45 replies to this topic

[Pine]

http://www.west-racing.com/news.htm

[StickShift]

er, where? Last I see is 16th Feb 2003.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by StickShift
er, where? Last I see is 16th Feb 2003.

Top of the page? Works for me . . .

[Arrow]

These guys are jokers.

They been working on this for the last 6 years and still no demo.
Its never coming.

[kanec]

Originally posted by Arrow
These guys are jokers.

They been working on this for the last 6 years and still no demo.
Its never coming.

Just over a year since it was announced.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

At the pace they're going, Wests have to start having children to take over for them when they get old.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by kanec


Just over a year since it was announced.

No they were working on WSC since 98.
They ran into publishing problems or something and then decided to branch off and make it racing legends.
WSC was due in 2000.

[kanec]

And the publisher kept the rights to what was made of WSC. RL is a completely different project.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by kanec
And the publisher kept the rights to what was made of WSC. RL is a completely different project.

I dont beleive that.
The code isnt the publishers property

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Arrow


I dont beleive that.
The code isnt the publishers property

Sure it is. Actually it depends on the deal - we do deals that we own code, we share ownership with the developer or with developers that have more bargaining chips that they own it. But to be honest it's pretty pointless either way, they'd be able to re-write it within six months anyway, probably cleaner than the original code was as well.

The basis of what is RL was started around 1996 actually, when the West Brothers were still part of King of the Jungle. If they ever produce a final version it'll be a miracle, but I wouldn't put it past them in the slightest, they're both bloody brilliant when they put their minds to it.

[Linus27]

Coool, that should keep us going for another 10 months of no news.

The Wests are jokes. Why they sell there house for a start? i do not see LFS ot Netkar guys selling there houses.

I won't hold my breath on this sim.

[kanec]

I agree they are there own worst enemy when it comes to PR but do think you're being overly harsh Linus?

Isn't what we ultimately want, what they describe there vision to be?

Think of it this way... they've put everything on the line to make this racing sim reality. What do we lose if they fail to get this out the door compared to what they will lose? Only time waiting. So as you said don't hold your breath = no loss.

[Linus27]

kanec

Yep, very true. We have also only seen renders, no in game shots yet which is dissapointing.

Time will tell but at this rate I might get to drive RL when I am collecting my pension. For me, I just need a little more from them to be convinced. Whats it been, a year since RL is announced and all we have seen is a few renders. No movies, in game shots, no demo. Just seems very very slow.

[kanec]

Yep totally agree with that. It is disappointing the way it has gone so far.

I actually think they shouldn't have posted any news until they had a demo. Just given a refresh to the FAQ pages to let us know its still alive. Throw in a screenshots page so they can just update a simple section occassionally and then leave it at that until a beta or demo was ready to be released and they had a firm date.

[Rediscoveryx]

Even if they are as gifted game developers (or whatever it's called) as they are claimed to be, there's no doubt that they're not gifted business men. If I were in their shoes, I'd produce a simple arcade style racing game with top-notch graphics (which they're undoubtedly able to produce), give that game a year or so then publish it (or sell the rights to another company).

From the profit of that game they could be able to hire a couple of gifted developers to help them and speed up the game's development, because at the rate their going, we won't see the game for another ten years or so. This strategy would probably see the game out on the market much earlier than the one their working on right now...

[Linus27]

Kanec

Yep, agree with you fully. The sad thing is its so obvious what they should be doing yet they simply don't do it. That update, could cause more bad than good as all it shows is they have done pretty much sod all for the last 6 months. OK, its exciting we have an update but its all pretty lame and will only keep people happy for a few more weeks. If they go silent again for another 6 months then people will really get pissed off. I myself don't go checking the site and forum anymore. Its a waste of time and others feel the same.

[Ricardo F1]

The funny thing is with selling their house . . . I mean they've been paid TWICE by seperate publishers to produce a bloody racing game (first by Virgin, then by Empire) and couldn't do it, amusing that they still believe they can do it without being paid. :

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
Even if they are as gifted game developers (or whatever it's called) as they are claimed to be, there's no doubt that they're not gifted business men. If I were in their shoes, I'd produce a simple arcade style racing game with top-notch graphics (which they're undoubtedly able to produce), give that game a year or so then publish it (or sell the rights to another company).

From the profit of that game they could be able to hire a couple of gifted developers to help them and speed up the game's development, because at the rate their going, we won't see the game for another ten years or so. This strategy would probably see the game out on the market much earlier than the one their working on right now...

There is a problem with your second paragraph. Wests stated some time ago that they can't trust somebody else to help them develop, since they are perfectionists and wouldn't be able to cope with somebody elses' imperfection, they can only work with each other. They think that they can work just as fast as development team, though.

