A few years ago, some parts that were incorportated into cars that Peter Giddings and Lawrence Auriana own came out of Australia. Rumors say that some of these parts came from Argentina to Australia before that.
Peter got some Alfa 12c37 suspension parts that appeared to have remnants of tubular Nardi chassis bits attached to them. Other parts went to Lawrence Auriana. Some of these parts were incorporated into the 8c35 that Peter had built up in New Zealand which used a real C type chassis; #8 (from a 12c36?) and motor 50012 from an 8c-35.
I have now heard that the Tipo 412 Alfa sportscar that was at Nardi in 1958 was reportedly turned into some kind of Alfa Special. Nardi kept the 412/12c37 motor and it eventually went to Lauwrence Auriana. The chassis parts that eventually went to he and Peter might be all that is left of the Vignale bodied 412 sports that Bonetto finished 6th overall in at the MM in 1951...
Any information from our Australian or South American members would be greatly appreciated
Giddings and Auriana Alfa C type GP cars...
Started by
dretceterini
, Jun 20 2003 22:05
13 replies to this topic
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#2
Ray Bell
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Posted 20 June 2003 - 22:20
To my knowledge, the only pre-war racing Alfas that ever lived in Australia were:
Alf Barrett's Monza
Jack Saywell's dubonnet suspension Tipo B
Lex Davison's leaf spring Tipo B
Alf Barrett's Monza
Jack Saywell's dubonnet suspension Tipo B
Lex Davison's leaf spring Tipo B
#3
David Birchall
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Posted 20 June 2003 - 22:22
Years ago I took a picture of an Alfa 8c engine in Peter's shop. he had bought it he said because it was reputed to be the engine that Nuvolari beat the German teams with. It proved to be larger than any existing engine and I don't know what Peter did with it. I have a photo if that is of any help. (No scanner though...) Regards, David B
#4
dretceterini
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Posted 20 June 2003 - 22:59
Ray:
The car wouldn't have ever been in Australia.....it would be the remnants of car that was at Nardi in Italy in the late 50s-early 60s...then went to South America..and later, some parts went to Australia..the parts wouldn't have gone to Peter Giddings or Lawrence Auriana until the 1990s..
The car wouldn't have ever been in Australia.....it would be the remnants of car that was at Nardi in Italy in the late 50s-early 60s...then went to South America..and later, some parts went to Australia..the parts wouldn't have gone to Peter Giddings or Lawrence Auriana until the 1990s..
#5
Ray Bell
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Posted 20 June 2003 - 23:07
I guess my point is that I don't understand why anyone would want parts of them here...
None of these cars raced here as Alfa-engined Alfas after about 1953 or so, to my knowledge.
New Zealand might be a different matter...
None of these cars raced here as Alfa-engined Alfas after about 1953 or so, to my knowledge.
New Zealand might be a different matter...
#6
Dick Willis
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Posted 22 June 2003 - 03:19
Peter Giddings raced in Australia in 1998 at Winton in the Tipo 8C 35 that he bought from a UK auction which had been owned since 1947 by Dennis Poore, it was described the Winton programme as chassis number 50013, the only complete, original, surviving Tipo 8C-35 in the world.
This year he was at the Phillip Island Historics in March with his Alfa described in the programme as a Tipo 8C/12C-35, a S/F works car campaigned in both 8 and 12 cylinder form on intrtnational tracks such as Monza, Modena and Monaco before being exported to the USA where it competed at Indy in 1937 in 3.8 litre form driven by Rex Mays, and is currently appearing in 3000cc form, unquote.
Now, this second car is obviously not the ex Poore car, does he still own it ? But obviously the car which was restored/recreated by Auto Restorations in NZ, possibly using the engine described in an earlier part of this thread. Did he use the Poore car as a copy for the rebuild of this car.
I have also seen a car advertised in the UK for auction although I can't remember just when, which was described as having South American origins. So now, from having only one surviving 8C-35 in the world in 1998, it seems we now have three. Can someone please enlighten me !
I also doubt that any parts of the second Giddings car had ever been in Australia prior to it racing here this year.
This year he was at the Phillip Island Historics in March with his Alfa described in the programme as a Tipo 8C/12C-35, a S/F works car campaigned in both 8 and 12 cylinder form on intrtnational tracks such as Monza, Modena and Monaco before being exported to the USA where it competed at Indy in 1937 in 3.8 litre form driven by Rex Mays, and is currently appearing in 3000cc form, unquote.
