77 replies to this topic

[B747]

mmmmmmm.......another Schumacher in the make,


maybe Alonso IS really as good if not better than what his fans say, something fans of another drivers wish would be true for his driver. (specially fans of a certain driver who's name start with JV, but I don't want to turn this into a bashing thread so I won't say his name .)

[balaclava]

Well.. Villeneuve can hardly show his skill in that crapwagon, can he? That BAR is not a proper car for a world champion.

[B747]

balaclava

Well.. Villeneuve can hardly show his skill in that crapwagon, can he? That BAR is not a proper car for a world champion

Can't understand why you thought I was talking about Villeneuve, after all I didn't mention his name

[balaclava]

aha, I thought that you were speaking about Villeneuve. I missunderstood the JV. Sorry then


(although seeing ville in that crap makes me sad )

[coyoteBR]

Come is unfair to say "brazilian press". As I see it, there's two big groups of journalists here:

the blindely patriotics with their leader Galvão "I'll-say-'unforgetable-Ayrton-Senna'-30-times-every-raceweekend" Bueno. The most annoying kind, but seems to be the ones that most atrack the fans. I would add to this group the people of "4 Rodas" magazine and half of the staff of "Racing" magazine. Reginaldo Leme, unfortunatelly, seems to be asking for his membership here

the 'hay govierno? Soy contra' bunch Those love to create a polemic, love to trash some real effords of drivers. Here I put some people of "O Estado de S.Paulo", the magazines "IstoÉ" and, sometimes, Nelson Piquet.

... and there are the few ones that strive to search the facts, and give opinions that are only influentied by the sense of justice and passion for the speed and for the sport. Folha de S.Paulo's José Mariante, for instance.

But I think the press is like so all over the word. the most annoying kind seem to have a louder voice. A pity.

[Redneck Ferrari]

Originally posted by B747
mmmmmmm.......another Schumacher in the make,


maybe Alonso IS really as good if not better than what his fans say, something fans of another drivers wish would be true for his driver. (specially fans of a certain driver who's name start with JV, but I don't want to turn this into a bashing thread so I won't say his name .)

Earth to B747, come in B747
Alonso was blown off by Jeff Gordon and Nick Heidfeld at the Michelin ROC in cars and disciplines that niether of them have driven in by .4 sec. So, come down to earth with the "next Schumacher/Senna/Prost/Stewart/Clark" theory.
Alonso is wayyyyyyy over-rated
Face it he's being puffed-up to the media by none other than his manager/team manager/used car salesman - Flavio

[Jhope]

Like I said....

Maybe what you guys seem to forget, is that Alonso had two hours friday morning to test different dry setups. All other front running teams who didn`t opt for the friday test sessions lost out, because every single free practice session was a wet session, bar the 15 minute warmup prior to saturday qual. Their setups were compromised, whereas Renault`s were optimised. Not taking anything away from Fernando, he drove a stellar race, but you guys are praisin ghim and not looking at the details.

and like Alonso said....

Q: With the bad weather how difficult was it to find a set-up?
“It was difficult, but we had the dry test session, and I think for the race it was even more of an advantage, because we were able to test the tyres, and to do a lot of comparisons on the set-up...

[B747]

Redneck Ferrari


I haven't pay atention to his manager/team manager/used car salesman - Flavio


but it seems to me that he is doing a great job so far, and even been much more consistant than very experienced good drivers like Montoya and Raikkonen,( well, Kimmi really is not much more experienced) don't know if he is the next Schumacher, whom by the way was supposedly beaten by drivers like Frentzen and Alesi before coming to F1 ( both very good but got nowhere in F1 years later.)

but I found funny to already see conspiracys around him and that is what my comment was about.
(and not least some bashing into JV)


PS to balaclava;

you didn't

I surely was not talking about Joss the Boss so guess who is left

[Redneck Ferrari]

JV has a Indy 500, a CART championship, and a F1 WDC.
What does Alonso have????? Besides a good PR man in Flavio.
You can't be even the slightest bit serious thinking the BARmolotovcocktail001-005 has been anywhere near a decent drive?
I find it halarious when people think JV is doing it for the money - He could make enough money to retire selling his dads old crap on Ebay. He grew up in Monaco ? Don't send him any lunch money, I think he's ok

There's alot more to it than being a fast driver. If the driver/engineer don't 'click', then the driver looks bad. How many good drivers have looked bad to down-right aweful in Schumachers cars?
Mika had his hands full with Johnny Herbert @ Lotus who was blown off by MS @ Benetton. Brundle, Patrese, Irvine, Berger, Alesi (both thought MS's Benetton "un-driveable"). Ruben's has done relatively well in MS's cars. Berger/Alesi were a joke. They couldn't barely get a job at Minardi with a fistful of cash afterwards.