My take? Inability to delegate has ruined many promising careers. I wonder how long they had to build up the courage to take Gregor Vebble on board, they must've been totally lost in the physics department to be forced to take such a drastic step.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
The funny thing is with selling their house . . . I mean they've been paid TWICE by seperate publishers to produce a bloody racing game (first by Virgin, then by Empire) and couldn't do it, amusing that they still believe they can do it without being paid. :

I can only look at the way they are working in bemused horror. I mean YES its nice for the back of the dashboard on a car to be perfect in every detail. But it isnt exactly CORE functionality is it?

He gives the impression of having spent 6 months working on detailing one car. Thats modder territory not the sort of thing that gets a game released. Ive had a similiar experience with a guy who wanted to spend 3 days arguing over the shape of a hatch on a tank (and not over an error, just over which hatch variant was most appropriate).. its important to get things right, but not THAT important.

Not that working outside the normal Game industry model is necessarily all bad as lets face it lots of companies are wasting lots of money making games quite badly.. but this makes no sense I think. A real shame, as Ive no doubt they have the necessary talent.

btw ricardo, can you drop me a mail on stf@ihug.co.nz, I tried to mail you, think it never got there

Shaun

[Ricardo F1]

Mailed yer . . .did yer get it?

[baddog]

thanks yep, will reply forthwith (i.e. when I am at home and not actually asleep..)

Shaun

[umma gumma]

it looks to me like they've just been playing around with some 3D modelling software & built a super detailed car.

using something like that in a game engine would be totally impractical...maybe in 10 years when we have 120 GHz processors, 500 gigs of RAM and graphics cards that can render the moon, realtime, in 1:1 scale, it might work.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I'm just wondering, do Wests have no income going to them during this project, or do they have some projects on the side to make a buck or two?

[Liquid]

I think the whole thing is a wind up. Nice rendered images but no evidence of any real code. It's a shame because the concept is an excellent one.

[A3]

Originally posted by Liquid
I think the whole thing is a wind up. Nice rendered images but no evidence of any real code. It's a shame because the concept is an excellent one.

Yup, think so too. The 3d renders are there, but everything else is extremele vague.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller
I'm just wondering, do Wests have no income going to them during this project, or do they have some projects on the side to make a buck or two?

Not that I'm aware of.

Chris is a bloody talented coder though, and I saw a physics demo of theirs years ago - it was impressive at the time. I've no doubt they can do it . . . if they had a team of people on it.

[Pine]

Originally posted by Liquid
I think the whole thing is a wind up.

I can't think of a reason why anyone would want to do that

[A3]

No? Fame. Boredom. Because you can create a hype on the internet if you want to.

[kanec]

It's not a wind up.

[Pine]

Fame? Unless they want to become famous as major league a**holes, I don't think they have a reason to do all that just for the wind up.
Boredom? I think you have to be very bored, and actually quite sick, to do this because of boredom.
Hype? OK, say they did it for the hype. They had their hype. Now what?

I think the goals they set for themselves are extremely high, that they have a lot to leaen about PR and that their estimated release dates are way too optimistic for such a small team. I also have the impression that they don't exactly work 16 hours a day on Racing Legends - not even close. But I believe that they do intend to release a very very good racing sim one day. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me.

Am I being naive here?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I think they're the ones being naive. I think that Wests believe that they can finish the game, but listening to them, I think they don't know what they got themselves into. They strike me as highly brilliant, but highly undisciplined people who have absolutely no concept of getting things done, and the compromises necessary in their vision. They also sound like they have no understanding of the goals they're trying to accomplish. They're trying to create the car by fitting parts that interact with each other? Even assuming that they can gather enough information about real cars to recreate them, the processing power required is in the supercomputer range. If they can figure out how to do this on PC, they shouldn't waste their time on RL, they should go work in Detroit or Munich, they'll earn millions. At the same time, they want to develop state of the art multiplayer and graphics engine? Somebody's a bit optimistic.

[skinnylizard]

i actually started another thread along these lines. i was talking about creating a sim etc etc and was told to be very wary of how the West guys went about it. i can see how people are upset because when you start a forum and create awareness there is a level of trust and expectation that forms. not being able to deliver on time or a quality product its violating.
the thread i am talking about is here for those interested
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=59585
had some great inputs from Linus 27 and Dimitry _Guller

I think the whole perfection excuse is ridiculous because perfection again is chasing ghosts. You will always find something or the other to improve which is why u have extensions and patches.
West should have from the starting -
gotten together with programmers working cheap (like in India) and spent more time in creating a communication set up where they could come together and exchange information with ease.
this would let them have creative control and allow them to monitor quality without sacrificing years.
for around 20,000 pounds or so(i know great ways of briunging even that down)you could have a team of around 4-6 game developers working for them probably cutting time by a great many thousand hours.