Now, this second car is obviously not the ex Poore car, does he still own it ? But obviously the car which was restored/recreated by Auto Restorations in NZ, possibly using the engine described in an earlier part of this thread. Did he use the Poore car as a copy for the rebuild of this car.
I have also seen a car advertised in the UK for auction although I can't remember just when, which was described as having South American origins. So now, from having only one surviving 8C-35 in the world in 1998, it seems we now have three. Can someone please enlighten me !
I also doubt that any parts of the second Giddings car had ever been in Australia prior to it racing here this year.
#7
dretceterini
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Posted 22 June 2003 - 05:06
I agree that it now appears we have 3 cars, one of which is "real" and two of which are, at least in part, "replicar"
What I'm really trying to do with this thread is establish what happened to the Tipo 412 that was raced by Bonetto in the 1950 and 1951 Mille Miglia. The last time the car was seen complete was circa 1958, at Nardi's shop.
The rumors are that the motor was removed, and eventually went to Lawrence Auriana, who, to the best of my knowledge, still has it. It's number would be 412151, and it would be of the 12C37 type.
The rest of the rumor is that the 412 was made into some sort of Nardi special, was eventually broken up, and parts went to South America, and later, to Australia. I'm not sure exactly what type of suspensions the 412s had, but as the chassis were 8c2900A based, I would imagine that the suspension components are of that type too. Maybe I'm mistaken, and the 412s used 8C or 12C GP suspension pieces, grated to the 8C2900 chassis. Than again, I'm not sure exactly how different the suspension components are.
I'm fairly sure some of the 8C35 GP cars were modified and developed into the 12C36 cars, so I can understand the 8C/12C-35 designation. If the motor in the car now is 3 liters, it obviously isn't the one that was in the car back in the 1930s.
What I'm really trying to do with this thread is establish what happened to the Tipo 412 that was raced by Bonetto in the 1950 and 1951 Mille Miglia. The last time the car was seen complete was circa 1958, at Nardi's shop.
The rumors are that the motor was removed, and eventually went to Lawrence Auriana, who, to the best of my knowledge, still has it. It's number would be 412151, and it would be of the 12C37 type.
The rest of the rumor is that the 412 was made into some sort of Nardi special, was eventually broken up, and parts went to South America, and later, to Australia. I'm not sure exactly what type of suspensions the 412s had, but as the chassis were 8c2900A based, I would imagine that the suspension components are of that type too. Maybe I'm mistaken, and the 412s used 8C or 12C GP suspension pieces, grated to the 8C2900 chassis. Than again, I'm not sure exactly how different the suspension components are.
I'm fairly sure some of the 8C35 GP cars were modified and developed into the 12C36 cars, so I can understand the 8C/12C-35 designation. If the motor in the car now is 3 liters, it obviously isn't the one that was in the car back in the 1930s.
#8
O Volante
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Posted 22 June 2003 - 12:40
OK, again diving into very muddy waters ...
In an article in Classic and Sportscar for April 1988, Simon Moore gave an overview about the then current knowledge about 8C-35 Alfa Romeos. According to this, three cars sold to private owners (resp. their remains) survived:
- 50013, the ex-Rüesch, Arbuthnot, Parnell, Poore car, in 1988 still in the Poore estate, later sold to Anthony Mayman (Mr. Nye, I seem to remember, reported about this and the quite impressive price for C&SC ), and after his suicide to Peter Giddings.
- 50012, the Bill White car, raced by Rex Mays and others at Indy (plus other ChampCar races) from 1937 to 1947. During this period, both bodywork and engine were considerably modified by Ernie Weil - not the least the engine was reduced to 3.0 litres, to allow the car to be used in supercharged form at Indy also after the adoption of the 1938 GP formula! After that the car was used in dirt track races (CRA sanctioned) in California, with an air-cooled Ranger and later a six cylinder Chevrolet engine, until pushed away to a scrapyard. There the remains were found in the mid-1960s and sold to Alfa Romeo. They restored it with a 12C-36 engine (s/n 50103) and displayed it in 1988 at their museum at Arese - were it should still be. - The engine, reduced to 3.0 litres, disappeared for a while, only to be discovered also in California. In 1988 it was with David Uihlein, who was having it rebuild for his engineless P3 (s/n 50002).
