40 replies to this topic

[Gary C]

am I opening up a can of worms here? Browsing thru the entry list for the HSCC's Formula Junior race at Brands Hatch on the 5th of July, I couldn't help but notice that there are TWELVE Lotus 22's entered. Has anyone any idea how many were actually made??

[Vitesse2]

77

http://www.lotuscarclub.org/types.htm

[dmj]

Interesting site! I never realized that just one Talbot Sunbeam Lotus Put Whatever Car Make You Can Remember In The Name was ever made...

[2F-001]

Can that be right? :
77 Lotus 22s
134 Lotus 23s
97 Lotus 26Rs?

Mind you, there are always plenty more of these things around than were ever made.

Not sure I believe any of the figures given there for the Seven, either.

[Vitesse2]

Dates and production numbers are estimates and are likely to be wrong. They are provided merely as a guide.

:

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Can that be right? :
77 Lotus 22s

And our own Dave Kane has one of them! A really nice example usually driven by Shairon Beale - but Dave was out in it last month at Elkhart Lake.

[2F-001]

LOL ;)

How does one arrive at a figure like 2053 as an estimate or a 'guide'?!

So, it only needs a handful of type numbers to wrong and... well...

[2F-001]

Gosh, I'm rather envious of Dave then! It's a lovely thing, and reasonably sensible to run on a hobby basis.
There used to be someone here on the Lotus Seven scene had one and he brought it along to our track events now and again - a really pretty car.

[Lotus23]

131 type 23's. More than I thought. Does anyone have an idea how many are left? The last time I saw my old car (chassis #23-S-28), it had been pretty heavily modified -- the steering wheel and chassis number plate were about the only things I recognized. That was 4 or 5 years after I'd sold it. It had been an SCCA National Champion, in the hands of one Jim Baker, when it was new.

I sold it in '66 because I was en route to Vietnam, and my dad had no room to store it in his garage. IIRC, I got $2500 for it, a fair price at the time. In those days, there was no real point to hanging onto an old racer -- they were considered "junk" after 2 or 3 years.

With 20-20 hindsight, I realize I should've kept it.

[David Birchall]

Some years ago there was advertised in Autoweek "Lotus 22 fitted with ex Scarab aluminium Buick V8 modified by RAE to 2.5 litres. First $2500 takes." I phoned the guy and as I recall he came down to $1200 immediately! I didn't buy it because I already had several projects....

[David M. Kane]

Everything Shairon and I have researched have come with the number of 77 too. Seems like a lot, but it was an extremely competi tive car. It is a joy to drive. I thank my wife for letting me have a go, after all I gave her several goes in my March 76B. She is getting cocky and wants a go in
the March 741. That is going to be a harder sell. She fears NOTHING!

[Ray Bell]

Why should the number be questioned?

This car was produced for FJr and there were even some raced in F1, there were FLibre variants (just slip in a 1340cc Ford for hillclimbs etc) and they were exported in large numbers.

It was probably, I would guess, a fortunate year for Lotus with the American market. Brabhams didn't have the likely market or marketing opportunity in the States at that early stage, but more modern FJrs than the 18 and 20 were obviously required as the cars were becoming so much quicker each year.

Australia, of course, had links with Brabham that meant that the Brabhams sold better. But there were perhaps four genuine 22s came here. Leo Geoghegan had one... or am I wrong, was his the only one? I think not... but having said that, I can't be sure of anyone else!

But replicas were built too. Bob Britton turned out a Rennmax version with different bodywork and sold them to about four others.

My guess is that between the British, European and American markets, with the volatility of designs in that particular year (by that I mean the obvious improvement over the previous models), and with Lotus having really made it as a manufacturer and Brabham being in the formative stages (orders would be placed at the end of 1961... by then only one Brabham existed, and it was called an MRD), such a number would easily be confirmed.

[2F-001]

re: the numbers... maybe I succumbed to gut-instinct too readily... the three examples I cited were all about a third higher than I in mind. The figures for the Seven don't tally with other sources which made me wary...ThereBut thinking about it, the 22 was still made after the appearence of the 27 wasn't it? so it had a longer life than it might have done. There always seems to be a load of non-genuine 26Rs around, and I didn't realise there could have been that many 23s - but I happily bow to those better informed!

[David McKinney]

The 22 design was dusted off post-27 to re-emerge as the 31 in 1964/65 for F3 which, IIRC, had a ban on monocoque chassis. I believe twelve 31s were built. Interestingly, they had '22' chassis numbers, but whereas a pukka 22 should have a number like 22-J-25, a 31 would be 22-F3-25

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The 22 design was dusted off post-27 to re-emerge as the 31 in 1964/65 for F3 which, IIRC, had a ban on monocoque chassis. I believe twelve 31s were built. Interestingly, they had '22' chassis numbers, but whereas a pukka 22 should have a number like 22-J-25, a 31 would be 22-F3-25

If they only made 12 31s (I'm not disputing that figure), then it is unlikely that one of them would have chassis number 22-F3-25!!!

