68 replies to this topic

[Group B]

There's been a lot of talk recently about how KR is miraculously keeping the dog-slow, awful, out of date MP4/17D in the game by using his brilliant unique talent and speed to drive it beyond it's limits. A glance at the fastest laps of the top 3 teams from the last 2 races seems to put this theory somewhat into question however; just look at the times slow old cubey managed in the slow old Mac:

GB
RB 1:22.236
DC 1:22.692
KR 1:22.911
JPM 1:22.938
RS 1:22.943
MS 1:23.024

FRA
JPM 1:15.512
RS 1:15.698
DC 1:15.981
MS 1:16.303
KR 1:16.609
RB 1:17.104

[Fortymark]

It was the 3:rd best car last year, and it´s still the 2002 car but it´s developed from that.
Ferrari, Williams and Renault have all made new cars, better cars.
I have no doubt that Ferrari, Williams and Renault have all improved more on their -03 cars compaired to what Mclaren could have done to the MP4/17D.

I mean where was Renault last year? Williams, was the second best car in -02 but they have improved much with the FW25, not much in the beginning of the season but lately.
The MP4-17D is not so bad but it have been the 2:nd, 3:rd and 4:th best car.

[maclaren]

True, DC was faster than Kimi in France. And often equally fast. So what? Does this make Mac better than 2nd/3rd best car? Propably not. But qualifying and taking opportunities in races is important and there Kimi has done the difference.

[Janzen]

Fastest lap comparison is good but one lap can always be a little faster, one should take about 10 fastest lap from the race and compare them to get something of a indication where the teams are in relation to each other.

Is there a place on the net that have all the lap times of a driver in the race?

[Fortymark]

Originally posted by Janzen
Fastest lap comparison is good but one lap can always be a little faster, one should take about 10 fastest lap from the race and compare them to get something of a indication where the teams are in relation to each other.

Is there a place on the net that have all the lap times of a driver in the race?

Tag heuer have it, but they have been slow to update it. They have an complete list from all drivers and lap times..

[Claudius]

According to Kimi fanboys and MS bashers the MP4/17D is extremly bad and an inferior old car.

Here's wRongs view:

http://www.itv-f1.co...ews_story/16725

"He said: "Looking back, one of the mistakes we made was not to call the MP4-17-D the MP4-18.

"People talk about it being an 'old car' but the fact is that it has different wings, bodywork, gearbox, front suspension, rear suspension, and revisions to its weight distribution compared with last year's car. "


That coupled with Michelins strong performance on many tracks should explain the performance of the MP4/17D...

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Claudius
According to Kimi fanboys and MS bashers the MP4/17D is extremly bad and an inferior old car.

Here's wRongs view:

http://www.itv-f1.co...ews_story/16725

"He said: "Looking back, one of the mistakes we made was not to call the MP4-17-D the MP4-18.

"People talk about it being an 'old car' but the fact is that it has different wings, bodywork, gearbox, front suspension, rear suspension, and revisions to its weight distribution compared with last year's car. "


That coupled with Michelins strong performance on many tracks should explain the performance of the MP4/17D...

It also has a much improved engine.

No team this year has gained the HP that McLaren have in their engine, over last year's model.

[B. Dover]

But last year's engine was so bad that they are still behind Ferrari and BMW.

Every car will get new parts during the season, 2003GA and FW25 are no exceptions. Teams get the maximum out of the car by finetuning it during the season. MP4/17 has much less room to improve than the cars introduced by Ferrari and Williams this year, the basic chassis & monoque is still the same as the one used by Mac last year. Mac & Kimi have done incredible job this year with the car, team has gotten the last bits of extra speed out of it and Kimi has used that speed to the fullest.

One has to remember that the basic chassis of MP4/17 wasn't even designed for Michelin tires in the first place. Sure, it has been modified extensively since but it doesn't change the fact that it's not optimised for the tires.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Claudius
According to Kimi fanboys and MS bashers the MP4/17D is extremly bad and an inferior old car.