- 50014, the ex-Arzani, Nascimento, Ramos, Pesatti car. This car was raced in standard 8C-35 form until 1947, when its then owners, the Pesatti brothers decided to modify bodywork and suspension to make it look - more or less - like an 308. In fact, they went even further, and took the 3.8 engine out and installed a 2.5, 6C-2500 based Alfa marine engine of Argentine production: at first glace, a rather strange move, but by that the car was apparently conforming to the rules of Mechanica Nacional racing ...
In any case, the modified car appeared with 3.8 engine only once, in the (International) Varela Castex GP at Palermo, Buneos Aires, on February 14, 1948, with Pablo Luis Pesatti finishing 4th. After that the 2.5 engine for MN racing went in, but in its first race in this form, the Premio Otono at Palermo, Buenos Aires on March 21, 1948, poor Pablo crash fatally in the final (after finishing 2nd in his heat). The remains of the car seem to have rested for a while, until Alberto Crespo bought and rebuild them. With his Alfa-marine engined car he won one of the MN races at the Buenos Aires Autodrome inauguration MN races und other Argentine MN competitions during the mid-1950s. Later the car went to Hector Nimitz for more MN racing, until it came engineless into the hands of Lucio Bollaert. In 1986, Bollaert sold it, still without engine, with lots of Alfa spares to "a well known Alfa enthusiast here in England".
- In the late 1970s, Giulio Dubbini had a Monza with a 3.8 engine fitted. According to Simon Moore's 1988 article, this was "a spare 8C35 engine from No 50015, also stamped 63 (a Scuderia Ferrari serial number)". The car was later acquired by Peter Giddings, who removed the engine from the Monza. "In 1983", Simon wrote in 1988, "I visited Peter in California and tried to persuade both him and, by mail, Lucio Bollaert, to get together to rebuild the Arzani car using this spare engine. Unfortunately, I didn't succeed, but the engine was sold to London dealer, Danny Margulies, and then on to its present home. So now this spare engine will be built up and fitted to the Arzani car."
- In his 2.3 book, from 2000, Simon has revealled who got this spare engine, and apparently also the remains of the car - Paul Grist in England, and, based on info from Carlo Leto di Priolo, detailled the history of the engine in question. Accordingly it was sold by the Alfa Romeo race department in 1937 to speed boat racer Arnaldo Castiglione, who used it in his boats up to 1951. Then it went back to Alfa, was rebuilt with original parts and kept in the Monza Museum for exhibition., before it went to Dubbini.
- The 1988 article ends with a run-down of other then known engines: Accordingly no real 12C-36 engine has survived despite that they "were produced in considerable numbers, both in marine (supercharged) form and in unblown form (Tipo 412 sports car). Two of these survive in cars, namely the one fitted to 50012 in the Alfa Museum and the one in the Tipo 412 at the Mulhouse Museum, which was supercharged by Daetwyler. In addition, there is one in a boat at Alfa's museum along with a spare on a stand alongside it." A 3.8 engine is, of course, in the 308 Alfa in the Fangio museum - the ex-Gálvez car, s/n 50017, and a 12C-37 is in the ex-Bucci car, s/n 51204.
Later I will come back and explain what this seems to imply for the original question ...
In an article in Classic and Sportscar for April 1988, Simon Moore gave an overview about the then current knowledge about 8C-35 Alfa Romeos. According to this, three cars sold to private owners (resp. their remains) survived:
- 50013, the ex-Rüesch, Arbuthnot, Parnell, Poore car, in 1988 still in the Poore estate, later sold to Anthony Mayman (Mr. Nye, I seem to remember, reported about this and the quite impressive price for C&SC ), and after his suicide to Peter Giddings.
- 50012, the Bill White car, raced by Rex Mays and others at Indy (plus other ChampCar races) from 1937 to 1947. During this period, both bodywork and engine were considerably modified by Ernie Weil - not the least the engine was reduced to 3.0 litres, to allow the car to be used in supercharged form at Indy also after the adoption of the 1938 GP formula! After that the car was used in dirt track races (CRA sanctioned) in California, with an air-cooled Ranger and later a six cylinder Chevrolet engine, until pushed away to a scrapyard. There the remains were found in the mid-1960s and sold to Alfa Romeo. They restored it with a 12C-36 engine (s/n 50103) and displayed it in 1988 at their museum at Arese - were it should still be. - The engine, reduced to 3.0 litres, disappeared for a while, only to be discovered also in California. In 1988 it was with David Uihlein, who was having it rebuild for his engineless P3 (s/n 50002).
