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Count those cylinders... bizarre car engines?


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#1 petefenelon

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 12:46

OK chaps - prompted by discussion elsewhere.... let's think about cylinders and more specifically weird numbers thereof.....

1 - plenty of 500s, no real challenge there
2 - lots of little cars, up to even the unraced Ferrari parallel-twin
3 - DKWs, Saabs, etc.
4 - far too many to count!
5 - Audis, that Husqvarna based F2 engine, loads of VWs now...
6 - again, too many to count!
7 - ????
8 - goes without saying
9 - the rumoured W9 for a six-wheel Tyrrell-Renault?
10 - yeah.... well....
11 - I've heard of big MAN marine diesels with 11 cylinders...
12 - thousands of 'em....
13...?
14 - I can't for the life of me think of a 14-cylinder engine that's ever been near a car or truck! -- anyone ever put a Wright Cyclone in a car?;)
16 - quite a liot....
18 - the Franco Rocchi Ferrari W18 project?

TNF's mission, should it choose to accept it - anyone got any evidence of cars fitted with engines with peculiar numbers of cylinders? (7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15)?

I suspect a few radial oddities will be found with 7 and 9, I doubt there'll be an 11 or 13, but what about V14s? W15s? :)

And just for fun, what's the largest number of cylinders in a single internal-combustion engine that anyone's ever competed with?

pete

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#2 petefenelon

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 12:52

Originally posted by petefenelon

TNF's mission, should it choose to accept it - anyone got any evidence of cars fitted with engines with peculiar numbers of cylinders? (7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15)?

I suspect a few radial oddities will be found with 7 and 9, I doubt there'll be an 11 or 13, but what about V14s? W15s? :)

And just for fun, what's the largest number of cylinders in a single internal-combustion engine that anyone's ever competed with?

pete


Trossi-Monaco with a 9-cylinder radial! - so there's one down.

#3 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 13:16

From what I remember, there were radial 7 cylinder aeroplane engines, but used in cars? Hmm

Harry Miller once built two W24 engines for a speedboat, out of the top of my head he used components of the Liberty engines WWI engines. Don't have "The Miller Dynasty"at hand where that engine is described. I know, not a car engine but perhaps a contender for the most cylinders within a single engine?
Anyway, just to tell you that as a concept, the W24 was indeed built at least once.

W16 of that new "Buggy" and didn't the Bentley Mulsanne howcar have a W16 instead of a V16 as well?


Henri Greuter

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 13:21

17 - BRM H16 with a rod through the side :rolleyes: :p


Sorry - couldn't resist that one ..... :blush:

#5 petefenelon

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 13:24

Originally posted by Vitesse2
17 - BRM H16 with a rod through the side :rolleyes: :p


Sorry - couldn't resist that one ..... :blush:


LOL!

#6 petefenelon

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 13:27

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
From what I remember, there were radial 7 cylinder aeroplane engines, but used in cars? Hmm


W16 of that new "Buggy" and didn't the Bentley Mulsanne howcar have a W16 instead of a V16 as well?


Henri Greuter


7-cylinder radials have been used in tanks and other tracked AFVs (the LVT and the M3) - but I don't count that!;)

Interesting that we've got both types of 'W' mentioned now - the "broad arrow" with three banks off one crank and the "parallel pair of vees" with four banks and two cranks.

pete

#7 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 13:32

Pete,

Have a sense of humor for this one:

0!


(Rotaries and gas turbines)



Henri Greuter

#8 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 13:39

Pete,

Slightly more serious (given your two W options)

The U-16: Frank Lockhart's LSR machine had such an engine (effectively 1 Miller 91's parallel, geard to a single flywheel) later to be used in some Indycars.)

Packing 16 cylinders made engineers creative: V16, U16, H16, two different W16's


Henri Greuter

#9 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 13:42

oops....