"People talk about it being an 'old car' but the fact is that it has different wings, bodywork, gearbox, front suspension, rear suspension, and revisions to its weight distribution compared with last year's car. "

Yeah but the torque setting on one of the bolts from the rear suspension wishbone has not been changed yet, so therefore it is still an MP4/17.


That car probably is newer than the F2003GA and FW25 put together.

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by Claudius
According to Kimi fanboys and MS bashers the MP4/17D is extremly bad and an inferior old car.

Here's wRongs view:

http://www.itv-f1.co...ews_story/16725

"He said: "Looking back, one of the mistakes we made was not to call the MP4-17-D the MP4-18.

"People talk about it being an 'old car' but the fact is that it has different wings, bodywork, gearbox, front suspension, rear suspension, and revisions to its weight distribution compared with last year's car. "


That coupled with Michelins strong performance on many tracks should explain the performance of the MP4/17D...

And of course they have an updated engine ( they have had good top speed in most races) and michelin tyres. But nomather how much Mclaren personal and drivers keep telling us that this car only looks the same as last years car on the surface, there will always be people on this board putting their own spin on things. wRONgs comments totally contradicts those of HSJ and other " Kimi spin doctors" on this board. People are running an agenda, whereby if Kimi loses the championship they will have their excuses all ready and if he wins it will become a "David V Goliat" fairytale story. Ridiculous

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Amir_S
they have had good top speed in most races

So what? It's in the cost of cornering grip

[kismet]

Originally posted by Amir_S
People are running an agenda, whereby if Kimi loses the championship they will have their excuses all ready and if he wins it will become a "David V Goliat" fairytale story. Ridiculous

Maybe it's ridiculous, but the exact same thing will happen with MS. If he wins, it'll become a "Michael vs superior Michelin" story of mythical proportions and if he loses, it'll only be because everyone else had cars that were 1 sec per lap faster than that POS F2003 (with "quality" Bridgestones). Kimi fans don't by any means have the monopoly of lame excuses and ridiculousness on this board (or any board that I've ever come across).

As for the MP4-17D, clearly it's not a bad car, but neither is it a car that I'd like to be driving for the rest of the season if I were a championship contender and a F2003 or a FW25 was available. Unless I desperately wanted to lose the championship, that is.

[baddog]

no. If michael loses this championship (barring massive change from here on) it will be the first championship he lost when he should have won it

Shaun

[baddog]

as for the 17...

"People talk about it being an 'old car' but the fact is that it has different wings, bodywork, gearbox, front suspension, rear suspension, and revisions to its weight distribution compared with last year's car. "

Shaun

[SupraDupra]

Howcome HSJ hasn't yet replied to this thread.. I think it would be unfair of any of us to judge the performance of the MP4/17D before we hear the true story and analysis of it from HSJ.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by B. Dover
But last year's engine was so bad that they are still behind Ferrari and BMW.

Every car will get new parts during the season, 2003GA and FW25 are no exceptions. Teams get the maximum out of the car by finetuning it during the season. MP4/17 has much less room to improve than the cars introduced by Ferrari and Williams this year, the basic chassis & monoque is still the same as the one used by Mac last year. Mac & Kimi have done incredible job this year with the car, team has gotten the last bits of extra speed out of it and Kimi has used that speed to the fullest.

One has to remember that the basic chassis of MP4/17 wasn't even designed for Michelin tires in the first place. Sure, it has been modified extensively since but it doesn't change the fact that it's not optimised for the tires.

Tyre optimisation means in fact the design of the suspension. As this year's car has new suspension, it's fully optimized for Michelins.
I was thinking for a long time that Formula 1 teams, given the hectic schedule, never in fact develop their cars to the full. There's simply no time to realize a car'a potential to the full, especially if the car has plenty of teething troubles. Of course, it's not the general rule but I think it could be applied to majority of cases. Therefore, I don't think McLaren is handicapped much this year. They simply developed their car to its full potential. After all, what could they think up this year that they couldn't a year ago? Not much....
Similarly, MP4-18 would be a wonderful 2004 and maybe even 2005 car if its concept proves right. John Barnard once said that he was absolutely positive about the fact that a good Formula 1 car, the one that has been conceived and designed well, is a design that should last for years. 2003 McLaren is as strong relatively to the opposition as the 2001 one (and much stronger then 2002 one) and benefits from somewhat better reliability and the new points system. As Ron Dennis said, this is in fact the MP4-18. So, no miraculous Kimi!!

