25 replies to this topic

[dpardyrx7]

David Coulthard's driving days in F1 are in their twighlight and unless something miraculous happens he will probably never realize the goal of the WDC. His career will have been respectable with poles and wins that makes him a second tier, but non champion driver. In my mind there were two turning points in David's career that may have resulted in him not winning the WDC.
1. At the end of 1995 he left Williams to make room for Villeneuve - who went on to win the WDC in 1997. If Coulthard had managed to stay would he have won the WDC in 1997?
2. At the first race of 1998, David while leading the race pitted to allow Mika to pass him because of a screw up in earlier pit communications. Did this "gentlemanly" move foil his opportunity to win the WDC in 1998?

Who knows......

[Megatron]

He will be like a Gerhard Berger, great on his day, but overall, just a slightly above average driver.

He's had a career that many would love to have had, but I know Coulthard wants more.

[skinnylizard]

i thnk all drivers want more. but to call him a second tier driver is def unfair and uncool. the guy has had like 13 victories i think and hell have a few more. u cant win races if u arent good. u can luck into one or two. but a dozen is talent.
he might not be a great but he is no II tier.
xxx
www.pi-media.com

[Nikolas Garth]

If next year McLaren get it right and Michelin maintain their dominance, stranger things have happened.

[Ricardo F1]

I think 98 he wouldn't have won, Melbourne or not, he's a very good top tier F1 driver but I think in the end Mika had the edge when they had the car. 95 he didn't leave to make room for Villeneuve, Williams wanted him to stay but he'd been offered a load more cash to go to McLaren - who didn't exactly have a shabby reputation either. I think he's pretty much already said that was his greatest error in F1, had he stayed at Williams he might have won back to back titles in 96 and 97. C'est la vie.

[bock16]

Didn't he sign an option for McLaren as early as the end of '94 when there was speculation about whether he or Mansell would get the Williams seat for 95?

I also think letting Mika win (both in Jerez '97 and Australia '98) cost him. Up until that point he had been the one to challenge for the win when the car was good (Monaco '96, Australia '97, Italy '97) and there was a feeling that Mika was so unlucky he would never win. Once Mika broke his duck there was no stopping him and DC was essentially defeated.

[kenjafield]

If the new McLaren races next year and is fast, and DC knows that it's possibly his last year with a top team he may produce more dominance and talent than ever before (like Hill '96).

Then again he may simply fade away

[Sarin]

1. No
2. No

[BRG]

1. Yes
2. Yes

[Oho]

Originally posted by bock16
Didn't he sign an option for McLaren as early as the end of '94 when there was speculation about whether he or Mansell would get the Williams seat for 95?

I also think letting Mika win (both in Jerez '97 and Australia '98) cost him. Up until that point he had been the one to challenge for the win when the car was good (Monaco '96, Australia '97, Italy '97) and there was a feeling that Mika was so unlucky he would never win. Once Mika broke his duck there was no stopping him and DC was essentially defeated.

Ave !!!

1) Perhaps,
2) Not really,

In 97 in 10 remaining races after France up to which point David was the stronger in for the season David did not once outqualify Mika and only led Mika primarily on merit on track once at Monza, the truth is that once Mika got on his feet at Silverstone David no longer had what it took to consistently challenge him. Jerez and Melbourne are primarily scapegoats. Oh Mika did challenge for victories in the bottom half of 97 quite few times retiring from lead three times at Silverstone, A1 and Nyrnburgring. David simply did not have the speed to consistently challenge let alone beat Mika while Mika gave a damn, it now seems history is repeting itself with Kimi.

- Oho -

[The RedBaron]

1) Maybe
2) No

[Bart]

Originally posted by bock16
Didn't he sign an option for McLaren as early as the end of '94 when there was speculation about whether he or Mansell would get the Williams seat for 95?