The U-16: Frank Lockhart's LSR machine had such an engine (effectively 1 Miller 91's parallel, geard to a single flywheel) later to be used in some Indycars.)


make that: The U-16: Frank Lockhart's LSR machine had such an engine (effectively 2 Miller 91's parallel, geared to a single flywheel) later to be used in some Indycars.)

Like Harry Chapin once sung on his recod 6-string orchestra: "Do it fingers!"



Henri Greuter

#10 bill moffat

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 15:08

dare I mention the elusive Lola T227 with its hemi-turbocharged V7 ?

#11 dbw

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 15:16

pratt & whitney wasp major..r-4360...28 cyl..4,500 hp@2800rpm.
used in f2g corsair, they made pretty good racing engines too.. [1947 thompson,1-2,-qualifying speed;401.79......1949 thompson,1-2-3....qualifying speed;407.21....ol' cook cleland could make those babies haul ass....

#12 VAR1016

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 15:17

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
oops....

The U-16: Frank Lockhart's LSR machine had such an engine (effectively 1 Miller 91's parallel, geard to a single flywheel) later to be used in some Indycars.)


make that: The U-16: Frank Lockhart's LSR machine had such an engine (effectively 2 Miller 91's parallel, geared to a single flywheel) later to be used in some Indycars.)

Like Harry Chapin once sung on his recod 6-string orchestra: "Do it fingers!"



Henri Greuter


And of course, Bugatti used this layout in the Type 47 and Type 50 cars. Maserati used it in the fearsome "Seidici Cylindri" in 1934.

Finally what about Sir Roy Fedden's prototype road car of the late 1940s? Vertical three-cylinder radial engine at the rear and swing axles.

Apparently there were some handling problems....


PdeRL

#13 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 16:02

Originally posted by petefenelon
Trossi-Monaco with a 9-cylinder radial! - so there's one down.


Not 9, but 16. The engine has eight finned blocks around the crankcase. Each block contains two cylinders with common combustion chambers (source - DCN's Motor Racing Mavericks). Just to make quite sure, I counted them at Goodwood. :)

#14 David Beard

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 16:24

Originally posted by bill moffat
dare I mention the elusive Lola T227 with its hemi-turbocharged V7 ?


I thought you might.....

#15 David Beard

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 16:26

What about the KOHLER Hydro 13?

#16 petefenelon

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 16:29

Originally posted by Tim Murray


Not 9, but 16. The engine has eight finned blocks around the crankcase. Each block contains two cylinders with common combustion chambers (source - DCN's Motor Racing Mavericks). Just to make quite sure, I counted them at Goodwood. :)


Damn - that book's at home ;) but you're right... though even number of cylinders in a radial is odd (as it were) and I've seen it quoted as nine cylinders somewhere!

pete

#17 VAR1016

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 16:30

Originally posted by petefenelon


Damn - that book's at home ;) but you're right... though even number of cylinders in a radial is odd (as it were) pete


That's because it's a two-stroke.

PdeRL

#18 petefenelon

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 16:31

Originally posted by David Beard
What about the KOHLER Hydro 13?


It's only single-cylinder ;)

My other half's just got a free pressure-washer.... ;P

pete

#19 David Beard

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 16:38

Originally posted by petefenelon


It's only single-cylinder ;)

My other half's just got a free pressure-washer.... ;P

pete


You had to check though...

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#20 David Beard

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 18:02

Can I ask whether a two minus one is of interest?
I'm fascinated that Moss apparently raced a 500 F3 (can't remember whether this was a Cooper or a Kieft) using a 1000cc JAP V twin engine with one barrel removed and a 500 single crank installed, because there was some obscure advantage....

#21 petefenelon

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 20:16

Originally posted by David Beard
Can I ask whether a two minus one is of interest?
I'm fascinated that Moss apparently raced a 500 F3 (can't remember whether this was a Cooper or a Kieft) using a 1000cc JAP V twin engine with one barrel removed and a 500 single crank installed, because there was some obscure advantage....


