13 replies to this topic

[dretceterini]

From Allesandro Silva in the Italian championship thread:

Row lists of results will show you that every single car in the 750cc and 1100cc class was a Fiat. This means really very little and do not give any grasp of how huge was the phenomenon. In truth every single car was unique and to understand things properly one has to know the following:
Chassis, engine, tuner, body, assembler>

One thing that wasn't mentioned is that many cars were built "to the order" of the owner. There were all kinds of cars that were "ordered" by a particular person.

An assembler company (such as Tinarelli) would buld a car for a certain person. A good example would be a car built for Bottazi, who was a member of the Scuderia Ambrosiana. The assembler was Tinarelli. The bottom end of the motor was Fiat. The cylinder head was designed by Roselli, who was an Alfa engineer involved with the Bimotore, than later, teamed up with Giusti to form a company called GR, that was also known as Casa 'dell Auto. (The company also made various parts and were involved in the construction of the Testadoro cars)The chassis of the car was by Gilco, and the coachwork by Colli. The final tuning was done by Volpini.

Should we really have some type of formula as to how "hot rods" like this, and even America "specials" should be called? Personally, I think we do, as without some set of rules as to naming these kinds of cars (and there are hundreds, if not thousands), it gets very confusing...

or is it good enough just to call these "Fiat specials"?

[Vitesse2]

What's the Italian for Eigenbau?

At this distance, one wonders how many of these can actually be identified. The German Eigenbaus are a minefield, and there were only a few dozen of those. The Fiat specials sound like a whole other nightmare ....

[dretceterini]

Yes, and a nightmare I have been working on with some other for many years.

Just recently a car was discovered in the eastern part of the US which was imported and raced as a Giaur from the time it came to the US, circa 1951. After review of photos of this car I'm 99% certain that this is actually the Nardi 750 BMW built in 1947 (the first "real" Nardi), that it was sold in Italy (perhaps a few times), eventually went to Taraschi and had a Giannini Fiat Topolino based G-1 motor installed, the chassis modified, and was eventually sold and sent to the US.

There are many cars that were built for one owner, sold and modified (including motor and coachwork changes) and than the same thing happed a second and third time. Very little, but some of the original car was maintained. In a sense, these cars became other cars (like the case of the Multi-Union), and they have some historical importance in every version.

We need a system as how to catalogue these cars.

[bobbo]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
What's the Italian for Eigenbau?

At this distance, one wonders how many of these can actually be identified. The German Eigenbaus are a minefield, and there were only a few dozen of those. The Fiat specials sound like a whole other nightmare ....

Yes, but if the FIAT specials are a interesting as the assorted Eigenbaus, they should be quite interesting! (And maddening!)

So, let's hear some more information!

Bobbo

[cabianca]

I think there already is a system. For historical purposes, the chassis builder is named first, and the engine follows. This allows both to be part of the historic record. Although it has been done differently in the past, i.e. Allard-Cadillacs were referred to as Cad-Allards in their day in the US, this should not be off-putting to the historian. As an example, several Ferrari models were simply known as 250 GTs. To differentiate these, historians use the terms 250 GT Boano, 250 GT Elana, 250 Pinin Farina coupe, 250 GT Tour de France, 250 GT Interim, 250 GT Short Wheelbase, 250 GTO, etc. None of these are factory designations, except the latter, but the method devised by historians lets the reader know which model was involved.

[Geoff E]

There was this thread on car nomenclature a few weeks ago:- http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=57195

[uechtel]

I am afraid it will be hard to find any completely satisfying system without getting to monster-names like Botazzi-Tinarelli-Gilco-Colli Roselli-Fiat. Also some of the cars are already well known under a "nick name" ("the" Alta Special, the Cromard Special, the Großmutter etc.) and everybody knows which car is meant by that. To give those a new name would certainly add more to the confusion than help to solve the problem.

So I think in the last consequence it´s up to you to choose the name that is best for your purposes. For example my (own private!) method is to name the chassis after the "company" responsible for the DESIGN (as far as this is known), which is not necessarily the company that actually built the chassis or put things together. Like today there have always been parts suppliers in the business and you wouldn´t call MS´s Ferrari a BBS-Momo-Fiat-Special Mouldings inc-whatsoever else-Ferrari because of that.

