74 replies to this topic

[Cbb]

Some time back, when RS led JPM by slim margin, FW stated that:

'If we are getting close to the championship, we'll have to ask Juan Pablo [Montoya] to help. But I really don't think it'll be an issue this year

http://www.f1central...wsid=1058690828

Now that JPM leads RS by a massive ammount BMW-Team states that:

We don't care which way they come around first and second, as long as we get those points for the Constructors. They can sort the Drivers' Championship out themselves."

http://www.planetf1....ory_12650.shtml

Seems that some bias from BMW-Williams does exists in favor of RS. This would explain why he was kept on board and so much. This would also explain JPMs temper and complaints.

[metz]

flame bait

Ralf has already said he would help JP.

Whats your point ?

[jaisli]

Ralf's favorite color is blue. Look at the favoritism. How can Williams get away with it.

[neil.dorrel]

This leads me to believe that FW is certain that JPM is leaving soon, and that a long-term future with RS is probable.

[StickShift]

Originally posted by Cbb


Now that JPM leads RS by a massive ammount BMW-Team states that:

We don't care which way they come around first and second, as long as we get those points for the Constructors. They can sort the Drivers' Championship out themselves."

I would've sworn I saw a headline on autosport last week that Mario Theissen was calling for Ralf to help Montoya in the title race.

[troyf1]

Originally posted by StickShift


I would've sworn I saw a headline on autosport last week that Mario Theissen was calling for Ralf to help Montoya in the title race.

You did:

http://www.autosport...sp?id=24131&s=5

[Bumper]

Frank Williams first and foremost cares for the Constructor's championship. I believe in the first sentence quoted above, with "championship" Frank means the constructors championship, not the drivers championship.

I don't think Frank is biased, if at all he is in favour of Montoya, he has been quoted several times as saying he admires Monty's driving style. He would only put in team orders if the constructors championship was in danger.

[taran]

Originally posted by Bumper
Frank Williams first and foremost cares for the Constructor's championship. I believe in the first sentence quoted above, with "championship" Frank means the constructors championship, not the drivers championship.

I don't think Frank is biased, if at all he is in favour of Montoya, he has been quoted several times as saying he admires Monty's driving style. He would only put in team orders if the constructors championship was in danger.

Just exactly how can TEAM ORDERS help the team in the constructor's cup?

[wawawa]

Originally posted by taran
Just exactly how can TEAM ORDERS help the team in the constructor's cup?

By letting the quicker driver through (or not making it too hard for him to pass), thereby allowing both to race at their optimum pace and also giving the faster driver a crack at the guy ahead. The DC-Kimi incident at Silverstone was an example of this.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by taran
Just exactly how can TEAM ORDERS help the team in the constructor's cup?

Watch lap 2 of the 2002 USGP for your answer.

[POLAR]

Ralf Schumacher is a bland, mediocre, lacustre driver.

[neil.dorrel]

Originally posted by POLAR
Ralf Schumacher is a bland, mediocre, lacustre driver.

Reading your profile, I'm not at all surprised by this insightful, hard-hitting, and objective post. Good job!!!!!!!

[baddog]

Originally posted by POLAR
Ralf Schumacher is a bland, mediocre, lacustre driver.

ralf schumacher is a very very very fast racing driver. I know thats not pleasing...

Shaun

[dan2k]

This tread is so ****ing dumb.
Mario Theissen has already gone out many times to praise Juan, and urge that Williams support him only from now on.
Please, close this **** down.

[Sebastian Deveraux]

quote from baddog

ralf schumacher is a very very very fast racing driver. I know thats not pleasing...

Shaun

Excuse me bro, but what on earth do you base this on in comparison to other drivers with lesser equipment? Even before I joined, I could see that you loved to shoot your mouth off about Ralf Shumacher. I don't regard myself a JPM or a RS fan at all, but I must say RS has had some crap races this year and a couple of good ones. How do you think he would go if he had started his career in the 2003 Jordan, rather than the one he started in, or if he wasn't given the Williams drive because of his surname, would you still call him 'very very fast'?

Seb.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Sebastian Deveraux


Excuse me bro, but what on earth do you base this on in comparison to other drivers with lesser equipment? Even before I joined, I could see that you loved to shoot your mouth off about Ralf Shumacher. I don't regard myself a JPM or a RS fan at all, but I must say RS has had some crap races this year and a couple of good ones. How do you think he would go if he had started his career in the 2003 Jordan, rather than the one he started in, or if he wasn't given the Williams drive because of his surname, would you still call him 'very very fast'?

Seb.

lol. so me saying ralf is very very fast is 'shooting my mouth off'?.. Its perfectly obvious to anyone who either watches F1 or listens to those who are involved with him (Frank Williams, Patrick Head for starters) that ralf is a very very fast racing driver. Anyone saying he is not is frankly being quite stupid. Its based on the fact that he drives very very fast. Watch a season review tape of 1998-9 and 2000 if you want to know how fast he is in less effective equipment.

Juan Pablo Montoya is also a very very fast racing driver. He may well be better than ralf, but it is perfectly clear that on outright speed there isnt much in it either way. So you think Juan is not very very fast either?