Ah yes, the 'sloper'. I'm not sure that was an 'unfair advantage', more it could enter F2 races and not be embarrassed when it ran as a 1000 V-twin...?

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 00:46

Somewhere some time... John Medley might remember...

There was a Ford V8 powered car had some problem in a race, the offending piston and rod were removed and it went on without them.

Does that count?

#23 MPea3

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 01:03

was frank lockart's combo of 2 miller 91's parallel or at a slight angle?

#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 03:44

And what about the Alfa Tipo A?

Two sixes side by side, contra-rotating and geared together?

Each with their own gearbox and final drive...

#25 Evo One

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:29

How about zero cylinders like the Wankels ;)

#26 just me again

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:44

Does Tractor-Pulling count,

http://www.tractorpu...tarfighter.html

This one have a Curtiss & Wright 18 cyl 54.9 l. engine on 3800 hp, and the weight is "only" 3500kg

Bjørn

#27 just me again

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:50

And a 14 cyl one

http://www.tractorpu...r/starwars.html

Bjørn

#28 D-Type

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:57

Didn't some of the small Japanese racing motorcycles have strange numbers of cylinders?
I seem to remember a 7-cylinder 125 Suzuki.
Or is this deviating from the point?

#29 VAR1016

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 09:05

Originally posted by D-Type
Didn't some of the small Japanese racing motorcycles have strange numbers of cylinders?
I seem to remember a 7-cylinder 125 Suzuki.
Or is this deviating from the point?


Certainly Honda made a five-cylinder 125 - and it had four valves per cylinder - and 22,000rpm.

PdeRL

#30 Catalina Park

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 09:27

Fancy changing the plugs on this baby!

Posted Image

#31 just me again

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 09:54

a link to the 5 cyl Honda

http://www.vf750fd.c...1965.html#RC148

Bjørn

#32 WDH74

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Posted 26 July 2003 - 05:14

I probably have it backwards, but wasn't the Miller U-16 aero engine actually a license built Bugatti engine? I seem to recall reading about the technical advisors to the US military being given a lot of grief for trying to bring the engineers (who were German) back from Europe to help build the prototype.
I also remember reading about this engine's frailties-apparently the twin crankshafts would flex as revs rose, and eventually they'd meet. Destructively, needless to say.
But like I said, I prolly got this backasswards.
-William

#33 Bladrian

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Posted 26 July 2003 - 07:31

@Catalina Park:


I was helpless with laughter on reading your sig. That's the funniest damn thing I've read this year. Thank you.

#34 Lotus23

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Posted 26 July 2003 - 23:38

Multi-engine vehicles are probably OT here, but a number of Bonneville specials come to mind, incl Mickey Thompson's LSR car with 4 (Pontiac?) V8's hooked together.

I've seen tractor-pull competitors running 2, 3, 4 and even 5 big V8's all pointing in the same general direction: loudest noises I've heard this side of a Top Fuel dragster.

#35 antonvrs

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 05:36

I probably have this all wrong but- wasn't there a DKW racing motorbike with 3 cylinders where one was used to pressurise the other two?
And I remember reading in Car and Driver(or maybe it was still SCI then) about a dragster called the Queer Indian which used a Pontiac 4cyl to drive a blower which fed a much larger Pontiac V8. Real or fictious, it was an amusing idea.
Anton

#36 petefenelon

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 11:37

Originally posted by Lotus23
Multi-engine vehicles are probably OT here, but a number of Bonneville specials come to mind, incl Mickey Thompson's LSR car with 4 (Pontiac?) V8's hooked together.

I've seen tractor-pull competitors running 2, 3, 4 and even 5 big V8's all pointing in the same general direction: loudest noises I've heard this side of a Top Fuel dragster.


I was watching some tractor-pulling on TV recently. Rather took me aback. The chap with four helicopter gas turbines was weird enough, and as for the guy who actually added/subtracted another Keith Black hemi depending on which class he was running in at the time (it normally ran with 5, but he took one off to go down a class...) well... I was speechless!

pete

#37 Aanderson

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 22:37

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
oops....