- 50014, the ex-Arzani, Nascimento, Ramos, Pesatti car. This car was raced in standard 8C-35 form until 1947, when its then owners, the Pesatti brothers decided to modify bodywork and suspension to make it look - more or less - like an 308. In fact, they went even further, and took the 3.8 engine out and installed a 2.5, 6C-2500 based Alfa marine engine of Argentine production: at first glace, a rather strange move, but by that the car was apparently conforming to the rules of Mechanica Nacional racing ...
In any case, the modified car appeared with 3.8 engine only once, in the (International) Varela Castex GP at Palermo, Buneos Aires, on February 14, 1948, with Pablo Luis Pesatti finishing 4th. After that the 2.5 engine for MN racing went in, but in its first race in this form, the Premio Otono at Palermo, Buenos Aires on March 21, 1948, poor Pablo crash fatally in the final (after finishing 2nd in his heat). The remains of the car seem to have rested for a while, until Alberto Crespo bought and rebuild them. With his Alfa-marine engined car he won one of the MN races at the Buenos Aires Autodrome inauguration MN races und other Argentine MN competitions during the mid-1950s. Later the car went to Hector Nimitz for more MN racing, until it came engineless into the hands of Lucio Bollaert. In 1986, Bollaert sold it, still without engine, with lots of Alfa spares to "a well known Alfa enthusiast here in England".
- In the late 1970s, Giulio Dubbini had a Monza with a 3.8 engine fitted. According to Simon Moore's 1988 article, this was "a spare 8C35 engine from No 50015, also stamped 63 (a Scuderia Ferrari serial number)". The car was later acquired by Peter Giddings, who removed the engine from the Monza. "In 1983", Simon wrote in 1988, "I visited Peter in California and tried to persuade both him and, by mail, Lucio Bollaert, to get together to rebuild the Arzani car using this spare engine. Unfortunately, I didn't succeed, but the engine was sold to London dealer, Danny Margulies, and then on to its present home. So now this spare engine will be built up and fitted to the Arzani car."
- In his 2.3 book, from 2000, Simon has revealled who got this spare engine, and apparently also the remains of the car - Paul Grist in England, and, based on info from Carlo Leto di Priolo, detailled the history of the engine in question. Accordingly it was sold by the Alfa Romeo race department in 1937 to speed boat racer Arnaldo Castiglione, who used it in his boats up to 1951. Then it went back to Alfa, was rebuilt with original parts and kept in the Monza Museum for exhibition., before it went to Dubbini.
- The 1988 article ends with a run-down of other then known engines: Accordingly no real 12C-36 engine has survived despite that they "were produced in considerable numbers, both in marine (supercharged) form and in unblown form (Tipo 412 sports car). Two of these survive in cars, namely the one fitted to 50012 in the Alfa Museum and the one in the Tipo 412 at the Mulhouse Museum, which was supercharged by Daetwyler. In addition, there is one in a boat at Alfa's museum along with a spare on a stand alongside it." A 3.8 engine is, of course, in the 308 Alfa in the Fangio museum - the ex-Gálvez car, s/n 50017, and a 12C-37 is in the ex-Bucci car, s/n 51204.
Later I will come back and explain what this seems to imply for the original question ...
#9
dretceterini
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Posted 22 June 2003 - 14:12
There is a difference between the 12C36 and 12C37 motors. I have always been under the impression that the motors in the 412 sportscars were 12C37 and not 12C36 type.
#10
O Volante
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Posted 22 June 2003 - 14:47
To continue the above:
It caused some rised eye-brows, to say the least, when Barrett-Jackson in January 2001 first advertised the ex-Arzani 8C-35 for sale, and then in last minute, withdraw it from auction. What had happend?
