66 replies to this topic

[Robbie]

Villeneneuve: "Ban mirrors!" Autosport.com

It was once said that JVi is one of the sharpest people on the grid...

There's a problem, Jacques -- what about drivers who are being lapped? Wouldn't they like to know where to move? Being yourself so helpful when being lapped I am surprised you forgot about this.;)

[Ghostrider]

Blue flags for drivers being lapped, also radio communication from pits.

I think JV is right.

[Double Apex]

I don't know if it's him or the reporter comparing F1 with motorcycle racing, but to me it seems a stupid comparison as a motorcycle racer can easily turn his head while an F1 driver can't (well, he can but he won't see much will he?)

I think learning drivers to behave would be a better solution. There are a lot of drivers that in my opinion are pretty fair and safe on the track and I think Jacques is one of them.

[The Passenger]

Jacues is channelling Schumi.;)

[The Passenger]

Frans, do I have you to blame for the no editing option???

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Blue flags for drivers being lapped, also radio communication from pits.

I think JV is right.

That will only make drivers try to block without exactly knowing where the other driver is, potentially much more dangerous. IMO it's a mentality problem. Driver's mentalities won't change by taking away the mirrors.

[A3]

Originally posted by The Passenger
Frans, do I have you to blame for the no editing option???

look in the bottom right of your posts.

[Robbie]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Blue flags for drivers being lapped, also radio communication from pits.

Neither of these are direclty in the hands of the driver. Radios fail, flags are not determinate enough.

If you're being lapped by a string of cars can you be sure when to resume the racing line? When exactly should you leave the racing line? Might you inadvertently brake test somebody if you didn't know they were right up your gear box?

[felttip]

They should mount a video camera on the back of the car and provide a (mirrored) LCD display to show what's behind. Then you can get rid of the mirrors and their aero drag.

[madmac]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Blue flags for drivers being lapped, also radio communication from pits.

I think JV is right.

OK point taken but being cynical the pit radio can also tell you when to block :

But all in all JV has a good point.

[Yelnats]

Good idea Jacques!

And then we could install the electronic equivelant of the metal feelers used to aid parking in the fifties. Woe be to those who ignore the buzzing in their ear-piece, a collision is imminent!

[ehagar]

The problem with comparing F-1 to bikes are that:

a) the consequences of a crash on bikes are much more severe. Look how Foggies career ended. A backmarker didn't see him, collision, game over.

b) You may not have mirrors but you can look back and see the other rider. You can probably hear them better too.

[Scudetto]

Like Jacques ever used his mirrors anyway.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Scudetto
Like Jacques ever used his mirrors anyway.

Well yeah... usually his accidents are punting people.

[kismet]

Why do I have a vague recollection of pit-to-car radio communication appearing on the list of "Things to be banned in the future"? Have the FIA given up on that one as well? Or have I dreamt the whole thing?

[kenjafield]

Originally posted by kismet
Why do I have a vague recollection of pit-to-car radio communication appearing on the list of "Things to be banned in the future"? Have the FIA given up on that one as well? Or have I dreamt the whole thing?

I think it was pit-to-car telemetry that was "to be banned". And the radio communications could be monitored by the FIA from now on to make sure no team orders are given again.

[AtlanticRacer]

he does have a point. if the FIA wont slap the wrist of the blockers in F1, ban the mirrors. the blocking and the cheapness has gotten somewhat out of hand...

[A3]

You just mind your own business, like the motorbike guys."

Well duh, they can hear each other and they have the ability to look back by turning their body.

[kismet]

Originally posted by kismet
Why do I have a vague recollection of pit-to-car radio communication appearing on the list of "Things to be banned in the future"? Have the FIA given up on that one as well? Or have I dreamt the whole thing?

I have always wanted to quote myself and this is as good an opportunity as any. I did some searching and it turns out that my initial suspicion was right: the FIA did indeed intend to ban "all radio communication between the team and the drivers" (using the wording from grandprix.com). I don't know if they've wimped out or seen the light or something and officially scrapped that idea, but it was definitely on the list to begin with.

[A3]

It was on their list, but it was scrapped becuase the teams complained it was not safe.

[Enkei]

Let's ban Jacques, half of the blocking problems would be gone

[HAVG]

You guys talk like it was easy turning your body on a motorcycle at 200 +kmh and take a look back ;)
First of all, you can only do it to the left side (unless you want to lift the throttle)(you have to lift 1 hand to make a "complete" turn), (look mom, no hands) (I always make that move entering highways, left side turn).
Second, turning your head on this kind of bikes, using a helmet, is useless, unless you are an owl.

I also like the back fiber optic camera idea, this ones are easy to use, easy to install, and weight less than a normal set of mirrors.

