48 replies to this topic

[abraham]

can anyone enlighten me on the difference between right and left foot braking? i was reading the cover feature in this month's f1 racing - on kimi and alonso. It says both of them belong to the new generation of racers who use left foot braking, whereas, for example, an old hand like rubens is a right foot braker. Why the difference? What's going on?Does that translate into how late you turn into corners or any other interesting details? (I know that kimi is known to turn in very late, whereas a guy like rubens turns in early..probably has a lot to do with braking style??)

[logic]

Kimi: left foot on brake, right on gas
Rubens: left foo free, right on brake and gas.
Which is better?

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by logic
Kimi: left foot on brake, right on gas
Rubens: left foo free, right on brake and gas.
Which is better?

Typical... you make it sound so easy to rationalize when it, in reality, it isn't.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Exactly. Its not that simple. These F1 Racing 101 articles about driving technique and how you brake are so overly simplified they really only confuse the people interested enough to try to study it.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by KinetiK


Typical... you make it sound so easy to rationalize when it, in reality, it isn't.

Actually it is.
All things being equal,left foot breaking is superior.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Arrow



Actually it is.
All things being equal,left foot breaking is superior.

Ouch. Superior or not, it certainly sounds more painful. Left foot braking, on the other hand, probably works better ....

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by Arrow



Actually it is.
All things being equal,left foot breaking is superior.

Fair point but let's talk reality and not pure, unadulterated fantasy here.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I think it really is that simple, left foot braking is undisputably superior. Whenever it became possible in Formula 1 to brake with the left foot, drivers switched in droves. The only advantage that I see in right foot braking is that a driver who grew up on three pedal cars might have a lot of trouble adjusting, like Rubens had in 1995, and it might be easier to just finish out your probably subpar career without learning it.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by KinetiK


Fair point but let's talk reality and not pure, unadulterated fantasy here.

What part of it is fantasy?
That 99% of the grid left foot brakes?
That left foot braking gives a driver more scope in controlling the car?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well which came first, the chicken or the egg? Does Kimi Raikkonen left foot brake because its fastest, or because in 10 years of karting he *had* to left foot brake and thats what he's best at?

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Well which came first, the chicken or the egg? Does Kimi Raikkonen left foot brake because its fastest, or because in 10 years of karting he *had* to left foot brake and thats what he's best at?

What technique is best for a certain driver is not the issue here.
Rubens is slower using left foot braking,than right but the fact remains that if he was able to use it as good as right braking then he would be better off.
How much better,is the part that is open for debate though.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Well which came first, the chicken or the egg? Does Kimi Raikkonen left foot brake because its fastest, or because in 10 years of karting he *had* to left foot brake and thats what he's best at?

Why look at Kimi Raikkonen? Why not look at Montoya? In CART, he was a brave right foot braker. If kart racing has taught him the habit of left foot braking, why didn't he left foot brake in CART like at least half the other CART drivers? In F1, he switched to left foot braking without hesitation, although he did have some learning curve with it. Same with Coulthard, he fought the habit hard, but eventually found it advantageous to dump right foot braking. I really see no reason at all to right foot brake when you have two pedals, and apparently very few F1 drivers see it. It was a necessary evil when you had the clutch pedal in the footbox, but there is no excuse for it anymore.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller


Why look at Kimi Raikkonen? Why not look at Montoya? In CART, he was a brave right foot braker. If kart racing has taught him the habit of left foot braking, why didn't he left foot brake in CART like at least half the other CART drivers? In F1, he switched to left foot braking without hesitation, although he did have some learning curve with it. Same with Coulthard, he fought the habit hard, but eventually found it advantageous to dump right foot braking. I really see no reason at all to right foot brake when you have two pedals, and apparently very few F1 drivers see it. It was a necessary evil when you had the clutch pedal in the footbox, but there is no excuse for it anymore.