In the mid-1990s, Paul Grist had his 8C-35 rebuilt and restauration finished, leading to a few historic competition appearances of the car in his and his son Matt's hand. In 1998 this car was then sold by Christie's at Pebble Beach to an undisclosed "American buyer". For while, I (and apparently also a number of other Alfisti ) thought this new owner to be Peter Giddings, because at around the same date the story started to circulate he had now also a second 8C-35 (besides 50013). However, when Lawrence Auriana displayed his new acquisition in public (c. 2000, "Popular Mechanics" featured a historic gathering at Long Island, showing the Auriana 8C-35 ...), it became clear that the new owner of the Grist car was probably not Peter Giddings, and that the origins of his second 8C-35 must be different ...
It was then that the 8C-35 was offered by Barrett-Jackson: According what was made public, it was Italian owned, had been rebuild in Italy using original parts re-imported from the Argentine ... hence ex-Arzani. Now I think the sale of this car was stopped because there was indeed a different story for what so far was considered without objections to be the Arzani car - the ex-Grist, now Auriana example ...
At this time "Classic & Sports Car" for April 2001 published a letter on "the 'will the real 50014 please step forward' puzzle" from nobody else than Peter Giddings! Somewhat unfortunately, this letter makes refence to an article apparently published a short time before in "C&SC", which I have not been able to find - or did Peter simply mean the very short note telling the readers about the Barrett-Jackson withdrawal? (I wonder if this was perhaps something published only in a US edition, different from what we get in Britain and Europe???)
Anyway, Peter stated
- that there is no contemporary photograp showing the Arzani car stripped of its bodywork.
- that "the Barrett-Jackson car features a 'C'-section chassis with round in-line lightening holes whereas the car sold by Christie's at Pebble Beach in '98 features a 'C' section chassis with oval lightening holes. Because of this no one can categorically state that the ex-Arzani 50014 chassis was the self-same chassis later fitted with a 6C marine motor".
- that the pictures of Pessati's fatal crash (to which the earlier article is said to have made reference) "depict an unlightened (neither round nor oval holes!) 'top-hat' section. As a result, one can state with considerable confidence that the Pablo Pessati Tipo C chassis was neither of the aforementioned. By the same token, one cannot claim (at this stage at least) that the Pessati fatal accident chassis was 50014!"
- that besides the 5-digit s/n on some, but not all chassis of the Tipo C range, most, "but apparently not all, frames were stamped with a one-digit frame/assembly number. I believe that a number 1 was discovered on the Barrett-Jackson chassis but no single digit number was found on the Christie's car. On my Tipo C 8C-35 50013 (SF-65) I have fram/assembly number '5' whereas my second Tipo C frame (believed to be the Pesatti car) has a frame/assembly number of '8'. I am not sure if there is a correlation between frame/assembly and chassis numbers, but research continues!"
- that the other 8C-35 around, using the 50012 (SF-64) ex-Mays, much modified and reduced to 3.0 engine, is in fact Gidding's frame/assembly number '8', to return to the tracks "soon", said in 2001
- that the Christie's 8C-35 is using engine 50015, also known as SF-63, formerly owned by himself
- that apart from "later Fangio-sourced spares", both Carlos Arzani (documented in several pages of Scuderia Ferrari invoices) and Ricardo Caru purchased "considerable quantit(ies, W.K.) of Alfa items from Alfa Romeo/Scuderia Ferrari direct."
- "Caru was a bit of a miser over worn and broken parts - even a bent chassis - never throwing anything away. Thus Alfa goodies continue to appear."
To conclude - what does all this mean??? I would think
- that the status of cars 50013 and 50012 is not in doubt
- that 50013 is still owned by Peter Giddings
- that 50012 is still in the Alfa museum
- that there are currently three other cars
- that these, except one, are apparently build from surplus "Alfa items" brought to South America by Arzani, Caru and Fangio and retained there since the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s
- that is still to be determinated which is the real 50014
- that the other two cars are, because build from original parts, no fakes, or said more politely, replicas - ah - thanks, Stu - replicars seems to be new term
- that Peter Giddings apparently thinks, probably based on appearance, that his frame/assembly number '8' is the chassis of the car crashed buy Pesatti, but not necessarily 50014
- that the car recently built up at 'Auto Restaurations' in Auckland, New Zealand, therefore seems to have at least a resonable race record (Pesatti-Crespo-Nimitz)
- that the history of assumed frame/assembly number '1' (the Barret-Jackson car) remains rather weak, because the origins of its engine remain completely unexplained
So much on that; sorry, Stu, nothing about the spares from Oz or a Tipo C frame-based Nardi ...
