137 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

South Africa perhaps? Or an African British colony of some type?

Canada always missed out on that sight, as Henk says. But they got the Aurora Borealis... as Johnny Horton reminds us occasionally.

[Vitesse2]

No Ray, nothing like South Africa. Henk's right - it appears to be the Australian flag in the wrong colour! The Canadian was a red ensign, but had a shield with provincial badges on it. The only other colony I can think of which used the red ensign was Bermuda:

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Henk


... and Australia

And I'm confused

Where's the German flag - hidden behind the strange English colonial one perhaps??

PdeRL

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
Slightly off topic as there are no swastikas involved, but the Silver Arrows are back at German GP this weekend. As always, they are gorgeous.

Slightly more OT. The second car from the right looks more like a 1938 W154 than a 1939.

If so: (i) I wasn't aware that MB had any 1938 W154s and (ii) why does the tail have a much greater ground clearance than seen in Monkhouse's book?

[Vitesse2]

Okay, here's the Canadian flag as it was in 1936:



VAR1016: that's the 1936 programme - no Germans!

[dmj]

Australian flag isn't wrong colour - it is still the official Australian flag, albeit the maritime one. I don't know why it was used (if it was a boat race they'd have to use it and blue one would be wrong).

[Vitesse2]

Errr .... Dino ..... there were no Australian drivers in the 1936 Vanderbilt Cup. I'm not sure there were any Canadians either!

And you're right up to a point about the red ensign, but it's really rather more complicated than it first appears!

http://www.crwflags....ags/au.html#red

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....And you're right up to a point about the red ensign, but it's really rather more complicated than it first appears!

http://www.crwflags....ags/au.html#red

Indeed, I knew the Naval flag had its stars on a white background.

Maybe there was an Australian there... was it Peter White who raced in America in the thirties... at least it was one of those who contested the Australian GP of 1927? ...John Medley learned that he went to America to race in the wake of the 75th anniversary celebrations. Surprise to all...

oldtimer, perhaps it's the lack of driver and fuel load?

[oldtimer]

But is it a '38 W154? I have never seen pictures of a '38 W154 in the MB museum, and have assumed the '39 models were built on the '38 chassis. Or, have MB built up a 1938 car to keep up with the 4-ring bunch?

[Ray Bell]

Depends on whether or not they could afford Crossthwaite & Gardner's prices, I guess...

But they might have done it in house. Especially if there was an old brake drum lying around to use as a starting point.

Would be good if we had some German members as keen on M-B history as we do for the 'four ring bunch' side of things...

[Henk]

Originally posted by VAR1016
Where's the German flag - hidden behind the strange English colonial one perhaps??

That one came the following year; in the air…..

Originally posted by dbw
can someone tell me just when in the auto union history the swastika image appeared on the panel below the drivers elbow?….

…..and below the elbow.

[dmj]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Indeed, I knew the Naval flag had its stars on a white background.

Maybe there was an Australian there... was it Peter White who raced in America in the thirties... at least it was one of those who contested the Australian GP of 1927? ...John Medley learned that he went to America to race in the wake of the 75th anniversary celebrations. Surprise to all...

oldtimer, perhaps it's the lack of driver and fuel load?

Sounds sensible. They might have expected Australian entry so printed a program with the flag.

[Spaceframe]

IIRC the swastika was the logo of Danish brewers Carlsberg in the early part of the last century. Presumably they dropped it pretty rapidly when the Nazi party rose to prominence in Germany.

Carlsberg's strong beer is known as the "Elephant Beer", and even to this day four large stone elephants guard the gates of the brewery's site at Ny Carlsberg Vej (New Carlsberg Road) in Valby, a suburb in the Western part of Copenhagen.

 

Two of those elephants feature large swastikas on the side of their bodies. Usually causes quite a stir, when tourists notice this!

[Tim Murray]

Thanks Spaceframe - I remember seeing a photo of those elephants.

[Paul Parker]

Carlsberg's strong beer is known as the "Elephant Beer", and even to this day four large stone elephants guard the gates of the brewery's site at Ny Carlsberg Vej (New Carlsberg Road) in Valby, a suburb in the Western part of Copenhagen.