I used Kimi because he only had one year of cars, whereas Montoya had several seasons in heel-toe cars before he could get into one where you could really left foot brake.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller


Why look at Kimi Raikkonen? Why not look at Montoya? In CART, he was a brave right foot braker. If kart racing has taught him the habit of left foot braking, why didn't he left foot brake in CART like at least half the other CART drivers? In F1, he switched to left foot braking without hesitation, although he did have some learning curve with it. Same with Coulthard, he fought the habit hard, but eventually found it advantageous to dump right foot braking. I really see no reason at all to right foot brake when you have two pedals, and apparently very few F1 drivers see it. It was a necessary evil when you had the clutch pedal in the footbox, but there is no excuse for it anymore.

Quite right. When I started a 30+ year racing career, I braked with my right foot - we all did. Then - the Finns came to South Africa in their rally cars. And they were waay faster than our guys, partly due to their technique of left foot braking. At first our rally drivers took it up, and eventually it trickled down to the race track drivers. Even if you have a clutch, there is a big advantage to left foot braking. You gain 2/10ths of a second through not having to lift off the throttle, switch to the brake pedal, and brake. In addition, it allows you an extra measure of control in adjusting the attitude of the car in the corner.

Frankly - I'm astonished to learn that Barrichello does not use left foot braking.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Actually I want to correct my answer, its not a clutch issue its a steering issue. Some cars the layout of the steering arm is right between your feet. If you're 5'11 like me there's no way in hell you can get your left foot under the column and to the brakes.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Actually I want to correct my answer, its not a clutch issue its a steering issue. Some cars the layout of the steering arm is right between your feet. If you're 5'11 like me there's no way in hell you can get your left foot under the column and to the brakes.

Aah, that makes sense. True - impossible to use left foot braking with a pedal layout like that.

[flyingfin]

Originally posted by logic
Rubens: left foo free, right on brake and gas.

In the recent british rubens used left foot braking in the beckits complex. he was pressing the brake pedal slightly and keeping acc constant.it was during qualifying when they showed the drivers view. could make it out by listening to the engine noise

[logic]

Originally posted by KinetiK


Typical... you make it sound so easy to rationalize when it, in reality, it isn't.

You think changing right foot from gas to brake and again to gas can be better that both pedals having own feet? Just try it, if you have feet on both pedals, you can use them even simultaneosly independent of each other (as long as your brains can control two feets).

Actually left foot is controlled by right side of brain, and right foot by left side of brain. anyone remember in which areas each side of brain was good? Hmm, maybe it can be true that some drivers (Rubens) are quicker with one foot, but I am amazed that he has beaten two feet controlled Schumi

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Well which came first, the chicken or the egg? Does Kimi Raikkonen left foot brake because its fastest, or because in 10 years of karting he *had* to left foot brake and thats what he's best at?

I don't know. But if you have two pedals to use and two feets available it takes not to be an Einstein to figure out how feets should be placed to have maximum control of the car in any time

Sure it may be difficult for Rubens to learn something different than he is used to .... particularly if he is dumb as dirt like Fisichella

[maclaren]

Originally posted by logic
Actually left foot is controlled by right side of brain, and right foot by left side of brain. anyone remember in which areas each side of brain was good? Hmm, maybe it can be true that some drivers (Rubens) are quicker with one foot, but I am amazed that he has beaten two feet controlled Schumi

It doesn't necessarily make much of difference depending on drivingstyle.

If being oversimplistic car cannot accelerate and deaccelerate at the same time. And when you use tyres like friction circle tells ..... you have time to change foot from one pedal to another while maximum grip of tyres is in cornering...

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by maclaren

It doesn't necessarily make much of difference depending on drivingstyle.

If being oversimplistic car cannot accelerate and deaccelerate at the same time. And when you use tyres like friction circle tells ..... you have time to change foot from one pedal to another while maximum grip of tyres is in cornering...

Friction circle of the whole car, maybe. However, in reality, each tire has its own friction circle (is it even circle, it would make more sense for it to be an ellipse). Using brake pedal for balance brings the four friction circles more in synch.