Hrvoje

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by SupraDupra
Howcome HSJ hasn't yet replied to this thread.. I think it would be unfair of any of us to judge the performance of the MP4/17D before we hear the true story and analysis of it from HSJ.

Exactly. We need to hear the real inside scoop on this matter. But I suspect that HSJ is already on the phone with his "Inside Woking Mole" and he'll soon be ready to deliever his spin on wRONgs comments.

[zfh10]

Originally posted by Amir_S
And of course they have an updated engine ( they have had good top speed in most races) and michelin tyres. But nomather how much Mclaren personal and drivers keep telling us that this car only looks the same as last years car on the surface, there will always be people on this board putting their own spin on things. wRONgs comments totally contradicts those of HSJ and other " Kimi spin doctors" on this board. People are running an agenda, whereby if Kimi loses the championship they will have their excuses all ready and if he wins it will become a "David V Goliat" fairytale story. Ridiculous

Yep. Ridiculous being the operative word here.

[JustVisitingthePit]

Originally posted by Claudius
According to Kimi fanboys and MS bashers the MP4/17D is extremly bad and an inferior old car.

Here's wRongs view:

http://www.itv-f1.co...ews_story/16725

"He said: "Looking back, one of the mistakes we made was not to call the MP4-17-D the MP4-18.

"People talk about it being an 'old car' but the fact is that it has different wings, bodywork, gearbox, front suspension, rear suspension, and revisions to its weight distribution compared with last year's car. "


That coupled with Michelins strong performance on many tracks should explain the performance of the MP4/17D...

Not only should it, it does. Yes the 17-D is THAT bad it's only taken wRongs how long to admit it ? If the team cannot keep up with other top teams, and say things like we're just looking to finish races - in the link above - then that's admitting it is THAT bad. Todt stated it they aren't a threat, saying that ,I would have liked Mac to have bought out the MP4-18 and shown something for all their talk ,money and work before the end of the season.

[Amir_S]

From f1 racing.net:

McLaren will unveil significant revisions to the 'old' MP4-17D contender at the upcoming German and Hungarian grands prix.

But managing director Martin Whitmarsh adds that Woking is 'no closer' to a decision on whether to let the all-new MP4-18 loose some time this season.

'We're reasonably competitive at the moment, but it's very close,' said Whitmarsh, refusing to admit details of the 17's revisions.

He denies the interpretation that Sir Frank Williams' BMW-powered team has moved a clear step ahead of McLaren in 2003.

'I don't think so,' Martin said, daring the 'trained eye' to spot the McLaren's Hockenheim improvements.

'I think in some races we'll do a better job and vice versa.'

Whitmarsh insists that race victory at Silverstone 'should have been ours' because team ace Kimi Raikkonen emerged after the last pitstop in the lead. 'You can always say how you should have won,' he said, noting that podium-getters Rubens Barrichello and Juan Pablo Montoya had to pass the Finn.

'We were leading, winning, so you could say we should have won there.'

So much for the "There is no development anymore on the 17D". I just love it when Mclaren insiders keep blowing certain forumers agendas to smitherins. Funny also that Martin doesn't think that they are falling behind Williams at all.

Mclaren really need to stop telling it like it is. This kind of behaviour is causing great embarrassment to certain forumers in here

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Amir_S
So much for the "There is no development anymore on the 17D". I just love it when Mclaren insiders keep blowing certain forumers agendas to smitherins. Funny also that Martin doesn't think that they are falling behind Williams at all.

Well are they? The only circuit where Williams was clearly better was Magny-Cours. It's the charasteristic of the circuit which tend to produce some surprising performances every now and then

[kenjafield]

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/3103793.stm

"McLaren are to introduce an updated version of their Formula One car over the next two Grands Prix in an attempt to keep driver Kimi Raikkonen's title challenge alive.

