31 replies to this topic

[tedmna]

I just ordered--after a year of researching a variety of options--a 2004 Audi S4 V8. The journos have praised the "V8 sound" of the new car. I know V8's have a distinctive sound, but why don't all even-firing engines sound essentially the same? Personally I would have to believe much of the sound of any engine is tuned by the manufacturer to produce the right sound as well as to optimise power, so that really the "sound" is as much artificial as real. Any insights are welcome!

Ted

[BRIAN GLOVER]

What other cars did you look at? Cadillac is coming out with its 340 LS1 hp V8 with a T56 six speed xmission in the 04 CTS next month. Lots of German and Australian engineering to make it work properly, but all wheel drive Audi will get you to the ski slope. The Caddy platform is the same as the Holden Commadore V8 and the Manaro. The Manaro comes to the States next year as a Pontiac GTO.
V8s sound great, don't they? The F360 and Maserati 4000 have the same engine, but the flat firing order on the Ferrari makes it sound like a Toyota whereas the Massa sounds like a Chevy.

The LS1 found in the Vette and the same engine that is going into the Caddy, doesnt sound as good as the earlier LT1 or LT4 because the firing order is different.

The little 4.6 4 cam 4 valve V8 in the Mustang sounds really sweet. I have a Z06 405, but the sound is not right. I had a 87 P928s and it sounded like an early 68-69 302 Z28 Camaro, the sweetest sound of any V8. In other words, like Mozart.

My dad and my wife have the Olds Aurura 4.0. This sweet V8 is the basis for the IRL Chevy V8 and it too sings a pretty song.
NASCARs sound just great and when Montoya and Gordon swopped rides at Indy, I didnt know which sound I prefered between the Williams BMW and the Chevy SB2.
Have you been to a NASCAR race and heard 45 big V8s at 9000 rpm all at once?. Oh man! Oh man!

I saw a Alpha Montreal the other day cruising down the beach, it was smoking like hell, but that sound. Puccini I think, or was it Verdi?

The best sound ever heard on this planet, is the sound of a Rolls Royce Merlin as found in a Spitfire or a P51 Mustang. The Packard Merlin found in P51s at the Reno races spin at 3000 rpm and push out close to 4000 hp. Tears will come to your eyes.
Ferarris sports cars of the 60s sounded beatifull also, but new Ferrari V12s sound awful.

Originally posted by tedmna
I just ordered--after a year of researching a variety of options--a 2004 Audi S4 V8. The journos have praised the "V8 sound" of the new car. I know V8's have a distinctive sound, but why don't all even-firing engines sound essentially the same? Personally I would have to believe much of the sound of any engine is tuned by the manufacturer to produce the right sound as well as to optimise power, so that really the "sound" is as much artificial as real. Any insights are welcome!

Ted

[tedmna]

Hey Brian--good to hear from you!

Per your rec' i tried a vette as well as the m3 i discussed with you last year, as well as a subaru wrx sti.

I liked the Audi for its all-season ability as well as the fact it seats 4 comfortably. The Cadillac was a consideration, but having AWD here was an advantage, plus I've had a bunch of Audis.

By the way, my son should solo soon. That will be a big day.

[Jordan191]

Merlin engine is one sweet sound

I must be the only guy who liked the original IRL engine sounds.

and I really really fell in love with sweet Mugen v10 sound circa 1997

o/~ memories o/~

P.S

Turbos suck .. compression is just a myth

[BRIAN GLOVER]

A big day it will be indeed. What is he flying?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tedmna
[B]Hey Brian--good to hear from you!
By the way, my son should solo soon. That will be a big day.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by tedmna
I just ordered--after a year of researching a variety of options--a 2004 Audi S4 V8. The journos have praised the "V8 sound" of the new car. I know V8's have a distinctive sound, but why don't all even-firing engines sound essentially the same? Personally I would have to believe much of the sound of any engine is tuned by the manufacturer to produce the right sound as well as to optimise power, so that really the "sound" is as much artificial as real. Any insights are welcome!

