78 replies to this topic

[Ralliart]

Don't know if anyone else caught it yesterday but one of the TV commentators (Larry ????) covering the NASCAR Brooklyn 400 said, talking about a recent poll somewhere having to do with the world's greatest drivers, said, "Those guys out THERE are the world's greatest drivers!" Everybody's entitled to there opinion but...

[Flying Panda]

I belive he was reffering to this poll
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=58031

and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that those guys really are the worlds greatest drivers.

I mean, you cant compare Mark Martin to Colin McRae.
And you cant compare Sam Hornish Jr. to Tom Kristensen.
same goes with Mika Hakkinen and Jim Richards.

[EnzoHonda]

To me, the "World's Greatest Driver" seems to be anyone who took part in the last race I watched.

Eg:
After the Acropolis rally, Martin and Sainz were the best.
After Le Mans, Kristensen and Herbert were the best.
After the Canadian GP, Schumacher and Alonso were the best.
After the CART race... Schumacher and Alonso were the best. (just kidding, the CART boys all did good, woohoo for Canada!)

If I watched NASCAR, I'm sure I'd think they were the best as well. Why would anyone watch a racing series if they thought the drivers were mediocre?

[BRG]

Just because a driver has chosen to pursue a career path of driving in circles in a technically rather basic stock-car, rather than goign for the Holy Grail of F1, doesn't mean that he isn't a great driver. I think Jeff Gordon demonstrated that rather well at Indy the other day....

[mclarensmps]

Nah, the only thing that gets to me about these guys is that USA is the "world"

[Locai]

Well,

I wouldn't put much credibility in what Larry McReynolds says about who's the "Greatest".

A couple of things to keep in mind:

Sebastian Bourdais won his first oval race. I highly doubt that a NASCAR rookie who has only ever raced on ovals could win his first race on a road course.

Larry himself said during the "Tradin' Paint" program that you can go up and down the pit lane at a NASCAR track on Sunday morning and see the crews watching the F1 races. I somehow doubt that the same could be said of the F1 crews.

That's not to say that all F1 drivers are great and all NASCAR drivers are hacks. There's a handful of really good to great drivers in each series.


Quite honestly, I just watched the MotoGP race from Barcelona yesterday and the job that Rossi did just to finish second was beyond belief! I'd have to put him right up near the top.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by The Big Guns
Nah, the only thing that gets to me about these guys is that USA is the "world"

Much like F1 fans think that Europe is the "world"

Originally posted by Locai
Quite honestly, I just watched the MotoGP race from Barcelona yesterday and the job that Rossi did just to finish second was beyond belief! I'd have to put him right up near the top.

What if we put Rossi in an Indycar, Schumacher in a NASCAR or Kurt Busch in a F1 car.....

what evidence is there to suggest that they'd still be winning?
being great in one category is guarantee of sucess in another. And being rear of grid in one category is no guarantee of being rear of grid in another.

Look at Jan Magnussen..... often horrific results in Open Wheel raears.... but a supreme Prototype racer.
and Gabriele Tarquini failed to qualfiy for 40 F1 events, yet he was an awesome Tourning ar driver.

[Ross Stonefeld]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flying Panda
Much like F1 fans think that Europe is the "world" [/QUOTE]

Forgotten about your Malaysian boyfriend allready?

Look at Jan Magnussen..... often horrific results in Open Wheel raears.... but a supreme Prototype racer.
and Gabriele Tarquini failed to qualfiy for 40 F1 events, yet he was an awesome Tourning ar driver. [/QUOTE]

Compare the equipment in OW v Sportscars for both drivers and re-evaluate.

[Jordan191]

well if you analyze what he said he did make one very valid point.

NASCAR runs longer races and a lomger schedule. ( 400-600 mile races , up to 40 events a year )

Now having said that and without getting into this whole NASCAR this and F1 that argument I'd venture to say that NASCAR drivers are damm fine racing car drivers and the fact that they do it so long may very will make them the best. At the end of the day it's an opinion thing.

I applaud ol DW for supporting ' his' series . He's had a lot of good things to say about F1 and seems very knowedgable.

[wawawa]

Originally posted by Jordan191
well if you analyze what he said he did make one very valid point.

NASCAR runs longer races and a lomger schedule. ( 400-600 mile races , up to 40 events a year )

Out of curiosity, do they test anything like as much as F1 drivers do? I remember reading a quote somewhere by MS (in '97 I think) saying that the race weekends make a pleasant break from testing

[troyf1]

It all gets down to opinion and personal perspective. There are alot of people out there that think Rally drivers are the best drivers in the world. Part of me would be inclined to agree with that considering the speeds they drive at and the conditions they drive in.