I still cant believe some dumbass thinks that saying a top f1 driver is very very fast is somehow to be criticised.

Lol

Shaun

P.S. LOL

[Cbb]

Ralf would have gone nowhere if he hadn´t joined Williams. He is only as fast as the car he is given, he can´t produce more when the situation is touhg. Ralf isnt a good driver, specially when passing time comes along or when consistency is called upon when some has been at F1 for so long.

But going back to the main topic, todays link:

pieces keep on hinting he is not feeling good a Williams

[madmac]

How many times have we seen this, this year ? (OK only a couple) but we see DC must support Kimi, then JPM must support RS, then RS must support JPM. How many threads must we have screaming about how the teamate to the 2nd guy in the WDC must support their teamate?

Its am exciting champiomship year just enjoy it

[dan2k]

Originally posted by baddog


lol. so me saying ralf is very very fast is 'shooting my mouth off'?.. Its perfectly obvious to anyone who either watches F1 or listens to those who are involved with him (Frank Williams, Patrick Head for starters) that ralf is a very very fast racing driver. Anyone saying he is not is frankly being quite stupid. Its based on the fact that he drives very very fast. Watch a season review tape of 1998-9 and 2000 if you want to know how fast he is in less effective equipment.

Juan Pablo Montoya is also a very very fast racing driver. He may well be better than ralf, but it is perfectly clear that on outright speed there isnt much in it either way. So you think Juan is not very very fast either?

I still cant believe some dumbass thinks that saying a top f1 driver is very very fast is somehow to be criticised.

Lol

Shaun

P.S. LOL

When both cars handle well, there shouldnt be a big difference at all between team mates, no matter how good you are.
Just look at MS and RB.

Ralf's weakness is his racing. But how many drivers in F1 are good racers? I can only think of 3 or 4. So we shouldnt really bash him for this.

What I really question, is his talent.
When natural talent is called for, he often fails to respond.
Saidly talent is not something you can learn.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Cbb
pieces keep on hinting he is not feeling good a Williams

The article is based mostly on quotes from journalists.

Ralf is a tremendously fast driver, he has proven that many times. Unfortunately he is too inconsistent.

[baddog]

Originally posted by dan2k


When both cars handle well, there shouldnt be a big difference at all between team mates, no matter how good you are.
Just look at MS and RB.

Ralf's weakness is his racing. But how many drivers in F1 are good racers? I can only think of 3 or 4. So we shouldnt really bash him for this.

What I really question, is his talent.
When natural talent is called for, he often fails to respond.
Saidly talent is not something you can learn.

well, this is where we have to disagree.. talent he has in spadeloads, ralfs problems are ALL in the mind, he is too easily upset and depressed. He lacks confidence at times, and if he thinks the car isnt competitive he tends to 'give up'. Its not good at all.

Shaun

[dan2k]

Originally posted by baddog


well, this is where we have to disagree.. talent he has in spadeloads, ralfs problems are ALL in the mind, he is too easily upset and depressed. He lacks confidence at times, and if he thinks the car isnt competitive he tends to 'give up'. Its not good at all.

Shaun

Yeh, its not an aditude of a champion thats for sure.
The good thing is he can change this, because its a mental thing.

Shaun, mate. When I say Ralf lacks natural talent, I mean compared to drivers like MS, Montoya, Raikkonen... And not by much okay?
Bloody hell, Ralf has talent. Hes got at least half the genes Michael has.;)
Ralf is good on his days, but those days dont come often enough.

[Cbb]

Originally posted by karlth


The article is based mostly on quotes from journalists.

if you read into grandprix´s comments regarding this info

It clearly states three facts;:

1) Monty is discontent with the salary difference
2) It comes out to state something I suspected and stated, BMW has a definate bias towards RS.
3) JPM and Halfy dont get along.

If BMW does have that bias, they made a poor choice, any other german driver on the grid would have been a lot better than Ralf.

End result, FW looses, JPM looses and BMW looses, they cant fix glitches in Ralf ´s brain.

[Sebastian Deveraux]

quote from baddog

lol. so me saying ralf is very very fast is 'shooting my mouth off'?.. Its perfectly obvious to anyone who either watches F1 or listens to those who are involved with him (Frank Williams, Patrick Head for starters) that ralf is a very very fast racing driver. Anyone saying he is not is frankly being quite stupid. Its based on the fact that he drives very very fast. Watch a season review tape of 1998-9 and 2000 if you want to know how fast he is in less effective equipment.

Juan Pablo Montoya is also a very very fast racing driver. He may well be better than ralf, but it is perfectly clear that on outright speed there isnt much in it either way. So you think Juan is not very very fast either?

I still cant believe some dumbass thinks that saying a top f1 driver is very very fast is somehow to be criticised.

Lol

Shaun

P.S. LOL

In ten years time, this guy will still be here singing the praises of Ralf Shumacher.

Before your fingers started typing, did you actually read my post? I am sure you have plenty of copies of the 1998-1999 season on tape, but how was that car anything like the 2003 car in relation to the rest of the field in competitiveness?

