Your'e all welcome to my homepage to take a look at Hans' GIANT list of Hill Climb Winners 1897-1949 and I promise you'll be inpressed!
You'll find it at:
http://www.kolumbus....ellman/hcw0.htm
Hillclimb winners list 1897-1949 is up on the 'net
Started by
Leif Snellman
, Jul 17 2003 18:44
255 replies to this topic
#1
Leif Snellman
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 18:44
Well, Hans Etzrodt has done it again!
Your'e all welcome to my homepage to take a look at Hans' GIANT list of Hill Climb Winners 1897-1949 and I promise you'll be inpressed!
You'll find it at:
http://www.kolumbus....ellman/hcw0.htm
Your'e all welcome to my homepage to take a look at Hans' GIANT list of Hill Climb Winners 1897-1949 and I promise you'll be inpressed!
You'll find it at:
http://www.kolumbus....ellman/hcw0.htm
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#2
Egon Thurner
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 18:51
WOW !! Finally !!
GREAT JOB !!!
Hans, thank you for that great birthday present
GREAT JOB !!!
Hans, thank you for that great birthday present
#3
Don Capps
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 18:53
Wow! to Hans! And ditto to Leif for providing a plaform for such work to be displayed!
to Hans! And ditto to Leif for providing a plaform for such work to be displayed!
#4
Dennis Hockenbury
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 19:07
While I am not much of a hill climb specialist, I can certainly appreciate how much work went into compiling this comprehensive listing. Hans, another amazing accomplishment, and please accept my admiration for undertaking such a project.
It is always nice to know that I can reference this impressive work at Leif's website. I visit often.
It is always nice to know that I can reference this impressive work at Leif's website. I visit often.
#5
Ray Bell
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 21:43
Major work, well done!
Though I am surprised that the Manly/Harbord/Brookvale event of May 15, 1926 wasn't included. After all, Hans did start a thread questioning the issue, and all was answered.
Though I am surprised that the Manly/Harbord/Brookvale event of May 15, 1926 wasn't included. After all, Hans did start a thread questioning the issue, and all was answered.
#6
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 22:54
Ray – I am truly sorry that you feel betrayed with the data displayed at present or rather the lack of it. I had no bad intentions and I hope you can forgive me, mate.
All others – If you know of any events not yet included, it could be as simple as lack of knowledge on my part or I overlooked something that I should have seen or I saw it and forgot about it or even a line got deleted accidentally when I worked on the list overtired and without concentration, which happened more than once. I have made an attempt to show whatever was available to me at that time and therefore I depend on outside help.
You can help me in two ways.
1.) Please inform me, where on the Internet or at TNF (thread address and the post number) you want me to look for additional information. Please help me and do not give vague information as in Ray’s post, which causes confusion and helps very little.
2.) Since you know from the list which kind of data is required, you can post here YOUR data with relevant source information, please.
All others – If you know of any events not yet included, it could be as simple as lack of knowledge on my part or I overlooked something that I should have seen or I saw it and forgot about it or even a line got deleted accidentally when I worked on the list overtired and without concentration, which happened more than once. I have made an attempt to show whatever was available to me at that time and therefore I depend on outside help.
You can help me in two ways.
1.) Please inform me, where on the Internet or at TNF (thread address and the post number) you want me to look for additional information. Please help me and do not give vague information as in Ray’s post, which causes confusion and helps very little.
2.) Since you know from the list which kind of data is required, you can post here YOUR data with relevant source information, please.
#7
Vitesse2
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 23:09
Hans - Congratulations on a remarkable piece of work!
One small niggle though: it's "chronological"
One small niggle though: it's "chronological"
#8
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 23:10
Ray – the June 15, 1926 Brookvale hill climb appears in both, the chronological and the alphabetical list.
Here the source information to that event:
David McKinney on Apr 13,2003 at <http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=55683> of TNF, post # 27: Below are some early Australian events, identified by state rather than nearest town. Principal sources are articles in Australian Motor Sports and other Australian monthly magazines from 1945 onwards; I have omitted a number of references to specific events won by people such as Charlie East and Hope Bartlett in Bugattis, and by the famous Mrs J A S Jones Alfa Romeo 6C-1750, which annoyingly give no mention of the year. Other sources include Half a Century of Speed by Barry Lake, Type Forty Pty Ltd 1998) and, for WA events, Around the Houses by Terry Walker, Racing Car News Pty Ltd 1980).I’d be very surprised if this list encompasses as much as 20% of the events held.: 1926, 15/6 Brookvale (NSW) - abandoned after fatal accident ----
John Medley on Apr 29, 2003 at <http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=55683> of TNF, post # 53: The list below is by no means complete, is biased towards NSW, some dates are uncertain, and comes from contemporary magazines {Australian Motorist, Australian Auto Trade Journal, Motor in Australia, The Car....} and newspapers {Sydney Morning Herald...}, and more modern books {Bob King Bugattis in Australasia, Vintage Sports Car Club histories, South Australian Sporting Car Club history...}. To my knowledge hill climbs that were part of a reliability trial or rally are marked *. State is shown N for New South Wales, Q for Queensland, V for Victoria, T for Tasmania, S for South Australia, W for Western Australia. Some annual events {eg: Mount Tarrangower / Tarrengower} 1920's - 1940's are not shown. Fastest time of day {ftd} was not always the winner, rather a handicap based on formula {hcp}. Hill distances were known to vary. So, E&OE...
first instalment) 1926, 15/05 Brookvale N * F Parle Vauxhall made the day's first run, then AV Turner's stripped Type 30 Bugatti the second,only to fatally injure the driver in a finishing line accident. Hillclimb abandoned. ----
Here the source information to that event:
David McKinney on Apr 13,2003 at <http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=55683> of TNF, post # 27: Below are some early Australian events, identified by state rather than nearest town. Principal sources are articles in Australian Motor Sports and other Australian monthly magazines from 1945 onwards; I have omitted a number of references to specific events won by people such as Charlie East and Hope Bartlett in Bugattis, and by the famous Mrs J A S Jones Alfa Romeo 6C-1750, which annoyingly give no mention of the year. Other sources include Half a Century of Speed by Barry Lake, Type Forty Pty Ltd 1998) and, for WA events, Around the Houses by Terry Walker, Racing Car News Pty Ltd 1980).I’d be very surprised if this list encompasses as much as 20% of the events held.: 1926, 15/6 Brookvale (NSW) - abandoned after fatal accident ----
John Medley on Apr 29, 2003 at <http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=55683> of TNF, post # 53: The list below is by no means complete, is biased towards NSW, some dates are uncertain, and comes from contemporary magazines {Australian Motorist, Australian Auto Trade Journal, Motor in Australia, The Car....} and newspapers {Sydney Morning Herald...}, and more modern books {Bob King Bugattis in Australasia, Vintage Sports Car Club histories, South Australian Sporting Car Club history...}. To my knowledge hill climbs that were part of a reliability trial or rally are marked *. State is shown N for New South Wales, Q for Queensland, V for Victoria, T for Tasmania, S for South Australia, W for Western Australia. Some annual events {eg: Mount Tarrangower / Tarrengower} 1920's - 1940's are not shown. Fastest time of day {ftd} was not always the winner, rather a handicap based on formula {hcp}. Hill distances were known to vary. So, E&OE...
first instalment) 1926, 15/05 Brookvale N * F Parle Vauxhall made the day's first run, then AV Turner's stripped Type 30 Bugatti the second,only to fatally injure the driver in a finishing line accident. Hillclimb abandoned. ----
#9
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 23:28
Thanks a lot, Richard.Originally posted by Vitesse2
... it's "chronological"
Will correct it a.s.a.p.
#10
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 17 July 2003 - 23:41
Ray – so it was May 15, 1926, not June.
Here the relevant source information.
David McKinney on Apr 13,2003 at <http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=55683> of TNF, post # 27: ...1926, 15/6 Brookvale (NSW) - abandoned after fatal accident ----
John Medley on Apr 29, 2003 at <http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=55683> of TNF, post # 53: ...1926, 15/05 Brookvale N * F Parle Vauxhall made the day's first run, then AV Turner's stripped Type 30 Bugatti the second,only to fatally injure the driver in a finishing line accident. Hillclimb abandoned. ----
Dick Willis at TNF thread <http://www.atlasf1.c...897#post1260897> provided date of death and first names of driver ----
John Medley on May 11, 2003, at TNF thread <http://www.atlasf1.c...897#post1260897> provided further details about the crash and death: Apparently he arrived in blazer and scarf over his tennis clothes, intending to return to the tennis courts after his 'climb. I have the date as 15 May 1926. My handwritten notes (from 'Motor in Australia') from long ago say " AV Turner died Manly Hospital May16 as the result of injuries received at Brookvale Hillclimb the previous day. His was the second car away, covered the 660 yard course at 70 mph average, then hit a bump, he was thrown from his seat, lost control, and hit a picket fence. He was picked up unconscious, but failed to recover. Survived by widow and 2 children. Buried Manly Cemetery May 18".