[Pioneer]

No, NASCAR very severly restricts testing. In addition to that, there are currently 36 races in a season and several non-points race weekends as well. They only have 2 weekends off between early February and mid November.... Easter and Mother's Day.

[SpeakerGuru]

I don't claim to know who is the "greatest" - they're all pretty damn good.

However, try to imagine how good you have to be to handle a heavy "stock" car on a track like Daytona or Talladega during a restrictor-plate race before dismissing the NASCAR guys. The aerodynamic forces created by the huge packs of cars moving at 190 MPH are fantastic. Then factor in the notion that each driver is dicing with 42 others, usually within inches of themselves. Not easy to do at all.

I just thought I'd throw that out there before the NASCAR bashers hit - they invevetably will anyway.

I can't see how any series can claim that it's drivers, as a collective group, are "the best". There are guys who are truly great to that can be found everywhere - WRC, F1, NASCAR, etc.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Pioneer
No, NASCAR very severly restricts testing. In addition to that, there are currently 36 races in a season and several non-points race weekends as well. They only have 2 weekends off between early February and mid November.... Easter and Mother's Day.

Actually thats only true for NASCAR tracks. You can test at non-winston cup venues as much as you can afford, and they do.

[GBarclay]

Just to clarify a few points

The debate to which this discussion refers took place on Dave Despain's (sp?) show "WindTunnel" on Speed TV. A call in show aimed at the casual and serious race fan.

Daryyl "boogity boogity" Waltrip made the comment during Sunday's Nascar race that he believes NASCAR drivers are the best in the world, mainly due to the number of races they compete in, and the length of the races.

I watched portions of both programs, and as soon as Despain asked the question - basically "which series has the best drivers in the world?" - my reply was the drivers in the WRC. But, I found it hard to argue with Despain's reasoning and logic. He is a bike nut, so he chose the Euro version of driver to include drivers and riders, ie. both bikes and cars

His criteria included the following

Type of vehicle - cars vs bikes, 4 wheels vs two, inherant stability in a car vs inherant instability in a bike.
Type of circuit - cars race on known tracks, basically all asphalt, most well known, compared to moto-x riders who race on tracks that are different from year to year, as well as the changing surfaces, mud, gravel, sand etc.
Physical Fitness - most race car drivers are questioned as to whether they are even athletes, 45 minutes on a moto-x bike is extremely demanding. Think Jimmy Spencer could handle that?
Control of vehicle - Basically a stock car driver controls the car turning left, a road racer controls a car turning left and right, the car is on the ground all the time (well most of the time) vs a moto-x rider controls a bike turning left and right, as well as controlling the bike over bumps and jumps, often controlling the bike while in mid-air. Not even WRC cars are airborne that much.
Danger or Safety - No motorsport is 100% safe, but car racing has benefited enormously from safety advances in the last two decades, drivers sit in safety cells, HANS devices etc. Moto-x riders are often projectiles during an accident.

Dave Despain certainly put forward a well thought out and logical argument, hard to disagree. Perhaps he is a little biased towards bikes but it would be very difficult to disagree that Moto-X riders are highly skilled athletes.

My vote still goes to WRC drivers. I know NASCAR drivers race in tight packs at speeds close to 200mph only inches from a concrete wall, but WRC drivers race at high speed, certainly in excess of 200kph, on variable surfaces, only feet away from concrete walls, trees, houses, mountain edges etc.

I might go as far as saying the drivers that compete in the annual Pikes Peak "Race to the Clouds" need even more skill. They have no co-drivers (apart from the SCCA Pro-Rally special class), very few restrictions, no safety barriers and the consequence of a mistake may be a trip down 6000 feet of mountainside.

A good debate, with no definite winner.

Grant

[dosco]

Originally posted by GBarclay
My vote still goes to WRC drivers. I know NASCAR drivers race in tight packs at speeds close to 200mph only inches from a concrete wall, but WRC drivers race at high speed, certainly in excess of 200kph, on variable surfaces, only feet away from concrete walls, trees, houses, mountain edges etc.

I might go as far as saying the drivers that compete in the annual Pikes Peak "Race to the Clouds" need even more skill. They have no co-drivers (apart from the SCCA Pro-Rally special class), very few restrictions, no safety barriers and the consequence of a mistake may be a trip down 6000 feet of mountainside.