McLaren have been outpaced by rivals Williams in the last two races and are aiming to boost their speed with the improvements to the MP4-17D car and its Mercedes engine.

Some parts will be ready for this weekend's German Grand Prix, with others waiting until the Hungarian event on 24 August.

McLaren managing director Martin Whitmarsh said: "We're reasonably competitive at the moment, but it's very close [between us and Williams].

"There is no doubt Williams are making good progress and I'm sure we'd rather have a larger [performance] margin."

Whitmarsh would not specify what the improvements were, but said they would only be obvious to a trained eye.

He added that McLaren were no closer to deciding when their long-delayed all-new car, the MP4-18, would make its race debut.

It has appeared in the last two races that Williams had leapfrogged McLaren to become definitively the quickest team on Michelin tyres. Ferrari use the rival Bridgestones.

But Whitmarsh said: "I don't think Williams have made a step ahead [of McLaren]. It's sufficiently close that in some races we will do a better job than them and in others it will be other way around."

And he pointed out that Raikkonen was in the lead ahead of race-winner Rubens Barrichello and runner-up Juan Pablo Montoya of Williams at the British Grand Prix only to be passed by both men.

"You can always say how you should have won. We came out in front after the last stop, so you can say we should have won the last one."

Raikkonen is in second place in the championship, seven points behind leader Michael Schumacher and seven ahead of Montoya.

The Finn has not won a race since the Malaysian GP in March, although he was leading the European GP in June when his engine failed. "

[Menace]

Originally posted by Amir_S
From f1 racing.net:

McLaren will unveil significant revisions to the 'old' MP4-17D contender at the upcoming German and Hungarian grands prix.

But managing director Martin Whitmarsh adds that Woking is 'no closer' to a decision on whether to let the all-new MP4-18 loose some time this season.

'We're reasonably competitive at the moment, but it's very close,' said Whitmarsh, refusing to admit details of the 17's revisions.

He denies the interpretation that Sir Frank Williams' BMW-powered team has moved a clear step ahead of McLaren in 2003.

'I don't think so,' Martin said, daring the 'trained eye' to spot the McLaren's Hockenheim improvements.

'I think in some races we'll do a better job and vice versa.'

Whitmarsh insists that race victory at Silverstone 'should have been ours' because team ace Kimi Raikkonen emerged after the last pitstop in the lead. 'You can always say how you should have won,' he said, noting that podium-getters Rubens Barrichello and Juan Pablo Montoya had to pass the Finn.

'We were leading, winning, so you could say we should have won there.'

So much for the "There is no development anymore on the 17D". I just love it when Mclaren insiders keep blowing certain forumers agendas to smitherins. Funny also that Martin doesn't think that they are falling behind Williams at all.
Mclaren really need to stop telling it like it is. This kind of behaviour is causing great embarressment to certain forumers in here

1) Do you think it is in the self-intrest of Mclaren to admit that they are behind their closest compatriots?

2) No forumer has been claiming MP4/17D will NOT BE DEVELOPED, especially SINCE THE MP4/18 was basically SCRATCHED FOR THE YEAR!? All we have been saying, which is/was true , is that Mclaren hasn't had significant developments since the first 4 races of the year, UNTIL NOW that is.

3) No embarassment caused, but your enthusiasm is appreciated.

[sensible]

Originally posted by baddog
no. If michael loses this championship (barring massive change from here on) it will be the first championship he lost when he should have won it

Shaun

Dont know I agree with this entirely. Car wise I think the top threee are about equal. On individual races one or two have often dominated the other(s) and there always seems to be one with problems, but overall I think it has evened out. Michael probably has a slight advantage in that when its Bridgestone country, he should win, but I think the fact that micelins are normally better equalises even that. I think its probably the most open championship in terms of equality of machinery (actually delivered to the races rather than inthe minds of forummers) for years.