I'm sure the totally original 31 I was offered a few years ago had chassis number 31-F3-xx (I think it was 8).

The 31 chassis was later dusted down again and revived as the 51 Formula Ford - of course Jim Russell school had converted several Lotus Juniors & 31s into Formula Fords, before Lotus started 'mass-producing' them.

And despite looking totally different the 61 chassis is apparently very similar as well - I think that really was the last incarnation of the 20 frame.

[Macca]

And of course Jim Russell faked up a lot of his cars, probably his older 20's, as 'F1's' for the film 'Grand Prix' which he spent much of 1966 involved with - so quite a few of them are likely to have been destroyed.

One resurfaced a couple of years ago complete with it's fake BRM H16 bodywork and was seen at Crystal Palace and Coys, and I believe is now running with genuine bodywork in FJ racing. But did any of the other film cars survive the efforts of Sarti, Aron, Stoddart and Barlini?

And how do you locate the HSCC's entry lists - are they on the web?

Paul Mackness
-----------------------------------------


"Do you ever get tired Pete - tired of the driving?"

[eldougo]

Lotus23

131 type 23's. More than I thought. Does anyone have an idea how many are left? The last time I saw my old car (chassis #23-S-28),
____________________________________

Speaking of 23,s a friend of mine Steve Fry has just completed the rebuild of the LOTUS23b
ex Lional Ayres it,s only taken some 20 years to hit the track Oran Park two weeks ago.
All good things come to those who wait .

[dbw]

i suspect the actual numbers will never really be known...as an ex- super seven and sII europa owner,i spent a lot of time pouring over books, articles and much correspondance...lists and estimates of production numbers were close but never quite the same...especially the seven, as it was produced in fits and starts with many special orders wedged in the "production line"..the europa was simular in that with no warning, "federalized" cars would appear in the chassis numbers with no apparent reason...cars were shipped to different sites.. seemingly at whim [or ,most likely ,by demand]....with my newest acqusition, an sII elite,i thought things might clear up a bit as it was a "real" production car...not so! in fact when lotus switched body suppliers in mid production,a bunch of cars were produced with 2 cars per chassis number!..the owners /tech manual wasn't made available till well into production when james allington was "given" an elite for his services to illustrate it.....and this was the "production car" side of the business that required lotus to keep track of cars...i can't even imagine how anyone could accurately list competition chassis numbers without a significant "fudge factor"...
while impressed with the work and dedication put into such a list[or any other "complete"list of car numbers for that matter] i'm afraid just exactly came out the front door [or back door or loft ] at lotus may never be exactly traced.

really shitty cars but great[if not the best] drivers... imho

[Gary C]

'And how do you locate the HSCC's entry lists - are they on the web?'
Paul ; I got hold of the FJ entry list because I'm a competitor with the HSCC in Formula Ford.

[David M. Kane]

Macca:

One of those cars was at an SVRA race last weekend. The driver Roger Seigler (I have to double-check the spelling of his last name). His
Lotus 20/22 was the James Garner chassis. The Grand Prix bodywork, unfortunately, was destroyed in a crash 30-years ago in a race crash.

[Ted Walker]

The Lotus 22 numbers were increased several years ago by a lot of un wa,nted Lotus 51s, suddenly being more valuable as FJs (wonder how that could have happened !!!!!!!!!!)

[Bladrian]

Back in the 60's I arrived at Kyalami one Saturday morning to find a friend of mine, Gene Bosman, looking very pleased with himself. "I've found a couple of tenths," he said smugly. "Watch me take the race today." Gene was racing a Lotus 23b at that time, and, whilst good enough for a podium position generally, had not yet aspired to the top step.
Come the race, Gene finished 10 seconds ahead of the runner-up. Where did his advantage come from? Well, in order to coax more power out of the engine, he'd removed the oil-scraper rings. I'm not sure how many tenths of a second he'd gained through that, but the blanket of smoke he laid down behind him all the way around the track made it next to impossible for anyone to pass him ....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by eldougo
Speaking of 23s, a friend of mine, Steve Fry, has just completed the rebuild of the LOTUS 23bex Lional Ayres it's only taken some 20 years to hit the track Oran Park two weeks ago.
All good things come to those who wait .

You mean the MRC Lotus 23?

Not a genuine Lotus at all, but a Bob Britton replica.

[eldougo]

On this day in motorsport 2nd July the day Peter Ryan died it mentioned thathe raced a LOTUS
23 in Canada ? What happened to this car is it on the list an still around the Tracks???

Cheers Doug

[arttidesco]

In the absence of the types database that was once a feature of the http://www.lotuscarclub.org/types.htm website I was wondering if any one could confirm the assertion on Wiki that 7 Lotus 22's were supplied with Twin Cam engines from the Elan series, or is that just another trap to catch out the uninformed ?

If the Elan powered 22's did get built presumably the motors were too big for F1 and certainly for Formula Junior, what category would they have been used for.

Finally wondering if anyone has any info on the Lotus 22 driven by Cristoph Bruckhardt at the Revival ?