I have seen photos of the car and surrounds after the accident. He hit the picket fence end-on and many pickets lie under the remarkably undamaged car. The fatal injury was a blow to the head of the very exposed driver.
He was the outstanding Australian driver of his day, his competition career spanning 1907(probably earlier) to 1926.
I believe Albert Valentine were the given names and agree with David that Archie rings a bell as his nickname but can’t find anything on that at the moment ----
Here the relevant source information.
David McKinney on Apr 13,2003 at <http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=55683> of TNF, post # 27: ...1926, 15/6 Brookvale (NSW) - abandoned after fatal accident ----
John Medley on Apr 29, 2003 at <http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=55683> of TNF, post # 53: ...1926, 15/05 Brookvale N * F Parle Vauxhall made the day's first run, then AV Turner's stripped Type 30 Bugatti the second,only to fatally injure the driver in a finishing line accident. Hillclimb abandoned. ----
Dick Willis at TNF thread <http://www.atlasf1.c...897#post1260897> provided date of death and first names of driver ----
John Medley on May 11, 2003, at TNF thread <http://www.atlasf1.c...897#post1260897> provided further details about the crash and death: Apparently he arrived in blazer and scarf over his tennis clothes, intending to return to the tennis courts after his 'climb. I have the date as 15 May 1926. My handwritten notes (from 'Motor in Australia') from long ago say " AV Turner died Manly Hospital May16 as the result of injuries received at Brookvale Hillclimb the previous day. His was the second car away, covered the 660 yard course at 70 mph average, then hit a bump, he was thrown from his seat, lost control, and hit a picket fence. He was picked up unconscious, but failed to recover. Survived by widow and 2 children. Buried Manly Cemetery May 18".
I have seen photos of the car and surrounds after the accident. He hit the picket fence end-on and many pickets lie under the remarkably undamaged car. The fatal injury was a blow to the head of the very exposed driver.
He was the outstanding Australian driver of his day, his competition career spanning 1907(probably earlier) to 1926.
I believe Albert Valentine were the given names and agree with David that Archie rings a bell as his nickname but can’t find anything on that at the moment ----
#11
Ray Bell
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 01:45
Okay, my surfing pal... I looked in the May list having checked that thread to see what the date was...
I still have to go to the scene of the debacle and check out the actual course. And I'm waiting for a volunteer to check the Manly Daily for information leading up to the day.
I still have to go to the scene of the debacle and check out the actual course. And I'm waiting for a volunteer to check the Manly Daily for information leading up to the day.
#12
Ron Scoma
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 03:22
Hans and Leif:
WOW !!
There are no words....
Thank you.
Ron Scoma
WOW !!
There are no words....
Thank you.
Ron Scoma
#13
Leif Snellman
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 06:47
Thats my fault!Originally posted by Vitesse2
One small niggle though: it's "chronological"
#14
David McKinney
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 08:07
Congratulations, Hans
I'll have some more stuff for you over the next day or two
In the meantime, I hope not too many people object to Craigantlet being listed as IRL
I'll have some more stuff for you over the next day or two
In the meantime, I hope not too many people object to Craigantlet being listed as IRL
#15
quintin cloud
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 09:53
cool great work Leif 
#16
Pete Stowe
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 19:09
Brilliant job, Hans
A couple of points though:
Naish House Aug 1945
ftd was by Walter Watkins in the 996cc Watkins Nash special in 51.6 sec. Course length 800 yards.
Sources Autocar, Motor & just about every other magazine, except for Motor Sport which got it wrong. While Gerard did eventually do a run in 49 sec, this was an extra unofficial run, and didn’t count.
Also, 1949 May 28 it should be Blandford Camp.
A couple of points though:
Naish House Aug 1945
ftd was by Walter Watkins in the 996cc Watkins Nash special in 51.6 sec. Course length 800 yards.
Sources Autocar, Motor & just about every other magazine, except for Motor Sport which got it wrong. While Gerard did eventually do a run in 49 sec, this was an extra unofficial run, and didn’t count.
Also, 1949 May 28 it should be Blandford Camp.
#17
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 21:22
Thanks for the compliment, Pete. I don't know if it was really brilliant to copy the available information but I know the job took quite a bit of time.
Thank you for your additional data, sources and corrections, we will plug it into the list a.s.a.p.
Thank you for your additional data, sources and corrections, we will plug it into the list a.s.a.p.
#18
Vitesse2
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 21:39
Pete: that Naish House anomaly has showed up before, but I don't think we ever definitely established that Gerard's run was unofficial:
http://www.atlasf1.c...highlight=Naish
http://www.atlasf1.c...highlight=Naish
#19
Pete Stowe
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 07:11
Richard,
I have several contemporary reports, to briefly quote from just one, from Autocar:
"Gerard brought out the ERA again for an unofficial attempt and, becoming more used to car and course, did a magnificent run in 49 seconds."
Later reports, eg from the October Filton Sprint, all refer to Watkins setting ftd (for cars, Falconer's m/c setting overall fastest time), as do all other later local references, including the organising club (Bristol MC&LCC) publications. The only report that suggests otherwise was Motor Sport, which was a less detailed report than others (& also has Falconers time as 48 sec, whereas everyone elsehas it 48.6). Given time I can dig out these refs, but I am in no doubt that Watkins officially set the fastest car time at Naish.
I have several contemporary reports, to briefly quote from just one, from Autocar:
"Gerard brought out the ERA again for an unofficial attempt and, becoming more used to car and course, did a magnificent run in 49 seconds."
Later reports, eg from the October Filton Sprint, all refer to Watkins setting ftd (for cars, Falconer's m/c setting overall fastest time), as do all other later local references, including the organising club (Bristol MC&LCC) publications. The only report that suggests otherwise was Motor Sport, which was a less detailed report than others (& also has Falconers time as 48 sec, whereas everyone elsehas it 48.6). Given time I can dig out these refs, but I am in no doubt that Watkins officially set the fastest car time at Naish.
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#20
Vitesse2
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 10:16
Okay, thanks for that Pete. But while we're on the subject of Bristol area hillclimbs, I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that there was a pre-WW1 event at Ston Easton House, which is just down the road from me. Does that ring any bells with you, or am I imagining it?