 

Two of those elephants feature large swastikas on the side of their bodies. Usually causes quite a stir, when tourists notice this!

 

For the benefit of those who are unaware of this symbol's origins and being lazy I will simply paste the Wikipedia entry which will explain their presence on the Carlsberg elephants, thus:

 

Swastikas have also been used in various other ancient civilizations around the world including Turkic, India, Iran, Nepal, China, Japan, Korea and Europe. It remains widely used in Indian religions, specifically in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, primarily as a tantric symbol that invokes Lakshmi - the Hindu goddess of wealth, prosperity and auspiciousness. The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" (meaning "good" or "auspicious") combined with "asti" (meaning "it is"), along with the diminutive suffix "ka." The swastika literally means "it is good." It is a common practice for Hindus to draw Swastika symbol on the doors and entrances to their houses during festivals, which is believed to symbolize an invitation to goddess Lakshmi.^[1] The name "sauwastika" is sometimes given to the left-facing arms symbol, which is a mirror image of swastika (卍).^[2]

[JAW]

AFAIR, the team SS BMW guys had both the SS runes & national makings on their sports cars & motorcycles..

Even at the I.o.M. TT in `39..

 

Hitler was a keen motorhead, & took an interest in technical aspects of racing, record breaking & military tech..

 

I have a book which contains a period advert poster for Zeppelin trans-Atlantic flights clearly showing the dreaded device too..

 

& as regards bans on swastika display in Europe, no doubt ol' Adolf would be proud of the draconian crack-down approach..

So - where's Sid Viscous when you need him for a bit of in-your-face anarchic now then,  - eh?

 

Hitler's  Gov't was the 1st to restrict tobacco sales/adverts & ban smoking in Gov't buildings, after Nazi scientists established

the link between smoking & cancer..

[JAW]

& one further thing, I recently visited the Australian War Memorial Museum, which has a splendid Bf 109G on display..

.. still in its original, WW 2 authentic camo-paint, & inc' full national markings..

 

Only a seriously deluded P.C. fool would suggest that it ought to be over-painted or obscured, I.M.O...

 

 

Funny that Spaceframe mentions Valby in Denmark, since that is my paternal family name..

Mind you, my forbears emigrated to GB via Normandy some centuries back..

 

& no, I am not affiliated with any political movements, if anyone wants to know..

Edited by JAW, 24 January 2014 - 02:18.

[Vitesse2]

AFAIR, the team SS BMW guys had both the SS runes & national makings on their sports cars & motorcycles..

Even at the I.o.M. TT in `39..

The BMW team was not SS - it was NSKK, which was a different organization. The racing BMWs sometimes (but not always) had discreet German flags on the nose. What you may be confusing this with is Huschke von Hanstein's private BMW 328, which always carried his personal number - SS333.

[JAW]

I am always ready to stand corrected & it was from memory, but I do recall a BMW sports car team pic

which had the ( driving suits/technicians overalls) prominently emblazoned with SS runes..

 

Certainly ol' uncle Adolf recognised the value in actively supporting state pride internationally via motorsports..

 

Strange that Rolls-Royce - once it had taken over Bentley - let that paragon of British motor-sporting marques languish..

[Vitesse2]

I am always ready to stand corrected & it was from memory, but I do recall a BMW sports car team pic

which had the ( driving suits/technicians overalls) prominently emblazoned with SS runes..

Gran Premio di Brescia 1940. The only driver wearing SS runes was von Hanstein. The others - except for Bäumer, who wasn't a member - wore NSKK logos. The best-known version of this picture shows Bäumer with the badge as well, but it's very obviously been 'doctored' for propaganda reasons: the original shows him without. British reports of the event say that Lurani, who also drove one of the NSKK cars, wore a BRDC badge!

[AJB]

Slightly off topic as I've not seen this thread before:-

 

1. (for Eric) I have an AIrfix Do17 dating from the 1970s which included Swastikas - never had any others in Airfix kits.