When the chassis is more or less taken from an already existing car I tend to place the original name behind, like Legros-Bugatti for example. I use the same combination if there have been major modifications done by somebody else in a car´s further´s career (Klenk-Veritas).

The same is with the engine. If there was only a tuner then I would tend to ignore him more or less completely in my "official" designation. But with major configuration changes done (new cylinder head, reduced or increased capacity etc.) I would turn towards "Milan-Maserati" or "AFM-Fiat" to name two examples.

And of course if you´re quick enough in sharing some of your knowledge about all these interesting little cars with the rest of the world maybe you will even become a trendsetter in name-giving...

[Don Capps]

You simply name the cars in such a way that makes sense, much as 'cabianca' suggested was used with the various 250 GT Ferrari variants. However, there may be situations were something like the "Botazzi-Tinarelli-Gilco-Colli Roselli-Fiat" nomenclature is hard to avoid! Even in this case there is perhaps some way to work it into a workable designation such as "Botazzi-Tinarelli MM 49/52 Fiat Special" for a 'recycled' version of the Special.

As long as you are as consistent as possible and the rationale of the method makes sense and tracks with reality, it will work and be accepted by others. While this isn't rocket science, it is more challenging since that endeavor at least has a taxomony....

[dretceterini]

The problem is that there are so many cars with long and continously changing histories.

Even within a "marque" like Testadoro (a group of cars built by Giusti and Roselli, and conceted to the GR/Casa dell'Auto company which produced various products, each of the nine (?) cars built has a seperate and distinct history.

All of the cars remained in their "original" state for a very short time, before changing hands. They even have interconnections with other "marques". The 2nd Testdoro called Danella (built in 1947), which had a Zagato body, eventually went to Branca, was raced in the 1953 Mille Miglia as a Fiat-Branca, than later had a Moretti motor installed and the coachwork substantially modified. The car was raced by Ubezzi in the 1955 Mille Miglia.

There are also Branca/Morettis and "pure" Morettis. The 2 cars that were entered in the Le Mans race for 1956 are really Branca/Morettis and not "pure" Morettis!

Can a car of one "marque" actually become that of another "marque"? Do you just keep adding hyphens or slashes? Should each "generation" in the history be treated as a seperate vehicle, even though it's not?

What really got me started on this was 25-30 years ago I saw lists from various Italian races of entries and results, which said the car was a "Fiat". I was curious as to what the particular car looked like.

I now have enough information to connect quite a few entry lists with a photo of a particular car, but am no where near finished with that project, even for the Mille Miglia alone. I also need to place a "title" on the car in each picture. Maybe in the next 30 years I be able to do at least part of that.

[D-Type]

If ever I make a schedule at work, I always include a column at the end headed "Comments". This allows all the odds and sods to be entered.

I can see your dilemma. As these cars are essentially specials they constantly evolved and it is difficult to decide at what point it became a new entity.

In the case you quoted each evolution or iteration of the car would have a separate entry with the links in the "Comments" column. For example, have an entry for Renault GP cars and a separate entry for BMS Dallara with the comment "used secondhand Renault tubs"

How many variables do you have? I would suggest:
Marque - what it was known as
Chassis - who made the chassis. This would not include subcontractors only where a proprietary chassis was used or adapted
Engine - the original manufacturer of the block
Tuner - the modifier of the engine. You will have to judge when an engine changes its identity, e.g. when does an Alfa modified by Conrero become a Conrero?
Body - with the Italian coachbuilding tradition this is necessary
Anything else? - I can't think of anything that makes up part of the identity of the car - exhaust would be part of tuner, gearbox doesn't change its identity, suspension might be a possibility (fitting IRS or a De Dion system for example).
But a "Comments" or "Remarks" column would be useful.

If you are setting up a MS Access database, I would heartily recommend including at least three additional blank fields for future developments as it's so difficult to add them in later.

[Don Capps]

Then again, there is perhaps some merit in just doing things the old-fashioned way and taking the time to digress momentarily as to the "nature" of that particular car -- which is why I have reverted to do my records in MS Word as opposed to MS Access (a dbase I have to like a great deal and have used -- and still use -- extensively).