#21
David McKinney
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 11:06
Some additions and alterations:
First, I can confirm that Bert Hadley (Austin 7) was outright winner at Craigantlet (NI - not IRL) in both 1936 and 1937
Confirmation of two 1946 dates: Val des Terres 5/8 and Prescott 22/9
Allard’s mount for the 12/6/49 Prescott was not his Steyr-Allard, but the prototype J2 sportscar (so was presumably not 3.7 litres)
I can also add the following for events in the British Isles (with apologies for their lack of completeness)
Principal sources: contemporary UK magazines, Chris Mason's Uphill Racers, Green Dust by Brendan Lynch
1931
Dancer's End (GB)
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Craigantlet (NI)...Nash, Dick....The Terror
Croft (NI)...Sullivan, Billy...Lea-Francis
1932
Dancer's End (GB)
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Croft (NI) ...tie...Montgomery, W D ...Lea-Francis
Croft (NI) ...tie...Sloane, H W...Wolseley
Craigantlet (NI)...Sullivan, Billy...Lea-Francis
Mount Venus (IRL)...Kavanagh, Billy...Austin 7
1933
Dancer's End (GB)
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Ballybannon (NI)...Ferguson, Victor...MG
Craigantlet (NI)...Hall, Eddie ...MG K3
-/3 De Selby (IRL)...Kavanagh, Billy...Austin 7
Mount Venus (IRL) ...Kavanagh, Billy...Austin 7
1934
Dancer's End (GB)
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Kinneil (GB) ...McCredie, Jimmy...Sunbeam
Craigantlet (NI)...Hall, Eddie ...MG K3
1935
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Wetherby Grange (GB)
Kinneil (GB)...Alexander, R A...Ford V8
Kilternan (IRL)...Statham, George...Ford V8 special
1936
11/7 Wetherby Grange (GB)...Peter Whitehead...ERA
Kinneil (GB) ...Weston, T S ...MG
Haggerston Castle (GB)...Weston, T S...MG
Kiltarnen (IRL)...Yule, David...Austin 7
Kiltarnen (IRL)...Gallagher, Redmond...USR
1937
Dancer's End (GB)
9/5 Wetherby Grange (GB)...Williams, H J P...MG K3
11/11 Wetherby Grange (GB)...Williams, H J P...MG K3
Kinneil (GB)....Meikle, T W...BMW
18/9 (Scotland) (GB)...Flint, J...BMW (or 1st in cl)
Kiltarnen (IRL)...McArthur, Alex...MG K3
1938
Dancer's End (GB)
Wetherby Grange (GB)
14/5 Kinneil (GB)
Craigantlet (NI)...Hadley, Bert...Austin 7
?? (IRL)...McQuillan, Bill...USR
Ballinascorney (IRL)...McQuillan, Bill...McQ Special
1939
Dancer's End (GB)
Great Auclum (GB)
Trengwainton (GB)
25/6 Burgfield (GB)
Wetherby Grange (GB)...Fane, Fane....Frazer Nash
13/5 Bo’ness (GB)...Moncrieff, G J W....Riley
20/5 Kinneil (GB)...Goodall, W A G...BMW
23/9 Ballinascorney (IRL) ...McArthur, Alex...MG K3
Kiltarnen (IRL)...McArthur, Alex...MG K3
1940
Kiltarnen (IRL)...McArthur, Alex...MG K3
1946
11/5 Bo’ness (GB)...Bean, Noel...SS100
14/9 Kiltarnen (IRL)....Graham, Hector...MG K3
1947
Great Auclum (GB)...Onslow-Barnett, Leslie...Mercury Special
Trengwainton (GB) ...Onslow-Barnett, Leslie...Mercury Special
Fordingbridge (GB)...Onslow-Barnett, Leslie...Mercury Special
Bo’ness (GB) ...Chassels, Mirrlees ...Frazer Nash Special
-/3 Ballinascorney (IRL)...Graham, Hector...MG K3
Kiltarnen (IRL)...Graham, Hector...MG K3
1948
5/6 Stanmer Park (GB)....Gerard, Bob...ERA
Great Auclum (GB)...Wharton, Ken...Wharton Special
Horndean (GB)...Leonard, Lionel...MG Special
18/9 Kilakee (NI)...Baird, Bobbie...MG K3
-/9 Knockagh (NI)...Baird, Bobbie...MG K3
Enniskerry (IRL)
1949
Great Auclum (GB)...Brandon, Eric...Cooper-JAP 1000
Lydstep (GB) ...Moor, Jack...Wasp 500
-/3 Knockagh (NI)...Kyle, Harry...MG K3
Knockagh (NI)...Baird, Bobbie...Baird-Meteorite
-/5 Enniskerry (IRL)...Lindsay, Chris...Ford Special
-/7 Downhill (IRL)
First, I can confirm that Bert Hadley (Austin 7) was outright winner at Craigantlet (NI - not IRL) in both 1936 and 1937
Confirmation of two 1946 dates: Val des Terres 5/8 and Prescott 22/9
Allard’s mount for the 12/6/49 Prescott was not his Steyr-Allard, but the prototype J2 sportscar (so was presumably not 3.7 litres)
I can also add the following for events in the British Isles (with apologies for their lack of completeness)
Principal sources: contemporary UK magazines, Chris Mason's Uphill Racers, Green Dust by Brendan Lynch
1931
Dancer's End (GB)
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Craigantlet (NI)...Nash, Dick....The Terror
Croft (NI)...Sullivan, Billy...Lea-Francis
1932
Dancer's End (GB)
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Croft (NI) ...tie...Montgomery, W D ...Lea-Francis
Croft (NI) ...tie...Sloane, H W...Wolseley
Craigantlet (NI)...Sullivan, Billy...Lea-Francis
Mount Venus (IRL)...Kavanagh, Billy...Austin 7
1933
Dancer's End (GB)
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Ballybannon (NI)...Ferguson, Victor...MG
Craigantlet (NI)...Hall, Eddie ...MG K3
-/3 De Selby (IRL)...Kavanagh, Billy...Austin 7
Mount Venus (IRL) ...Kavanagh, Billy...Austin 7
1934
Dancer's End (GB)
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Kinneil (GB) ...McCredie, Jimmy...Sunbeam
Craigantlet (NI)...Hall, Eddie ...MG K3
1935
Chalfont St Peter (GB)
Wetherby Grange (GB)
Kinneil (GB)...Alexander, R A...Ford V8
Kilternan (IRL)...Statham, George...Ford V8 special
1936
11/7 Wetherby Grange (GB)...Peter Whitehead...ERA
Kinneil (GB) ...Weston, T S ...MG
Haggerston Castle (GB)...Weston, T S...MG
Kiltarnen (IRL)...Yule, David...Austin 7
Kiltarnen (IRL)...Gallagher, Redmond...USR
1937
Dancer's End (GB)
9/5 Wetherby Grange (GB)...Williams, H J P...MG K3
11/11 Wetherby Grange (GB)...Williams, H J P...MG K3
Kinneil (GB)....Meikle, T W...BMW
18/9 (Scotland) (GB)...Flint, J...BMW (or 1st in cl)
Kiltarnen (IRL)...McArthur, Alex...MG K3
1938
Dancer's End (GB)
Wetherby Grange (GB)
14/5 Kinneil (GB)
Craigantlet (NI)...Hadley, Bert...Austin 7
?? (IRL)...McQuillan, Bill...USR
Ballinascorney (IRL)...McQuillan, Bill...McQ Special
1939
Dancer's End (GB)
Great Auclum (GB)
Trengwainton (GB)
25/6 Burgfield (GB)
Wetherby Grange (GB)...Fane, Fane....Frazer Nash
13/5 Bo’ness (GB)...Moncrieff, G J W....Riley
20/5 Kinneil (GB)...Goodall, W A G...BMW
23/9 Ballinascorney (IRL) ...McArthur, Alex...MG K3
Kiltarnen (IRL)...McArthur, Alex...MG K3
1940
Kiltarnen (IRL)...McArthur, Alex...MG K3
1946
11/5 Bo’ness (GB)...Bean, Noel...SS100
14/9 Kiltarnen (IRL)....Graham, Hector...MG K3
1947
Great Auclum (GB)...Onslow-Barnett, Leslie...Mercury Special
Trengwainton (GB) ...Onslow-Barnett, Leslie...Mercury Special
Fordingbridge (GB)...Onslow-Barnett, Leslie...Mercury Special
Bo’ness (GB) ...Chassels, Mirrlees ...Frazer Nash Special
-/3 Ballinascorney (IRL)...Graham, Hector...MG K3
Kiltarnen (IRL)...Graham, Hector...MG K3
1948
5/6 Stanmer Park (GB)....Gerard, Bob...ERA
Great Auclum (GB)...Wharton, Ken...Wharton Special
Horndean (GB)...Leonard, Lionel...MG Special
18/9 Kilakee (NI)...Baird, Bobbie...MG K3
-/9 Knockagh (NI)...Baird, Bobbie...MG K3
Enniskerry (IRL)
1949
Great Auclum (GB)...Brandon, Eric...Cooper-JAP 1000
Lydstep (GB) ...Moor, Jack...Wasp 500
-/3 Knockagh (NI)...Kyle, Harry...MG K3
Knockagh (NI)...Baird, Bobbie...Baird-Meteorite
-/5 Enniskerry (IRL)...Lindsay, Chris...Ford Special
-/7 Downhill (IRL)
#22
Vitesse2
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 11:51
David: I think two of those 1939 references are to the same event - the nearest village to Great Auclum is Burghfield.
#23
David McKinney
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 12:15
Thanks Richard - a long-held mystery solved
#24
humphries
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 18:18
Hans
A very useful compilation. Congratulations.
For many years I have been collecting and collating hill-climb and sprints stats along with the circuit races. My tabulation of the results are based on the first six overall. Continually back-filling and revising I have only got up to 1975. I will check my tables and see if I can add anything or fill any gaps. Italian events first.