Secondly, are you aware of the yawning gap between the teams? I ask again, would you still say RS was 'very very fast' given the scenarios I pointed out in my original post, or even JPM for that matter, he has only driven a Williams.

[karlth]

Originally posted by baddog


well, this is where we have to disagree.. talent he has in spadeloads, ralfs problems are ALL in the mind, he is too easily upset and depressed. He lacks confidence at times, and if he thinks the car isnt competitive he tends to 'give up'. Its not good at all.

Shaun

I think that is a pretty good description of Ralf Schumacher.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Cbb
It clearly states three facts;:

1) Monty is discontent with the salary difference
2) It comes out to state something I suspected and stated, BMW has a definate bias towards RS.
3) JPM and Halfy dont get along.

#2 is certainly not a fact.

You can read the article yourself online. It just quotes a few journalists, mentions an old BBC's news item about Montoya going to McLaren and mentions some contacts somewhere.

Nothing we haven't read before.

[Superman]

Sure JPM is fast driver every body know that. Many poster here reckon for two year now that Montoya will crush RS career. it still hasn't happend. in three seasons there are time when one were faster than other but that about it (JPM might be slightly faster). So if JPM got load of talent then i don't think Ralf is that far behind.

Originally posted by Cbb
1) Monty is discontent with the salary difference

i read somewhere in F1racing magazine JPM got about 6 million and he get point bonuses.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Sebastian Deveraux




In ten years time, this guy will still be here singing the praises of Ralf Shumacher.

Before your fingers started typing, did you actually read my post? I am sure you have plenty of copies of the 1998-1999 season on tape, but how was that car anything like the 2003 car in relation to the rest of the field in competitiveness?

Secondly, are you aware of the yawning gap between the teams? I ask again, would you still say RS was 'very very fast' given the scenarios I pointed out in my original post, or even JPM for that matter, he has only driven a Williams.

yes I read your unremittingly wrong post. Ralf is very very fast. Nothing in your post represents a realistic argument against that. Saying 'some cars are slower than others' is really quite irrelevant. It is perfectly possible to make a rating of a driver in an uncompetitive car, albeit not a perfect rating (like theres such a thing) Webber was clearly quick in the minardi, Fisi is clearly quick even in the 2003 jordan. Alonso was quick in the minardi. you arent making a point except to say 'yah boo ralf sucks' which isnt going to convince anyone..

Shaun

[lgbalch]

Originally posted by Cbb:
It clearly states three facts;:

1) Monty is discontent with the salary difference
2) It comes out to state something I suspected and stated, BMW has a definate bias towards RS.
3) JPM and Halfy dont get along.

How do YOU know they are facts? No. 1 can't be, since JPM and RS now have virtually identical contracts. This has been stated by FW, PH, and JPM's agent, as reported in other threads by Bira, citing time and place. But it seems that once something becomes accepted "wisdom", there's no correcting it.

[DaveDash]

After reading the hogwash on this page, I could not help but register and reply.

Ralf is very very very fast SOMETIMES. Most of the time he is more like a spoilt child, forever striving to be like his brother but sadly blind to the fact that it's just not going to happen, quite a lot like some people here.

Where was Ralf at the start of the season? Driving incredably poor laps in a so-so car, and if it wasn't for JPMs bad luck and retirements RS would never have had a shot at the championship at all.

Ralf is quite a lot like DC, he has mental issues and only performs well if the car is balanced well. He is not WDC material like MS, JPM, and KR, and cannot drive around a bad car, and he tends to cruise around the track in his own world, a bit like Trulli, DC, etc. Also not much can be said about his overtaking skills either.

This is why no one except RS supporters have ever hailed him as WDC material, because he is NOT. He is simply a one lap wonder.

Oh, and as for the self-assured poster above me, you might be surprised to find out RS's manager is quite clever, and he does indeed get paid more than JPM (a significant amount too, I might add). I believe the main reason for this, and even why RS isin Williams is so they can/could get BMW engines. Sponsors like a team with one of their own - don't believe me? Look at what EJ is trying to conjure up at the moment. FW might be passionate about racing at heart, but it DOES require a good engine and money to win - he is not oblivious to that.

The End.

Disclaimer: I am not a JPM supporter, and am neutral towards RS and Williams. My opinion is not biased, but simply the truth from my own observations. Pre 2003 be damned, times change, drivers get slow.

[baddog]

Originally posted by DaveDash
After reading the hogwash on this page, I could not help but register and reply.

if driver bashing is the only thing that motivates you enough to post, then next time dont bother.

Ralf is very very very fast SOMETIMES. Most of the time he is more like a spoilt child, forever striving to be like his brother but sadly blind to the fact that it's just not going to happen, quite a lot like some people here.

thats a lot of your opinion, but bugger all facts

Where was Ralf at the start of the season? Driving incredably poor laps in a so-so car, and if it wasn't for JPMs bad luck and retirements RS would never have had a shot at the championship at all.

and if ralf hadnt retired in germany and suffered a problem in britain, JPM wouldnt be in the championship now. so what?