Here's where you learn about this subject...

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=50722

[tedmna]

Thanks alot RB! I'll dig around!

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER


The best sound ever heard on this planet, is the sound of a Rolls Royce Merlin as found in a Spitfire or a P51 Mustang. The Packard Merlin found in P51s at the Reno races spin at 3000 rpm and push out close to 4000 hp. Tears will come to your eyes.

I'm not a great fan of the woofly V-8 sound although I do love the 1.5 litre BRM engine's sound - indeed all the 1.5 litre and 2-litre 1960's V-8s sound excellent - as does that in the Alfa-Romeo T33. A friend of mine has a theory that race engines never sounded better than they did in the early 1970s - Ferrari 312 etc. He feels that we have lost something with the increase in revs.

Turning to the 4000HP Merlin; I would love to hear one of those - indeed it would be excellent if Lord Hives and Sir Henry Royce could come back and hear it too! And in "It was fun" Tony Rudd waxes lyrical about the fury of a Merlin on the test bed: "running 30% rich, exhausts glowing red, burning 180 gallons of fuel per hour and making 1730HP" What would he make of the 4000HP version I wonder?

I recall that the R-R engineers arranged the exhausts on the Spitfire to provide a degree of thrust which was reckoned to be worth the equivalent of 150HP. Are similar techniques used on today's racers? And how many horsepower is the thrust worth now?

PdeRL

[desmo]

VAR1016:

I recall that the R-R engineers arranged the exhausts on the Spitfire to provide a degree of thrust which was reckoned to be worth the equivalent of 150HP. Are similar techniques used on today's racers? And how many horsepower is the thrust worth now?

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=39490

There's some good discussion of the concept on this thread.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by desmo
VAR1016:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=39490

There's some good discussion of the concept on this thread.

Yes thanks Desmo; Tony Rudd says that cynics at the factory christened the 2Crecy" the "Waterloo"....

It would seem that exhaust thrust bears a roughly linear relationship to horsepower, so we can assume that if the modern racing Mustangs have their stubs configured appropriately, then they should be getting about 400HP extra from the exhaust.

Gosh!!

PdeRL

[beepbeep]

Talking about aviation piston engines, i thing that Napier Sabre (24-cylinder high-revving H-engine) sounds the best!

There was a soundclip of one of those on the internet, i'll try to find it.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by beepbeep
Talking about aviation piston engines, i thing that Napier Sabre (24-cylinder high-revving H-engine) sounds the best!

There was a soundclip of one of those on the internet, i'll try to find it.

I'd love to hear that!

PdeRL

[beepbeep]

Here:
http://user.tninet.s...m843e/sound.htm

[Jordan191]

dude


the Merlin kicks that Napier's ass

[beepbeep]

Check out Napier Sabre design...it's much more advanced engine than Merlin...sleeve-valves and all. It gave more power from substantially less volume.

Here's more info:
http://www.eagle.ca/.../tempest/sabre/

At best, 3500 HP was achieved at 3850 rpm...

That's from 36 liter displacement ... to be compared to biggest piston engine up to date , Wasp Major, that gave roughly the same from 72 liter.

[Jordan191]

Originally posted by beepbeep
Check out Napier Sabre design...it's much more advanced engine than Merlin...sleeve-valves and all. It gave more power from substantially less volume.

Here's more info:
http://www.eagle.ca/.../tempest/sabre/

At best, 3500 HP was achieved at 3850 rpm...

That's from 36 liter displacement ... to be compared to biggest piston engine up to date , Wasp Major, that gave roughly the same from 72 liter.

uhm this thread is about sound not power .. that Merlin has a oh , so sweet sound.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by beepbeep
Check out Napier Sabre design...it's much more advanced engine than Merlin...sleeve-valves and all. It gave more power from substantially less volume.

Here's more info:
http://www.eagle.ca/.../tempest/sabre/

At best, 3500 HP was achieved at 3850 rpm...

