62 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

http://www.indystar....1-3209-092.html

It would appear as if the new new "Chevy" Generation four was a lot better than the one that was designed inhouse.

Of course, this is the still born CART 3.5 atmo engine Cosworth developed last year. It is a derivitive of the turbo version, enlarged without a turbo. Cosworth had permission from Ford to do the engine but Ford were on the fence in regards to put their name and funding behind it. They could have put their name on the engine like they did on the turbo this year (which was in doubt for a while), but CART changed the rules before they could say one way or the other.

This has to be incredibly embarassing for General Motors. Going to your major rival's engineering company for help makes it evident that engine that GM put out is hopeless. We already knew it was the least powerful and most thirsty, but they must not have the expertice or the will to develop their own engine. MAJOR PR problem for GM.

It might be enough to save a few teams next year, particurally if GMAC or AC Delco magically appear on the sidepods on some of the cars (like GMAC on Sara Fisher's machine).

[BRG]

Originally posted by Megatron
MAJOR PR problem for GM.

Do you really think that Mr/Ms Average Carbuyer is going to know (let alone care) about the history of the engine? She/he is just going to see the story "Chevrolet win Indy 500" and go out to buy one. Poor slob!

[Jordan191]

Now if they can only bring those engines over to CART we could have another factor to make reunification easier.

Besides turbos suck

[Damop]

Originally posted by Jordan191
Besides turbos suck

No they don't, the compress.

[flyer72]

I think it is very brave of GM to accept that they failed in designing an engine that was good enough to be on par with Honda and Toyota.

[Teez]

Didn't Chevy own part of Cosworth at one point? IIRC Cosworth already produced an engine for Chevy years ago. Honda also used Cosworth a few years ago (unless I'm misremembering).

[Megatron]

Chevy owned 25% of Ilmor until December 1993.

The engines that are now Honda's are maintained by Ilmor, which in fairness, is a Mercedes corp now. Those engines are Honda/Ilmors, with the exception of Andretti Green which gets (supposedly) the same spec straight from HPD in California.

[indycarjunkie]

Actually the Honda & Toyota engines that are kicking Chevy's ass are modified NA engines from when CART was wishy-washy and couldn't decide on what engine rules they would use. Its logical that Chevy would try to buy the Ford version to become competitive again, but I would have thought it would be badged Chevy-Cosworths so the engineers that designed this thing would get some credit for any turnaround in Chevrolet's program this may cause.

[Don Capps]

Cosworth produced a variant from the Vega in 1972, the EAA, and also did some tweaking for a Cosworth Vega that Chevrolet marketed at the time.

[mattybinyon]

The Cosworth Vega was a 1975 and 1976 model with an aluminum block and head, 4 cylinder, 16 valve, fuel injected engine that was prone to warping and meltdowns.

What originally began in 1971 as a 12.5:1 compression 180HP lightweight high performance engine was killed by government regulations including the scarcity of high octane leaded fuels. It arrived in 75 as a 8.5:1 110HP weakling with a mild cam.

Current Chevy competition manager Herb Fischel was also involved in this original Cosworth project that Chevy embarked upon. He went back to what he knew would work.

(Don, I recall the EAA being the original engine they were working on that took a couple years of testing, and few split blocks, to evolve into the engine in the "Cosworth Twin Cam".)

[Teez]

Doh! Ilmor, yeah. Oops! Thanks for the info, guys.

[Don Capps]

The EAA was supposed to be an F2 engine, but it didn't quite work out and was shleved by 1973. So, instead Cosworth developed the Vega TC for Chevy in 1973/1974 and put it on the street as a 1975 model. It was their first non-Ford project and it paid Cosworth quite well. I had a Cosworth Vega for awhile -- until someone ran into it while parked at a stop sign and totaled it. A nice little car, especially compared to the usual disaster that the Vegas were -- unlike the other Vegas it had a decent radiator and so the block didn't leak oil like a sieve after it got some use on it. Quality control was not great, but the engine was pretty strong.

I ordered the heavy duty kit so I got the bigger radiator and the suspension package, otherwise the Cossie blocks leaked and warped like the rest. It was also my first American car with radials.

[sschinning]

As i can remember were the Ford engines always build in England by Cosworth.
Were the Chevy and after that Mercedes engines always build in England by Ilmor
Were the Lola, Reynard and Penske(!) chassis build in England.

What about the IRL Dalara chassis? Is that build in Italy? I know the G-Force is build in the US for a change.

Anyway, building open wheel race-cars and their engines seem not to be a typical American trade.....

[Megatron]

Oddly, the Chevies and Cosworths (Ford and Ilmor) were usually built in England with a rebuild center in the US.