[WACKO]

Quote originally posted by Amir S:
So much for the "There is no development anymore on the 17D". I just love it when Mclaren insiders keep blowing certain forumers agendas to smitherins. Funny also that Martin doesn't think that they are falling behind Williams at all.
Mclaren really need to stop telling it like it is. This kind of behaviour is causing great embarressment to certain forumers in here

I think it is indeed what is the reason for McLaren's drop in performance lately. No matter: DC has had race speed but flunked badly in qualifying. But they never imagined the 18 being that late so they haven't overthought possible next steps of development on the 17D. So basically, they are now finding themselves having a serious problem for the coming races and despite his glittering racing, I don't see Raikkonen be a serious threat to the title as I expect Williams to outshine the Silver bullets in the coming races. And only one will be really relieved about that; he drives a red Ferrari.

[WACKO]

Pierre Dupasquier: "Technically speaking the differences are really small now in F1. It is not only the tyres being competitive. You can not see the tyres apart from the car. Williams did well on Magny Cours, but so did McLaren in Nurburgring and still they did not win the race".

It's part of the all new interview I had yesterday with Dupasquier. For those lucky to be Dutch, the rest of this will follow next week on F1-Planet.com (just to mention, no commercial message ;) )

[HSJ]

Ah, the ever improving 17D. The mythical car that improves without any physical evidence to show for it. Again, please check post-Silverstone Autosport for Jenkins/Piola. You have Ferrari, Williams, Renault, Toyota and BAR with improvements. No McLaren. So who's talking bullshit and who's not?

(Yeah, I know, there COULD be improvements beneath the skin, but why would McL be so silly as to make only those if they had a general program for improvements on the 17D? I don't see other teams being so sneaky. Luckily this could all change at Hockenheim where McL and Merc are supposed to introduce some improvements.)

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by HSJ
Ah, the ever improving 17D. The mythical car that improves without any physical evidence to show for it. Again, please check post-Silverstone Autosport for Jenkins/Piola. You have Ferrari, Williams, Renault, Toyota and BAR with improvements. No McLaren. So who's talking bullshit and who's not?

(Yeah, I know, there COULD be improvements beneath the skin, but why would McL be so silly as to make only those if they had a general program for improvements on the 17D? I don't see other teams being so sneaky. Luckily this could all change at Hockenheim where McL and Merc are supposed to introduce some improvements.)

Whatever. From the latest statements from wRONg and Whitmarsh one can conclude the following:

1. There is ongoing development on the 17D
2. They are not falling behind Williams
3. They are indeed in a position to challenge for victories and the championship.

Since this is information from the top men at Mclaren, there is no denying it. The rest is pure speculation from people who are not inside the team but sometimes, judging by the things they write can make you believe that they know more than wRONg and Co.

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by Menace


1) Do you think it is in the self-intrest of Mclaren to admit that they are behind their closest compatriots?

2) No forumer has been claiming MP4/17D will NOT BE DEVELOPED, especially SINCE THE MP4/18 was basically SCRATCHED FOR THE YEAR!? All we have been saying, which is/was true , is that Mclaren hasn't had significant developments since the first 4 races of the year, UNTIL NOW that is.

3) No embarassment caused, but your enthusiasm is appreciated.

1) So you know better what is going on at Mclaren than wRONg and Whitmarsh. On what grounds should we add more weight to your speculations than statements from the top men from Mclaren. Should we not believe them just because the things they say dont fit your agenda.

2. Wrong. Indeed forumers have claimed and are claiming that developments on the 17D have been frozen since the begining of the seasson and that there wont be anymore developments coming this year on the 17D. IF you have forgotten, do a post search. I can't bother wasting my time looking them up for you.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Amir_S


Whatever. From the latest statements from wRONg and Whitmarsh one can conclude the following:

1. There is ongoing development on the 17D
2. They are not falling behind Williams
3. They are indeed in a position to challenge for victories and the championship.

Since this is information from the top men at Mclaren, there is no denying it. The rest is pure speculation from people who are not inside the team but sometimes, judging by the things they write can make you believe that they know more than wRONg and Co.