[confucius]

Well the benefits of left foot braking can be seen in another article in that issue of F1Racing. Flip to the article where they compare Schuey's left foot braking vs. Rubens' right foot braking at Suzuka. In ONE corner (IIRC) i.e. Turn 1, Schuey gains a lot more by not having to jump from one pedal to the next.

[Madelier]

The same issue of F1 Racing mag has a story showing the telemetry differences between Michael and Rubens...the graphs clearly show the difference between lack of forward momentum loss gained by Michael using left foot, vs Rubens.

Michael is able to keep his foot on the throttle, whilst balancing the car by feathering the brakes, whereas Rubens traces show a clear loss of all throttle as he switches from throttle to brake and back, thus losing forward momentum.

Turn One Suzuka, this results in a 25km/h and 0.3 sec advantage to Michael on turn in
Montreal Hairpin 15km/h advantage to Michael on turn in
Silverstone Copse (Michael 20km/h 0.15 sec advantage) to Becketts (Michael 25km/h 0.2 sec advantage) on turn in.

It all kinda adds up on a hot lap.

[TEquiLA]

Originally posted by logic

You think changing right foot from gas to brake and again to gas can be better that both pedals having own feet? Just try it, if you have feet on both pedals, you can use them even simultaneosly independent of each other (as long as your brains can control two feets).

Actually left foot is controlled by right side of brain, and right foot by left side of brain. anyone remember in which areas each side of brain was good? Hmm, maybe it can be true that some drivers (Rubens) are quicker with one foot, but I am amazed that he has beaten two feet controlled Schumi

That's part of the reason he has done it so few times

[fast_track]

Originally posted by Madelier
Turn One Suzuka, this results in a 25km/h and 0.3 sec advantage to Michael on turn in
Montreal Hairpin 15km/h advantage to Michael on turn in
Silverstone Copse (Michael 20km/h 0.15 sec advantage) to Becketts (Michael 25km/h 0.2 sec advantage) on turn in.

It all kinda adds up on a hot lap.

Well... looking at the figures you supplied, it's no wonder that Schumi is faster. On the other hand, extrapolating the numbers would predict a really huge difference in a single lap (0.15 to 0.3 sec in a single turn can sum up to something as big as 1 second. And Rubens is not 1 sec off Michael's pace... only a few tenths on most circuits (except Austria and Silverstone where he has beaten Michael more than once). So there must be something strange here. Either Rubens is way faster at other points of the track (maybe because his braking style is better suited to that particular type of corner)... or the figures provided are not representative of the entire lap.

Anyway, I'm also pretty convinced that LF braking is better, all other things being equal. Ans I also believe that RB is developing his own LF braking technique, a little bit late. Maybe this is the real reason behind the sudden improvement in performance over the past two races.

[Double Apex]

Who else besides Rubens is right-foot braking?

If left-foot braking is that much faster, then how come Rubens and the other right-foot brakers (if there are any in F1) are still competitive?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Likewise why do they still have jobs if its so much faster to simply learn to use the other foot, and they refuse to.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Madelier
The same issue of F1 Racing mag has a story showing the telemetry differences between Michael and Rubens...the graphs clearly show the difference between lack of forward momentum loss gained by Michael using left foot, vs Rubens.

Michael is able to keep his foot on the throttle, whilst balancing the car by feathering the brakes, whereas Rubens traces show a clear loss of all throttle as he switches from throttle to brake and back, thus losing forward momentum.

Turn One Suzuka, this results in a 25km/h and 0.3 sec advantage to Michael on turn in
Montreal Hairpin 15km/h advantage to Michael on turn in
Silverstone Copse (Michael 20km/h 0.15 sec advantage) to Becketts (Michael 25km/h 0.2 sec advantage) on turn in.

It all kinda adds up on a hot lap.

I'm not sure this "proves" anything. Maybe MS is just better on turn in and it is not due to the right foot braking. It could be he is just better at feeling the limit of the car in those corners.