Ralf is quite a lot like DC, he has mental issues and only performs well if the car is balanced well. He is not WDC material like MS, JPM, and KR, and cannot drive around a bad car, and he tends to cruise around the track in his own world, a bit like Trulli, DC, etc. Also not much can be said about his overtaking skills either.

only MS has proved to be WDC material yet. the rest is just your opinions again. and really a great deal has been said about his overtaking skills.

This is why no one except RS supporters have ever hailed him as WDC material, because he is NOT. He is simply a one lap wonder.

ralf is as good as damon ever was. Why could he not win a WDC if the circumstances come together for him?

Oh, and as for the self-assured poster above me, you might be surprised to find out RS's manager is quite clever, and he does indeed get paid more than JPM (a significant amount too, I might add).

you have inside information that is better than a direct quote from JPM himself? share or shut up.

I believe the main reason for this, and even why RS isin Williams is so they can/could get BMW engines.

more opinion with little or no supporting information

Sponsors like a team with one of their own - don't believe me? Look at what EJ is trying to conjure up at the moment. FW might be passionate about racing at heart, but it DOES require a good engine and money to win - he is not oblivious to that.

so according to you frank thinks ralf is a waste of time, and only hired him because BMW said so? frankly thats a pack of made up rubbish. again.

The End.

next time try adding a beginning and middle before ending.

Disclaimer: I am not a JPM supporter, and am neutral towards RS and Williams. My opinion is not biased, but simply the truth from my own observations. Pre 2003 be damned, times change, drivers get slow.

the word truth is not to be found in any dictionary with a definition that would include anything you just said. its opinion. a vaild if sadly uninformed opinion. the only time you strayed onto facts, you got them wrong.

Sorry if this is the first reply you have had on the forum, but well, what goes around as they say...

Shaun

[Sebastian Deveraux]

DaveDash, don't worry about baddog, he is pretty much like that with everyone who thinks RS is below par.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Sebastian Deveraux
DaveDash, don't worry about baddog, he is pretty much like that with everyone who thinks RS is below par.

Thanks for your comments. you have learned a lot about me in less than 13 days apparently..

Shaun

[baddog]

See here is the thing sebastian.. I have ZERO problem with someone thinking, and saying, that ralf isnt that good. Its a valid opinion. Where I take exception is to the cocksure arrogant posters who presume to tell me that only an idiot would fail to accept their self evident TRUTH that ralf is useless. They will all get a reply that is about as polite as their rantings.

The REALLY bizarre thing is, that I dont even think ralf is that great, he is nowhere near his brother, or Mika for example. Too many flaws.

Shaun

[DaveDash]

I can just feel your wrath from here. Christ, how can anyone take you objectively when you are obviously so passionate about this one sub standard driver?

Listen, if he was a good driver, why is he often criticised? Good drivers do not get criticised. MS never gets criticised for being too slow - neither does Kimi, or JPM, but Ralf for god sake has been bagged by his own team boss AND technical director!

If you can't even open your blinded little eyes and listen to them, your opinion is nothing but drivel I'm afraid.

As for your post:


if driver bashing is the only thing that motivates you enough to post, then next time dont bother.

What was this meant to be? Some immature stab? Please, stay on topic here.

thats a lot of your opinion, but bugger all facts

Facts:

8 DRIVERS FROM TOP TEAMS - NO# OF FASTEST LAPS

MS: 3
KR: 3
RB: 3
JPM: 2
FA: 1
RS: 0
DC: 0
JT: 0

I think the fact he has 0 fastest laps when his teammate has had 2, similar to DC and JT , speaks volumes about him. I stand by my statement that he is like DC and JT.


and if ralf hadnt retired in germany and suffered a problem in britain, JPM wouldnt be in the championship now. so what?
Ralf's retirement in Germany was his fault, so says the FIA, and so stupid they have penalised him 10 grid positions. He deserves to be out of the championship race.

only MS has proved to be WDC material yet. the rest is just your opinions again. and really a great deal has been said about his overtaking skills.
A lot of well informed people chat in articles and on TV about JPM, KR, and MS. People only talk about RS when he is giving us yet another boring race to watch. How many times do you hear people talk about that amazing overtaking manuvoer from RS? Never - There is a reason for this and your zealous blindless is stopping you from seeing it.

ralf is as good as damon ever was. Why could he not win a WDC if the circumstances come together for him?
Who ever said Damon was any good? I certainly didn't. Alex Yoong could have won the championship.
but why does this matter?, THIS IS THE POINT YOU ARE SO IGNORANTLY MISSING, we are in 2003 now. Drivers loose talent over time, they reach their peak and then they loose it.

you have inside information that is better than a direct quote from JPM himself? share or shut up.
Firstly, this whole board is mostly opinion, and I am sharing mine. If we had no opinions or did not share them, this board would not exist. I think you need to change your attitude, I don't care how long you've been posting here or who you think you are, but telling another legit member to shut up is very immature and something along the lines of a school brute in the playground.