I have no favorite driver and haven't since May 1, 1994. So, I am unbiased.

Maybe Alonso will make me eat my words...................................I'm open to it.

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Redneck Ferrari

What does Alonso have????? Besides a good PR man in Flavio.

More than you have before you turned 21...or before you TURN 21.

[MJP]

Originally posted by Redneck Ferrari

Earth to B747, come in B747
Alonso was blown off by Jeff Gordon and Nick Heidfeld at the Michelin ROC in cars and disciplines that niether of them have driven in by .4 sec. So, come down to earth with the "next Schumacher/Senna/Prost/Stewart/Clark" theory.
Alonso is wayyyyyyy over-rated
Face it he's being puffed-up to the media by none other than his manager/team manager/used car salesman - Flavio

Alonso is a young driver who is working hard to make it in F1. Considering where he was, and what resources he has to his disposition, he is doing an excellent job, thank you very much (regardless who rates him). BAR guys must be green with envy.

I think he shall be our object to admire in the future next with Kimi, and hopefully others... (Massa, etc.)

[Redneck Ferrari]

Originally posted by Jhope


More than you have before you turned 21...or before you TURN 21.

What are you 15?
Or just have the logic capacity of a 15 year old?
I was comparing JV NOT me
I'm a golf professional and would GLADY play against Alonso for whatever he would like or you for that matter

[Renault4ever]

Originally posted by Redneck Ferrari
What does Alonso have????? Besides a good PR man in Flavio.

Are you suggesting that having a good PR man makes you a faster driver? Is this your explanation for Alonso's plain-for-all-to-see speed? What a load of absolute rubbish.

And this talk about needing to 'click' with the engineers before you can get results. Isn't a drivers ability to have highly effective, synergetic relationships with the engineers an integral part of a great driver's skill? That's one of the reasons MS is five times World Champion and JV has only one World Championship, which was achieved in no less than a Williams-Renault - the best car of the time. If you want to talk about a PR extravaganza, look no further than your beloved JV.

[ZZMS]

Originally posted by Todd
What they said about the best time being before the 2nd pitstop points to the idea that they are running the car well under the weight regulation. The car ways more than 600 kgs during qualifying, as it has full tanks. Before each of its pitstops, it ways much less than 600 kgs. On the last pitstop, more fuel is added than is needed to go the race distance. That leaves enough fuel to serve as ballast in post race inspection. The new rules really reward this form of cheating. Renault could carry more fuel in qualifying without being as heavy or heavier than their competitors. Just a theory.

the car is weighted (and has min. weight requriement) without fluids (oil, fuel) so this theory is false.

[Todd]

Originally posted by ZZMS


the car is weighted (and has min. weight requriement) without fluids (oil, fuel) so this theory is false.

When does this happen exactly? The cars have ballast to bring them up to minimum. The only times during a weekend that the cars are available for weighing by the FIA are before, during and after practice and qualifying, and before and after a race. There is no way for the FIA to weigh a car before each pitstop of a race, and there are a plethora of ways for the teams to make sure their cars are not under minimum when they know they will be weighed. The fluids claim made above is false. The minimum weight is for the car with the driver. There is no need for the car to ever weigh 600 kgs plus the weight of coolants and lubricants. Only fuel is supposed to be in addition to the 600 kgs minimum weight.

[Rene]

Originally posted by ZZMS


the car is weighted (and has min. weight requriement) without fluids (oil, fuel) so this theory is false.

I have to agree with Todd on this one, there have been numerous examples of teams adding magnets, ball bearings, etc to fuel...if there is a possibility for someone to run a car under weight for even a portion of a GP you can bet your bottom dollar that they are (not that I am saying Renault are doing anything illegal...Im just saying it is within the bounds of reality).

As for the rules, cars are weighed with fuel and oil etc...not empty!