You read the McLaren PR statements now like the bible? Wow, you're a bigger McLaren fan than I am!! ;)

So what are they going to say? "Nope, we haven't done anything on the car. Again. Isn't it embarrassing? Just a couple of races ago MINARDI introduced something new on their car. Not us though. Not our style. We're betting everything on the new world-beating EM-PEE-FOUR-EIGHTEEN, why would we bother with last year's crapmachine anymore?"

What are McLaren testing these days then (before the testing ban that is)? Of course the 18, but also tyres and setups for the coming races. Like they evaluated (reportedly) the newer Michelins used by Williams before Silverstone already, but still decided to not use them yet as they have had trouble getting them to work with the car; seems like they will at least try them at Hockenheim. For setups they try again the tyres and how they go with the car (wear rate etc.), but also which brake discs to use and things like that. Not really new parts.

Interesting by the way that apparently DC and KR gave different info/verdicts about the newer Michelins (wider fronts) that McLaren tried in a test. And McLaren went with what Kimi said. If they had gone with DC they might have used the new tyres. So Kimi has more say at McLaren these days? Of course that could be a false conclusion since it could also be that they decided based on some computer analysis rather than driver verdict, and it just coincided with what Kimi had said.

[Group B]

Priceless, now HSJ knows more about procedures at Mac than wRONg and Whitmarsh themselves.

You'd get more respect if you just gracefully backed down HSJ; your Kimi in a truck fantasy gets more ethereal by the day.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by HSJ
Interesting by the way that apparently DC and KR gave different info/verdicts about the newer Michelins (wider fronts) that McLaren tried in a test. And McLaren went with what Kimi said. If they had gone with DC they might have used the new tyres. So Kimi has more say at McLaren these days? Of course that could be a false conclusion since it could also be that they decided based on some computer analysis rather than driver verdict, and it just coincided with what Kimi had said.

Champ,
Kimi is their only hope this year for the WDC, do you think they are going to go with the tyres he likes the least of the options available?

[Menace]

Originally posted by Group B
Priceless, now HSJ knows more about procedures at Mac than wRONg and Whitmarsh themselves.

You'd get more respect if you just gracefully backed down HSJ; your Kimi in a truck fantasy gets more ethereal by the day.

For sure it ain't no truck. On it's day it can even be the class of the field. That doesn't change the fact that UNTIL NOW , there hasn't been any major developments on MP4/17D since Brazil.

The fight is extremely close at the front, but yet, most people agree MP4/17D has fallen behind the Williams, and Ferrari has been the class of the field all the time, when the tires are good.

Amir can try to downplay KR's achievements all he wants. That will not change anything in the mind of an objective F1 fan. Boring or not, KR is doing a superb job against a 5 times WDC who is clearly the class of the field.

[Menace]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
Champ,
Kimi is their only hope this year for the WDC, do you think they are going to go with the tyres he likes the least of the options available?

Take it easy on HSJ Nikolas.

[Julli]

Hi ,

RD has said (was it during Canada, can't remember where exactly) that they are working on three different project, the 17D, the 18 and the designing of MP4/19 has started. So they have three different projects going on, and surely all must agree that it takes resources from developing 17D as much as if there were only 18 and 19 to deal with. Other teams has their current car and next years car under work. So it can't be ignored that McLaren has three different project when comparing the development rate of different cars. And when they are still in the shot of WDC they can't throw 17D in to the trashcan. And if the MP18 is so revolunationary as it has been said, the systems of MP4/18 doesn't integrate to MP4/17D as easily as one might think.

And one more thing considering the drivebility of the cars. You have to be blind not to see that KR has much more work to do in the cockpit than lets say MS, RS or FA. Ferrari, Williams and Renault looks pretty easy to drive if you compare it to McLaren MP4/17D.

Julli

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by HSJ
Interesting by the way that apparently DC and KR gave different info/verdicts about the newer Michelins (wider fronts) that McLaren tried in a test. And McLaren went with what Kimi said. If they had gone with DC they might have used the new tyres. So Kimi has more say at McLaren these days? Of course that could be a false conclusion since it could also be that they decided based on some computer analysis rather than driver verdict, and it just coincided with what Kimi had said.