My understanding is also that Sir Frank's resurrection of Mansell in 1994 made DC uncertain about his future and so eager to sign with anyone. Sir Frank was always going to sign Villeneuve for 1996, so one of the two drivers was going bye-bye. The question is really could DC have won the WDC in 1996 with Hill out of the way? One would have to say "yes", since DC appeared to have the edge on Hill in terms of speed towards the end of 1995.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by skinnylizard
i thnk all drivers want more. but to call him a second tier driver is def unfair and uncool. the guy has had like 13 victories i think and hell have a few more. u cant win races if u arent good. u can luck into one or two. but a dozen is talent.
he might not be a great but he is no II tier.
xxx
www.pi-media.com

[taran]

Originally posted by skinnylizard
i thnk all drivers want more. but to call him a second tier driver is def unfair and uncool. the guy has had like 13 victories i think and hell have a few more. u cant win races if u arent good. u can luck into one or two. but a dozen is talent.
he might not be a great but he is no II tier.
xxx
www.pi-media.com

Normally I'd agree with you. You don't luck into 13 GP wins.
But then, if you stay in one of the top seats for most of your career, you will score significantly more "lucky wins" than other drivers who usually have 2 or 3 years at best in a good car if they don't really show they are top notch.

So IMO Coulthard is exactly a second tier driver. He is competent and if everything falls into place, he is even able to race with the leaders but generally he can't cut it at the very top level.

I think you should rate a driver on how well he has done considering the equipment (and/or circumstances; see Rubens at Ferrari. You don't really expect him to win the championship with Todt and Schumacher there as well???).

As has been said so often, Coulthard has had good cars for most of his career. His teammate won 2 titles with them. What has David really to show for these years except some wins and lots of pretty girls?

Undoubtedly, he has good qualities as a driver "package" or McLaren would not have retained him for so long but to call Coulthard an ace is an insult to the truly great drivers of F1, past and present.

[GadgetMan]

Whenever I compare DC with JVi, I always come back to the same conclusion:

At least, JVi made it count when he had the car to win. DC got more kicks at the can than any driver in F1 history but could never make it count, even once.

There you go.

GadgetMan

[kismet]

In a way it would be highly amusing if DC was shown the door at McLaren, signed by some midfield team, teamed up with one of those ridiculously overrated neverbeens with cult popularity on BBs - and he'd end up mopping the floor with his new teammate.

It might just happen.

[davegp3]

Originally posted by bock16


I also think letting Mika win (both in Jerez '97 and Australia '98) cost him. Up until that point he had been the one to challenge for the win when the car was good (Monaco '96, Australia '97, Italy '97) and there was a feeling that Mika was so unlucky he would never win. Once Mika broke his duck there was no stopping him and DC was essentially defeated.

I Agree with that. This was turning point for David's career. I think he was better than Mika in '97 and won 2 races(Jerez was his win in fact,not Mika's). After that everything went wrong in 98-99.
The only period of time, when he was at top of self-confidence again was after that plane crash in 2000. But it didn't last for long and Dennis wanted Mika to win WDC for the third time.

You can see how things went wrong for him. He could have won WDC, if he stayed at Williams or not let Mika win in Jerez 97.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by kismet
In a way it would be highly amusing if DC was shown the door at McLaren, signed by some midfield team, teamed up with one of those ridiculously overrated neverbeens with cult popularity on BBs - and he'd end up mopping the floor with his new teammate.

It might just happen.

------

It's really sad that DC is getting so much stick these days. Why is that? Yeah I know he's been qualifying low on the grid, but what do you expect from last year's Mac? He has raced better though, but then he's always been better in the races than in qualifying, so that's hardly news.

When DC is eventually replaced at McLaren the detractors will see that he was never as bad as they claimed. First of all DC will do well at anybody at whatever team he will go after Mac (assuming he doesn't retire of course). Secondly his replacement won't do much better, and unless the replacement is JPM, FA, or MS he won't do better at all but worse.

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by HSJ




------

It's really sad that DC is getting so much stick these days. Why is that? Yeah I know he's been qualifying low on the grid, but what do you expect from last year's Mac? He has raced better though, but then he's always been better in the races than in qualifying, so that's hardly news.