It caused some rised eye-brows, to say the least, when Barrett-Jackson in January 2001 first advertised the ex-Arzani 8C-35 for sale, and then in last minute, withdraw it from auction. What had happend?
In the mid-1990s, Paul Grist had his 8C-35 rebuilt and restauration finished, leading to a few historic competition appearances of the car in his and his son Matt's hand. In 1998 this car was then sold by Christie's at Pebble Beach to an undisclosed "American buyer". For while, I (and apparently also a number of other Alfisti ) thought this new owner to be Peter Giddings, because at around the same date the story started to circulate he had now also a second 8C-35 (besides 50013). However, when Lawrence Auriana displayed his new acquisition in public (c. 2000, "Popular Mechanics" featured a historic gathering at Long Island, showing the Auriana 8C-35 ...), it became clear that the new owner of the Grist car was probably not Peter Giddings, and that the origins of his second 8C-35 must be different ...
It was then that the 8C-35 was offered by Barrett-Jackson: According what was made public, it was Italian owned, had been rebuild in Italy using original parts re-imported from the Argentine ... hence ex-Arzani. Now I think the sale of this car was stopped because there was indeed a different story for what so far was considered without objections to be the Arzani car - the ex-Grist, now Auriana example ...
At this time "Classic & Sports Car" for April 2001 published a letter on "the 'will the real 50014 please step forward' puzzle" from nobody else than Peter Giddings! Somewhat unfortunately, this letter makes refence to an article apparently published a short time before in "C&SC", which I have not been able to find - or did Peter simply mean the very short note telling the readers about the Barrett-Jackson withdrawal? (I wonder if this was perhaps something published only in a US edition, different from what we get in Britain and Europe???)
Anyway, Peter stated
- that there is no contemporary photograp showing the Arzani car stripped of its bodywork.
- that "the Barrett-Jackson car features a 'C'-section chassis with round in-line lightening holes whereas the car sold by Christie's at Pebble Beach in '98 features a 'C' section chassis with oval lightening holes. Because of this no one can categorically state that the ex-Arzani 50014 chassis was the self-same chassis later fitted with a 6C marine motor".
- that the pictures of Pessati's fatal crash (to which the earlier article is said to have made reference) "depict an unlightened (neither round nor oval holes!) 'top-hat' section. As a result, one can state with considerable confidence that the Pablo Pessati Tipo C chassis was neither of the aforementioned. By the same token, one cannot claim (at this stage at least) that the Pessati fatal accident chassis was 50014!"
- that besides the 5-digit s/n on some, but not all chassis of the Tipo C range, most, "but apparently not all, frames were stamped with a one-digit frame/assembly number. I believe that a number 1 was discovered on the Barrett-Jackson chassis but no single digit number was found on the Christie's car. On my Tipo C 8C-35 50013 (SF-65) I have fram/assembly number '5' whereas my second Tipo C frame (believed to be the Pesatti car) has a frame/assembly number of '8'. I am not sure if there is a correlation between frame/assembly and chassis numbers, but research continues!"
- that the other 8C-35 around, using the 50012 (SF-64) ex-Mays, much modified and reduced to 3.0 engine, is in fact Gidding's frame/assembly number '8', to return to the tracks "soon", said in 2001
- that the Christie's 8C-35 is using engine 50015, also known as SF-63, formerly owned by himself
- that apart from "later Fangio-sourced spares", both Carlos Arzani (documented in several pages of Scuderia Ferrari invoices) and Ricardo Caru purchased "considerable quantit(ies, W.K.) of Alfa items from Alfa Romeo/Scuderia Ferrari direct."
- "Caru was a bit of a miser over worn and broken parts - even a bent chassis - never throwing anything away. Thus Alfa goodies continue to appear."
To conclude - what does all this mean??? I would think
- that the status of cars 50013 and 50012 is not in doubt
- that 50013 is still owned by Peter Giddings
- that 50012 is still in the Alfa museum
- that there are currently three other cars
- that these, except one, are apparently build from surplus "Alfa items" brought to South America by Arzani, Caru and Fangio and retained there since the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s
- that is still to be determinated which is the real 50014
- that the other two cars are, because build from original parts, no fakes, or said more politely, replicas - ah - thanks, Stu - replicars seems to be new term
- that Peter Giddings apparently thinks, probably based on appearance, that his frame/assembly number '8' is the chassis of the car crashed buy Pesatti, but not necessarily 50014
- that the car recently built up at 'Auto Restaurations' in Auckland, New Zealand, therefore seems to have at least a resonable race record (Pesatti-Crespo-Nimitz)
- that the history of assumed frame/assembly number '1' (the Barret-Jackson car) remains rather weak, because the origins of its engine remain completely unexplained
So much on that; sorry, Stu, nothing about the spares from Oz or a Tipo C frame-based Nardi ...