Grant

Good points......but don't forget the guys who race Isle of Man TT and Irish Road Racing....those are some insane motorcycle riders!!

[Math Soucy]

What I found interesting about Waltrip's comments during Sunday's race was his focus on two or three things that distinguishes NASCAR drivers as the best in the world. First, the distance of the races they compete in. Well, I continually read post-race and pre-race quotes, and many drivers talk about the primacy of track position and staying on the lead lap throughout the event and then "racing" the last fifty or twenty laps, depending on the circuit. So if they have more 500 mile events than any other series, how many miles are they acutally racing flat? Second, Waltrip offered the fact that they run more races than other series. True. No argument. I sympathize with NASCAR drivers and their families and it must be taxing to contstantly trek all over the country week in, week out. I don't know that this fact necessarily helps the argument that this makes them the greatest, but it is surely a test of mettle and endurance. Third, he mentioned something about more lead changes in this Michigan race alone than most series experience in an entire season. McReynolds added to that paraphrase, but the number of lead changes speaks to the nature of oval racing versus road racing, caution periods, and length of races and nothing to do with the skill of a driver.
Of course, DW is admirably holding the stock car banner, but I found it funny that his two colleauges in the booth remained silent as to their own opinions and neither affirmed nor denied his claim.

[schna]

Lets us see stats...

We have 6 billion people on earth, how much chance anywhere people join F1 or NASCAR?

Where a super driver chinese want going to? how about Russian? Indian? Chile? even Greenland? Mostly like they going to F1.
Most American will join NASCAR for sure.

Jeff Gordon was wanted test drive F1 in long time, Montoya did not.

Which means NASCAR have 280+ mill. F1 have 6 billion, ouch ;)

[Jordan191]

Originally posted by schna
Lets us see stats...

We have 6 billion people on earth, how much chance anywhere people join F1 or NASCAR?

Where a super driver chinese want going to? how about Russian? Indian? Chile? even Greenland? Mostly like they going to F1.
Most American will join NASCAR for sure.

Jeff Gordon was wanted test drive F1 in long time, Montoya did not.

Which means NASCAR have 280+ mill. F1 have 6 billion, ouch ;)

like all 6 billion people on the planet have the ambition to become F1 stars or follow F1

[Ross Stonefeld]

No but the F1 grid does draw from a larger pool

[Blind Driver]

The debate is over,

Observed Motorcycle Trials Riders are the best.

You don't have to go fast to prove your skill.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Blind Driver
The debate is over,

Observed Motorcycle Trials Riders are the best.

You don't have to go fast to prove your skill.

Yeah... I'm better than a F1 driver

Unlike Despain I differentiate between riders and drivers, but I will concede that top notch motorcross riders are the most physically fit out there. Probably better than F1. I also consider car racing to be so specialized now that there is no 'greatest' driver anymore. If you want to be an F1 driver you have to follow a specified route, rather than do just about anything and everything.

To an extent, bike racing is applicable to other catergories. Dirt Track riders and kids that did motorcross could end up road racing. I think the skills are probably more transferable.

[Enamuser]

Indeed if we assume talent is somewhat equally distributed then apart from the characteristic of the series there is two important points. The amount of talent that gets screened in the series leading up to that serie and the quality of the training they receive. Then you have to also separate racing and driving. Driving is speed against the track, racing is your ability and craft to compete against others. Rally drivers are not racers but I would say score very high on the traning. Then you can look at different aspects like how fast and good reactions do you need etc. I think a series who claims to have the best drivers should have some aspects that are on top of any other series (and not just some huss muss). I think when talking about precise repeatable driving there qualifying an F1 car is at the very top of the list as it's so difficult to overtake.

[Sniper]

Nascar does have some exceptional drivers such as Jeff Gordon and they are brilliant at what they do. Jeff Gordon would probably make a great F1 driver too as he seems to be in great shape.
Nascar races may be longer, but I'd hazard a guess and say that the F1 race around Monaco (and many other F1 circuits) is more physically demanding than driving around a banked oval for 500 miles.

The banking takes away most of the cornering forces and they also have straps or pads to keep their head from rolling too far to the right. Not that that makes it easy but I doubt very many Nascar drivers could do the Monaco GP without collapsing from sheer exhaustion afterwards.

Thats not to say they aren't the greatest drivers at what they do.