Now, as for your post, I do not work at Williams so obviously I do not know. But according to ITV, who do know a lot more than I do, they say at the moment Ralf is in year two of a three-year contract which paid $12m in the first year, $15m this year and $18m next year. Also according to ITV, Montoya was rumoured to be paid around $3-4 million.

If you have a problem with those figures, go argue them with the ITV crew, not me.


more opinion with little or no supporting information
That's exactly right, my opinion, and I have never claimed otherwise. If you have a problem with my opinion, ignore my posts - but don't fill this discussion board up with "state the obvious".

so according to you frank thinks ralf is a waste of time, and only hired him because BMW said so? frankly thats a pack of made up rubbish. again.
No, according to me I think Ralf is good sponsor money for BMW. BMW = German company, Ralf = German, fast, but INCONSISTANT driver. That is logic.
How you jumped to the conclusion that Frank think's he is a waste of time (a complete contradiction anyway, so your post is even more rubbish), I will never be able to figure out, because I certainly never mentioned that?

next time try adding a beginning and middle before ending
the word truth is not to be found in any dictionary with a definition that would include anything you just said. its opinion. a vaild if sadly uninformed opinion. the only time you strayed onto facts, you got them wrong.

Sorry if this is the first reply you have had on the forum, but well, what goes around as they say...

Shaun.

Completely pointless remark which does not help the discussion, but a mere attempt to twist it into a childish flamewar.

I might also add you provided nothing in the way of facts yourself, but merely childish slander meant to scare me away from posting anything against your divine Ralf.

Dave.

[DaveDash]

Originally posted by baddog
See here is the thing sebastian.. I have ZERO problem with someone thinking, and saying, that ralf isnt that good. Its a valid opinion. Where I take exception is to the cocksure arrogant posters who presume to tell me that only an idiot would fail to accept their self evident TRUTH that ralf is useless. They will all get a reply that is about as polite as their rantings.

The REALLY bizarre thing is, that I dont even think ralf is that great, he is nowhere near his brother, or Mika for example. Too many flaws.

Shaun

You wish this was the truth, but you just had to jump in and try and beat around the new guy, proving what an intelligent and good debater you are.

Sorry, I wasn't fooled - btw, don't expect any more replies until tomorrow, as I'm leaving work.

I look forward to you standing up against "the cocksure arrogent poster".

[Arrow]

Originally posted by DaveDash
I can just feel your wrath from here. Christ, how can anyone take you objectively when you are obviously so passionate about this one sub standard driver?

Can you explain why hes sub standard?
Let me guess.Your going to list only his worst performances over the year and ignore the rest?

Originally posted by DaveDash

Listen, if he was a good driver, why is he often criticised? ?

Simple.
Hes not liked.Hes a cold,boring arrogant prude.
That has nothing to do with his driving abilitys though.

Originally posted by DaveDash

Good drivers do not get criticised. MS never gets criticised for being too slow - neither does Kimi, or JPM, but Ralf for god sake has been bagged by his own team boss AND technical director!?

From one month ago.

Williams said: "Ralf's form is real. The guy has always been as quick as his brother

Ralf is as quick as you'll ever get in a car

Thats immense praise from a guy like frank williams.

PS.How long have you watched f1 for.

[Sebastian Deveraux]

quote from baddog

See here is the thing sebastian.. I have ZERO problem with someone thinking, and saying, that ralf isnt that good. Its a valid opinion. Where I take exception is to the cocksure arrogant posters who presume to tell me that only an idiot would fail to accept their self evident TRUTH that ralf is useless. They will all get a reply that is about as polite as their rantings.

The REALLY bizarre thing is, that I dont even think ralf is that great, he is nowhere near his brother, or Mika for example. Too many flaws.

Shaun

I am not saying Ralf is useless, I am saying he does not deserve a seat at Williams and the apparent high salary that goes with it. Your view of RS at Williams will anger a lot of posters here as it is out of step with the general consensus, not just at this site. You must read all the reports on his future at Williams, or do you think that is a conspiracy?

Not every driver has had an easy ride into F1. Most drivers would love to have this famous brother who helped him get a ride with a good team, then go to Williams and sit on a fat contract and have the odd good race now and then.

And I have read many a post here before joining this BB, dating back to early-2002, a lot of them were about RS and your name keeps popping up.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Sebastian Deveraux


I am not saying Ralf is useless, I am saying he does not deserve a seat at Williams and the apparent high salary that goes with it. Your view of RS at Williams will anger a lot of posters here as it is out of step with the general consensus, not just at this site. You must read all the reports on his future at Williams, or do you think that is a conspiracy?

Not every driver has had an easy ride into F1. Most drivers would love to have this famous brother who helped him get a ride with a good team, then go to Williams and sit on a fat contract and have the odd good race now and then.

And I have read many a post here before joining this BB, dating back to early-2002, a lot of them were about RS and your name keeps popping up.

My view will ANGER posters? the fact I think ralf is very fast but fragile is a thing to get ANGRY about? insanity that is.

The reports on his future at williams? they were a lot of speculative tosh with no foundation in fact that has ever appeared.