When DC is eventually replaced at McLaren the detractors will see that he was never as bad as they claimed. First of all DC will do well at anybody at whatever team he will go after Mac (assuming he doesn't retire of course). Secondly his replacement won't do much better, and unless the replacement is JPM, FA, or MS he won't do better at all but worse.

Yep, Coulthard is as good as Nick Heidfeld for sure. They both share the same distinction of beating their over-hyped team-mate over a season long campaign!

[Clatter]

Originally posted by HSJ




------

It's really sad that DC is getting so much stick these days. Why is that? Yeah I know he's been qualifying low on the grid, but what do you expect from last year's Mac? He has raced better though, but then he's always been better in the races than in qualifying, so that's hardly news.

When DC is eventually replaced at McLaren the detractors will see that he was never as bad as they claimed. First of all DC will do well at anybody at whatever team he will go after Mac (assuming he doesn't retire of course). Secondly his replacement won't do much better, and unless the replacement is JPM, FA, or MS he won't do better at all but worse.

I'm a DC supporter, but its not helping his case to use the "last years car" as an excuse for qualifying. KR when he doesnt cock it up is doing alright with the same car. The problem with qualifying is all down to DC, for some reason he just hasnt got to grips with it.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by HSJ
Yeah I know he's been qualifying low on the grid, but what do you expect from last year's Mac?

Two problems with that statement:

1) Everyone at McLaren, including your demigod Dennis, has already claimed that the current MP4-17D is enough of an evolution to be considered a "new" car -- so the "last year's Mac" schtick doesn't fly;

2) Kimi's been able to do much more with the car during qualifying (when he keeps it on the track that is), and generally more during the races.

[scdecade]

Originally posted by GadgetMan
Whenever I compare DC with JVi, I always come back to the same conclusion:

At least, JVi made it count when he had the car to win. DC got more kicks at the can than any driver in F1 history but could never make it count, even once.

There you go.

GadgetMan

1) I don't think so
2) I don't think so

GadgetMan seems to have it nailed here. DC has had more chances to mount a title challenge in WDC and/or WCC winning cars than any other driver I can recall in history and he's never capitalized on the opportunity. Even when his teammate has had atrocious luck, i.e. Mika in '01, DC hasn't really done anything. yeah, yeah, he's lucked into 13 wins (in dominant cars or through attrition) and some of them were even mildly impressive but overall DC is a nearly man. I don't see how anyone can claim he's a tier 1 driver. None of this deters DC from expressing optimism that next year will be his...

this season is DC's worst in F1. his qualifying performances to my mind fully justify him being let go from mclaren before the end of the season. put wurz in there or slip $1.50 to eddie jordan and give GF a try. either of those driver are probably capable of qualifying the car in the top 8. seeing DC mixing it up with the toyotas and the BARs makes for poor viewing.

[Ricardo F1]

Rubbish. DC's worst year in F1 was 1999, he drove poorly as well as having an appallingly unreliable car. DC's qualifying has range from good to bad this season, his driving within races has been good to excellent.

[scdecade]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Rubbish. DC's worst year in F1 was 1999, he drove poorly as well as having an appallingly unreliable car. DC's qualifying has range from good to bad this season, his driving within races has been good to excellent.

i was giving dc the benefit of the doubt on '99 because of the unreliability but if others disagree i won't argue. would you agree that dc has demonstrated conclusively this year that he is undeserving of his seat at mclaren?

[SB]

At the end of 1998 Mika scored more than DC for more than 8 points, so it couldnt help DC even if the results of Australian GP was overturned (from 4 points behind Mika changed to 4 points ahead). It was DC couldnt beat his teammates most of the 1998 season when they had the best car on the grid.

I think DC couldnt win WDC in 1996 no matter he was in McLaren or Williams. He was not experienced enough to win at that time -- still making silly mistakes like crashed with his teammate in Portugal GP.

[Sebastian Deveraux]

If only RD would show some initiative, unlike with his 'new car', and give DC the boot and put someone else in there. Another year of 'what if?'