I watch very little Nascar but am always amused how the commentators feel the need to put F1 down. I have watched 3 sessions of Nascar that lasted about 10 mins each in the last 3 months and each time heard some comments putting down F1 and how Nascar is so much better.

Example: Dumbass Darryl saying that some Nascar engineer got an offer from an F1 team and asking why would this guy want to take a step down and go to F1.

I'm sorry but thats a dumbass ignorant fool for you.

Oh and whoever was wondering why Nascar fans don't know about the rest of the world ? Its not just Nascar fans, its the entire country.

[Don Capps]

I am always amazed how much glue there still is in that seriously dead horse of "world's greatest drivers/series/whatever." Those competing in the top echelons of any form of motor sport -- F1, Moto-X, touring cars, NASCAR, CART, IRL, F3000, F3, Moto GP, and so forth -- are clearly Very Good and those in the top tiers if these series can be easily looked upon as "great" in terms of talent and skill. There is not a single series which has a monopoly on the "world's greatest drivers," Period. Some of these are in F1, some in CART, some in Moto-X, some in NASCAR, and so forth.

I have to admit some bias towards the bike racers, an opinion I have held since the mid-1950's when I was first introduced to bike racing. To watch John Surtees at speed on two wheels or Mike Hailwood or Kenny Roberts -- to just name a few..... WOW!

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Sniper


I watch very little Nascar but am always amused how the commentators feel the need to put F1 down. I have watched 3 sessions of Nascar that lasted about 10 mins each in the last 3 months and each time heard some comments putting down F1 and how Nascar is so much better.




Oh and whoever was wondering why Nascar fans don't know about the rest of the world ? Its not just Nascar fans, its the entire country.

- I've watched entire NASCAR races, and have never heard F1 mentioned at all. You should enter the lottery.

- Well you just proved by that last comment that your even more ignorant. Plenty of people I know know about the world and plenty don't. But I've also talked to many Europeans and Canadiens for that matter that think the US is totally just like that old TV show Dallas. I spent the weekend at the Canadien Grand Prix with a girl from Montreal who thought that Orlando, FL was the norm in the US, and alll the US was just like that. Ignorance of the world is a universal trait.

[ForzaF1]

When was the last time NASCAR had a 500 mile race and actually raced all 500 miles (i.e. no full course yellows) ?

[Locai]

Originally posted by GBarclay
Physical Fitness - most race car drivers are questioned as to whether they are even athletes, 45 minutes on a moto-x bike is extremely demanding. Think Jimmy Spencer could handle that?

A better question, do you think that a moto-x bike could handle hauling Jimmy Spencer's fat carcass around for 45 minutes without both collapsing in a smoking heap?

Originally posted by Flying Panda
Much like F1 fans think that Europe is the "world"

What if we put Rossi in an Indycar, Schumacher in a NASCAR or Kurt Busch in a F1 car.....

what evidence is there to suggest that they'd still be winning?

Obviously, there is no evidence that they'd still be winning. I was just saying that Rossi's comeback in that race was amazing.

The hardest part about comparing the leading drivers of one series to the leading drivers of another series is that you can't really tell if they're "that good" or if their competition is "that bad".

[Pesko]

Originally posted by Sniper

Example: Dumbass Darryl saying that some Nascar engineer got an offer from an F1 team and asking why would this guy want to take a step down and go to F1.

I'm sorry but thats a dumbass ignorant fool for you.

Oh and whoever was wondering why Nascar fans don't know about the rest of the world ? Its not just Nascar fans, its the entire country.

I didn't know Darryl Waltrip was America's spokesperson. It's best not to take anything a Waltrip says too seriously.;)

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by ForzaF1
When was the last time NASCAR had a 500 mile race and actually raced all 500 miles (i.e. no full course yellows) ?

Michigan, went green all the way last year, IIRC. Only a 400 mile race, but it was green the whole way.

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by tifosi


- I've watched entire NASCAR races, and have never heard F1 mentioned at all. You should enter the lottery.

I'm not sure I'd ever heard a F1 reference during a nascar race either, except when Dale Sr. gave Jacques the thumbs up for getting the pole in his first GP.

[Jordan191]

Originally posted by ForzaF1
When was the last time NASCAR had a 500 mile race and actually raced all 500 miles (i.e. no full course yellows) ?

when was the last time F1 had a race where there was racing for the entire 305 km or so ?