[simpson]

With the sophisticated electronics capabilities of todays F1 cars, why not have it set so that the cars can detect via GPS that another car or two is beside and not allow the steering to be turned any more than is safe?

In fact, why not have the best line programmed in for the track, so that the driver doesn't have to really touch the wheel?

Sheesh!

[howardt]

Yes, then the "drivers" could sit in the control tower with a perfect view of all the other cars around theirs. Or alternatively, they could sit in the bar with their feet up while the mechanics & engineers get on with the racing.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by simpson
With the sophisticated electronics capabilities of todays F1 cars, why not have it set so that the cars can detect via GPS that another car or two is beside and not allow the steering to be turned any more than is safe?

In fact, why not have the best line programmed in for the track, so that the driver doesn't have to really touch the wheel?

Sheesh!

I think that most GPS systems have a margin of error of a few meters or so. Thus, they would not be appropriate to warn off cars that are racing mere centimeters from one another.

[Manson]

Originally posted by AtlanticRacer
he does have a point. if the FIA wont slap the wrist of the blockers in F1, ban the mirrors. the blocking and the cheapness has gotten somewhat out of hand...

I agree. I've made the same statement on numerous occasions about banning mirrors. Have the officials have one-way radio communications to the drivers telling them they are about to be lapped. Works for other divisions.

[Jordan191]

I wonder if Jacques remembers 1997

[Paste]

Originally posted by Enkei
Let's ban Jacques, half of the blocking problems would be gone

Do you even WATCH Formula One, or do you just take it upon yourself to shoot your mouth off whenever you feel like it without anything to back it up?

[Todd]

Do other car racing series that have banned mirrors have standing starts? Suppose you were trying to assess blame for Ralf, Kimi and Rubens' crash at the last GP. All of them were just converging on the racing line. Without mirrors, such crashes would be likely to happen at every single start.

[SlateGray]

Without mirrors MS would not have been able to lay in wait for Damon in 94 and would not have seen Jacques coming in 97. No mirrors would haved saved MS's reputation.

[random]

It's a good idea, make it so Max.

[Todd]

Or JV could just learn how to qualify.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Todd
Do other car racing series that have banned mirrors have standing starts? Suppose you were trying to assess blame for Ralf, Kimi and Rubens' crash at the last GP. All of them were just converging on the racing line. Without mirrors, such crashes would be likely to happen at every single start.

That crash probably wouldnt of happened if they didnt have mirrors since Rubens wouldnt of assumed ralf would see him and simply would of played it as he saw it,ie ralf is moving over id better move or get hit.

Without mirrors there would never be any more assumptions and estimations.Cars could simply pick their lines and go for it,and if they are faster they would get through.

Overtaking cars would be able to predict where their opponents would move and take corresponding action since the guy up front wouldnt even know he was there until it was too late to close the door.

I think it would help overtaking.

[glorius&victorius]

Mirrors make fighting between drivers possible!
An overtaking manuevre without mirrors wouldn't taste as sweet as one with mirrors.

Imagine how boring a battle between Senna and Mansell would look without mirrors.
That's what made their battles so cool. They fought eachother, all the way, watching eachother and not giving in...

Imagine Monaco 92 without mirrors. Would we have seen a better final 8 laps?

Imagine how boring Senna would look without having mirrors. Senna was the "mirror driver" in his early days, holding up half of the grid.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by glorius&victorius
Mirrors make fighting between drivers possible!
An overtaking manuevre without mirrors wouldn't taste as sweet as one with mirrors.

Imagine how boring a battle between Senna and Mansell would look without mirrors.
That's what made their battles so cool. They fought eachother, all the way, watching eachother and not giving in...

Imagine Monaco 92 without mirrors. Would we have seen a better final 8 laps?

Imagine how boring Senna would look without having mirrors. Senna was the "mirror driver" in his early days, holding up half of the grid.

Since they made that dumb one move rule drivers cant really fight any more anyway,its just a contest to see who can brake the latest.
They could still do that with no mirrors since im sure that at one point they would become aware of a car next to them.
It wouldnt be too late to fight just too late to block.

[masterhit]

You have to like Jacques for at least trying to think of original ideas. It's a good idea when you think about it - it just means using your senses more, like in wet races. Could be more overtaking.

[steeng]

Originally posted by Todd
Or JV could just learn how to qualify.

Or JV could run on less fuel rather than always qualifying on extremely heavy fuel loads.

[steeng]

I don't think they need to ban mirrors. All th FIA has to do is enforce the rules.

All the FIA has to do is black flag any driver that is obviously blocking another driver lap after lap. They also then have to discipline a driver that causes a crash at the start of the race due to his "chopping" or blocking like Ralf Schumacher recently did.

[random]

Originally posted by steeng
I don't think they need to ban mirrors. All th FIA has to do is enforce the rules.