The Scrutineers may weigh the cars at any time, to make sure that they never weigh less than 600 kg, including driver. A weighing device is located at the entrance to the pit lane to enable these checks to be carried out. During qualifying practice, a computer programme selects at random the cars which are to be checked. When a car is chosen, a red light comes on and the driver returning to his pit must proceed to the weighing area. If the weight of the car is less than the minimum required by the Technical Regulations, the driver could be excluded from the event, but he has the right to request that the car be weighed a second time. To avoid cheating, any car which breaks down on the circuit also has to pass in front of the computer which decides whether the car must be weighed in the same conditions. At the end of the race, all the cars are directed to the parc fermé where they are weighed; the drivers are also weighed before proceeding to the podium or to their motorhome. An under-weight car will usually be excluded from the classification.

[ZZMS]

I have to take my words back.


Technical Regulations rule 4.1 says

Minimum weight:
The weight of the car must not be less than 605 kg during each qualifying practice session and no less than 600 kg at all other times during the Event.

Underlined is a new for 2003. So now there is no reference to drivers or fuel or any fluids. So I suppose all cars can run under 600kg between stints and make sure that after the race there is enough fuel to weight no less than 600kg... The rule is as vague as most of FIA's rules

[Redneck Ferrari]

Originally posted by Renault4ever

Are you suggesting that having a good PR man makes you a faster driver? Is this your explanation for Alonso's plain-for-all-to-see speed? What a load of absolute rubbish.

And this talk about needing to 'click' with the engineers before you can get results. Isn't a drivers ability to have highly effective, synergetic relationships with the engineers an integral part of a great driver's skill? That's one of the reasons MS is five times World Champion and JV has only one World Championship, which was achieved in no less than a Williams-Renault - the best car of the time. If you want to talk about a PR extravaganza, look no further than your beloved JV.

I'm suggesting that having a good PR man makes you faster in the MEDIA'S EYES.
Your saying that 2 people will always click?
What happend to Johnny Herbert, Patrese, Verstappen, Berger, Alesi, and pretty much everyone except Piquet that has driven alongside of MS? They were all bad drivers? Thats your explanation?
I would believe that the car is ENGINEERED toward a MS driving style.
If you've jumped on slimey, greasy, Flavio's "Alonso is the next superstar" bandwagon then explain how he was blown off at the Michelin ROC by .4 sec , by Gordon & Heidfeld?
That was a fair test, no one had AWD Rally experience. So Alonso was just plain sloooow.
FACTOID #!: Heidfeld or Gordon is the proven faster driver in equally prep'ed cars.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Redneck Ferrari
JV has a Indy 500, a CART championship, and a F1 WDC.
What does Alonso have????? Besides a good PR man in Flavio.
You can't be even the slightest bit serious thinking the BARmolotovcocktail001-005 has been anywhere near a decent drive?
I find it halarious when people think JV is doing it for the money - He could make enough money to retire selling his dads old crap on Ebay. He grew up in Monaco ? Don't send him any lunch money, I think he's ok


Maybe Alonso will make me eat my words...................................I'm open to it.

How many of those did JV have at Alonso's age?

It is JV's own fault he is at BAR, he has said it was about the money, he has commented many times that making the most money is very important to him. He may have changed his mind in the last year or so, and now wants to do a "I'll drive for any decent team with a performance-contract" routine, but the fact is JV dug his own BAR grave due to his hyper-inflated ego and love of his bank account.

[Redneck Ferrari]

How many of those did JV have at Alonso's age?

I'd have to go to www.JV-World.com to find out and I'm not sure I'm ready for that:rotfl:
I do know that he is the youngest winner of the Indy 500& CART championship ~ 23 yrs old or so

I don't remember team owners as being as receptive to younger talent back either.
Senna tested for Williams first and was passed on. He had to race at Toleman for a year, so..................

[Rene]

Originally posted by Redneck Ferrari
I don't remember team owners as being as receptive to younger talent back either.
Senna tested for Williams first and was passed on. He had to race at Toleman for a year, so..................

I agree that there is a tendancy to look seriously at younger drivers than there was before, as the cars simply don't require the same skill level as they did years ago...in terms of manual clutch, manual gear shits, one hand on the wheel, no powersteering, etc etc etc...

