1997 replies to this topic

[Tomecek]

From gp2003.com

Last Tuesday, Japanese tyre supplier Bridgestone, analysed images from the Hungarian Grand Prix and in the process it came to their attention that the tread on the Michelin competitors was surprisingly wide. The broad front rubber now in question forms part of a new technology developed by Michelin for all their partner teams this season.

After this discovery, Bridgestone alerted Charlie Whiting, who in turn carried out certain checks. The technical delegate of the FIA then decided to change the interpretation of the regulation aimed at the checking of tyres. From now on, the tread width will be measured after use and must not exceed 270mm.

For Michelin, whose tyres were perfectly legal when measured up until now (specified by the regulations until today), this is very bad news. Indeed, the French manufacturer will have to conceive and develop all new compounds in time for Monza, fifteen days from now.

[EvilPhil]

Surely they will protest that decision at this point in the championship.

[Garagiste]

Even if the rule interpretation has changed, and I'll reserve judgement until I read it here I think - that is a barmy article. Why would altering the width of the tyre necessiatate a new compound?

[logic]

This must be joke out of day, no such rulechange can be done in few days...

[Double Apex]

If that is true, it could very well have a major impact on the outcome of this year's championship!

But then again, so did the discovery of Bridgestone using different front and rear compounds and the subsequent banning of that.

Tyre war in process...no love lost between Bridgestone and Michelin.

[graeme]

Here we go again, another late rule change so Ferrari win the championship.

Surely the tyres were legal when they were first introduced.

[Double Apex]

Does anyone know anything about the reliability of that site?

[Enkei]

I very much doubt this is true, even if the FIA wants to introduce a new rule, teams will never accept a rulechange in two weeks time.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Double Apex
Does anyone know anything about the reliability of that site?

I hear several times this site is run by son of Jean Todt Frederico, usualy quite reliable.

[heki]

Published also on www.grandprix.com:

The FIA has sent the Formula 1 teams a letter warning them that it has been brought to the federation's attention that some cars may be running with front tyres which have a tread width of more than the 270mm limit which is laid down in the FIA Sporting Regulations. This is a matter of interpretation as it depends on what one considers "the tread width" to be. It is no secret that Michelin has tyres which are different in design that those of Bridgestones and it is seems that there are allegations that some of the shoulder of these tyres is deforming and acting as tread at high speeds when the tyres are loaded. There are claims that this may increase the tread width to 280mm or more which, according to some sources, could result in "a very significant competitive advantage" for the teams using these tyres.

The problem is in the definition of "tread width" and how one can measure it.

When measured at rest all the tyres in F1 at the moment comply with the tread width regulation but if the tyres flatten out as is claimed the contact patch may increase. The first issue therefore is to define "tread width" and how it should be measured in the future. It is possible that the FIA scrutineers could decide that they will measure any area of the tyre that appears to have been in contact with the road, rather than what is in contact with the road when the cars are at rest. Having said that it is very hard for scrutineers to prove that this is happening systematically and that any scuffing of the tyres was not caused by running over kerbs.

[Menace]

Oh dear.

[A3]

If it's not on Atlas, bs...;)

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Enkei
I very much doubt this is true, even if the FIA wants to introduce a new rule, teams will never accept a rulechange in two weeks time.

As far as I understand, it is not rule change in fact, rather change in process of measuring. Until now tyre was measured before use, now it is measured after use. But I agree it is such a big change that teams should agree it first.

It is similar to last year's groove problem. Remember Michelin rear tyres. There were no grooves at all on them, specially at Nürburgring.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by A3
If it's not on Atlas, bs...;)

[maclaren]

This would be good news for Mclaren as the wide fronts seemed to suit Williams much better. But I hope it's untrue because rulechanges shouldn't happen at this stage of season!!!

[Garagiste]

Originally posted by Tomecek
As far as I understand, it is not rule change in fact, rather change in process of measuring.

Indeed, it's in the interpretation of the existing rules, which could be worrying if this turns out to be true. Similar to what scuppered McLaren's "fiddle brake" system.
But then again the expected protests about tread depth have never happened, so this is probably just fuss about nothing.

[heki]

Originally posted by Tomecek
As far as I understand, it is not rule change in fact, rather change in process of measuring. Until now tyre was measured before use, now it is measured after use. But I agree it is such a big change that teams should agree it first.

It is similar to last year's groove problem. Remember Michelin rear tyres. There were no grooves at all on them, specially at Nürburgring.

They want to measure it 'in-use' based on some estimation derived from measurement after use...
There were some similar issues with the engine cover of the Renault's, which was supposed to be flexing too much travelling at higher speeds...