All the FIA has to do is black flag any driver that is obviously blocking another driver lap after lap. They also then have to discipline a driver that causes a crash at the start of the race due to his "chopping" or blocking like Ralf Schumacher recently did.

C'mon, making the officials do the work is lazy way to run any sport. I hate sports decided by penalities and officials decisions.

What he's suggesting is a way to change the sport and make penalties unnecessary. It would allow all the action to be played out on the track and require no input from the officials. Penalties in racing suck and changing the sport to make it more exciting while reducing those penalities is a good move.

[baddog]

he's been smoking some good **** again hasnt he.. I mean effectively you would ban any overtaking manouvre that would involve the passed driver going off his normal line.. which would. in f1, mean banning all overtaking...

Shaun

[steeng]

Originally posted by Enkei
Let's ban Jacques, half of the blocking problems would be gone

Another quality post from someone who has no idea what's going on in F1!

[Arrow]

Originally posted by baddog
he's been smoking some good **** again hasnt he.. I mean effectively you would ban any overtaking manouvre that would involve the passed driver going off his normal line.. which would. in f1, mean banning all overtaking...

Shaun

How would it?

[steeng]

Originally posted by Jordan191
I wonder if Jacques remembers 1997

I'm sure JV does.
But Michael looked over and saw that JV was along side him and then turned into JV. So whether or not Michael had mirrors on his car had nothing to do with Schumacher's pathetic attempt to steal another championship.

[steeng]

Originally posted by baddog
he's been smoking some good **** again hasnt he.. I mean effectively you would ban any overtaking manouvre that would involve the passed driver going off his normal line.. which would. in f1, mean banning all overtaking...

Shaun

Actually if drivers weren't doing blatant blocking (which is what I'm talking about) there would be more overtaking and more racing.

[random]

Originally posted by baddog
he's been smoking some good **** again hasnt he.. I mean effectively you would ban any overtaking manouvre that would involve the passed driver going off his normal line.. which would. in f1, mean banning all overtaking...

Shaun

Uh, no, it would make overtaking far more common.

Actually what he's saying is that it would usually require the "passing" driver to go offline. And that's the way racing's supoosed to work.

What's not supposed to happen is the driver in front looking at his mirrors and blocking the guy trying to pass him. Which is a practice that has become ingrained into the modern sport. This is just a way to get rid of that. CART has done much the same this year with penalties, but I think the no mirrors rule is a much better method of arriving at the same goal.

Basically, because the driver in front wouldn't know where the other guy was trying to take him, it would almost certianly make for one hell of a lot more overtaking.

[Mox]

How many different rulings can FIA apply to this sentence ...

"I didn't see him".

Since you all of a sudden have no mirrors, you lose any idea of where your opponent (or a lapping car) is. Even if you had blue flags waving all over, you wouldn't know if he was going inside or outside, left or right. So you don't know if it's safe to turn in (Schumacher, Jerez '97). Safe to stay wide (Trulli, Hockenheim 2003). Safe to leave the racing line (Alex Yoong anytime, anywhere ;) ). Safe to stay on the racing line (DC Spa '98). Safe to change direction (Ralf, Hockenheim 2003). Safe to stay on line and keep completely still (Zonta, Spa 2000 - thankfully he had mirrors).

Foul? No Foul? Intentional? Unintentional?

I sure would hate to make that call. It's hard enough as it is.

[random]

Originally posted by Mox
Foul? No Foul? Intentional? Unintentional?

I sure would hate to make that call. It's hard enough as it is.

I vote no fouls, ever. The sport did fine without penalties for the first half of it's existence, it doesn't need a penalty box now.

Let the drivers race, let them collide and don't worry about penalties unless someone pulls something horribly obvious and intentional (like Schumi's move at Jerez in '97).

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah but I could argue somewhat logically that wasnt intentional, and equally the fault of both drivers.

I say ban 'sporting regulations' on the basis they have no defineable limit. And get rid of those stupiud judged sports in the olympics as well

[baddog]

Originally posted by random

I vote no fouls, ever. The sport did fine without penalties for the first half of it's existence, it doesn't need a penalty box now.

Let the drivers race, let them collide and don't worry about penalties unless someone pulls something horribly obvious and intentional (like Schumi's move at Jerez in '97).

sorry, but under your system that incident would not be punishable.. you cant say 'no punishments, excpet for michael of course because we dont like him...'

Shaun

[Mox]

Originally posted by random

I vote no fouls, ever. The sport did fine without penalties for the first half of it's existence, it doesn't need a penalty box now.

Let the drivers race, let them collide and don't worry about penalties unless someone pulls something horribly obvious and intentional (like Schumi's move at Jerez in '97).

And how many people died during that period ?