05/09/48 I Agordo-Forcelle Aurine (AC Belluno) the winner was Clocchiatti BMW 328 13' 20.5
18/08/46 I Antignamo- Monte Burrone (AC Livorno) Amerigo Pardini Fiat 1100 no time known
La Ascoli-Monterocco (RACI di Ascoli) an addition
19/05/29 I Gioacchino Leonardi Chrysler (Sports) ...............2' 40.0
11/05/30 II Diego de Sterlich Alfa Romeo 1750(Sports) .......6' 42.6 (9.0km)
19/06/32 III Guglielmo Carraroli Alfa Romeo 8C 2300(Spts) 5' 04.4
04/06/33 IV Lelio Pellegrini Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 (Sports).....5' 18.6
15/07/34 V Luigi Premoli Bmp-Maserati (Racing)...................5' 31.4
30/06/35 VI Piero Taruffi Maserati (Racing)..........................11' 13.4
III Atrami-Ravello Bellucci's time was 5' 11.6
The date for 1948 Biella-Oropa was 27/06
Bobbio-Passo del Penice (AC Piacenza) was first held on 09/06/29 and was won by Luigi di Modrone in a Bugatti 37A (Racing) no time known. 1930 was 2nd edition etc
Bologna-Roncrio (AC Bologna) addition
??/10/27 I Ugo Steffanelli car and time not known
06/10/29 II Otello Salvatori Lancia Lambda (Sports) 3'58.6
The date for 1948 Bolzano 04/07
11/10/25 La Coroglio-Capo di Posillipo (AC Napoli) (1.6km) Pasquale Croce Bugatti T22 1' 28.6
I have the 1929 La Cortina winner's first name as Aloisio Zironda
21/08/49 Fasano. I think a repeat blip has crept in. Winner Roberto Vallone Ferrari 166 Inter 5' 14.8
??/07?/38 Colle della Maddalena Mario Tadini Alfa Romeo (Sports) 6' 45.0
21/04/00 Madonna del Pilone. Wasn't Biscaretti on a tricycle? Edward Stead in a Daimler was the fastest of the cars in 9' 28.0
Coppa della Mengara ( L'Auto Moto Club Perugia) two more events
13/09/25 III Guiseppe Vallemani Bugatti 37 (Sports) 16' 44.0
10/06/26 IV Luigi Fagioli Salmson 1100 .....................14' 50.4
Messina-Colle San Rizzo, Coppa Inverno (AC Messina)
II edition 03/02/29 won by Santi de Pasquale Bugatti (Touring) 11' 34.8, the 1949 climb was the 3rd
There was a 5th Margellina-Posillipo on 07?/06/48 won by Giovanni Rocco Alfa Romeo (Sports) in 4' 47.0
Monte Mario (AC Roma), addition
??/03/27 I Alberto Trivellato Bugatti 35 (Racing)....... 1' 21.6
02/03/47 II Guido Scagliarini Stanguellini-Fiat (Spts) 1' 15.8
II Coppa Pierazzi, (30.0km) Biondetti's time 19' 13.4
More to come.
John
A very useful compilation. Congratulations.
For many years I have been collecting and collating hill-climb and sprints stats along with the circuit races. My tabulation of the results are based on the first six overall. Continually back-filling and revising I have only got up to 1975. I will check my tables and see if I can add anything or fill any gaps. Italian events first.
05/09/48 I Agordo-Forcelle Aurine (AC Belluno) the winner was Clocchiatti BMW 328 13' 20.5
18/08/46 I Antignamo- Monte Burrone (AC Livorno) Amerigo Pardini Fiat 1100 no time known
La Ascoli-Monterocco (RACI di Ascoli) an addition
19/05/29 I Gioacchino Leonardi Chrysler (Sports) ...............2' 40.0
11/05/30 II Diego de Sterlich Alfa Romeo 1750(Sports) .......6' 42.6 (9.0km)
19/06/32 III Guglielmo Carraroli Alfa Romeo 8C 2300(Spts) 5' 04.4
04/06/33 IV Lelio Pellegrini Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 (Sports).....5' 18.6
15/07/34 V Luigi Premoli Bmp-Maserati (Racing)...................5' 31.4
30/06/35 VI Piero Taruffi Maserati (Racing)..........................11' 13.4
III Atrami-Ravello Bellucci's time was 5' 11.6
The date for 1948 Biella-Oropa was 27/06
Bobbio-Passo del Penice (AC Piacenza) was first held on 09/06/29 and was won by Luigi di Modrone in a Bugatti 37A (Racing) no time known. 1930 was 2nd edition etc
Bologna-Roncrio (AC Bologna) addition
??/10/27 I Ugo Steffanelli car and time not known
06/10/29 II Otello Salvatori Lancia Lambda (Sports) 3'58.6
The date for 1948 Bolzano 04/07
11/10/25 La Coroglio-Capo di Posillipo (AC Napoli) (1.6km) Pasquale Croce Bugatti T22 1' 28.6
I have the 1929 La Cortina winner's first name as Aloisio Zironda
21/08/49 Fasano. I think a repeat blip has crept in. Winner Roberto Vallone Ferrari 166 Inter 5' 14.8
??/07?/38 Colle della Maddalena Mario Tadini Alfa Romeo (Sports) 6' 45.0
21/04/00 Madonna del Pilone. Wasn't Biscaretti on a tricycle? Edward Stead in a Daimler was the fastest of the cars in 9' 28.0
Coppa della Mengara ( L'Auto Moto Club Perugia) two more events
13/09/25 III Guiseppe Vallemani Bugatti 37 (Sports) 16' 44.0
10/06/26 IV Luigi Fagioli Salmson 1100 .....................14' 50.4
Messina-Colle San Rizzo, Coppa Inverno (AC Messina)
II edition 03/02/29 won by Santi de Pasquale Bugatti (Touring) 11' 34.8, the 1949 climb was the 3rd
There was a 5th Margellina-Posillipo on 07?/06/48 won by Giovanni Rocco Alfa Romeo (Sports) in 4' 47.0
Monte Mario (AC Roma), addition
??/03/27 I Alberto Trivellato Bugatti 35 (Racing)....... 1' 21.6
02/03/47 II Guido Scagliarini Stanguellini-Fiat (Spts) 1' 15.8
II Coppa Pierazzi, (30.0km) Biondetti's time 19' 13.4
More to come.
John
#25
David McKinney
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 18:34
Hans
Was not the 1920s French Amilcar driver Clement-August Martin, not Charles?
Perhaps some of our French experts can help
Was not the 1920s French Amilcar driver Clement-August Martin, not Charles?
Perhaps some of our French experts can help
#26
Magee
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 20:24
Hans,
Great job! I'm trying to find a source of information on hillclimbs in Canada. I know we had lots of them from coast to coast. On the West Coast I competed in several. Whatever I find I'll pass them on to you.
Great job! I'm trying to find a source of information on hillclimbs in Canada. I know we had lots of them from coast to coast. On the West Coast I competed in several. Whatever I find I'll pass them on to you.
#27
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 19 July 2003 - 21:32
David & John – thank you very much for your very important contribution. It will definitely be incorporated into the list but has to wait till early September, when I will be back on the Isles returning from my European expedition.;)
John – I would also appreciate your source information to go with the data. Your name will of course be referred to as a source, but in conjunction with that I also like to record where the data came from originally. This is not just interesting but can become very helpful in future problem solving of contradictions. I don’t mind keeping those references with my list outside the print area and these records already consume over 1 MB of space on my hard drive.
David – Charles Martin who was outright winner of six French hill climbs between 1926 and 1928, did so in a works 6-cyl Amilcar. My sources tell me his first name was Charles. He was often mixed up with the British driver also named Charles Martin, who was seen in MG, Bugatti, ERA and motorboats between 1933 and 1938.
Michael – Thanks a lot. I am aware that the list does not contain a single Canadian hill climb at this time. Please, also quote your sources when you submit your information. I won’t be able to respond till end of August, since I will leave for Europe in a few days where I will not have Internet access.
John – I would also appreciate your source information to go with the data. Your name will of course be referred to as a source, but in conjunction with that I also like to record where the data came from originally. This is not just interesting but can become very helpful in future problem solving of contradictions. I don’t mind keeping those references with my list outside the print area and these records already consume over 1 MB of space on my hard drive.
David – Charles Martin who was outright winner of six French hill climbs between 1926 and 1928, did so in a works 6-cyl Amilcar. My sources tell me his first name was Charles. He was often mixed up with the British driver also named Charles Martin, who was seen in MG, Bugatti, ERA and motorboats between 1933 and 1938.