[logic]

Originally posted by Tomecek
As far as I understand, it is not rule change in fact, rather change in process of measuring. Until now tyre was measured before use, now it is measured after use.

Well, or in use? Didn't heki just wrote that in rest they are ok, but when loaded flat out they expand... Can they measure it when týres are in use?

[RedIsTheColour]

This is a sticky wicket for the FIA. Note how they carefully avoid the issue of whether Mich have been outside the spirit of the regs so far & concentrate on making sure they run with a 270mm contact patch (as intended by the regs) in Monza. When people wondered how Mich could run treaded tyres down to slicks, the FIA "clarified" by saying tread must be visible at the end, not x mm deep. This sounds like the same sort of fix.

If I had (say) 10mm extra contact patch at the front, I'd have a clear advantage especially passing on the brakes. The problem I see for Mich is reworking an excellent tyre to deform less at the edges when that has been designed in - if that is the case. They are "square" if I remember the talk at the time.

As everyone with an opinion agrees Mich have a great advantage this year, it shouldn't hurt them too much to run within the 270mm patch. If they refuse or appeal the "correct" measurement it will look like their hard work so far is based on bending the rules.

[logic]

Ok

[Al.]

Now on Autosport as well.

Didn't Michelin also have a grove that wore down at a angle, thus as the tread wears the contact patch gets wider. I remember a argument at the start of the season regarding asymmetrical groves on Michelins.

[troyf1]

Nothing quite like having the potential outcome of the championship based on a judges decision

[logic]

I think the best thing in this news is that all Ferrari fans get a moment of delight in this hard times.. just look at tifosi-club forum, what a joy there is now, after long time of worrying time It is just amazing

[EvilPhil]

Of course there isnt actually any proof that Michelin are taking advantage of this loop hole. So it could all be water under the bridge.

[lukywill]

3 weeks without major news would hurt f1
let's see if this news are capital for michelins over bridgestones

[aportinga]

**** this

Because B'Stone and Ferrari are getting slammed they have to change the rules..... why now? Why not earlier on. The folks at B'Stone grasping for strings because they are getting their asses handed to them.

CW
B'Stone
If Ferrari had anything to do with this
F1

[Daniel Lester]

It's an unworkable rule and if anyone fell foul of it then they'd appeal and it would be thrown out.

It smeels like Bridgestones doing after the little issue of different compounds in Monaco, an eye for an eye as they say.

I believe the FIA do retain the power to introduce different measurement systems for tyres at anytime.

It's getting a bit niggily at the top.l

[Alien]

This is bullsh*t from F-1, as someone said, the tyres were perfectly legal before. This is just Bridgestone applying the tactic: "we cannot beat them on track, so lets bet them out of it"

[lukywill]

Originally posted by Alien
This is bullsh*t from F-1, as someone said, the tyres were perfectly legal before. This is just Bridgestone applying the tactic: "we cannot beat them on track, so lets bet them out of it"

the winner car can allways have a puncture in all 4 tyres before join the parc fermé

[zengiman]

Hmm, looks like the WDC is wide open again...

Monty will be biting his pillow tonight

[kanec]

Originally posted by Alien
This is bullsh*t from F-1, as someone said, the tyres were perfectly legal before. This is just Bridgestone applying the tactic: "we cannot beat them on track, so lets bet them out of it"

Michilin applied the same tactic during Monaco this year.

[RRT1963]

Originally posted by aportinga
**** this

Because B'Stone and Ferrari are getting slammed they have to change the rules..... why now? Why not earlier on. The folks at B'Stone grasping for strings because they are getting their asses handed to them.

CW
B'Stone
If Ferrari had anything to do with this
F1

What is this? A sport or freaking figure skating?

[kanec]

Originally posted by zengiman
Monty will be biting his pillow tonight

I'm not sure how you mean that.

[RedIsTheColour]

Nice Ferrari troll aportinga, but Ferrari & Bridgestone aren't getting slammed, take a look at the WDC & WCC tables: they are still in it (just). It's amazing that the whole of F1, particularly Ferrari and Charlie Whiting, are suddenly to blame for a rule Mich *might* have bent.

Bridge have had all year to spot wide wheels on Mich cars and only now do they bring it up. That's more likely to mean "recent development" than "conspiracy" but as a Ferrari fan I'm chuffed to bits that Bridgestone's recent defcit has been partially understood and they can move forward. They can't risk a new carcass for Monza so they have passed the problem to their competitors, an opportunity that comes soley from the latest Mich being arguably over-wide. Nice work Bridgestone, but Mich already won the points in Hungary...