 

2. Some German planes in the Auto & Technik Museum in Sinsheim currently display Swastikas on their tails, despite the ban in Germany.

 

Alan

Edited by AJB, 26 January 2014 - 13:57.

[BRG]

What about the Italian fasces symbol?  Although it has a very ancient provenance, being a Roman symbol (IIRC six lictors bearing fasces escorted each Roman consul).  The fasces are an axe with a bundle of rods around the axe-handle.  This became the symbol of Mussolini's Fascist Party in Italy - hence the name.

 

Did this symbol ever appear on any Italian cars?

[JAW]

& what about the Nippon Hinomaru & sunburst flag/symbols, they seem to have escaped opprobrium - Hai! - Banzai!

[terry mcgrath]

The swastika appeared on both the Auto Unions and Mercedes Benz's at the 1937 Vanderbilt Cup Races in the USA

Auto Union under cockpit opening and on the W125 Benz's on the tail section.

During the playing of the German National anthem the mechanics and team members all did the heil Hitler salute.

The ERA that competed in the1936 event sported the Union Jack

terry

[Vitesse2]

The swastika appeared on both the Auto Unions and Mercedes Benz's at the 1937 Vanderbilt Cup Races in the USA

Auto Union under cockpit opening and on the W125 Benz's on the tail section.

During the playing of the German National anthem the mechanics and team members all did the heil Hitler salute.

The ERA that competed in the1936 event sported the Union Jack

terry

Indeed. But that was at the specific request of the Americans. All cars were required to carry a representation of their entrant's national flag - even the home drivers, most of whose cars sported stars and stripes shields. The Italian entries all had Italian flags on the scuttle.

 

The fact that the Germans  gave the salute is unsurprising, since it was just what Germans did at the time, wherever they were, when their national anthem was played: Nuvolari and the other Italians gave the less obvious Italian fascist salute when their anthem was played and - just as happens today - I'm pretty sure most, if not all, the Americans would have stood with their hands over their hearts during the rendering of Star Spangled Banner.

[JAW]

Sensible & excellently informative replies there V2, many thanks..

[wolf sun]

Slightly off topic as I've not seen this thread before:-

 

1. (for Eric) I have an AIrfix Do17 dating from the 1970s which included Swastikas - never had any others in Airfix kits.

 

2. Some German planes in the Auto & Technik Museum in Sinsheim currently display Swastikas on their tails, despite the ban in Germany.

 

Alan

 

Alan, the ban on swastikas in Germany only extends to the use of the symbol with the intention of furthering nazi ideology.

[63Corvette]

How exactly, do film makers make period correct WWII movies if they don't use swastikas? If they DO use them, then are those same movies illegal in Germany and France???

[wolf sun]

Apparently the wording of my post is too ambiguous.

 

I don't know about France, but in Germany you are allowed to display nazi symbols unless they are displayed to promote nazi ideology.

[wolf sun]

I know, it's wikipedia, but in this particular case it should suffice:

 

https://en.wikipedia...uch_section_86a

[Vitesse2]

In both Germany and France there are what are termed in English 'cultural exemptions' regarding the display of the swastika. However, I have to say that I do feel that in Germany at least it is sometimes taken a little too seriously in order to sanitise the past.

 

But maybe that's because I'm not German.

[FLB]

How exactly, do film makers make period correct WWII movies if they don't use swastikas? If they DO use them, then are those same movies illegal in Germany and France???

They're legal, but there is a reluctance to use them. Being a trekker (a Star Trek fan), the example I know best is the episode Patterns of Force, where Kirk, Spock and McCoy land on a planet where a former Starfleet history professor had created a world with (some) Nazi ideology and paraphernalia. The episode was understandably banned in Germany, until 1995.

 

https://en.wikipedia...riginal_Series)

 

The attitiude towards the 1933-1945 period is somewhat changing in Germany towards a more relaxed approach. There was a massively popular novel published in 2012 that made fun of the idea of Hitler coming back from the dead in modern Germany.