Easy ride into a top team? sit on a fat contract at williams for doing nothing? Again nothing but puffed up nonsense. Ralf was EASILY good enough to justify the jordan drive, and Frank Williams has never hired a driver he personally didnt think was good enough for his team, and never will.

So what? youve read a few posts about ralf here.. apparently youve seen them, maybe read them, but never ever understood them

Shaun

[HSJ]

Originally posted by baddog


well, this is where we have to disagree.. talent he has in spadeloads, ralfs problems are ALL in the mind, he is too easily upset and depressed. He lacks confidence at times, and if he thinks the car isnt competitive he tends to 'give up'. Its not good at all.

Shaun

I can agree with you on that.

[baddog]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DaveDash
I can just feel your wrath from here. Christ, how can anyone take you objectively when you are obviously so passionate about this one sub standard driver?
[/quote]
wrath? Im ejoying myself you silly person. as for passionate.. I am passionate about F1, but not about Ralf. In fact he is the subject of more or less constant jokes from me during races, as I wait for him to 'do a ralf' by making a pointless mistake.
[quote]
Listen, if he was a good driver, why is he often criticised? Good drivers do not get criticised. MS never gets criticised for being too slow - neither does Kimi, or JPM, but Ralf for god sake has been bagged by his own team boss AND technical director!
[/quote]
Good drivers do not get criticised? LOLOL then there are no good drivers. EVERYONE gets criticised, wuality is not measured as an inverse proportion to the amount of trash talked about someone by fans of rival drivers.. as for criticism from the team, what do you make of the significant criticism Juan Pablo has recieved from his team over the same period? or is that 'different'?
[quote]
If you can't even open your blinded little eyes and listen to them, your opinion is nothing but drivel I'm afraid.
[/quote]
and yet elsewhere you accuse me of childish insults?
[quote]

if driver bashing is the only thing that motivates you enough to post, then next time dont bother.

What was this meant to be? Some immature stab? Please, stay on topic here.
[/quote]
your post began by essentially saying that I had posted such a pile of crap that you felt compelled to register in order to say that ralf was ****. that is pretty accurate isnt it?
[quote]
Facts:

8 DRIVERS FROM TOP TEAMS - NO# OF FASTEST LAPS

MS: 3
KR: 3
RB: 3
JPM: 2
FA: 1
RS: 0
DC: 0
JT: 0

I think the fact he has 0 fastest laps when his teammate has had 2, similar to DC and JT , speaks volumes about him. I stand by my statement that he is like DC and JT.
[/quote]
2 fastest laps to montoya? 2? not 6 or 10 but 2? is that significant we ask ourselves? no it isnt we inevitably answer. Fastest laps are and always have been the most useless and irrelvant statistic in F1.
[quote]


Ralf's retirement in Germany was his fault, so says the FIA, and so stupid they have penalised him 10 grid positions. He deserves to be out of the championship race.
[/quote]
again so what? I posted that to counterpoint the surrealism of your 'Juan coulda woulda shoulda' post with an equally silly and pointless comment about ralf. Went over your head unfortunately.
[quote]

A lot of well informed people chat in articles and on TV about JPM, KR, and MS. People only talk about RS when he is giving us yet another boring race to watch. How many times do you hear people talk about that amazing overtaking manuvoer from RS? Never - There is a reason for this and your zealous blindless is stopping you from seeing it.
[/quote]
Again who cares about 'comment'? you rate a driver on the amount of positive comments they receive? and yet you have the same races to watch those people do, can you not form your own opinion?
[quote]
Who ever said Damon was any good? I certainly didn't. Alex Yoong could have won the championship.
but why does this matter?, THIS IS THE POINT YOU ARE SO IGNORANTLY MISSING, we are in 2003 now. Drivers loose talent over time, they reach their peak and then they loose it.
[/quote]
Firstly you said ralf wasnt 'WDC material' and now you say he could be? which is it? and you actually are proposing that ralf is now a worse driver than at some other point in his career? Balderdash, he is currently about the best he has ever been. At the beginning of the year he looked to be in decline and his fade and demise was widely prredicted by these genius 'well informed people' you respect so much but it DIDNT HAPPEN. 2 wins and several poles later a lot of people were backtracking madly.
[quote]
Firstly, this whole board is mostly opinion, and I am sharing mine. If we had no opinions or did not share them, this board would not exist.

I think you need to change your attitude, I don't care how long you've been posting here or who you think you are, but telling another legit member to shut up is very immature and something along the lines of a school brute in the playground.
[/quote]
That issue is not one of opinion.. Juan and ralf arent paid opinions they are paid in money. its a factual issue and one where there has been no factual evidence to support the idea Juan CURRENTLY gets paid less than ralf. in fact the best evidence we have says the opposite. As for attiude, your entry into this thread was pushy, offensive, rude, declarative, arrogant, and bullying. you reap what you sow here as elsewhere.
[quote]
Now, as for your post, I do not work at Williams so obviously I do not know. But according to ITV, who do know a lot more than I do, they say at the moment Ralf is in year two of a three-year contract which paid $12m in the first year, $15m this year and $18m next year. Also according to ITV, Montoya was rumoured to be paid around $3-4 million.