From what I heard it was because McLaren have gone beyond the 8 days before the race weekend deadline imposed by Michelins on any teams making tyre choices that they can't switch to the wider fronts.

But who knows?

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by Menace


1.For sure it ain't no truck. On it's day it can even be the class of the field. That doesn't change the fact that UNTIL NOW , there hasn't been any major developments on MP4/17D since Brazil.

2. The fight is extremely close at the front, but yet, most people agree MP4/17D has fallen behind the Williams, and Ferrari has been the class of the field all the time, when the tires are good.

3. Amir can try to downplay KR's achievements all he wants. That will not change anything in the mind of an objective F1 fan. Boring or not, KR is doing a superb job against a 5 times WDC who is clearly the class of the field.

1. I dont know what you mean by major, but Martin Whitmarsh has said that they have continiusly developed the 17D during the seasson.

2. Most people doesn't include wRONg and Martin Whitmarsh who think that they haven't fallen behind Williams and that they have a car, good enough to win the championship with. And they should know, afterall they run the team. Yes, when bridgestone tyres are as good as or better than Michelin Ferrari are class of the field. Problem is, that hasn't happened often enough.

3. No, I'm not trying to downplay Kimis achivements, I'm putting them in prespective. Yes, Kimi is doing a very good job. Yes, he makes too many mistakes. Yes he is unbearably boring. And yes, MS is still clearly the class of the field.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Amir_S
3. No, I'm not trying to downplay Kimis achivements, I'm putting them in prespective. Yes, Kimi is doing a very good job. Yes, he makes too many mistakes. Yes he is unbearably boring. And yes, MS is still clearly the class of the field.

[Ricardo F1]

It's a damn fine car. It's not as good as the Williams (now) or the Ferrari. It excels in race trim over qualifying and uses its tyres very well. The FW25 has come from a troublesome few races to the fore, Ferrari has always had the better car but for a couple of races suffered tyre wise. It'll be interesting to see how much farther they can push it but it's never going to be on par with the FW25 or F2003-GA for the remainder of the season.

[SupraDupra]

Originally posted by HSJ

(Yeah, I know, there COULD be improvements beneath the skin, but why would McL be so silly as to make only those if they had a general program for improvements on the 17D? I don't see other teams being so sneaky. Luckily this could all change at Hockenheim where McL and Merc are supposed to introduce some improvements.)

HSJ I suggest you go look at some pics of the 17D, note the front suspension, compare that to last years car, and then compare it to the MP4-18. There's a clearly visible improvement for you, leaving no room for doubt or arguments.

[SupraDupra]

Originally posted by Amir_S
3. No, I'm not trying to downplay Kimis achivements, I'm putting them in prespective. Yes, Kimi is doing a very good job. Yes, he makes too many mistakes. Yes he is unbearably boring. And yes, MS is still clearly the class of the field.

And Yes MS is unbearably boring, to be honest. And to be honest, he's making too many mistakes.

And in addition, I happen to have inside information that Kimi has been driving all races this year with his handbrake on, so that makes his achievments even more impressive ;)

[AndreasNystrom]

just one question, if we cant call Mclaren MP4/17D "last years car", what did we then call the Ferrari F2001 in 2002, and the 2002 in 2003?
i seem to remember the phrase "last years car" ...

[Claudius]

More comments from RD to confirm that 17D is not an old car

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/3119207.stm


"He reiterated his frustration with people continuing to describe the car McLaren are racing this season as "old".

He said the only part of the car's design that had been carried over from 2002 was its monocoque, the safety cell in which the driver sits - everything else was new. "


But I guess you can't convince people with an agenda...

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by Claudius
More comments from RD to confirm that 17D is not an old car

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/3119207.stm


"He reiterated his frustration with people continuing to describe the car McLaren are racing this season as "old".

He said the only part of the car's design that had been carried over from 2002 was its monocoque, the safety cell in which the driver sits - everything else was new. "


But I guess you can't convince people with an agenda...