 

http://www.telegraph...ller-chart.html

[wolf sun]

In both Germany and France there are what are termed in English 'cultural exemptions' regarding the display of the swastika. However, I have to say that I do feel that in Germany at least it is sometimes taken a little too seriously in order to sanitise the past.

 

But maybe that's because I'm not German.

 

There is a lot to be said about what is an immensely complex matter, and I would be very interested to hear your views in full, Richard - I do acknowledge though that we'd need a "political" sub-forum for that. (And no, I'm not suggesting we should have such a thing!)

[Vitesse2]

Well, even just sticking to motor sport there are several cans of worms, most of which stretch back to the immediate post-war period and the de-Nazification era when people were very keen to bury potentially embarrassing stuff. This photo from the 1939 Berlin Motor Show is quite well-known. Not much to object to, even today, especially since Adolf's swastika isn't visible, being on his left arm. Rudi with an NSKK badge on his overall - not something you normally see, and it does have a look of impermanence.

 

But I suspect not many people will have seen this one before. Taken the same evening:

 

 

Caratsch in full NSKK dress uniform, complete with ceremonial dagger. I have a similar 1940 one of Lang, Kluge, Fleischmann and Stuck which I can't post here. The first three are in NSKK uniforms, Stuck in Kriegsmarine.

[FLB]

There is a lot to be said about what is an immensely complex matter, and I would be very interested to hear your views in full, Richard - I do acknowledge though that we'd need a "political" sub-forum for that. (And no, I'm not suggesting we should have such a thing!)

Ah, but there *is* such a political sub-forum 

 

http://forums.autosp...e-paddock-club/

[FLB]

Well, even just sticking to motor sport there are several cans of worms, most of which stretch back to the immediate post-war period and the de-Nazification era when people were very keen to bury potentially embarrassing stuff. This photo from the 1939 Berlin Motor Show is quite well-known. Not much to object to, even today, especially since Adolf's swastika isn't visible, being on his left arm. Rudi with an NSKK badge on his overall - not something you normally see, and it does have a look of impermanence.

 

But I suspect not many people will have seen this one before. Taken the same evening:

 

 

Caratsch in full NSKK dress uniform, complete with ceremonial dagger. I have a similar 1940 one of Lang, Kluge, Fleischmann and Stuck which I can't post here. The first three are in NSKK uniforms, Stuck in Kriegsmarine.

 

... which is fascinating in itself considering the problems Stuck's wife had because of her Jewish ancestry!

Edited by FLB, 25 July 2015 - 21:40.

[JoBo]

Gran Premio di Brescia 1940. The only driver wearing SS runes was von Hanstein. The others - except for Bäumer, who wasn't a member - wore NSKK logos. The best-known version of this picture shows Bäumer with the badge as well, but it's very obviously been 'doctored' for propaganda reasons: the original shows him without. British reports of the event say that Lurani, who also drove one of the NSKK cars, wore a BRDC badge!

 

My uncle, Walter Bäumer Sen. refused to wear the NSKK-logo on his race suit in the 1940 MM. For this he got problems with Hühnlein who wanted to replace him the day before the race but they had no other driver available in Brescia. Upon the successful race and back in Germany he received a letter by the NSKK who ordered him to come to Berlin for an interview.

My unce became "sick" and could not do the trip to Herr Hühnlein...

Little later the NSKK had lost more or less all influence as the war as going on and this case was not discussed by them anymore.

Walter`s 2nd and last appearence with and for BMW in Romania came because BMW wanted him - and his race suit was still without any Nazi-logo!

 

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 25 July 2015 - 22:23.

[Vitesse2]

... which is fascinating in itself considering the problems Stuck's wife had because of her Jewish ancestry!

Indeed - but of course his personal connections to Hitler were no doubt a help. The picture dates to early 1940. Lang, Fleischmann, Kluge and Stuck were all NSKK-declared European Champions for 1939 - in Stuck's case for motorboating, which seems to have been a title dreamed up by Hühnlein, partly based on his win in one race and perhaps in acknowledgement of his speed records in Tempo.