If you have a problem with those figures, go argue them with the ITV crew, not me.
[/quote]
The ITV crew didnt post here that this was a fact. If they do I will answer them. I suggest you search for posts from bira on this issue.
[quote]
No, according to me I think Ralf is good sponsor money for BMW. BMW = German company, Ralf = German, fast, but INCONSISTANT driver. That is logic.
How you jumped to the conclusion that Frank think's he is a waste of time (a complete contradiction anyway, so your post is even more rubbish), I will never be able to figure out, because I certainly never mentioned that?
[/quote]
Well, either ralf is there because Frank and Patrick want him, or they dont and they think he is not using one of their cars to best advantage. It can't be both can it?
[quote]

Completely pointless remark which does not help the discussion, but a mere attempt to twist it into a childish flamewar.

I might also add you provided nothing in the way of facts yourself, but merely childish slander meant to scare me away from posting anything against your divine Ralf.

Dave. [/QUOTE]

Slander? do point it out and I will erase it, I dont slander people intentionally.

As for the whole issue of the way I responded to you.. you desered it, really you did. and sily comments like 'your divine ralf' just emphasise that.

Maybe I should write a nice long post about what I REALLY think of ralf schumacher, and link it in my signature. Then those who cannot see past their own anger that someone would disagree with them wouldnt be so easily confused about it.

But the fact is Ralf receives, and has received for a long time, a vast amount of unwarranted and excessive criticism. Especially since the arrival of Juan Pablo as his teammate, and Juans subsequent failure to grind him into the dust as predicted. Around here there are few willing to put up with the flames of the outraged 'juanquisition' in order to point out that really, he isnt that bad. So yeah its a bit of a mission for me, and I really am not going to let you shout me down.

Shaun

[dan2k]

DaveDash

Nice entrance to the board, I like you already.

Shaun

Just admit it, you love Ralf.
Onestly, I'm sick of your aditude.
You stick around waiting to bash Monty at every chance you get.
You can say I dont mean to do it, but your doing it.
Oh I'm not a Ralf fan... BS!
That Sig "Ralf is a fantastic driver" has been there for months. Like that is anything special. If your not a fan of Ralf as you said many times, and some other driver, why dont you have a quote of him?
Why you keep sticking up for that loser is beyond me.

[baddog]

Originally posted by dan2k
DaveDash

Nice entrance to the board, I like you already.

Shaun

Just admit it, you love Ralf.
Onestly, I'm sick of your aditude.
You stick around waiting to bash Monty at every chance you get.
You can say I dont mean to do it, but your doing it.
Oh I'm not a Ralf fan... BS!
That Sig "Ralf is a fantastic driver" has been there for months. Like that is anything special. If your not a fan of Ralf as you said many times, and some other driver, why dont you have a quote of him?
Why you keep sticking up for that loser is beyond me.

LOL where in my posts here did I "bash" Montoya?

You actually think that saying something good about ralf is bashing montoya? what a twisted and unfortunate view of the world. Juan would Im sure be quite appalled to read the tripe you write, ostensibly in his defence. Not that anyone is attacking him anyway.

Shaun

[dan2k]

SO are you a Ralf fan or not? I wanna hear it. Clearly you are, but you keep deneying it.
I can understand but. Being a Ralf fan is shameful. I dont know about NewZealand, but here in Melbourne you would be called a poof if your a Ralf fan.

By the way, that sig you have. Do you think its really impressing stuff or something?
I have never heard any racing legends say anything good about Ralf. Hmmm... I wonder why.
Because he is just another driver, nothing extrodinary.
Talent usually shines straight away. What people saw when Ralf first entered F1 was a half Schumacher.

[baddog]

Originally posted by dan2k
SO are you a Ralf fan or not? I wanna hear it. Clearly you are, but you keep deneying it.
I can understand but. Being a Ralf fan is shameful. I dont know about NewZealand, but here in Melbourne you would be called a poof if your a Ralf fan.

no Im not. I know what a 'fan' is like, I see plenty of them around here. I dont like ralf much. he seems a fairly dull character, and has so many hangups and lets things get to him terribly. But then he can drive the wheels of an F1 car when he DOES get it right, and thats something very few can do. So Im quite impressed by his abilities, but I couldnt be a fan. He is neither the best driver in F1 in my opinion (thats Michael) , nor is he the most likeable (Thats Fisi). I suppose Id be nearest to being a fan of those two, but well, hardly anyone refuses to accept michaels talent anymore (should have been here a few years ago though) and fisi.. well his time is to come.

What I AM is someone who simply refuses to let the chorus of bullshit about ralf go without ANY counter voice here. He is a talented driver, who has risen to the undeniable challenge of Montoya better than I think ANYONE expected, including me, and yet who is subject to a combination of derision and vile personal abuse on here and in some sections of the media. Its all very pathetic and so Ill go on saying my piece.