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Redneck Ferrari


I don't remember team owners as being as receptive to younger talent back either.
Senna tested for Williams first and was passed on. He had to race at Toleman for a year, so..................

JV was hardly "back then" We are talking about 1996, 7 years ago, Senna came in during the 80s. JV went straight into the very best car by far on the grid. He won 1 WDC in that car than made a fatal career move and once there became inatuated with the money. I seriously doubt if Alonso will ever match JV's "achievements" since he would never race in CART or the IRL.

Be that as it may, Im not really comparing them, just pinting out Alonsa is kinda young to have championships compared, he's been in a Minardi and a Renault. If Alonso is expected to win in those cars then JV should have 4 WDC's with BAR by now. But like I said JV dug himself his own hole. Unfortunateley, and I liked JV, he will not be remembered for his WDC but for being a whining loser with BAR.

[Cojayar]

Originally posted by Redneck Ferrari
If you've jumped on slimey, greasy, Flavio's "Alonso is the next superstar" bandwagon then explain how he was blown off at the Michelin ROC by .4 sec , by Gordon & Heidfeld?

Man, you are getting ill. It's fourth or fifth time you say the same. BTW, who won the Nations Cup in the Michelin ROC in 2001? Can you name the drivers? Nah, you didn't know about this event until last year.

Probably you still don't know that it's a show where drivers have fun. But it's also risky. The most scary accident of rally driver and twice WC Carlos Sainz was in one of the Michelin ROC some years ago. Since then they try that the drivers don't push too hard.

BTW, CdM won by 4 seconds (not 0.4 seconds but 4 whole seconds) against Gordon (2:03:48 against 2:07:03). So it's easy to see that "Flash" Gordon is not so quick and will be 4 seconds behind the Toyota driver in a F1, so a couple of seconds behind the Minardis. Not so impressive.


In fact the faster driver during this week end was G.Giovanardi, so he's the only one that can be properly called the "new Schumacher" or will be MS the new Giovanardi?

Take it easy, Redneck Ferrari, but don't watch too much Nascrap because it doesn't seem to be healty.

[Schummy]

Yes, Canary Islands ROC is basically a joke. I mean it is great fun to watch and it is superb how Michele Mouton organized the event, but the results they get there are not serious as a real competition. I have watched it many years on Spanish TV and the last thing I'd do is to pretend get conclusions about driver's relative merit.

(In fact, the first time Michelin ROC was mentioned inthis thread I thought it was a joke!;) )

[Redneck Ferrari]

Don't get your panties in a wad Cojayar.
I just stated that of the drivers FASTEST LAPS OF THE EVENT your boy-wonder, Alonso , was in fact .4 sec slower than Gordon or Heidfeld thats all

You know sooo much about me you must be Ms. Cleo

Ya a joke????
So......racing drivers aren't competitive? No your
You put a GOOD racing driver in ANY CAR, KART, TRUCK, MOTORCYCLE, LAWNMOWER,......etc and they will want to win PERIOD
You actually think they are just out to come 2nd or 3rd?
Or in Alonso's case 7th or 8th?
Everyone wants to come in 7th or 8th
[start Mr. Macky voice] Competition is bad, Uhnnnmmm Kay [/end Mr. Macky voice]

[Cojayar]

Redneck Ferrari,

you are a good case to study. I know you pretend to be funny but obsession is bad.

BTW, you have to ask me the questions about 2001. Do an effort and look for them in internet.

[Redneck Ferrari]

Obsession If you call not allowing greasy, dirty, slimey, Flavio to pull the wool over my eyes then I guess it's obsession.

As I said earlier, Maybe Alonso will make me eat my words...................................I'm open to it.

As for being your "case study", how much does it pay?

[Caractacus]

RedneckFerrari,
Why are you so anti Alonso? I mean, the guy is bringing some great competition to the top three teams and seems modest and likeable.

"If you've jumped on slimey, greasy, Flavio's "Alonso is the next superstar" bandwagon then explain how he was blown off at the Michelin ROC by .4 sec , by Gordon & Heidfeld?"

I would have thought that the explanation for that would be that he drove .4 of a second slower at the Michelin ROC. Hardly a big deal. There are so many reasons for why that could be the case in a one-off race that i don't think we could do the subject justce.

In any case, I would have believed that you would want to minimise the importance of the event if Gordon's time deficit to daMatta really was +4 seconds as claimed above.