[maxell]

My 2 cents:

You only need to look at factors like age and fitness to find out that F1-drivers kick the c### out of the Nascar guys. The average in Nascar is high, and they all seem rather bulky and fat to me. Well they never have to turn the wheel so maybe that is a nonfactor!

You cannot compare 200 lap Nascar event to 80 laps in an F1 event. In Nascar you turn twice per lap and change your thrust on the gas 4 times per lap. While in F1 (and CART etc) you need to make some 15 turns per lap brake really hard and accelarate 30 times per lap with the G-forces and millimeter perfect accuracy.

Put any F1 driver in a Nascar and he would do REALLY well. Put any Nascar driver in an F1 car and what do you get? Only 2-3 of them would do OK. And actually only 10 of them would fit

[Ross Stonefeld]

Sunday?

Hell even CART was caution free other than the aborted start.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by maxell

Put any F1 driver in a Nascar and he would do REALLY well. Put any Nascar driver in an F1 car and what do you get? Only 2-3 of them would do OK. And actually only 10 of them would fit

Right on - Right ON!

[Redneck Ferrari]

Originally posted by maxell
My 2 cents:

You only need to look at factors like age and fitness to find out that F1-drivers kick the c### out of the Nascar guys. The average in Nascar is high, and they all seem rather bulky and fat to me. Well they never have to turn the wheel so maybe that is a nonfactor!

You cannot compare 200 lap Nascar event to 80 laps in an F1 event. In Nascar you turn twice per lap and change your thrust on the gas 4 times per lap. While in F1 (and CART etc) you need to make some 15 turns per lap brake really hard and accelarate 30 times per lap with the G-forces and millimeter perfect accuracy.

Put any F1 driver in a Nascar and he would do REALLY well. Put any Nascar driver in an F1 car and what do you get? Only 2-3 of them would do OK. And actually only 10 of them would fit

Ya Yoong would kick a$$?
Only into the concrete barriers. :yawn:

[Locai]

Originally posted by maxell
My 2 cents:

You only need to look at factors like age and fitness to find out that F1-drivers kick the c### out of the Nascar guys. The average in Nascar is high, and they all seem rather bulky and fat to me. Well they never have to turn the wheel so maybe that is a nonfactor!

Um, that's a bit of an over simplification. Jeff Gordon is in very good shape. Mark Martin is supposed to be a workout junkie. And Michael Waltrip has run marathons. That's not to say that any of them could get behind the wheel of an F1 car and finish a race distance right now. For one, their neck muscles are ready to deal with the forces inflicted during an F1 race.

"Greatest" doesn't necessarily equate to "fittest". I seem to recall more than a few pictures of race car drivers in the past with a cigarette hanging out of their mouths on the podium/in the winner's circle. And certainly fitness for one sport doesn't necessarily translate into fitness for another sport.

[George Bailey]

Originally posted by maxell
Put any Nascar driver in an F1 car and what do you get? Only 2-3 of them would do OK. And actually only 10 of them would fit

Good point, that's why jockeys must be considered much better drivers than anyone in F1. Smaller means better, right???

[JayWay]

It's spelled Canadian.

Originally posted by tifosi


- I've watched entire NASCAR races, and have never heard F1 mentioned at all. You should enter the lottery.

- Well you just proved by that last comment that your even more ignorant. Plenty of people I know know about the world and plenty don't. But I've also talked to many Europeans and Canadiens for that matter that think the US is totally just like that old TV show Dallas. I spent the weekend at the Canadien Grand Prix with a girl from Montreal who thought that Orlando, FL was the norm in the US, and alll the US was just like that. Ignorance of the world is a universal trait.

[George Bailey]

Originally posted by JayWay
It's spelled Canadian.

Maybe he only talks to hockey players.

[maxell]

Originally posted by George Bailey


Good point, that's why jockeys must be considered much better drivers than anyone in F1. Smaller means better, right???

Obviously you didn't see my smiley as that last part was a joke!

[George Bailey]

Originally posted by maxell


Obviously you didn't see my smiley as that last part was a joke!

Well you clearly missed my invisible smiley as well.;)


I just like bringing up jockeys as often as possible, it makes me feel tall.

[maxell]

Originally posted by Locai


Um, that's a bit of an over simplification. Jeff Gordon is in very good shape. Mark Martin is supposed to be a workout junkie. And Michael Waltrip has run marathons. That's not to say that any of them could get behind the wheel of an F1 car and finish a race distance right now. For one, their neck muscles are ready to deal with the forces inflicted during an F1 race.