I can understand the need for being in control since i am running a design firm and its frustrating. but i learn the hard way that u cant do it alone. its not happening.

in the end they could have had it all.

deliver and satisfy. all else i think is bullshit.
xxx
www.pi-media.com

[Ricardo F1]

It's not in their nature though. They worked as a team along with another group of guys back in the early 90's doing some fairly decent stuff (Licence to Kill and a couple of other titles for Domark - the Commodore 64 version Chris wrote, the graphics for all formats Tony did) ; they they joined up with Mev Dink and did a really cool racing game for Ubisoft called Street Racer that sold loads and made them a tidy sum - though it made Vivid Image who they worked for a load more. So they up and left and helped form another group. Couldn't work together with anyone there so went out on their own . . .that was six years ago.

Dmitriy_Guller is right in a lot of what he perceives, but the funny thing is that these guys have produced commerically successful products in the past when managed and held accountable. Without anyone to tell them what to do or how to do it they've simply floundered - talent or not.

[kanec]

Another update up.

http://www.racing-legends.com/news.htm

[A3]

So far it's a great 3d-modeling project.

But modeling damage to pistons and crankshafts in game?

Renders are great, but anyone knows the current computers can't render detail like that in-game.

I want to see their 3D engine, let's see what's left of the detail then....

[mahelgel]

a3:
agreed...

Not sure how long they have been working on that ONE car, but if they are going to have several cars available in the game, this is going to take a lot of time ;)

[baddog]

Originally posted by A3
So far it's a great 3d-modeling project.

But modeling damage to pistons and crankshafts in game?

Renders are great, but anyone knows the current computers can't render detail like that in-game.

I want to see their 3D engine, let's see what's left of the detail then....

I dont actually agree.. I DO think the system requirements would be very high, but a very very good designer and a coder who actually writes performance code (and there are depressingly few of THOSE in the industry these days) can do a lot more than most games would lead you to imagine

Shaun

[baddog]

additionally Ive been looking at the detail picture of the internals of the engine.. and its very nicely designed, having nowhere near so many polygons as an initial glance would lead you to believe.

of course it would still be probably the highest polygon object Ive seen in a game engine yet.. but then every year polygon counts increase, and the drivers own car will be needed precisely ONCE in the game..

Shaun

[babbel]

It's now december and it still looks like a fancy render project rather than an actual game :

[Peter Perfect]

Is this some kind of joke? The October update showing their latest work has a picture of the Lotus lorry

Shouldn't they be working on the engine of the game?

Isn't that a bit more important than spending hours perfecting a team van?

[kanec]

There's two guys working on the physics, graphics engine. One guy working on the content with no know-how on the coding side of things.

While the codes being written it doesn't really matter what content is being worked on as long as the basics are there for testing the physics/graphics.

While thats all well and good, I share your concern on what they are doing showing renders like that.

[rhpearson]

Without having read this entire thread... it has indeed been many years that the Wests have been promising a racing sim that will blow all others away. I first heard of it in 1998 when I was gangbusters for editing tracks using Paul Hoad's track editor for GP2.

As for all the pretty 3D renders that show up now and then, the truth is renders can be made without ever having a sim to pull them from.

Maybe they never tried to sell their idea to a real gaming publisher and that is why it has never taken off? Their ideas are impressive... but not much seems to come from it.

[Ricardo F1]

Oh they've been selling it to publishers, for a considerable number of years. The first time was actually 1995 when they set up King of the Jungle with another group of developers. Virgin had it at that point, they then split from KotJ and Virgin and it reappeared years later with Empire. Empire then dumped it . . . and the rest is where they are. The two brothers are highly talented but they couldn't finish a bowl of soup.

[MCH]

It looked so damn fine

http://www.bhmotorsports.com/WSC

I really hope they'll be able to release Racing Legends. I've got no doubt they wouldn't want to release/finish this. The overal community reaction on their last website update must've got them thinking though.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Oh they've been selling it to publishers, for a considerable number of years. The first time was actually 1995 when they set up King of the Jungle with another group of developers. Virgin had it at that point, they then split from KotJ and Virgin and it reappeared years later with Empire. Empire then dumped it . . . and the rest is where they are. The two brothers are highly talented but they couldn't finish a bowl of soup.

Perfectionism coupled with adult attention deficit disorder isn't all it's cracked up to be. I hope they don't starve to death with their mindset.

[Pine]

Chris West explaining the current situation of Racing Legends and the lack of updates recently:

http://www.west-raci...=ST&f=1&t=2395

All I can say is good luck West brothers and thank God for netKar!