It is like hearing a rooster crow every morning as the sun comes up and assuming that is the reason the sun comes up. Maybe MS's better feel for turn in ALLOWS him to carry more throttle or is more suited to balance on the brakes? Hard to say. Without all the telemetry, the proper expereince with that car/tires etc at that track with those drivers and enough understanding of how to really read the damn telemetry in the first place, (which is not carried in the article) I doubt really you declaritively say much. You might even need each driver to use each other's set up etc and the other technique and see what happens. Even then you may not have an answer because each driver would be trying to replicate what is natural for the other which may not work for them.

[UNKLE77]

i thought left foot braking allowed quicker brake and throttle modulation. IE response times etc so hence it is an advantage over right foot only. lol

[KinetiK]

Driver confidence counts for than the fact he may save half a tenth per lap. Your choice of example (Barrichello) lead me down the contrarian path as Rubens has admitted in more than one interview that he is actually slower with the left foot braking. Arrow, if we took two people who had never before driven and asked one to left foot brake and looked at their lap times after 'enough' experience, then I think you would be right about the overall quickness. However, talking about the subjects at hand here, F1 drivers, there is no such thing as "all things being equal".

[Arrow]

Originally posted by jimm


I'm not sure this "proves" anything. Maybe MS is just better on turn in and it is not due to the right foot braking.

Drivers like michael are untouchable on turn in regardless of left foot braking.
Since michael is a front end driver he maximizes entry speed but loses out mid corner where as a classic style driver like rubens maximizes mid corner and exit.

Saying all that,the difference should not be that big.The reason for it thought is simply michael being michael.
Last year ross brawn stated that michael confounds the classic theory of "slow in fast out" and with him its rather "fast in,fast out".
He described michels biggest advantage comes from high speed corner entry which that telemetry seems to back up.

Spewing i missed that arcticle though.I used to buy F1 racing religously before 2002 ripped out most of my f1 enthusiasm.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Arrow


Drivers like michael are untouchable on turn in regardless of left foot braking.
Since michael is a front end driver he maximizes entry speed but loses out mid corner where as a classic style driver like rubens maximizes mid corner and exit.

Saying all that,the difference should not be that big.The reason for it thought is simply michael being michael.
Last year ross brawn stated that michael confounds the classic theory of "slow in fast out" and with him its rather "fast in,fast out".
He described michels biggest advantage comes from high speed corner entry which that telemetry seems to back up.

Spewing i missed that arcticle though.I used to buy F1 racing religously before 2002 ripped out most of my f1 enthusiasm.

Step forward Peter Windsor

[KinetiK]

I looked through a couple of my magazines and found one blurb from Rubens about his left foot braking experiences. There's at least one more, but this is all for now.

F1 Racing, July 2002, Matt Bishop interviews Rubens Barrichello

MB: Have you ever tried left-foot braking?

RB: In '93 and '94, my first years in F1, I braked with my right foot. Most drivers did, because you needed your left foot for the clutch. Then, in '95, when Jordan gave me and Eddie Irvine a two-pedal car, we both quickly got used to left-foot braking in pre-season testing. But in Brazil, the first race of the season, I qualified 16th [Irvine was eighth] and I was 15km/h [9mph] slower than Eddie on the straight on my qualifying lap. I thought the problem was with the airbox not getting enough 'ram' into the engine - but it turned out that I'd been gently resting my left foot on the brake pedal without realising it.

MB: Why didn't the Jordan team spot that on the telemetry?

RB: I guess at that time the telemetry wasn't too good. But, even so, for God's sake, for six grands prix I was braking on the straight. Six races! In qualifying! It was unbelievable! I was so frustrated. And when we found out about it, I went back to right-foot braking - and it brought other benefits. My brakes began to run cooler again, and I used an average of eight per cent less fuel per race. But left-foot braking was never a problem for me. I did it, of course, in karting - and I do in road cars even now.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Heh I remember reading that and thinking "who is this idiot?"