Michael – Thanks a lot. I am aware that the list does not contain a single Canadian hill climb at this time. Please, also quote your sources when you submit your information. I won’t be able to respond till end of August, since I will leave for Europe in a few days where I will not have Internet access.
#28
humphries
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Posted 20 July 2003 - 00:29
Hans
For Italian events nearly all of it was from "Auto Italiana", and other magazines from the Biscaretti Museum. Some information has come from newspapers or auto club journals. I tend to use only comptemporary sources but two dates did come from the book about Bracco and Maglioli. What precisely from where 20 years on would be too time consuming to match up but everything is pukka, as much as you can rely upon the press!
John
For Italian events nearly all of it was from "Auto Italiana", and other magazines from the Biscaretti Museum. Some information has come from newspapers or auto club journals. I tend to use only comptemporary sources but two dates did come from the book about Bracco and Maglioli. What precisely from where 20 years on would be too time consuming to match up but everything is pukka, as much as you can rely upon the press!
John
#29
David McKinney
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Posted 20 July 2003 - 05:34
I too have seen the French driver referred to as Charles, and know he was not the English one.Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
David – Charles Martin who was outright winner of six French hill climbs between 1926 and 1928, did so in a works 6-cyl Amilcar. My sources tell me his first name was Charles. He was often mixed up with the British driver also named Charles Martin, who was seen in MG, Bugatti, ERA and motorboats between 1933 and 1938.
But there was a Clément-Auguste Martin (1902-1991) associated with Amilcars and I think he is our man. (This spelling corrects my earlier)
#30
Alan Lewis
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Posted 20 July 2003 - 10:38
Hans, you're a genius.
One of the most intriguing sections of Chris Mason's Uphill Racers is where he lists a few early twentieth century events, no winners or details, just the venues. One of them was Gatacre and I've always wondered if it had anything to do with Gatacre Park near Bridgnorth in Shropshire - the motivation being that my Dad was a gardner for Sir Edward Thompson at Gatacre in the fifties (apropos of nothing, it's pronounced "Gatt-Er-Ker" rather than "Gatt-Acre").
Lo and behold, Hans gives us "Gatacre (near Bridgnorth)" results for 1904 and 1905. Where on earth did you get that data from?
Now, also on Mason's list (and not yet on Hans' site) is an "Angel Bank". The main road from Cleobury Mortimer to Ludlow goes down the western side of Titterstone Clee on a bank of that name - there being a pub called "The Angel" on it. I wonder...
APL
One of the most intriguing sections of Chris Mason's Uphill Racers is where he lists a few early twentieth century events, no winners or details, just the venues. One of them was Gatacre and I've always wondered if it had anything to do with Gatacre Park near Bridgnorth in Shropshire - the motivation being that my Dad was a gardner for Sir Edward Thompson at Gatacre in the fifties (apropos of nothing, it's pronounced "Gatt-Er-Ker" rather than "Gatt-Acre").
Lo and behold, Hans gives us "Gatacre (near Bridgnorth)" results for 1904 and 1905. Where on earth did you get that data from?
Now, also on Mason's list (and not yet on Hans' site) is an "Angel Bank". The main road from Cleobury Mortimer to Ludlow goes down the western side of Titterstone Clee on a bank of that name - there being a pub called "The Angel" on it. I wonder...
APL
#31
humphries
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Posted 20 July 2003 - 14:02
David and Hans
The works Amilcar driver was definitely Charles Martin.
There is a bio of him in the Amilcar bible by Gilles Fournier. IBSN 2-84078-008-9
When Gilles wrote his book "Amilcar" he compiled a race by race record of the works participation. Much to his dismay the publishers were not able to include the information on the grounds that the book would be too large. However he made up some booklets and I am lucky enough to have access.
In the book Gilles writes about Charles adding" Ne pas le confondre avec C.A.Martin, agent Amilcar et pilote independant qui engagea a titre prive des Amilcar au Bol d'Or, au Mans et dans diverses courses apres 1930"
John
The works Amilcar driver was definitely Charles Martin.
There is a bio of him in the Amilcar bible by Gilles Fournier. IBSN 2-84078-008-9
When Gilles wrote his book "Amilcar" he compiled a race by race record of the works participation. Much to his dismay the publishers were not able to include the information on the grounds that the book would be too large. However he made up some booklets and I am lucky enough to have access.
In the book Gilles writes about Charles adding" Ne pas le confondre avec C.A.Martin, agent Amilcar et pilote independant qui engagea a titre prive des Amilcar au Bol d'Or, au Mans et dans diverses courses apres 1930"
John
#32
David McKinney
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Posted 20 July 2003 - 14:54
Thankyou John.
I was clearly "confounded"
I was clearly "confounded"
#33
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 08:44
John – thanks for your Italian sources and for disentangling the Charles Martin/Clément-Auguste Martin issue. The C.A. Martin information was new to me.
Alan – my source for Gatacre was Tim Nicholson’s book SPRINT, published 1969 by David & Charles. I know of five Angel Bank events between 1922 and 1924, which I have to add once I find the time. I am well aware of the fact that the list does not yet cover all of the British hill climbs known to me and Angel Bank is just one of them. But I am always open for suggestions. I plan to add several other events over the next year and it’s only a matter of time.
Alan – my source for Gatacre was Tim Nicholson’s book SPRINT, published 1969 by David & Charles. I know of five Angel Bank events between 1922 and 1924, which I have to add once I find the time. I am well aware of the fact that the list does not yet cover all of the British hill climbs known to me and Angel Bank is just one of them. But I am always open for suggestions. I plan to add several other events over the next year and it’s only a matter of time.
#34
humphries
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 09:12
Alan
The first event at Angel Bank was in 1920, I think. What makes me think this is because the following year it was stated that the Worcester & District MCC would hold its "annual" meeting there on 24/9/1921. Sadly neither "The Motor" or "Autocar" reported on what would have been a very minor event with just a handful of competitors. In 1922, however, it was reported that the Worcester club held its third annual meeting on 30th September and the winner was G.S.Boston driving a Vauxhall.
More importantly the Sutton & North Birmingham AC after using a number of different roads in the Midlands opted to organise an event at Angel Bank. This was held on 2/7/1922. Unfortunately the weather was bad and the competitors were restricted to one climb rather than the planned two. Also the event was interrupted by the need to allow the ordinary traffic to use the Ludlow-Bewdley road! H.F.S.Morgan driving one of his own little sports cars won with a time of 50.4"
In 1923 the SUNBAC held a meeting on 21st April and Raymond Mays, later of BRM fame, won with his Bugatti T22, a real racing car. His time was 35.2" The second runs were done to a formula. C (Cubic capacity) times T squared (the time in seconds) divided by the weight (car plus occupants). Mays won that too.
On 14 July another meeting was held and this was again won by Mays in 27.8" The cars now had a flying start; they started 25 yards before crossing the starting line. The course was stated to have been 810 yards with a 1:8 gradient. Competing in this hill-climb was A.E. Moss, father of Stirling. Lord Invernairn had a frustrating day. On his first run he was baulked by a horse and cart. His Lordship then decided to take five passengers with him for his "formula" run, but the cunning plan failed as his Beardmore struggled to do the climb.
On 10 May 1925 the last hill-climb was run at Angel Bank. Heavy rain delayed the start but later, on a slippery surface, Cyril Paul in his 2.0 Beardmore won convincingly ( 29.8") defeating Mays and his Bugatti (31.8"). Paul, driving the same racing car, won the most prestigious British hill-climb of them all at Shelsley Walsh later in the year.
After Kop all racing on public roads was prohibited on mainland Britain until the Superprix races in Birmingham over 60 years later.
John
The first event at Angel Bank was in 1920, I think. What makes me think this is because the following year it was stated that the Worcester & District MCC would hold its "annual" meeting there on 24/9/1921. Sadly neither "The Motor" or "Autocar" reported on what would have been a very minor event with just a handful of competitors. In 1922, however, it was reported that the Worcester club held its third annual meeting on 30th September and the winner was G.S.Boston driving a Vauxhall.
More importantly the Sutton & North Birmingham AC after using a number of different roads in the Midlands opted to organise an event at Angel Bank. This was held on 2/7/1922. Unfortunately the weather was bad and the competitors were restricted to one climb rather than the planned two. Also the event was interrupted by the need to allow the ordinary traffic to use the Ludlow-Bewdley road! H.F.S.Morgan driving one of his own little sports cars won with a time of 50.4"
In 1923 the SUNBAC held a meeting on 21st April and Raymond Mays, later of BRM fame, won with his Bugatti T22, a real racing car. His time was 35.2" The second runs were done to a formula. C (Cubic capacity) times T squared (the time in seconds) divided by the weight (car plus occupants). Mays won that too.