[The Soul Stealer]

Originally posted by aportinga
**** this

Because B'Stone and Ferrari are getting slammed they have to change the rules..... why now? Why not earlier on. The folks at B'Stone grasping for strings because they are getting their asses handed to them.

CW
B'Stone
If Ferrari had anything to do with this
F1

If this was last season and the Ferrari tyres would you be mouthing as much?

If there is a question asked over the legitimacy of a tyre spec then there is a question that needs answering regardless of the motives behind the question.

In this case Bridgestone have hit on something, such is the way of the game...

[benn5325]

Originally posted by The Soul Stealer

If this was last season and the Ferrari tyres would you be mouthing as much?

If there is a question asked over the legitimacy of a tyre spec then there is a question that needs answering regardless of the motives behind the question.

In this case Bridgestone have hit on something, such is the way of the game...

Some people were just born to bash!

[lukywill]

Pierre Dupasquier told Atlas F1 that the teams could boycott the race if the FIA do not go back on their decision

http://www.atlasf1.c.../id/11544/.html

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

I heard Michelin tyres emanate a funny smell...like chemicals in the air...after quals.

To all 'angry' fans who have posted...what goes around comes around in F1.
Michelin should learn that before having launched accusations aimed at B-stone in the past.
This is part-and-parcel of tyre wars. But I don't think that the latest 'situation' [if true] will have any effects on WDC.

[A3]

So it's true, it's on Atlas now...

Dupasquier is contradicting himself I think:

The current tyre design was made with the insurance that measurements are made on a new tyre and not a used one.

Building a tyre two millimetres less would not lose anything in performance.

Why didn't they build the tyre 2 milimetres less then?

[Robbie]

Two English teams cheating? the ‘pure racers’ using tyres that they know to be too wide?

There's a rule somewhere that only teams that MS drives for cheat, so Mac and Williams can't be cheating -- it simply isn't possible.

[The Soul Stealer]

"Pierre Dupasquier told Atlas F1 that the teams could boycott the race if the FIA do not go back on their decision"

Cool, there'll be a Minardi on the podium in Monza GO JOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[karlth]

I don't blame Bridgestone and Ferrari for complaining but changing the interpretation of the regulations with immediate effect as Charlie Whiting is doing is absolutely ridicilous. Changing the checks from before the race to after is a major blow to technical development. Why shouldn't the same regulation then also apply to thread depth so that every single car since Melbourne should be disqualified too?

I hope they boycott and Whiting can put "I ruined the 2003 season" on his resume.

[Double Apex]

Hmmmm....Dupasquier threatening with a boycot. This could get ugly...

[A3]

Originally posted by The Soul Stealer
Cool, there'll be a Minardi on the podium in Monza GO JOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lukywill]

Originally posted by A3
So it's true, it's on Atlas now...

Dupasquier is contradicting himself I think:





Why didn't they build the tyre 2 milimetres less then?

because

The current tyre design was made with the insurance that measurements are made on a new tyre and not a used one.

[A3]

Yeah, but why the need to build it like they did if it didn't improve performance?

[HSJ]

Well, the rules are rules. If the Michelins are illegal, so be it. However, Dupasquier pointed out that the current rules states that the tyres are measured new, not worn. It would be absolutely wrong for the FIA to change rules during a season. To change the rules of a game while the game is running is... well unspeakably low and corrupt to put it mildly. I've always taken this view regarding rules and 'games' (game meaning anything really).

What's funny is that this may not have any effect on McLaren. They didn't get the new wide Michelin front tyres to work for them, though they may still have used them in the last couple of races. They did make a big difference to Williams though, who got a jump in performance in Monaco where they started using them, and have of course had it ever since. I'm not saying McLaren couldn't suffer too, but they might not considering their history with the wide fronts. They tried it earlier in the season but didn't adopt them because they didn't get anything out of them. Even now if they're using them they may well not be getting anything special out of them. To my knowledge it has to do with the 17D's front end aero, including the twin keel.

[aportinga]

Nice Ferrari troll aportinga, but Ferrari & Bridgestone aren't getting slammed, take a look at the WDC & WCC tables: they are still in it (just). It's amazing that the whole of F1, particularly Ferrari and Charlie Whiting, are suddenly to blame for a rule Mich *might* have bent.

Yeah it's a troll. Get over it and learn to read.... My last comment mentioned that "IF" Ferrari had anything to do with it. Seems too me that you conviniently forgot to add that to your brilliant quote.

[karlth]

The current tire design has been used since the 2001 San Marino Grand Prix according to Michelin.

[lukywill]

Originally posted by A3
Yeah, but why the need to build it like they did if it didn't improve performance?

I think there is another reason for this."