I left foot brake my road car (though I dont use brake and gas at the same time) and my foot is off the brake pedal when im not braking.

[baddog]

its hard to believe a professional racing driver could be so out of tune with his car to not know he was braking...

"My brakes began to run cooler again" lol I ****ing bet they did

Shaun

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Hmm, I assumed with all the forces in a race car, you would put your left foot on a dead pedal or some other place to keep it in place, not resting it on a control.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by baddog
its hard to believe a professional racing driver could be so out of tune with his car to not know he was braking...

"My brakes began to run cooler again" lol I ****ing bet they did

Shaun

He he. It did happen to me in GPL once, my pedals were stuck in 10% braking, it drove me nuts trying to figure how my teammate was 7 mph faster at the end of the straight in practice. It really is unpleasant and highly frustrating. However, I would've thought that in real life, there would at least be some sign that you're binding the freaken brakes.

[Superman]

Are you sure Ruban didn't just make up another excuses.

[DaveDash]

I recall reading somewhere that McLaren built Coulthard a three pedal car (two brakes next to each other) when he was learning to left foot brake, because in moments where his reactions would take over (i,e, he was about to hit someone or something) he would automatically brake with his right foot.

I'm not sure if he has ever broken that habbit.

Anyway, in the Aussie supercar V8s they have pedal shots of some of the drivers, and some of them brake with their left foot, and use their right foot for clutch AND throttle! Kind of like a heel toe motion, that way they can brake/throttle and clutch all at once.
Amazing stuff to watch.

[MrSlow]

The F1 FAQ, AtlasF1 2000:

It's not exactly known which drivers brake with what foot, but from what I've heard at least Rubens Barrichello, both McLaren drivers and Jos Verstappen use their right foot for braking as well as accelerating.

Alsesi also braked with his right foot.

Jos later converted:

(December 14, 2000) Today was Jos' second and last day testing at Valencia in Spain. Jos tested in 20°C and was very satisfied with the test and his left foot braking. " We did several runs today, long ones as well as short ones. I have to say that I'm happy with my left foot braking. I have braked with my right foot for 7 years, but I think that left foot braking is a major improvement for me. I definitely think I can gain time during qualifying."

http://www.verstappe...01214_1629.html


John Stevens view on left foot braking:
http://www.carkeys.c...mn/C2000020.htm

All the same, there have been many occasions when I have had to ask drivers why they are braking with their left foot in the middle of a corner, and the usual answer is that they are trying to stabilise the car - to which I usually have to say, "well, I'm sorry, but you're not going quickly enough for that to be a problem" (not least because the car is being driven with the brakes on).

It is also said that left-foot braking allows a quicker transition from the brake to the throttle, as you don't have to move your right foot from one to the other. Without going too deeply into driving technique here, I would just say that it is all too easy for this transition to be too quick, and for the car's speed through a corner to be compromised as a result.

John propably have a point, it might be easy to use the brake too much and too often when using the left foot.

I am almost sure I read somewhere that Rubens is now braking with his left foot, but I can not find anything to support that. Maybe it was DC?

About the pros & cons, one thing I did not see mentioned here is that when using left foot braking it is possible to have the brake balance further to the rear since you can use the throttle to make sure the rears does not lock. Brake balance further to the rear will allow you to brake deeper into a corner, not neccesarily later, but smoother.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by MrSlow
I am almost sure I read somewhere that Rubens is now braking with his left foot, but I can not find anything to support that. Maybe it was DC?

That's the exact quote I'm looking for.

[dan2k]

A driver is not very talented if he cant adapt quickly.
Is it an acident that both RB and DC right foot brake, while their team mate left foot dominates them?
Its clearly an advantage to left foot brake, and probaly takes more skills to work both pedals.
How can Rubens brake on the straights and not know it? Its a joke at this level of competition.
Rubens either lacks talent, or doesnt believe in himself.
He has seen in detail the way MS gets those super quick lap times, yet he doesnt copy.
Replace RB with Massa!