On 14 July another meeting was held and this was again won by Mays in 27.8" The cars now had a flying start; they started 25 yards before crossing the starting line. The course was stated to have been 810 yards with a 1:8 gradient. Competing in this hill-climb was A.E. Moss, father of Stirling. Lord Invernairn had a frustrating day. On his first run he was baulked by a horse and cart. His Lordship then decided to take five passengers with him for his "formula" run, but the cunning plan failed as his Beardmore struggled to do the climb.
On 10 May 1925 the last hill-climb was run at Angel Bank. Heavy rain delayed the start but later, on a slippery surface, Cyril Paul in his 2.0 Beardmore won convincingly ( 29.8") defeating Mays and his Bugatti (31.8"). Paul, driving the same racing car, won the most prestigious British hill-climb of them all at Shelsley Walsh later in the year.
After Kop all racing on public roads was prohibited on mainland Britain until the Superprix races in Birmingham over 60 years later.
John
#35
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 17:23
John – with your explanation, there should have been then a total of eight or nine Angle Bank events. A.B. Demaus in THE AUTOMOBILE, Jan 1990 issue, pg. 55-57 wrote a revealing article about the Angle Bank climb, copies mailed to me by one of my supporters. The story did not refer to the 1920 and 1921 climbs.
Another article in the April 1955 MOTOR SPORT, pg. 171-172 &189-192, does not show any 1920 or 21 events at Angle Bank and contributes only to the confusion of the 1922 events with different dates. Chris Mason in UPHILL RACERS was smart since he did not involve himself in the 1922 controversy.
Another article in the April 1955 MOTOR SPORT, pg. 171-172 &189-192, does not show any 1920 or 21 events at Angle Bank and contributes only to the confusion of the 1922 events with different dates. Chris Mason in UPHILL RACERS was smart since he did not involve himself in the 1922 controversy.
#36
Pete Stowe
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 18:53
Richard,Originally posted by Vitesse2
while we're on the subject of Bristol area hillclimbs, I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that there was a pre-WW1 event at Ston Easton House, which is just down the road from me. Does that ring any bells with you, or am I imagining it?
I’ve not come across anything at Ston Easton, but I’ve not investigated that period thoroughly. Hillclimbs I’m aware of pre-WW1 in roughly that part of the world are Wraxall (Shepton Mallet) and Chew Hill in 1912, & nearer to Bath, Lansdown (1911) and Weston (1912). I’ve also seen a vague reference to the Somerset Automobile Club running a hill-climb circa 1905-6, but with no details of a venue. Somerset AC (founded 1904) seem to have been fairly active then, so I guess it's quite possible something may have happened at Ston Easton.
For Hans -
Backwell Hillclimb (GB) - 550 yards
17 Aug 1935 GR Hartwell (MG Magnette 1071cc s/c) 26.0sec
25 July 1936 John Bolster (Bolster Special 1962cc) 27.2sec
3 July 1937 John Bolster (Bolster Special 1962cc) 23.3 sec
3 Sept 1938 John Bolster (Bolster Special 3924cc) 23.0sec
22 July 1939 Sydney Allard (Allard 3622cc) 26.2 sec
Sources - Light Car, Motor, Autocar
#37
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 19:38
Pete - thanks a lot. I will add those but it has to wait till September.
#38
Vitesse2
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 20:50
Pete: thanks anyway. Might be something there to find then. I might try rummaging through the Somerset Guardian archives sometime ....
#39
Alan Lewis
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 21:09
Thanks guys, so it was the Angel Bank, I biked up and down it a fair few times when I was a boy (and bloody painful it was sometimes). Amazing how this place never fails to put flesh on the thinnest of bones.
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#40
humphries
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Posted 23 July 2003 - 11:17
Hans
Another look at The Angel Bank. Angel, as with fluffy white clouds and harp!
Any confusion appears to surround events in 1922.
"Tomorrow, Saturday, a hill-climb will be held on Angel Bank near Cleobury Mortimer, Salop by the....SUNBAC..."
Autocar 1st July, 1922
But on closer inspection the next issue of Autocar was dated 7th July 1922! So in fact the previous issue of Autocar should have been dated 30th June and so the first SUNBAC event was on 1st July. The overall winner was Arthur Waite in his Austin 20 in 47.8", not Morgan, a class winner. My mistake. Nicholson in his book "Sprint" may be wrong to refer to Angel Bank as a new course. He obviously did not know about the Worcester clubs previous use of Angel Bank if indeed those clubs used Angel Bank. I suppose it is possible that different locatons were used for their annual hill-climbs.
" The third annual hill-climb of the Worcester & District MCC and the Worcestershire MC, which was originally fixed for September 16th, has been postponed until Saturday, September 30th".
Autocar 8th Sept, 1922
" The 500 mile motocycle race at Brooklands having been abandoned...SUNBAC...have decided to hold a hill-climb at Angel Bank on Sept 30th"
The Motor 19th September, 1922.
This was the totally incorrect piece of information which seems to have caused much confusion!!
In Autocar 29th September there was a very brief mention that N.Norris ( Morgan) won the SUNBAC Angel Bank hill-climb held on the 23rd Sept, 1922. Below this report it stated that the Worcester clubs would be holding their meeting on the 30th Sept. I, owing to the misinformation in The Motor had jumped to investigate the double booked 30th date and therefore missed the 23rd date!!
In Autocar of 13th October, 1922 there was a brief report on the Worcester Clubs' event and G.S.Boston in a Vauxhall won the over 1500cc class and Cyril Williams in a GN the under 1500cc class.
Bill Boddy in his list of 1922 hill-climb winners, Motor Sport April, 1955 leaves blank the date of the Worcester event, suggesting it was the 13th October and only mentions C.Williams (GN) class win.
Bill doesn't list the the 23 October SUNBAC event having fallen into the same trap as me and was perplexed about the 30th date. Nicholson got 1922 dates right.
If Chris Mason had tried sorting out this and other anomalies his book would not have yet been published!
So, unless any one knows differently ( A.B.Demaus, article in The Automobile?), it would seem there were 3 ( or maybe only 1 ) Worcester events and 5 SUNBAC races on The Angel Bank.
If somebody in Worcester has not got anything better to do, they could pop in the local library and consult the local rags for the September (?) 1920 and 24/9/1921 Worcester events or read about the clubs annual dinner and prize-giving held in December at the Pack Horse Hotel, Worcester. Confirmation of the hill-climb venue would be nice along with any results.
John
PS Does anybody know all about the mountain-climbs held in Poland pre-war!?
Another look at The Angel Bank. Angel, as with fluffy white clouds and harp!
Any confusion appears to surround events in 1922.
"Tomorrow, Saturday, a hill-climb will be held on Angel Bank near Cleobury Mortimer, Salop by the....SUNBAC..."
Autocar 1st July, 1922
But on closer inspection the next issue of Autocar was dated 7th July 1922! So in fact the previous issue of Autocar should have been dated 30th June and so the first SUNBAC event was on 1st July. The overall winner was Arthur Waite in his Austin 20 in 47.8", not Morgan, a class winner. My mistake. Nicholson in his book "Sprint" may be wrong to refer to Angel Bank as a new course. He obviously did not know about the Worcester clubs previous use of Angel Bank if indeed those clubs used Angel Bank. I suppose it is possible that different locatons were used for their annual hill-climbs.
" The third annual hill-climb of the Worcester & District MCC and the Worcestershire MC, which was originally fixed for September 16th, has been postponed until Saturday, September 30th".
Autocar 8th Sept, 1922
" The 500 mile motocycle race at Brooklands having been abandoned...SUNBAC...have decided to hold a hill-climb at Angel Bank on Sept 30th"
The Motor 19th September, 1922.
This was the totally incorrect piece of information which seems to have caused much confusion!!
In Autocar 29th September there was a very brief mention that N.Norris ( Morgan) won the SUNBAC Angel Bank hill-climb held on the 23rd Sept, 1922. Below this report it stated that the Worcester clubs would be holding their meeting on the 30th Sept. I, owing to the misinformation in The Motor had jumped to investigate the double booked 30th date and therefore missed the 23rd date!!
In Autocar of 13th October, 1922 there was a brief report on the Worcester Clubs' event and G.S.Boston in a Vauxhall won the over 1500cc class and Cyril Williams in a GN the under 1500cc class.
