifying lap). The key is to design a car that can do quick laps for long periods on varying types of circuits in varying conditions and look after its tyres in all these situations. Not an easy task.

[Marz]

Nurburgring is that type of circuit also. The Jaguar got its best qualifying positions in Brazil, Imola, made a mistake in Austria but would have been in top five otherwise I suspect. Im hoping they will be very competitive at the Nurburgring.

[Marz]

Very true bex, this could be perhaps where Jaguar is lacking. Something they can improve on for next year definitely. It would be great to see Jaguar, Renault, Toyota and Honda finally get competitive with the top teams. Although I think Renault particularly, and Jaguar might be able to get alot closer next year.

[boost]

During Canada qualif hes top speed down the straight was very low compared to Ferrari/Williams.. so not sure if they are detuning a lot.

[Marz]

I think the Jaguar had alot more wing than Ferrari to compensate for handling. Ferrari still handled very well with very low wing.

[Superman]

originally posted by Marz

this could be perhaps where Jaguar is lacking. Something they can improve on for next year definitely. It would be great to see Jaguar, Renault, Toyota and Honda finally get competitive with the top teams. Although I think Renault particularly, and Jaguar might be able to get alot closer next year.

If you are Jaguar fan, i don't think you should high hope, it going to take them another year or two before they can challenge from race win. First they got to prove to Ford that Jagaur team is no longer a joke in F1 paddock if they can prove that they should get bigger budget next year.

[smithy]

Originally posted by Superman


If you are Jaguar fan, i don't think you should high hope, it going to take them another year or two before they can challenge from race win. First they got to prove to Ford that Jagaur team is no longer a joke in F1 paddock if they can prove that they should get bigger budget next year.

Absolutely.

I'll never forget an article on Ford which documented a discussion between Jac Nasser and the latest Ford family chairman.

"Jac, who is the highest paid employee in this company?"

Jac thinks for a couple of seconds: "I guess it's me."

"Wrong. Some person named E. Irvine. Who the hell is he?"



Until F1 gets the focus it needs fom the top brass it's not going to go anywhere fast. I'd like to think it's getting better though.

[Melbourne Park]

Have a look at pictures of the steering wheels. Most even have a "pass" button, which runs the most powerfull engine setup, but can't be run for long. The driver also has other engine control options operated from his steering wheel. Concerning Webbers pole runs, he does seem to be able to drive an excellant one off lap straight away, which is a bit unusual. A couple of times he's commented after a pole run that he could not have positioned the car better for the whole run. Normally there's a significant number of small sub optimals going on. So I think he's good a good pole runner, within the constraint of his car setup, which might not be as fast as some others. Until he gets a better opposite driver, we'll have to wait on ultimately how fast he is, and which tracks suit his style best.

[ffiloseta]

My thoughts:

Jaguar still sucks big time!

It's only Webber that's making them look good. I think Pizzonia is a proper measure of Jag's performance.

As a matter of fact, I am certain that Webber is the real revelation. More than Alonso or Kimi. Of course, only time will tell.

[Marz]

Pizzonia's lack of pace has been very confusing, especially since he was so well regarded by frank williams. There are two conclusions:

1. Pizzonia is just not made for F1 and the Jaguar is a good car

2. Webber is brilliant and the Jaguar is only as good as a Sauber.

[Pilla]

Originally posted by ffiloseta
My thoughts:

Jaguar still sucks big time!

It's only Webber that's making them look good. I think Pizzonia is a proper measure of Jag's performance.

As a matter of fact, I am certain that Webber is the real revelation. More than Alonso or Kimi. Of course, only time will tell.

The constraint of the car should be measured from the faster driver not the slower one, it is imposible for one driver to be so good that he drives above the limits of the car. Because that is just what limits are, a point that if passed a driver looses control of the car entirely, different drivers have different limits within the car, but no drivers limits are above the maximum capacity of the car itself. It is flawed logic to think of a car as bad because the slowest driver is not as fast as his team mate.

[100cc]

Originally posted by Pilla


Because that is just what limits are, a point that if passed a driver looses control of the car entirely

you can easily go over the "limit" without losing control of the car.

[Pilla]

Originally posted by 100cc

you can easily go over the "limit" without losing control of the car.

The definition of a limit (from dictionary.com) is:

The point, edge, or line beyond which something cannot or may not proceed.

Therefore you can not go beyond the cars limits (and keep control) its imposible, you can however go close to the cars limits. A good drivers limits is as close to that of the cars as is posible. I think people are miss defining limits.

[Marz]

It takes ultimate skill to get to the absolute limit of a car. The only way we would know who is the best driver is if the all had a minardi.

[zengiman]

Originally posted by ffiloseta
My thoughts:

Jaguar still sucks big time!