That's from 36 liter displacement ... to be compared to biggest piston engine up to date , Wasp Major, that gave roughly the same from 72 liter.

I liked the sound I must say, and I like Merlins too.
Mind you the Sabre was a maintenance nightmare for the RAF so I understand.
PdeRL

[desmo]

Originally posted by VAR1016


Mind you the Sabre was a maintenance nightmare for the RAF so I understand.
PdeRL

Ya think?

[The Force Ferrari]

V8s sound really distinctive it's kind of like the AK-47 nothing else sounds like it.

I was messing around with an old Subaru Legacy 2.0l boxster engine this week the back box in it was gone and so it sounded like something special. But it still wasn't anything like the nose that an 8 makes.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by desmo





Ya think?

That's it: "Just whip the heads off will you?"!

PdeRL

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by desmo



Ya think?

Any moment now you'll trot out the old diesel again, won't you?

Trouble with it is that the turbines in the exhaust would have stifled the sound...

[aportinga]

Originally posted by tedmna
I just ordered--after a year of researching a variety of options--a 2004 Audi S4 V8. The journos have praised the "V8 sound" of the new car. I know V8's have a distinctive sound, but why don't all even-firing engines sound essentially the same? Personally I would have to believe much of the sound of any engine is tuned by the manufacturer to produce the right sound as well as to optimise power, so that really the "sound" is as much artificial as real. Any insights are welcome!

Ted

Damn we saw one of those Audi's (MFG Plates) at Menards 2 nights ago..... It's forking nice

[Chui]

Originally posted by tedmna
I just ordered--after a year of researching a variety of options--a 2004 Audi S4 V8. The journos have praised the "V8 sound" of the new car. I know V8's have a distinctive sound, but why don't all even-firing engines sound essentially the same? Personally I would have to believe much of the sound of any engine is tuned by the manufacturer to produce the right sound as well as to optimise power, so that really the "sound" is as much artificial as real. Any insights are welcome!

Ted

They cannot sound the same due to the (vibration) Firing Order. For a six cylinder it is 3rd Order. For an Eight its 4th Order. For a four cylinder it's 2nd order and for a 12 it's 6th order.

What you hear inside the car is multiple things, actually: Engine radiated noise, Induction Orifice noise and Tailpipe orifice noise. For both the tailpipe and induction there are frequency ranges of interest for a sporty or powerful sound. For the induction I believe it's a function of the acoustic length of the trumpets or runners. For the muffler it's a matter of chamber(s) volume. The mufflers are rather complex while the intake is much more simple. Whether or not there is 'bank-to-bank' firing on the V8 will alter the perceived sound.

At any rate most car manufacturers achieve the sound you hear from the tailpipe. So the exhaust manifolds and collector combined with any "X-pipe or "H" pipe (or not) will affect what you hear. I imagine the Audi has true dual exhausts with or without communication with each other.

I personally prefer induction sound to tailpipe sound and I think it should dominate the sound at wide open throttle applications. Ever listen to a Honda B-Series I-4 engine with an AEM cold-air induction system? Beautiful, deep, sonorous and ultimately raucous at 8,000 + rpm. If anyone has a BMW with an inline 6 they should purchase a cold air induction kit and try it. You won't go back to the OEM setup.

Keep in mind that the 360 Modena sounds much like my Integra Type R at some engine speeds under WOT and essentially it "is" two inline four cylinder engines to the ear.

[Chui]

Originally posted by tedmna
Personally I would have to believe much of the sound of any engine is tuned by the manufacturer to produce the right sound as well as to optimise power, so that really the "sound" is as much artificial as real. Any insights are welcome!

Ted

Without giving anything away I work in P/T Sound Quality and I think that power and sound go together. What you perceive to be powerful IS, in fact powerful. And there are differing methods of achieving power. V-Twin versus Inline Four? V-12 versus V8? Inline 6 versus Flat-6? Inline Four versus V-6? Normally aspirated or supercharged? Exhaust or belt driven? We can all think of powerful examples of each configuration. And they all sound powerful. The DOHC inline 4s and 12s are rather revvy, though the 360 M is certainly different, shrieking it's way to 8,500 rpm.