The "storia" often gets lost in the rush to lay out the data (mea culpa).

[dretceterini]

Just with the Mille Miglia alone, there are some years that there are as many as 500 entries; with over 100 cars being "Fiat derivitive".

You then have to try and find a photo of that particular car. If you find a photo (and that's not an easy process), you than have to figure out what that car is.

Sometimes this is not all that difficult, but other times it is, as cars constantly change; sometimes to the point they don't look anything like the previous incarnation. With no visual connection, it then becomes virtually impossible to tie things together.

So far, I have found at least 200 "individual" cars built just in the 750cc class. Some of these cars were developed and modified to the point they virtually became another car. If I consider them "new" cars, than I have over 300 so far!

Than there are the 1100 class cars, the 1500 class car, and a few in the larger displacement classes (such as the Stanguellini 2800cc car from 1939)

As to the following suggestions by "D-Type":

Marque - what it was known as: Virtually every car was entered simply as a Fiat

Chassis - who made the chassis. This would not include subcontractors only where a proprietary chassis was used or adapted:
Many chassis were simply lihtened and modified Fiat. Tubula chassis were built by any number of companies such as Gilco and Nardi

Engine - the original manufacturer of the block:
OK, but what about the cylinder head? Most of these cars use modified Fiat blocks (and at what point does a Fiat block become a Giannini block: initially the 3rd bearings were weleded in, but later, new blocks were cast with integeral 3rd bearings) There are literally dozens of companies that made cylinder heads just for Fiat Topolino derivities!

Tuner - the modifier of the engine. You will have to judge when an engine changes its identity, e.g. when does an Alfa modified by Conrero become a Conrero?:
A BIG problem! There are cars that had Fiat Topolino blocks modified with a 3rd main bearing by Giannini, a Siata cylinder head, and were tuned by Stanguellini or others.


Body - with the Italian coachbuilding tradition this is necessary:
Coachwork was continiously modified and sometimes even replaced. What do you call a car with original coachwork that was later modified by another coachbuilder such as Moretti?

Anything else? - I can't think of anything that makes up part of the identity of the car - exhaust would be part of tuner:
Not always. Many tuners used exhusts made by Abarth, but Abarth wasn't really the tuner of the car

Gearbox doesn't change its identity: Sometimes it does have an effect though. Nardi and Casa 'dell Auto both modified gearboxes to the degree (even changing 4 speeds to 5 speeds) that they were really no longer of the original maker.

Suspension might be a possibility (fitting IRS or a De Dion system for example):
True, but Siata and other made hydraulic suspension components for "upgrading" friction systems

[Don Capps]

Engine - the original manufacturer of the block:
OK, but what about the cylinder head? Most of these cars use modified Fiat blocks (and at what point does a Fiat block become a Giannini block: initially the 3rd bearings were weleded in, but later, new blocks were cast with integeral 3rd bearings) There are literally dozens of companies that made cylinder heads just for Fiat Topolino derivities!

Tuner - the modifier of the engine. You will have to judge when an engine changes its identity, e.g. when does an Alfa modified by Conrero become a Conrero?:
A BIG problem! There are cars that had Fiat Topolino blocks modified with a 3rd main bearing by Giannini, a Siata cylinder head, and were tuned by Stanguellini or others.

My solution, which I used in the F5000 world (Traco Chevrolet), was to simply put the tuner in front of the engine -- Conrero Fiat -- and make notes as to the nitty-gritty details.

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Don Capps

My solution, which I used in the F5000 world (Traco Chevrolet), was to simply put the tuner in front of the engine -- Conrero Fiat -- and make notes as to the nitty-gritty details.

Indeed, this is still common practice today, for instance in F3, where the engines are usually named "Spiess Opel", "Sodemo Renault", "Novamotor Fiat", "TOM'S Toyota" or "HKS Mitsubishi". A practical and logical solution.

Another point on which I agree with Don: making notes as you go can only work in Word or its Web variant, flat HTML. Notes are a bitch in databases, where you would need all sorts of extra columns, most of them containing empty fields. Databases will always force you to be selective while free-flow text can be all-encompassing.