It's only Webber that's making them look good. I think Pizzonia is a proper measure of Jag's performance.

As a matter of fact, I am certain that Webber is the real revelation. More than Alonso or Kimi. Of course, only time will tell.

I'm with you on this one. Mark Webber = Alan Jones.

[Bex37]

Originally posted by Marz
I think the Jaguar had alot more wing than Ferrari to compensate for handling. Ferrari still handled very well with very low wing.

Your comment prompted me to check out the speed trap for the Jaguar

The only cars that were slower than the jags in the speed trap during the race was Firman. Even the Minardis were quicker!

Firman 326.4 km/hr
Pizzonia 329.2
Webber 331.0

Jag were either running a lot of wing or the power of the Cosworth is less than everyone thinks.

Makes me think about Barcelona where Jag's race pace didn't seem too impressive either. Another circuit where high speeds are required, although more wing is usually needed and handling/balance is a bit more important compared with Montreal. Food for thought.

[Marz]

You just answered yourself. If the CR5 Jags were only marginally faster than the CR3 and CR4 Minardis and Jordans then Jaguar must've been running alot of wing. I would say that Jaguar is about even with Mercedes on power, but had to put alot more wing on to make the car handle decently, and give it some balance.

[Bex37]

Originally posted by Marz
Pizzonia's lack of pace has been very confusing, especially since he was so well regarded by frank williams. There are two conclusions:

1. Pizzonia is just not made for F1 and the Jaguar is a good car

2. Webber is brilliant and the Jaguar is only as good as a Sauber.

3. The handling characteristics of the Jaguar suit Webber better than they suit Pizzonia
4. Pizzonia is just not as well equipped to communicate his needs to his engineers as Webber.
5. Pizzonia's engineers aren't as good as Webber's.

I would like to know how many drivers Webber is going to have to slaughter before people stop saying they want to see him drive against a decent team mate.

[kanec]

Webber was keeping a good pace in the first 2 sectors. The final sector however he was way off (around a second from memory).

That's were the big straight is with the speed trap. So more drag or an ill handling car coming out of the hairpin?

[clef]

Originally posted by kanec
Webber was keeping a good pace in the first 2 sectors. The final sector however he was way off (around a second from memory).

That's were the big straight is with the speed trap. So more drag or an ill handling car coming out of the hairpin?

On the Jaguar site he says:

“Our top speeds were quite encouraging but it was hard to maintain the pace through the third sector,” added Webber after the race

I will have further insights from Webber when i read his GP diary tomorrow in Australaisian Motorsport News ..

[FordFan]

kanec has is right. Webber had the 2nd quickest first sector in qualifying, the fourth quickest second sector, and the eighth quickest third, which was where the speed trap was. They definately had a lot of wing.

That said, I think Jag did take a more conservative approach to this race, as both cars were out of Monaco early. They said reliability was their focus, so I think they were less concerned about outright pace for the race. That in mind, they got 7th place completely on merit, which is an improvement to say the least.

There's no doubt the car is quick. Webber was on the pace and strategy of Barichello at Monaco, and while I don't think RB is the cat's meow, surely the Jag has to be pretty good to keep up with the 2003-GA.

[Carsten]

Originally posted by Bex37

I would like to know how many drivers Webber is going to have to slaughter before people stop saying they want to see him drive against a decent team mate.

C'mon Bex. How many drivers does Michael Schumacher have to slaughter before people stop saying they want to see him drive against a decent team mate?

It is never going to stop.

[kanec]

Originally posted by clef

I will have further insights from Webber when i read his GP diary tomorrow in Australaisian Motorsport News ..

Excellent. Any chance of posting a summary?

Originally posted by FordFanThat said, I think Jag did take a more conservative approach to this race.

I agree. I also wonder if they went more in a setup direction chancing a little rain?

[ffiloseta]

If the Jag had to run a lot of wing, its because its mechanic grip (suspension) sucks. To me, that's the trickier part of the equation. Of course, you could go for a 1200Hp engine and rely solely on wings...

[MortenF1]

Like many've said before me, I think it's got to do with them runnig a couple of steps more rear wing.
And yeah, Webber has gone for the same strategy as the top dogs, but his first stint has been a few laps shorter some times, so he has been a bit lighter. I'm not trying to belittle his efforts, I think the man is a very very good driver!

I think Toyota want to be regarded as one of the best engines on the grid, and there may very well be something in it. I think that while Ferrari and BMW still are a little step better than the others, Jaguar, Toyota and Illmor Mercedes is of similar performance...(?)

[Bex37]

Originally posted by Carsten


C'mon Bex. How many drivers does Michael Schumacher have to slaughter before people stop saying they want to see him drive against a decent team mate?

It is never going to stop.

Right you are, Carsten.