Bill Boddy in his list of 1922 hill-climb winners, Motor Sport April, 1955 leaves blank the date of the Worcester event, suggesting it was the 13th October and only mentions C.Williams (GN) class win.
Bill doesn't list the the 23 October SUNBAC event having fallen into the same trap as me and was perplexed about the 30th date. Nicholson got 1922 dates right.
If Chris Mason had tried sorting out this and other anomalies his book would not have yet been published!
So, unless any one knows differently ( A.B.Demaus, article in The Automobile?), it would seem there were 3 ( or maybe only 1 ) Worcester events and 5 SUNBAC races on The Angel Bank.
If somebody in Worcester has not got anything better to do, they could pop in the local library and consult the local rags for the September (?) 1920 and 24/9/1921 Worcester events or read about the clubs annual dinner and prize-giving held in December at the Pack Horse Hotel, Worcester. Confirmation of the hill-climb venue would be nice along with any results.
John
PS Does anybody know all about the mountain-climbs held in Poland pre-war!?
#41
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 23 July 2003 - 16:34
Originally posted by humphries
...If Chris Mason had tried sorting out this and other anomalies his book would not have yet been published!
Very funny!John, thanks for sorting out the 1922 Angel Bank events. I shall add all this to the hill climb list later in August or September.
1928, Jun 3 – Kocierz Climb (Kraków), 1st (4.900 km)Originally posted by humphries
...Does anybody know all about the mountain-climbs held in Poland pre-war!?
1928, Jul 1 – Krzyzowa Climb, 1st (2.000 km)
1929, Jun 6 – Krzyzowa Climb, 2nd (3.000 km)
1930, Jun 8 – Ojców Climb (Kraków), 1st (3.500 km)
1937, Jun 20 – Ojców Climb (Kraków), 2nd (3.500 km)
1938, Jun 12 – Ojców Climb (Kraków), 3rd (3.500 km)
1939, Jun ? – Ojców Climb (Kraków), 4th (3.500 km)
1927-1931 the 5 Tatra (Kraców) events were held, refer to the list under “Tatra”.
Source information below is all from Andrzej Jakubaszek 10:48 AM 1/3/2003: All mountain climbs are in detail described (rules,run of events, final official results) in Polish magazine Auto. I must verify numbers and pages.
1 – Wyscigi na Kocierz (Kocierz race) Organised by Krakowski Klub Automobilowy - KKA (Cracow Automobile Club) and Slaski Klub Automobilowy - SKA (Silesian Automobile Club). Course: road from Zywiec to Andrychów (start at km 15,6, finish at km 10,7) 4,900 km. Near Kraków (pass Kocierz is about 60 km from Kraków).
2 – Wyscig na Krzyzowej (Krzyzowa race) Organised by Krakowski Klub Automobilowy - KKA (Cracow Automobile Club). Course: road from Grybów to Krynica 2,000km, flying start (1928); 3,000 km (1929) Near Nowy Sacz (pass Krzyzowa is about 30 km from Nowy Sacz).
3 – Wyscig pod Ojcowem (Ojców race) Organised by Krakowski Klub Automobilowy - KKA (Cracow Automobile Club). Course: road from Ojców to Kraków (start at km 16,200, finish at km 12,700) 3,500 km, average inclination 3,3%, max. inclination 6%. Near Kraków (Ojców is about 20 km from Kraków).
4 –Wyscig Tatrzanski (Tatra Race) Organised by Krakowski Klub Automobilowy - KKA (Cracow Automobile Club). Course: road from Zakopane to lake Morskie Oko (in fact from Lysa Polana to Wlosienica) 7,500 km, level differences 368 metres, average inclination 4,2%, max. inclination 6,2%. Near Kraków (Zakopane is about 100 km from Kraków); for 1927 date = August 14; for 1928 date = August 19; for 1929 date = August 11; for 1930 date = August 24; for 1931 date = August 16;
[For the Tatra events I have additional sources, which I can make available if requested.]
#42
anjakub
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- 612 posts
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Posted 23 July 2003 - 17:27
Hans,
Brilliant work. Thank you very much.
In the Tatra Race write Kraków not Kraców.
If it is my error, sorry.
The Tatra Race was nearer by Zakopane (winter sports station in other words "Polands winter capital").
Brilliant work. Thank you very much.
In the Tatra Race write Kraków not Kraców.
If it is my error, sorry.
The Tatra Race was nearer by Zakopane (winter sports station in other words "Polands winter capital").
#44
humphries
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- 931 posts
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Posted 24 July 2003 - 18:09
Hans
Some more Italian "salita" observations.
A Coppa della Collina Pistoiese (AC Pisa) was held on ??/8/1948 over a shortened course and was won by Biagiola with a Fiat 1100 in 7" 05.4"
26/10/1930 Pola-Dignano (Coppa 28 Octobre) 7km Luigi Cataloni Alfa Romeo 1750 Sports 3' 21.4" The same three driver/ car combinations took the first 3 places as in the previous year. Different drivers for 4th position etc.
29/05/49 The winner of the Porto Empedocle-Argrigento 11km was Nicola Musmeci Maserati A6G 6' 39.0"
20/06/48 Sagra di Montevecchia (AC Milano) Giampiero Bianchetti... Alfa Romeo.......1' 07.0"
Colle San Eusebio (AC Brescia)
I ??/10/26 Antonio Masperi....O.M.............8' 18.0"
II 20/11/27 Aymo Maggi .....Maserati 26B..7' 43.2"
19/06/38 I San Remo-Poggio dei Fiori.... Franco Spotorno... Fiat 3' 17.2"
03/11/46 I Coppa Felice Scandone, Coroglia (AC Napoli) Giuseppe Ruggiero Alfa Romeo 8C 3' 17.2"
02/09/1906 Criterium Colle del Sestriere....Ugo Sivocci....Otav 4.5 HP
Stelvio
I ??/08/25 Leonino de Zara ....Alfa Romeo.......23' 08.6"
II 28/08/26 was a handicap but Supremo Montanari ..Bugatti T22 ...best time 31' 40.0"
In 1932 Hans Stuck in a sports Mercedes-Benz SSKL was BTD with 15' 23.0"
Likewise in 1933 Mario Tadini in a sports Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 was the quickest in 15' 00.3, again beating all the racing cars.
18/07/26 I Stresa-Alpino 8.5km won by Abele Clerici in a Salmson 1100 in 9' 43.2". The event was for 1100 Racing cars.
04/07/1948...Susa-Moncenisio..."Chirus" Lancia Aprilia.....12' 47.6.... Sports..shortened course
The Coppa Taras was over a 11.0km long course.
Terni-Passo Della Somma (AC&MC Terni) 13.8km
I ....??/06/1924 ....Alfredo Borghi ............Alfa Romeo RL........12' 15.0" Sports
II ..14/06/1925 ...Renato Balestrero.......O.M.........................12' 00.2" Sports
III..13/06/1926 ...Diego de Sterlich.........Diatto 3.0...............10' 01.4" Racing Cars
IV ..10/07/1927 .."Baconin" Borzacchini..Maserati 26.............10' 14.6 Racing Cars
23/10/1949 I Cava dei Tirreni-Badia (AC Salerno) Mario Bilotti Lancia Spl 2.0 ...3' 44.2
Tolentino- Colle di Paterno
II ??/10/1924..... Egisto Soprani ...Ansaldo...4' 43.0...Sports as was 1923.
16/06/ 1927 Trento-Bondone 18.0km Prosperi Gianferrari...Alfa Romeo...25' 58.0...Sports, one of two in 1927?
Treponti-Castelnuovo
1929? I think there was a race also I have 12/10/1930 not 07/12/1930. 04/10/1931, 1932, 1933 and 1948 all in October, 16/10/1949.
Tresenda-Aprica (AC Sondrio) 13.4km
I ....22/09/1946... Alfredo de Dosso......Lancia Aprilia.............12' 16.6"....Touring
II ...???07/1947....Alfredo de Dosso..... Fiat 1100...................11'44.6" ....Sports
III..08/08/1948 ...Piero Carini...............Volpini-Fiat 1100........10' 56.5"....Sports
IV..21/08/1949 ...Emilio Carnevali.........Carnevali-Fiat 1100...11' 31.9" ...Sports
22/05/49...Brinzio (8.5km) the winner was Dante Spreafico Volpini-Fiat 1100 ...5' 57.6"
Targa del Vesuvio 7.0km
III 1948 Was one but no information
IV. 1949 Antonio de Filippis, brother of Maria-Teresa, in a Ferrari 166 in 7' 15.0
1933 Vittorio Veneto-Cansiglio, Comirato's time was 13' 54.8"
Clocchiatti's first name was Aldo.