The U-16: Frank Lockhart's LSR machine had such an engine (effectively 1 Miller 91's parallel, geard to a single flywheel) later to be used in some Indycars.)


make that: The U-16: Frank Lockhart's LSR machine had such an engine (effectively 2 Miller 91's parallel, geared to a single flywheel) later to be used in some Indycars.)

Like Harry Chapin once sung on his recod 6-string orchestra: "Do it fingers!"



Henri Greuter


And,

Lockhart's "U-16" was used in the 30's by Alden Sampson to power a number of Indy entries, and after WW-II, comic bandleader Spike Jones campaigned the Sampson with the Lockhart engine until 1948. The car, and engine, are now on display in the Museum at Indianapolis.

Art Anderson

#38 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 July 2003 - 22:50

The engines of Eric Verkade's road-legal conversion of a Maserati V4 GP car:

Posted Image

And the car:

Posted Image

#39 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 July 2003 - 14:22

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Fancy changing the plugs on this baby!

Posted Image


Musing over this baby, I couldn't work it out at all...

But seeing another picture or two made it all plain. Of course, with CP spelling it out in words of one syllable it was easy.

...'five' 'Dodge' 'en-gines' 'geared' 'as' 'one' 'for' 'a' 'tank'...

Thirty cylinders - you'd think that would be enough!

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#40 Geoff E

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Posted 02 August 2003 - 20:15

There was a seven cylinder radially-engined Salmson on display at Prescott today.

#41 Aanderson

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 01:50

Originally posted by WDH74
I probably have it backwards, but wasn't the Miller U-16 aero engine actually a license built Bugatti engine? I seem to recall reading about the technical advisors to the US military being given a lot of grief for trying to bring the engineers (who were German) back from Europe to help build the prototype.
I also remember reading about this engine's frailties-apparently the twin crankshafts would flex as revs rose, and eventually they'd meet. Destructively, needless to say.
But like I said, I prolly got this backasswards.
-William


The "U-16" Bugatti you are referring to was license-built in the US as the 'King-Bugatti", by none other than the Brothers Duesenberg in 1917-18, in Elizabeth NJ. At the time, Fred and August Duesenbergs had a number of engine designs to their credit, while Harry Miller was still primarily a carburetor manufacturer.

Bugatti's U-16 Aero engine was not noted for its success, it was far too heavy, and suffered from a lack of power. Duesenberg Motors, Inc., were able to reduce the weight considerably, and also increased the power output enough to satisfy the US War Department to order it in large numbers, but the war ended before many were produced. Even still, for something like 150 hp, this engine weighs in (at least according to the placard on the unit displayed at the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Museum in Auburn IN a few years back) at something like 1000 lbs (or just a bit heavier than an Auburn V-16 engine of 1931-33).

I believe the Lockhart 16 was a U-16 (two cranks, geared together) with the blocks angled slightly away from each other, due to the need for clearance of the two intake cams, and space for intake manifolding.

However, perhaps the earliest "U-16" in racing activity was the 1921 Duesenberg Daytona LSR car, which used two Duesenberg 300cid SOHC straight eights, geared together, but not with a common crankcase, IIRC, but rather just two straight 8 engines mounted side-by-side.

While of course, not racing engines, there were a few "odd duck" engines experimented with in early days: Ford, in the middle 20's, built an inline 5-cylinder flathead, years before anyone else even considered that arrangement, along with an X-8, two cylinders paired together, aircooled, 2 blocks on top, two on the bottom. Neither engine was particularly successful at the time.

In 1907, the Adams-Farwell car used a 5-cylinder rotary engine, mounted flat in the rear of the car, where the trunk or roadster turtle deck would be. Rotary piston engines had their crankshaft bolted to the chassis (or the firewall of the aircraft), and the crankcase & cylinders rotated around that, geared to whatever drive system was used (bolted to propellor on an airplane, as in the Sopwith Camel).