Honda and Toyota's CART programs were more American than Ford or Chevy ever dared to be, with very little imput from Japan. Both were designed and maintained in California. Honda for a short time had an R&D engine that went to Walker from Japan, but it was mostly an "American" outfit.

Dallara's are made in Italy and the GForce's main operations have been moved to Georgia since Panoz bought them.

Though hardly an "American" chassis, I always felt Newman Hauss came close because they would either A) get parts weeks in advance ahead of other teams or B) use their resources to develop parts for their Lola and their Lola only.

[Locai]

I believe that the G-Force chassis was originally designed and built in the U.K. Panoz has now moved production to Georgia, but are still designed in the U.K.

Rahal was known for heavily modifying their "stock" CART chassis. I'm not sure where they did their chassis work, but I would assume it was done in the U.S.

In other IRL chassis info...Riley & Scott built their lousy IRL chassis in Indianapolis and the still-born Falcon was designed and built in North Carolina.

[Megatron]

The R&S was one of the best RACE cars in that era, but it couldn't qualify worth anything with way too much drag. After Hemelgarn couldn't get Lazier about 212 in practice, he went with Dalllara.

The car finished second and third at Disney, then won Phoniex, DNQ'd with Johnny Unser at Indy, then was never seen again.

It was a victim of the IRL rules. They got the car wrong, but IRL rules don't permit much chassis developement on the aero side during the season, so they had to watch their customers go bye.

[Locai]

Yeah, I remember now.

I was recalling how it couldn't get up to speed at Indy. I remember the announcers harping on how it was underdeveloped and too slow.

[laba-laba]

i have some Qs.
why chevy need ford engine ? there is no better engine owned by chevy ?. Is chevy IRL engine is more powerfull chevy engine ?

my own anwer is chevy engine is suck ???

[ForzaF1]

Yes. Chevy engine is suck.

[indycarjunkie]

Chevy engine is boat anchor. Chevy needs Ford because they are down on horsepower and Ford needs chevy to sell their ex-CART normally asparated engine to recover lost R&D money.

[random]

Originally posted by indycarjunkie
Chevy engine is boat anchor. Chevy needs Ford because they are down on horsepower and Ford needs chevy to sell their ex-CART normally asparated engine to recover lost R&D money.

I doubt Ford Cosworth really need the money this will bring in. But it is a good "stick in the eye" to GM.

Ford has had very close relationships with Cosworth for decades. But if I recall correctly, a few years ago when VW bought up Vickers, Cosworth was part in the deal. But as so much of the intellectual property at Cosworth was actually owned by Ford, Cosworth Racing wasn't of much use to VW or any other concern and had to be shuttered or sold to Ford. So VW sold Cosworth to Ford at the bargain price of around $150 million.

[Henri Greuter]

Well, the Ford goes out as a Chevy this weekend.

Funny that Chevy needs an engine built by a company that saved CART for the time being and now saves some of the US image within IRL against the Japs. (OK, The Honda is basicly a rebadged Ilmor engine too)
Still, very funny if you think about all this.

Makes you wonder, with Infinity left for near dead over the past years '97-02 and left the building, if they had remained in IRL, where should they have been if the engine company that beat the hell out of them (GM brands) are already reduced to field filling specials.

Before I get crushed for these comments and thoughts: I saw Sam Hornish do a great job at Indy with his Chevy and this confirms to me that here we have a US born driver which I would love to see in F1. But likely we'll see him earn kudo's and a reputation within NASCAR....

Henri Greuter

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think the Cosworth will be an improvement (probably a big one) but im not sure it will be enough. Its been a while since a Cosworth was top dog in any OW series. Ford-Cosworth hasnt won an OW title in quite some time (I think 1995 for F1 and CART)

[indycarjunkie]

Actually, the Infinity was the motor to beat last year. It certainly was the fastest motor in the field. It just had some reliability problems with the electrical system. If Tomas could keep his car off the walls last year Infinity might have been the constructor champion in the IRL. I have a theory they pulled out to save face in Japan in case they couldn't compete well against Honda and Toyota.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think the Cosworth will be an improvement (probably a big one) but im not sure it will be enough. Its been a while since a Cosworth was top dog in any OW series. Ford-Cosworth hasnt won an OW title in quite some time (I think 1995 for F1 and CART)

I believe 94 for f1 and 2000 for CART if I am not very much mistaken.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah, forgot Benetton had Renaults in 95


My fuzzy CART memory is

95 Something-Ford Villeneuve
96 Reynard-Honda Vasser
97 Reynard-Honda Zanardi
98 Reynard-Honda Zanardi
99 Reynard-Honda Montoya
00 Reynard-Honda De Ferran
01 Reynard-Honda De Ferran
02 Lola-Toyota Da Matta

[ehagar]

I was thinking of that goofy manufacturing championship. I believe they won in 2000. They were usually second until Toyota got their act together.