What you're asking is about PSYCHOACOUSTICS. Emphasis on the "psychological" aspects of it. There are frequency ranges that when emphasized impart visual imagery of "powerful", "sporty" and "refined". There is some overlap obviously, but the regions are more or less distinct. The rate in which the engine revs is also important to most of us motorsport guy's psyche for "sporty" (which is not the same as "powerful", btw).

Can't say much more. There are several recent (within the last 3 years) SAE Papers written by AVL, Honda and BMW that go into more detail. Read those and you'll have a better understanding.

[peebo]

First time Ive used the bulletin board. I have a 2004 V8 S4. You wont be disappointed, it makes a fantastic noise. I would particularly recommend second gear 3500-7000 rpm. Oh, and it goes quite well too. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. The run down to Goodwood was even more fun this year.

[tedmna]

Good to hear, peebo.

BTW--good to hear from you Chui. Hope things are well.

Ted

[Jonas]

Hi!
I wonder if someone could tell me if the new Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione Turbocharged V8 has a 90 or 180 degree crank? Is the engine a completely new design or is it related to the Ferrari/Maserati (which comes with different cranks..) V8?

[DoS]

Originally posted by Chui
.

I personally prefer induction sound to tailpipe sound and I think it should dominate the sound at wide open throttle applications. Ever listen to a Honda B-Series I-4 engine with an AEM cold-air induction system? Beautiful, deep, sonorous and ultimately raucous at 8,000 + rpm. If anyone has a BMW with an inline 6 they should purchase a cold air induction kit and try it. You won't go back to the OEM setup.

Keep in mind that the 360 Modena sounds much like my Integra Type R at some engine speeds under WOT and essentially it "is" two inline four cylinder engines to the ear.

I still remember the time i removed the filter from my Corsa C GSi ! Of course without any mods the sound would be crap but i have changed the inlet manifold with a "plenum" + cams + management. The sound with no filter was awesome for an inline 4 at 1.8 L only ! It was a high pitch roar that would turn very sonorous at 5000 and above 7000 it would get raucous !! Exactly as you described it

[RTH]

Originally posted by Jonas
Hi!
I wonder if someone could tell me if the new Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione Turbocharged V8 has a 90 or 180 degree crank? Is the engine a completely new design or is it related to the Ferrari/Maserati (which comes with different cranks..) V8?

There you have it , the flat plane crank gives a less traditional V8 'Wuffle' is smoother and will rev higher more easily than the dual plane crank you find on typically the american V8 which gives more low down torque characteristics and the' American film 'sound.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by RTH


There you have it , the flat plane crank gives a less traditional V8 'Wuffle' is smoother and will rev higher more easily than the dual plane crank you find on typically the american V8 which gives more low down torque characteristics and the' American film 'sound.

You'll have Marion Anderson after you!

A 90 degree V-8 crankshaft will provide better ultimate balance than a "flat" crank. A 180 degree - "flat" crank will provide a degree of secondary shake that is predicated by a number of factors: bore/stroke ratio, weight of reciprocating parts, con-rod/stroke ratio etc. In many cases, designers have opted for a "flat crankshaft" since calculations show that the shake is either minimal or at least acceptable in the application.

After all, if a "flat" crankshaft were better, since it is presumably easier to make and probably ligher than a 90 degree one, then all manufacturers would use them.

The flat crank allows one to treat a V-8 as two "fours" and therefore a better exhaust system is more easily possible.

PdeRL

[Chui]

"The flat crank allows one to treat a V-8 as two "fours" and therefore a better exhaust system is more easily possible."

Same for intake.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Chui
"The flat crank allows one to treat a V-8 as two "fours" and therefore a better exhaust system is more easily possible."

Same for intake.

Yes, but on a racing engine, there will be one throttle per cylinder, so this is really academic; coupling of the exhaust is very tricky on a 90 degree crankshaft engine.

PdeRL