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by dan2k
A driver is not very talented if he cant adapt quickly.
Is it an acident that both RB and DC right foot brake, while their team mate left foot dominates them?
Its clearly an advantage to left foot brake, and probaly takes more skills to work both pedals.
How can Rubens brake on the straights and not know it? Its a joke at this level of competition.
Rubens either lacks talent, or doesnt believe in himself.
He has seen in detail the way MS gets those super quick lap times, yet he doesnt copy.

You sure know a lot about racing, dan2k

Replace RB with Massa!

Massa? He does not brake with any foot

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller
Friction circle of the whole car, maybe. However, in reality, each tire has its own friction circle (is it even circle, it would make more sense for it to be an ellipse). Using brake pedal for balance brings the four friction circles more in synch.

Yes. But who is about to say you cannot get full use of friction circlec (in most occasions) with right foot brake? Rubens is a driver recognized from balancing car with steering wheel prior mid corner

[Vilenova]

For someone who is "slow to adapting" and behind in the braking dept" Rube didn't do so badly at Silverstone.;)

[daSilvium]

Originally posted by maclaren

But who is about to say you cannot get full use of friction circlec (in most occasions) with right foot brake?

I am.

By definition, (assuming the driver is not heel-and-toeing on the right pedal) it takes a small but finite amount of time to transfer right foot from throttle to brake pedal and begin braking.

During this time, the car is effectively "coasting", i.e. not accelerating and not braking and therefore using up almost none of the friction circle. (car will be "gently" (!) decelerating due to engine-braking and aerodynamic drag).

It's obvious that by left-foot braking you can make this time gap "zero", and therefore stay on the throttle longer and brake later. Yes, it'll be a small difference but it will be there.


All of the above refers to essentially straight-line braking, and there is a whole nother aspect to "Left foot braking" in that the drivers use it during a corner by balancing the engine against the brakes. Schumacher is a classic exponent of this.
Yes a car cannot accelerate/decelerate at the same time, but it's used for CONTROL during cornering to stay right on the edge. Basically you can modulate vehicle's speed and attitude more effectively from the brake / throttle together than from throttle alone.

Left-foot braking is almost essential in rallying, again this is a control technique used during cornering.

It's important not to confuse the two meanings to "Left foot braking" :
MEANING 1: (obvious) that you use the left foot for braking a car (when you have the choice of foot)
MEANING 2: The technique of using brake and throttle at the same time to maximise speed/attitude thru a corner.

For example in a kart, ALL drivers HAVE to "left foot brake" (MEANING 1)
BUT only SOME drivers in a kart "Left foot brake" (MEANING 2).

I left foot brake on almost every corner in a kart. it's quicker. MS does too.

regds.

[Alonsoid]

If i remember right, Panis shifted from right to left this year at Toyota.

[mdecarle]

Originally posted by abraham
can anyone enlighten me on the difference between right and left foot braking? i was reading the cover feature in this month's f1 racing - on kimi and alonso. It says both of them belong to the new generation of racers who use left foot braking, whereas, for example, an old hand like rubens is a right foot braker. Why the difference? What's going on?Does that translate into how late you turn into corners or any other interesting details? (I know that kimi is known to turn in very late, whereas a guy like rubens turns in early..probably has a lot to do with braking style??)

I saw left-foot braking the first time in the Andros Trophy (Ice racing championship in France), and it amazed me (it was 1994 or so) that they did this. I was amazed someone could drive a car on snow/ice as fast as they did, and still control the car. But in corners they had both throttle and brake down, thus generating a unique sideways motion. Trying it myself, I found out it is not so easy to control. In karts I have no problem with it, but in the car, I tend to "overbrake".

Anyway, I assume having one pedal per foot is more logical in a car than 2 pedals for one foot and none for the other.

Mario.

[andviv]

Maybe it is a stupid question, but is there any difference in the pedal's positioning in the car? i.e. do they have to move the pedals to a different position (maybe just a couple of inches or cm) inside the car to allow the driver to use one style or the other?