By the way, that sig you have. Do you think its really impressing stuff or something?
I have never heard any racing legends say anything good about Ralf. Hmmm... I wonder why.
Because he is just another driver, nothing extrodinary.
Talent usually shines straight away. What people saw when Ralf first entered F1 was a half Schumacher.

I put it up expecting to replace it after a day or two (it is rather insipid and uninspiring) but really, it annoys you so much its worth keeping up. Its funny to imagine you getting mad about it

Shaun

[neil.dorrel]

Originally posted by DaveDash
I believe the main reason for this, and even why RS isin Williams is so they can/could get BMW engines. Sponsors like a team with one of their own - don't believe me? Look at what EJ is trying to conjure up at the moment. FW might be passionate about racing at heart, but it DOES require a good engine and money to win - he is not oblivious to that.

The End.

Disclaimer: I am not a JPM supporter, and am neutral towards RS and Williams. My opinion is not biased, but simply the truth from my own observations. Pre 2003 be damned, times change, drivers get slow.

Pardon me for asking, but did you just awake from a coma? Let me give you a little bit of history, since you've been away for so long.

1) FW signed Ralf two years before BMW was in the picture. There goes your German thing.

2) He faired well in '97 and '98 against Fisi in the Jordan.

3) Then he went on to score 35 points in the dreadful Williams Supertech in '99, destroying two-time CART champ Zanardi, who described the car as "undriveable."

4) In 2000, he scored twice as many points as his highly-touted teammate Button (yeah, I know, he was in his rookie season).

5) In 2001, he finished fourth in the WDC, just ahead of two-time WDC Hakkinen. In the process he scored half again as many points as his new teammate JPM, "The Next Senna."

6) In 2002, he was beaten fair and square by the ever maturing JPM. No execuses.

7) In 2003, he has faired very well against JPM.

Welcome back to the real world. I hope you're feeling better.

[Cbb]

Neil,

2003 Fared well????

Ralf had three good races cause he had the fastest car on the field and with some help due to team orders (thats according to Thiessens comments today at France), other than that he hasnt fared well at all.

Looking at this years results:

JP.MONTOYA 8 -- -- 2 5 -- 10 6 8 8 8 10 65
R.SCHUMACHER 1 5 2 5 4 3 5 8 10 10 -- -- 53

If France would have been won by JPM the situation would now be diff (that cause of team orders).

Through out the year JPM has accomplished 7 podiums on 12 races (2 DNFs), thats 70% effectiveness, 6 of them in a row. 2 wins on his own, lost another to his carelessness and another to team orders, could of been 5. Yeah right could ofs dont count.

Through out the year Halfy has accomplished 3 podiums in a row on 12 races (1 DNF) thats 27% effectiveness. 2 wins due to team orders. (should have been 1, nor should ofs either).

Point wise he has been able to accumulate points because he has a the second best package in the field and the car is reliable, yet his average is low.

So no, Stats show RS hasnt done at all well.

Now considering that Williams has excelled since Monaco, RS has accomplished 33 points out of 60 posible 55% efectivness on the best and most reliable chasis. Through the same period JPM has accomplished 83% of the available points. So no, cant see RS has don well, fair at most with the best car at hand.

[neil.dorrel]

Originally posted by Cbb
Neil,

2003 Fared well????

Ralf had three good races cause he had the fastest car on the field and with some help due to team orders (thats according to Thiessens comments today at France), other than that he hasnt fared well at all.

Looking at this years results:

JP.MONTOYA 8 -- -- 2 5 -- 10 6 8 8 8 10 65
R.SCHUMACHER 1 5 2 5 4 3 5 8 10 10 -- -- 53

If France would have been won by JPM the situation would now be diff (that cause of team orders).

Through out the year JPM has accomplished 7 podiums on 12 races (2 DNFs), thats 70% effectiveness, 6 of them in a row. 2 wins on his own, lost another to his carelessness and another to team orders, could of been 5. Yeah right could ofs dont count.

Through out the year Halfy has accomplished 3 podiums in a row on 12 races (1 DNF) thats 27% effectiveness. 2 wins due to team orders. (should have been 1, nor should ofs either).

Point wise he has been able to accumulate points because he has a the second best package in the field and the car is reliable, yet his average is low.

So no, Stats show RS hasnt done at all well.

Now considering that Williams has excelled since Monaco, RS has accomplished 33 points out of 60 posible 55% efectivness on the best and most reliable chasis. Through the same period JPM has accomplished 83% of the available points. So no, cant see RS has don well, fair at most with the best car at hand.

Whoa, back up from the past few races and see Ralf's career as a whole- that's the point.

Why does it always have to be JPM rules, Ralf sucks?

[zengiman]

Originally posted by neil.dorrel



6) In 2002, he was beaten fair and square by the ever maturing JPM. No execuses.

It was more like a tie. RS was faster in Suzuka the whole weekend and then his car crapped out. There were very few points in it in the end. More to do with luck than with a difference in quality.

[neil.dorrel]

Originally posted by zengiman


It was more like a tie. RS was faster in Suzuka the whole weekend and then his car crapped out. There were very few points in it in the end. More to do with luck than with a difference in quality.

Good point. I was trying to be charitable.