[Dudley]

Cosworth also produced the late 80s Vauxhall Astra GTE for GM.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think the Cosworth will be an improvement (probably a big one) but im not sure it will be enough. Its been a while since a Cosworth was top dog in any OW series. Ford-Cosworth hasnt won an OW title in quite some time (I think 1995 for F1 and CART)

They were also underfunded. Honda and TOyota spent big time bucks on the engine AND big time bucks securing top teams. Basically, Ford gave Cosworth money for the engine and that was it. Sweetheart deals with Toyota and Honda might be worth millions, the best Ford could do might be free engines to their "works" team, like N/H and later Rahal.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Chevy sucked becuase they didnt commit engineering and finances to their current IRL engine. I dont see that changing much with Cosworth, nor do I see Cosworth getting out of a situation similar to their CART efforts where a US manufacturer gives them just enough to be competitive.

[Megatron]

I think your being too easy on GM, they got it wrong because HOnda and Toyota are in a different kind of competition than Nissan/Infiniti.

The only kind words about the Generation III engine is that it is quite light, even lighter when a rod goes through the block, but the Cosworth is a little heavier than the Chevrolet.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Megatron
I think your being too easy on GM, they got it wrong because HOnda and Toyota are in a different kind of competition than Nissan/Infiniti.

Yeah, but the Nissan engine eventually was better. Probably why Team Cheever was so competitive.

[Manson]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

My fuzzy CART memory is

95 Something-Ford Villeneuve

95 Reynard - Ford - Villeneuve (Engineered by Tony Cicale)

[Colin]

Friday Practice Times from Michigan

Hornish 1st with the Chevy Cosworth. The rest of the Chevy runners are 17th-22nd (last). Not one in between. Michigan is a horsepower track in case you were wondering.

Geez, the "Chevy" Chevy sucks, and the Cosworth engine was sitting on the shelf the whole time. It remains to be seen how reliable it is of course.

[Pikachu Racing]

I rate Sam Hornish very highly and IMO, currently the best oval racer as of right now. Consider how he can pushed the underpower Chevy to the limit. Look at last week Nashville race. He dissected his way through the field and put the car in the lead for few laps. He was one of best cars on the track and set the 3rd fastest lap of the race at 209.176. He also had excellent runs on short tracks. His drive at Richmond was unbelievable. Twice he brushed the wall and still went his way dissecting the field. If the engine didn't quit at Indy, he would have finished in the top 5. Let's see how good this Chevy-Cosworth is. What if he pulls off a win with it.

Go Sam Hornish!

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Pikachu Racing
I rate Sam Hornish very highly and IMO, currently the best oval racer as of right now. Consider how he can pushed the underpower Chevy to the limit. Look at last week Nashville race. He dissected his way through the field and put the car in the lead for few laps. He was one of best cars on the track and set the 3rd fastest lap of the race at 209.176. He also had excellent runs on short tracks. His drive at Richmond was unbelievable. Twice he brushed the wall and still went his way dissecting the field. If the engine didn't quit at Indy, he would have finished in the top 5. Let's see how good this Chevy-Cosworth is. What if he pulls off a win with it.

Go Sam Hornish!

He has become quite good, although he was already a pretty good oval racer in Atlantics. So-so on road courses alas.

[Megatron]

Keep in mind that Ford may have won only two CART drivers titles (Mansell & Villeneueve), but they came close a few other times with Patrick, Rahal, and Newman Hauss.

Considering that they were competing for the most part against Honda and Toyota, their budget really tight, they did an excelent job.

What I want to know is this:

When Ford was more or less buying out Cosworth, they began to try and take credit for anything Cosworth. The Cosworth DFX Indy Car engine, which never had Ford badging, now became the "Ford Cosworth DFX" and Ford had ten more Indy wins.

If Chevy win with this thing, will Ford brag about it? I wouldn't put it past them. Didn't they also take credit for Jaguar's Le Mans wins in their coffee table book? Granted Ford owns Jaguar and hates Chevy, but it would make for some nifty advertising.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by ehagar


Yeah, but the Nissan engine eventually was better. Probably why Team Cheever was so competitive.

The general feeling is that last year the Infiniti TWR was a much better engine powerwise, not so good on fuel, better on weight, and not as good on reliability. The difference was that the teams running Chevies all were top teams, and Cheever was really the only credible team with the Infiniti engine, unless you consider Robbie Buhl and Sara Fisher a credible team (Hattori and later Billy Boat also had Infiniti power for a short time).