Relevant replies maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

[RWB]

In the absence of the types database that was once a feature of the http://www.lotuscarclub.org/types.htm website I was wondering if any one could confirm the assertion on Wiki that 7 Lotus 22's were supplied with Twin Cam engines from the Elan series, or is that just another trap to catch out the uninformed ?

If the Elan powered 22's did get built presumably the motors were too big for F1 and certainly for Formula Junior, what category would they have been used for.

Finally wondering if anyone has any info on the Lotus 22 driven by Cristoph Bruckhardt at the Revival ?

Relevant replies maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

I'm told it was 22-J-17 if that helps.

[Macca]

There is a photo somewhere of a Lotus 20/22 fitted with a 1500cc engine for US Formula B or libre and which went to Jim Russell and was used in 'Grand Prix' fitted with a faux-Lotus 33 nose - I'll try and find more details later.

Paul M

[arttidesco]

Thanks Robert and Paul all information is greatly appreciated for what is turning out to be a bumper blog on the Lotus 22

[Rob Miller]

QUOTE (arttidesco @ Nov 16 2011, 16:54) *
In the absence of the types database that was once a feature of the http://www.lotuscarclub.org/types.htm website I was wondering if any one could confirm the assertion on Wiki that 7 Lotus 22's were supplied with Twin Cam engines from the Elan series, or is that just another trap to catch out the uninformed ?

If the Elan powered 22's did get built presumably the motors were too big for F1 and certainly for Formula Junior, what category would they have been used for.


It seems that the very first Elans were 1500cc.

Lotus Elan 1500

[arttidesco]

QUOTE (arttidesco @ Nov 16 2011, 16:54) *
In the absence of the types database that was once a feature of the http://www.lotuscarclub.org/types.htm website I was wondering if any one could confirm the assertion on Wiki that 7 Lotus 22's were supplied with Twin Cam engines from the Elan series, or is that just another trap to catch out the uninformed ?

If the Elan powered 22's did get built presumably the motors were too big for F1 and certainly for Formula Junior, what category would they have been used for.


It seems that the very first Elans were 1500cc.

Lotus Elan 1500

Wow ! Stand corrected Rob thanks

Would I be correct thinking the Lotus 1500 TC engine would be well out of it's depth in 1500 cc F1 circles against 156 Ferrari and Coventry Climax motors ?

[D-Type]

Wasn't there a 1500 cc US national formula (Formula B?) which was the precursor of Formula Atlantic?

And does this coincide with the South African 4-cylinder "Formula 1"?

[David McKinney]

Wasn't there a 1500 cc US national formula (Formula B?) which was the precursor of Formula Atlantic?

Yes, but not as early as 1962, when the 22 was produced. Which is not to say post-production examples could have been produced for owners (or formulae?) not wanting the monocoque models which replaced the 22. It should also be remembered that the chassis numbers of the later Lotus 31 carried a '22' prefix, so our seven twincam cars might be 31s rather than 22s

And does this coincide with the South African 4-cylinder "Formula 1"?

Yes

[arttidesco]

In the absence of something more definitive or any idea where to find something more definitive I'll not mention the seven 22's allegedly supplied with Elan TC motors for now, thanks for your comments Duncan and David

[Macca]

Here are photos of the Lotus 22 which was in 'Grand Prix' and still has the faux nose, and had extra square tubes in the cockpit supposedly for the bigger engine for Formula B - I don't know the c/n but I'm sure someone will.

Paul M

[arttidesco]

Thanks to everybody on this thread who knowingly or unknowingly contributed to my Lotus 22 blog

[Bloggsworth]

The 22 design was dusted off post-27 to re-emerge as the 31 in 1964/65 for F3 which, IIRC, had a ban on monocoque chassis. I believe twelve 31s were built. Interestingly, they had '22' chassis numbers, but whereas a pukka 22 should have a number like 22-J-25, a 31 would be 22-F3-25

And then again for the Lotus 61...

[David McKinney]

Did they have 22 prefixes too?
(I'm not being facetious)

[Bloggsworth]

Did they have 22 prefixes too?
(I'm not being facetious)

It was Lotus' "Wedge" Formula Ford, you could tell the antecedents of the chassis as the rear diaphragm was behind the drive shafts...

[David McKinney]

I'm not denying that, but it doesn't answer my question

[Bloggsworth]

I'm not denying that, but it doesn't answer my question

I stopped "collecting numbers" in 1954 - I'm sure Lotus would have put a 61 number on the chassis, they were trying to sell it as a new car, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't the same chassis as that of a Lotus 22... Around that time Lotus were getting arrogant, lazy and taking the piss out of its customers. Merlyn et al took Formula Ford seriously, and Lotus were soom out of the racing car sales business.

[Simon Hadfield]

Did they have 22 prefixes too?
(I'm not being facetious)

No, they don't. As for Lotus not taking it seriously what about the Lotus 69FF? A car so good that (as a Van Diemen) it was still winning nationally four years later? I would also point out that in the right hands a Lotus 61 could beat anything that was thrown at it in period - although I will allow that Emerson was pretty good....