Yep, some forumers are going to have a busy time cleaning the eggs from their faces

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Claudius
More comments from RD to confirm that 17D is not an old car

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/3119207.stm


"He reiterated his frustration with people continuing to describe the car McLaren are racing this season as "old".

He said the only part of the car's design that had been carried over from 2002 was its monocoque, the safety cell in which the driver sits - everything else was new. "


But I guess you can't convince people with an agenda...

Good God! Is this the level of your knowledge? Did you follow the off-season at all? RD is merely saying again what he said in the winter. Even then he said they've changed everything except the monocoque (the basic chassis).

So what? You can say the same thing of many cars during a season. They develop every part or almost every part except the monocoque. That doesn't make the car new. A new car is a new car. The monocoque is very simply the defining part of the car. It determines the basica aero package. You can tweak the wings all you like, but if the basic chassis remains the same you're not going to make big steps. It also determines the basic center or gravity, weight, and mostly the moment of inertia (when turning) / weight distribution. It also determines what kind of engine can you use. Mac have not been able to do better than have an upgrade of last year's engine on the 17D because nothing else fits the 17D. Can't use a new engine. And so on.

Ultimately all of that is not so important though. What's important is how good a chassis is, how good the engine, etc. And when you compare the year old Mac chassis, engine design etc. Well, it just isn't competitive with the latest cars from the other teams.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Claudius
More comments from RD to confirm that 17D is not an old car

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/3119207.stm


"He reiterated his frustration with people continuing to describe the car McLaren are racing this season as "old".

He said the only part of the car's design that had been carried over from 2002 was its monocoque, the safety cell in which the driver sits - everything else was new. "


But I guess you can't convince people with an agenda...

Because even McLaren fans no wRONg Denis is a liar.

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by HSJ


Good God! Is this the level of your knowledge? Did you follow the off-season at all? RD is merely saying again what he said in the winter. Even then he said they've changed everything except the monocoque (the basic chassis).

So what? You can say the same thing of many cars during a season. They develop every part or almost every part except the monocoque. That doesn't make the car new. A new car is a new car. The monocoque is very simply the defining part of the car. It determines the basica aero package. You can tweak the wings all you like, but if the basic chassis remains the same you're not going to make big steps. It also determines the basic center or gravity, weight, and mostly the moment of inertia (when turning) / weight distribution. It also determines what kind of engine can you use. Mac have not been able to do better than have an upgrade of last year's engine on the 17D because nothing else fits the 17D. Can't use a new engine. And so on.

Ultimately all of that is not so important though. What's important is how good a chassis is, how good the engine, etc. And when you compare the year old Mac chassis, engine design etc. Well, it just isn't competitive with the latest cars from the other teams.

Good God, I didn't know that you had deeper knowledge than wRONg about his own cars. Impressive

Keep us posted

[Arrow]

Originally posted by HSJ


Good God! Is this the level of your knowledge? Did you follow the off-season at all? RD is merely saying again what he said in the winter. Even then he said they've changed everything except the monocoque (the basic chassis).

So what? You can say the same thing of many cars during a season. They develop every part or almost every part except the monocoque. That doesn't make the car new. A new car is a new car. The monocoque is very simply the defining part of the car. It determines the basica aero package. You can tweak the wings all you like, but if the basic chassis remains the same you're not going to make big steps. It also determines the basic center or gravity, weight, and mostly the moment of inertia (when turning) / weight distribution. It also determines what kind of engine can you use. Mac have not been able to do better than have an upgrade of last year's engine on the 17D because nothing else fits the 17D. Can't use a new engine. And so on.

Ultimately all of that is not so important though. What's important is how good a chassis is, how good the engine, etc. And when you compare the year old Mac chassis, engine design etc. Well, it just isn't competitive with the latest cars from the other teams.

Now im convinced.
You really are adrian newey.

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by Arrow


Now im convinced.
You really are adrian newey.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Arrow


Now im convinced.
You really are adrian newey.

Oh no! The secret is out!

Good joke though.