John
Some more Italian "salita" observations.
A Coppa della Collina Pistoiese (AC Pisa) was held on ??/8/1948 over a shortened course and was won by Biagiola with a Fiat 1100 in 7" 05.4"
26/10/1930 Pola-Dignano (Coppa 28 Octobre) 7km Luigi Cataloni Alfa Romeo 1750 Sports 3' 21.4" The same three driver/ car combinations took the first 3 places as in the previous year. Different drivers for 4th position etc.
29/05/49 The winner of the Porto Empedocle-Argrigento 11km was Nicola Musmeci Maserati A6G 6' 39.0"
20/06/48 Sagra di Montevecchia (AC Milano) Giampiero Bianchetti... Alfa Romeo.......1' 07.0"
Colle San Eusebio (AC Brescia)
I ??/10/26 Antonio Masperi....O.M.............8' 18.0"
II 20/11/27 Aymo Maggi .....Maserati 26B..7' 43.2"
19/06/38 I San Remo-Poggio dei Fiori.... Franco Spotorno... Fiat 3' 17.2"
03/11/46 I Coppa Felice Scandone, Coroglia (AC Napoli) Giuseppe Ruggiero Alfa Romeo 8C 3' 17.2"
02/09/1906 Criterium Colle del Sestriere....Ugo Sivocci....Otav 4.5 HP
Stelvio
I ??/08/25 Leonino de Zara ....Alfa Romeo.......23' 08.6"
II 28/08/26 was a handicap but Supremo Montanari ..Bugatti T22 ...best time 31' 40.0"
In 1932 Hans Stuck in a sports Mercedes-Benz SSKL was BTD with 15' 23.0"
Likewise in 1933 Mario Tadini in a sports Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 was the quickest in 15' 00.3, again beating all the racing cars.
18/07/26 I Stresa-Alpino 8.5km won by Abele Clerici in a Salmson 1100 in 9' 43.2". The event was for 1100 Racing cars.
04/07/1948...Susa-Moncenisio..."Chirus" Lancia Aprilia.....12' 47.6.... Sports..shortened course
The Coppa Taras was over a 11.0km long course.
Terni-Passo Della Somma (AC&MC Terni) 13.8km
I ....??/06/1924 ....Alfredo Borghi ............Alfa Romeo RL........12' 15.0" Sports
II ..14/06/1925 ...Renato Balestrero.......O.M.........................12' 00.2" Sports
III..13/06/1926 ...Diego de Sterlich.........Diatto 3.0...............10' 01.4" Racing Cars
IV ..10/07/1927 .."Baconin" Borzacchini..Maserati 26.............10' 14.6 Racing Cars
23/10/1949 I Cava dei Tirreni-Badia (AC Salerno) Mario Bilotti Lancia Spl 2.0 ...3' 44.2
Tolentino- Colle di Paterno
II ??/10/1924..... Egisto Soprani ...Ansaldo...4' 43.0...Sports as was 1923.
16/06/ 1927 Trento-Bondone 18.0km Prosperi Gianferrari...Alfa Romeo...25' 58.0...Sports, one of two in 1927?
Treponti-Castelnuovo
1929? I think there was a race also I have 12/10/1930 not 07/12/1930. 04/10/1931, 1932, 1933 and 1948 all in October, 16/10/1949.
Tresenda-Aprica (AC Sondrio) 13.4km
I ....22/09/1946... Alfredo de Dosso......Lancia Aprilia.............12' 16.6"....Touring
II ...???07/1947....Alfredo de Dosso..... Fiat 1100...................11'44.6" ....Sports
III..08/08/1948 ...Piero Carini...............Volpini-Fiat 1100........10' 56.5"....Sports
IV..21/08/1949 ...Emilio Carnevali.........Carnevali-Fiat 1100...11' 31.9" ...Sports
22/05/49...Brinzio (8.5km) the winner was Dante Spreafico Volpini-Fiat 1100 ...5' 57.6"
Targa del Vesuvio 7.0km
III 1948 Was one but no information
IV. 1949 Antonio de Filippis, brother of Maria-Teresa, in a Ferrari 166 in 7' 15.0
1933 Vittorio Veneto-Cansiglio, Comirato's time was 13' 54.8"
Clocchiatti's first name was Aldo.
John
#45
Alan Lewis
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- 1,136 posts
- Joined: December 02
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Posted 24 July 2003 - 20:45
Originally posted by humphries
"Tomorrow, Saturday, a hill-climb will be held on Angel Bank near Cleobury Mortimer, Salop by the....SUNBAC..."
The overall winner was Arthur Waite in his Austin 20 in 47.8"...
So the country road I've been up and down so many times was also the scene of a victory for the future first Australian Grand Prix winner.
Yes, I know...but it still sounds good.
Originally posted by humphries
If Chris Mason had tried sorting out this and other anomalies his book would not have yet been published!
A good point well made!
APL
#46
Ray Bell
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- 82,318 posts
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Posted 24 July 2003 - 22:48
Originally posted by Alan Lewis
So the country road I've been up and down so many times was also the scene of a victory for the future first Australian Grand Prix winner.
Well... perhaps...
The events of the past couple of years lead me to strongly favour official recognition of the event at Goulburn on January 15, 1927 as being the first Australian Grand Prix.
It was titled such, in the first instance. Everyone you talk to who was there in 1928 (at Phillip Island) even today, refers to the event as the 100 Miles Road Race... which was it's title at the time. Go back through the contemporary press and you find this, probably right into the thirties.
I don't know when the title, which had first been applied at Goulburn before that event was run it must be emphasised, was accorded to the 1928 race in question at Phillip Island. I suspect about 1937 or 1938, though there would undoubtedly have been loose discussion applying it prior to that.
The point is that it is very much a moot point whether or not it should have that distinction. When we had that wonderful 75th anniversary of the Goulburn event last year, coincidentally there was a Toyota Corolla parked outside the showground, undoubtedly the owner was tending to some business in the breaker's yard opposite...
Now that might be entirely a coincidence, but the question must be asked: "Why is the 1928 Phillip Island event officially recognised as the first Australian Grand Prix?"
It was not deemed to be so or named as such at the time. The application of the name later could be said to have been done without consideration to any claim for the Goulburn race, and the Goulburn race has been swept under the carpet, deliberately hidden from the records, by interests in Victoria.
There is plenty of evidence that they knew it took place. There is good reason to believe that it has been deliberately ignored by the 'historians'... undoubtedly a part of the interstate rivalry that has always existed to some degree or another.
While this is all true, it's also true that Arthur Waite won the first road race ever officially held in Australia. It was an event over 100 miles or thereabouts, he won it by beating some worthy opposition and in conditions that would defy belief by many today. He certainly recognised the worth of this win, apparently, bragging about it to some degree or another until his death... and so he was pleased to have this photo taken...
This is Arthur Waite in the latter months of 1987, just a year after the AGP book was released. One day somebody might buy this autographed copy from my Estate. Apart from Waite, it has been signed by AGP winners Crouch, Pratley, Moss, Mildren, Matich and Brabham; significant competitors Muir, Phil Hill and several others. There are, by coincidence again, photographs of each of the deceased signatory winners holding the book that might well go with it...
#48
Dennis Hockenbury
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Posted 28 July 2003 - 16:15
In researching a response to a PM query by cabianca, the 1941 Pikes Peak winner should be ascribed as the 'Burd Piston Ring Special' rather than the listed 'Bowes Seal Fast Special'.
#49
Vitesse2
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Posted 02 August 2003 - 11:48
A small query Hans: in another thread we were discussing the Apollo marque. According to Georgano, page 351, Karl Slevogt used one to take the overall win at Gabelbach in 1924: you have it as Huldreich Heusser in a Steyr.
#50
Holger Merten
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Posted 02 August 2003 - 15:46
Richard,
Hans makes his european holiday trips, which means, he travells through Europe, looking for newspapers in some archivs. He will arrive in Basel next monday and will stay until saturday. So I will enjoy some nice moments with him - discussing Nostalgia.
Hans makes his european holiday trips, which means, he travells through Europe, looking for newspapers in some archivs. He will arrive in Basel next monday and will stay until saturday. So I will enjoy some nice moments with him - discussing Nostalgia.