In 1931, Packard built an experimental straight-TWELVE engine, that's right, 12 cylinders all in a row. This engine, mounted in a modified Packard V-12 chassis, was driven on the road through the end of WW-II, when it was finally scrapped.

Oh well, odd engines, and odd cylinder counts.....

Art Anderson

#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 02:04

Originally posted by Aanderson
.....Ford, in the middle 20's, built an inline 5-cylinder flathead, years before anyone else even considered that arrangement.....


I had read that this engine, or at least a similar one, was the subject of experimentation about 1940/41, and that it had proved to be notably powerful for what it was...

However, it was too difficult to get it balanced, apparently. I have often referred to this elsewhere on TNF and in the Technical forum, nobody has ever said it happened in the twenties before.

#43 petefenelon

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 09:51

Ford had an approximately 1.2l three-cylinder two-stroke in the early nineties, but it never saw the light of day. A former colleague who worked on powertrain stuff for the Blue Oval drove a test hack fitted with it and said it felt as powerful and responsive as a two-litre four-stroke V6...

#44 Macca

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 13:07

I seem to remember that Jaguar were said to be developing various 2-strokes for future ranges a couple of years ago, but it has all gone quiet now - anyone know why?

Honda are currently using a V5 in Moto GP bike racing - how on earth do they balance it?

Paul Mackness

#45 VAR1016

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 16:56

Gabriel Voisin was reputed to have built a straight 12 too.
PdeRL

#46 Tim Murray

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 08:46

Originally posted by Geoff E
There was a seven cylinder radially-engined Salmson on display at Prescott today.

See this interesting site (found by David Beard) for a picture of the beast.

http://www.motorsnip...p?ArticleID=355

It has nine cylinders though, not seven.

#47 soubriquet

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 04:37

Originally posted by petefenelon
Ford had an approximately 1.2l three-cylinder two-stroke in the early nineties, but it never saw the light of day. A former colleague who worked on powertrain stuff for the Blue Oval drove a test hack fitted with it and said it felt as powerful and responsive as a two-litre four-stroke V6...


That would have been the Orbital Technologies Fiesta. The trick parts were in the fuel injection system. My mole reported good figures, but there were issues with production engineeering. IIRC, the system was briefly and unsuccessfully used by Johnson.

#48 mdecarle

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 07:10

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Pete,

Have a sense of humor for this one:

0!
(Rotaries and gas turbines)

Henri Greuter


I was going to suggest, for this purpose, to call the stator of a rotary engine a "cylinder". ;)

Then we can add the experimental Citroen Ami (they were going to built a tri-rotor, but almost got broke and got acquired by Peugeot) and the now-being-built (an stunning looking) Mazda RX8 ... for having 2 of them. I'm not sure but didn't the NSU Ro80 have 2 as well?

Mario.

#49 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 08:32

Most production Wankel engines were twin-rotor...

Notable exception was the Mercedes C111... but that never made it to production anyway.

There are some single rotor engines around, often in amusement park racing cars and the like...

#50 Graham Clayton

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:49

OK chaps - prompted by discussion elsewhere.... let's think about cylinders and more specifically weird numbers thereof.....

9 - the rumoured W9 for a six-wheel Tyrrell-Renault?

TNF's mission, should it choose to accept it - anyone got any evidence of cars fitted with engines with peculiar numbers of cylinders? (7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15)?

I suspect a few radial oddities will be found with 7 and 9, I doubt there'll be an 11 or 13, but what about V14s? W15s? :)
pete


Pete,
Not a racing car, but in 1927 New Yorker Durward E Willis attempted to produce a 9 cylinder car which he named after himself. The 9 cylinders were cast in blocks of three, and provided for an independent firing order much like a radial engine. After testing the engine in a Gardner sedan, production was planned, with a 7-passenger sedan selling for $4,500. Willis also planned a 5 cylinder engine, as well as a 3 cylinder engine to be sold as the Dew (Willis' initials). Production never eventuated.