"Greatest" doesn't necessarily equate to "fittest". I seem to recall more than a few pictures of race car drivers in the past with a cigarette hanging out of their mouths on the podium/in the winner's circle.

I said "the average driver" in Nascar is bulky, fat and/or old! Not all of them! The 2-3 I mentioned that would do good includes Jeff Gordon.

The "greatest" of the past wouldn't be "greatest" today IMHO because they don't have the stength and endurance to stand upto the best today. It is vital to be fit to maintain concentration and the G-forces of a race (except Nascar perhaps).

[maxell]

Originally posted by George Bailey


Well you clearly missed my invisible smiley as well.;)


I just like bringing up jockeys as often as possible, it makes me feel tall.

Gotya!

[SpeakerGuru]

Originally posted by maxell


I said "the average driver" in Nascar is bulky, fat and/or old! Not all of them! The 2-3 I mentioned that would do good includes Jeff Gordon.

The "greatest" of the past wouldn't be "greatest" today IMHO because they don't have the stength and endurance to stand upto the best today. It is vital to be fit to maintain concentration and the G-forces of a race (except Nascar perhaps).

Do you even watch NASCAR or do you just perpetuate the stereotype?

Who is the average driver to you? Jeff Gordon? Dale Jr.? Dale Jarrett? Tony Stewart? Kurt Busch? Matt Kenseth? Bobby Labonte? Jimmy Johnson? Mark Martin? Kevin Harvick? Steve Park? Ryan Newman? Michael Waltrip? Jeremy Mayfield? Should I go on? Are these guys, on average, fat or old?

Do you see Jimmy Spencer and assume he represents all Winston Cup drivers?

Think before you type next time, please.

[Paste]

Originally posted by SpeakerGuru


Do you even watch NASCAR or do you just perpetuate the stereotype?

Who is the average driver to you? Jeff Gordon? Dale Jr.? Dale Jarrett? Tony Stewart? Kurt Busch? Matt Kenseth? Bobby Labonte? Jimmy Johnson? Mark Martin? Kevin Harvick? Steve Park? Ryan Newman? Michael Waltrip? Jeremy Mayfield? Should I go on? Are these guys, on average, fat or old?

Do you see Jimmy Spencer and assume he represents all Winston Cup drivers?

Think before you type next time, please.

x 1000, my friend.


As for DW's comment about the world's greatest drivers, what the hell do you expect him to say?? "These drivers out here, they pale in comparison to all of the global elitist racing series' drivers"??? Of course he's going to support NASCAR - and he should, they've got plenty of talent on display for those who wish to actually take a look and understand rather than just perpetuate idiotic stereotypes.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by SpeakerGuru


Do you even watch NASCAR or do you just perpetuate the stereotype?

Who is the average driver to you? Tony Stewart?

Dude, Tony is beyond sloppy.

[maxell]

Originally posted by SpeakerGuru


Do you even watch NASCAR or do you just perpetuate the stereotype?

Who is the average driver to you? Jeff Gordon? Dale Jr.? Dale Jarrett? Tony Stewart? Kurt Busch? Matt Kenseth? Bobby Labonte? Jimmy Johnson? Mark Martin? Kevin Harvick? Steve Park? Ryan Newman? Michael Waltrip? Jeremy Mayfield? Should I go on? Are these guys, on average, fat or old?

Do you see Jimmy Spencer and assume he represents all Winston Cup drivers?

Think before you type next time, please.

Yes I do watch it now and then on Eurosport thank you very much . I don't know them by name (bar Jeff Gordon) but I see them all the time on TV. I see their stats and picture of them all. I've seen the winners and my opinion is based on all that. I have spoken to other racing fans and everyone I've spoken to about Nascar have the same feeling as I have.

It's sad of you to say "think before you type". It implies way to much about me that you have no idea about. No need to get physical here!

You name all the drivers in your post and I'm not going to make the mistake of analysing you here (like you did). I'm not gonna say you are trying to seem like a know-it-all by naming them all and making that as an argument. I'm not gonna do that!

[SpeakerGuru]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld



Dude, Tony is beyond sloppy.

I'm not so sure. He's no fitness king, but he's not sloppy fat either.

[SpeakerGuru]

Maxell, I did not name them all - there are 43 guys at any given race. I was hoping to give you an idea of today's Winston Cup driver. Not at all the 'portly poppas' of years past. It is a different type of driver in NASCAR now. Your impressions are, IMO, wrong. I hope you'll be able to see that if you continue to give it the occasional look.