This year, Panther and Mernards have been leading the 17-22 qualifying bridge for Chevy Gen III, with the occasional entrance into the top ten or even five when handling comes into effect. Now top teams are running other engines, and it's starting to show how bad the GM engine program, in house, is.

[Pikachu Racing]

*IRL Michigan Spoilers. You been warned!*




The Chevy Cosworth held up. Hornish ran away from the field most of the race. Too bad he lost the lead on the last lap and finished 2nd in a close one. Go job for Alex Barron for winning his 2nd IRL race. It's amazing why Barron still manage couldn't get a full time ride anywhere. This guy has one of top untapped talents that has championship material. This is a decent race.

Go get them next time Sam Hornish!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Funny moment 1 - Pre Race - GM honcho says the new engine is good because it has the same technology the new GM road cars engine has

Funny moment 2 - postrace - Scheckter calls it a Ford Cosworth

[mhferrari]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Funny moment 1 - Pre Race - GM honcho says the new engine is good because it has the same technology the new GM road cars engine has

Funny moment 2 - postrace - Scheckter calls it a Ford Cosworth

I saw moment #1, I wish I saw moment #2.

[Manson]

They kept calling it the Generation Four Chevy, which sounded like Generation FORD the first time I heard it. Sounds like a keeper. The Chevy Generation Ford held up well for Hornish!

[Megatron]

The whole race, they build up the "Chevy" name and how its a new engine, and then Tomas tells the truth on them.

Good to see Ford back in the IRL. LOL.

Can you feel the love? Perhaps if this works out, next year Mercedes can rebadge old BMW engines in F1?

[Lateralus42]

What was up with that shirtless guy they got on the air?? That was freaky.

I think the IRL made a HUGE mistake trying to get their golden boy to run up front, they pissed off alot of the other major players in the process. If I was Toyota or Honda, I would get their next 'gen' engine in the cars ASAP, there is nothing the IRL can do to stop them now.

[917k]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lateralus42
[B]What was up with that shirtless guy they got on the air?? That was freaky.

I think the IRL made a HUGE mistake trying to get their golden boy to run up front, they pissed off alot of the other major players in the process. If I was Toyota or Honda, I would get their next 'gen' engine in the cars ASAP, there is nothing the IRL can do to stop them now.





''The more competition the better. Bring 'em on," said Lee White, president of Toyota Racing Development. "We need General Motors to stay in this series so we have no problem with Cosworth. We've raced them before."

[Lateralus42]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 917k
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lateralus42
[B]What was up with that shirtless guy they got on the air?? That was freaky.

I think the IRL made a HUGE mistake trying to get their golden boy to run up front, they pissed off alot of the other major players in the process. If I was Toyota or Honda, I would get their next 'gen' engine in the cars ASAP, there is nothing the IRL can do to stop them now.





''The more competition the better. Bring 'em on," said Lee White, president of Toyota Racing Development. "We need General Motors to stay in this series so we have no problem with Cosworth. We've raced them before." [/QUOTE]

I think you made my point. Toyota isnt going to sit around and watch 'Chevy' go to the front, expect them to make some big moves. They want to beat GM, not have GM lap them because they got a new shiny engine from England.

[Locai]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Funny moment 1 - Pre Race - GM honcho says the new engine is good because it has the same technology the new GM road cars engine has

Funny moment 2 - postrace - Scheckter calls it a Ford Cosworth

I caught the last segment of the race. I was really hoping that Hornish would hold on for the win. I missed Scheckter's comment.

Just one more reason to think that GM is a total joke of an auto company.

[Locai]

Originally posted by Manson
They kept calling it the Generation Four Chevy, which sounded like Generation FORD the first time I heard it. Sounds like a keeper. The Chevy Generation Ford held up well for Hornish!

I thought I heard that, too. I swear that the broadcasters were slipping "Ford" in there.


One other thing: The "body count" for the IRL has been pretty steep this year. I think they've had more serious injuries than NASCAR, CART, F1, and NHRA combined. Once the Chevy guys all get the new engine and Toyota and Honda go through their normal development programs, what is that going to do to the track speeds? The IRL aero package pretty much prevents anybody from breaking away from the pack. If I were a driver, I'd seriously worry about not just getting hurt but getting killed out there! Backing into concrete at 200mph+ can't be good for your health.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Funny moment 1 - Pre Race - GM honcho says the new engine is good because it has the same technology the new GM road cars engine has

Are you serious?

[Jordan191]

Didn't a toyota win? I like the idea that the chevys have a more powerful engine. at least guys like Hornish can now compete and all the ex CART drivers and all the ex cart drivers' fans can see he's the real deal and not some IRL crap driver.