#11
dretceterini
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Posted 23 June 2003 - 01:10
I would assume that if in fact some sort of Nardi specila was built up out of the Bonetto 412 that it would hav had a tubular, and not Tipo C frame, but perhpas with Tipo C suspension components grafted on. I am unaware of such a Nardi.
The Tipo 412 should have had a 8C2900A chassis. I'm still wondering what happened to it and the Vignale body. I can understand how the body might have been disposed of in the early 60s, but by that time people should have been aware of what the chassis was. If find it difficult to believe it was discarded.
As to the motor, as far as I'm aware, it was 12C37 and not 12C36. This is "supposedly" the motor Lawrence Auriana has, but I do not know who was the "inbetween" who actually got it from Nardi.
The Tipo 412 should have had a 8C2900A chassis. I'm still wondering what happened to it and the Vignale body. I can understand how the body might have been disposed of in the early 60s, but by that time people should have been aware of what the chassis was. If find it difficult to believe it was discarded.
As to the motor, as far as I'm aware, it was 12C37 and not 12C36. This is "supposedly" the motor Lawrence Auriana has, but I do not know who was the "inbetween" who actually got it from Nardi.
#12
terry mcgrath
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- 655 posts
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Posted 02 October 2009 - 23:38
It is funny how these very interesting threads start and then stop.
I imagine there must be a lot of updates on these cars in almost 6 years particularly with the Argentine Alfa book being published Simon Moores updated 2900 book and another Argentine book FUERZA LIBRE 1919-1942
What is the latest
terry
I imagine there must be a lot of updates on these cars in almost 6 years particularly with the Argentine Alfa book being published Simon Moores updated 2900 book and another Argentine book FUERZA LIBRE 1919-1942
What is the latest
terry
#13
Dick Willis
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Posted 01 February 2010 - 22:38
To quote from the programme for the Bruce McLaren Festival in NZ, "Peter Greenfield brings to NZ a very interesting car in his 1935 Alfa Romeo Tipo 8C35. Peter acquired the car after reading about it in the Christie's Auction Catalog of 18 August 2005. He said "The organisers of the Ferrari Historic Challenge here in the USA and I have agreed to call the car #50015C, the engine number is 50015 and the C stands for clone".
As described in the Christies catalog it was put together from various part sources by Paul Grist in the UK in the late eighties and early nineties. The running gear, engine, gearbox, suspension and most major parts are correct Alfa from that period 1935 ; the chassis's origins are not 100% clear .
The bodywork was copied from my other completely original Tipo C #50013 by Paul Grist and Company and is identical to the original.
The engine is 3.8 litres with dual "Rootes" type superchargers and is reputed to produce 330 horsepower on methanol, it has a four speed transaxle and all independent suspension ( a first for Alfa ) and it weighs approximately 960kg/2112 lbs.
Look for Peter's Alfa in the Early Historic races at the Festival and visit him in the pits to see this interesting car. "
And go very well it did !
As described in the Christies catalog it was put together from various part sources by Paul Grist in the UK in the late eighties and early nineties. The running gear, engine, gearbox, suspension and most major parts are correct Alfa from that period 1935 ; the chassis's origins are not 100% clear .
The bodywork was copied from my other completely original Tipo C #50013 by Paul Grist and Company and is identical to the original.
The engine is 3.8 litres with dual "Rootes" type superchargers and is reputed to produce 330 horsepower on methanol, it has a four speed transaxle and all independent suspension ( a first for Alfa ) and it weighs approximately 960kg/2112 lbs.
Look for Peter's Alfa in the Early Historic races at the Festival and visit him in the pits to see this interesting car. "
And go very well it did !
#14
Cynic2
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- 402 posts
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Posted 01 February 2010 - 23:45
Peter Greenfield also owns 50013, having acquired it from Peter Giddings in the past few years. Giddings still retains "Frame 8" fitted with the ex-Rex Mays engine.
