35 replies to this topic

[fines]

Lately, I have been thinking about a few oddities, that didn't quite make it to state-of-the-art status, so to speak, one being two-stroke engines. Being heavily absorbed by AAA research atm, I recall the 1.5-litre Duesenberg that raced in the 1926 Indy 500, the earlier Amplex and Elmore cars, and the almost stoneage Lewis and Haynes & Apperson attempts. Rummaging in my memory cells about European two-strokers I draw a blank, I'm afraid!

Anyone care to list a few?


__________________
Drink is a great provoker of things
Lechery it provokes, and unprovokes
It provokes the desire
But it takes away the performance

Therefore much drink may be said
To be an equivocator with lechery
It makes him, and it mars him
It sets him on, and it takes him off

It persuades him, and disheartens him
Makes him stand to, and not stand to
In conclusion, equivocates him in a sleep
And, giving him the lie, leaves him

[conjohn]

If you accept rally cars, Saab had a pretty good two-stroke in the 60s, Eric Carlsson pedaling.
He had a half-decent brother-in-law, name of Fern or something....

[Tim Murray]

Trossi-Monaco

[Wolf]

Were F3 Wartburgs of late sixties ('67 and thereabouts) two strokes?

[dbw]

good question...while saab had their own formula[i think] and dkw's showed up in formula juniors and a few sports racers,i think the motorcycle guys took it to the higest level...[actually i think modern chainsaws show the most current thinking!]

[ray b]

biggest racing class of all time
is all most all two-strokes

GO-CARTS

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Wolf
Were F3 Wartburgs of late sixties ('67 and thereabouts) two strokes?

I just checked- indeed they were, as were Melkus FJ and F3 cars that used Wartburg 1000cc 3 cyl engine...

[Don Capps]

Michael, What a neat idea: Cul-de-sacs in Automobile Racing ......

[Geoff E]

Of course there was the Saab Formula Junior:- http://www.saabtrade...uk/history6.htm

[Roger Clark]

Never built unfortunately (?) was the Porsche design study for a 4.5 litre W24 2-stroke 1938 Mercedes.

[WDH74]

Didn't the Macs-IT Special Can-Am car use two stroke snowmobile engines (four of them!)? Also, I've been reading and enjoying the "Road Racing Specials" book from Vintage Motorsport, and have noticed several American road racing specials put together with the Saab 750GT mill for the H-Mod class. Apparently they were pretty good engines.
-William

[robert dick]

1912 Coupe de l'Auto for 3-litre voitures légères (concurrently with GP de l'ACF at Dieppe) :
Côte and Koechlin.

[Brun]

There were Wartburg and Trabant rallye cars, some of them relatively succesful in their class. And there's a thread on the Melkus here.

In theory, a two-stroke should have twice the bhp per litre figure compared to a four-stroke. But in practice, there's some loss by unburned fuel escaping through the exhaust. That's inherent to the design. Still it would be interesting to see what had happened if some serious research had gone into it.

[sat]

--German Formula Junior cars with DKW two-stroke engines

--Czechoslovak Aero-Minor sport cars in fifties

[anjakub]

In Poland:
- Formula Junior and Formula 3 cars Rak with Wartburg two-stroke engines
- Polish Syrena cars in rally and touringcars races.

[fines]

Originally posted by robert dick
1912 Coupe de l'Auto for 3-litre voitures légères (concurrently with GP de l'ACF at Dieppe) :
Côte and Koechlin.

These two came to my mind almost as soon as I awoke this morning

Also, a few years earlier there was the Busson-Levée 2-stroke Voiturette.

Shame on me for forgetting the DKW and the Wartburg

The most recent I can think of was the Formula 2 project by Anders Olofsson (1982?) which involved, iirc, a couple Husqvarna motorcycle engines!!? OTTOMH, I can't recall if it ever raced, someone?

Originally posted by Brun
In theory, a two-stroke should have twice the bhp per litre figure compared to a four-stroke. But in practice, there's some loss by unburned fuel escaping through the exhaust. That's inherent to the design. Still it would be interesting to see what had happened if some serious research had gone into it.

The 2-stroke principle works best with very small cylinders, that's why it's been so dominant in motorcycle racing. Makes you think about the Amplex for sure, which had a 7.4-litre 4-cylinder engine...


__________________
If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die?
And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?

If we are like you in the rest
We will resemble you in that
The villany you teach me I will execute
And it shall go hard but I will better the instruction

[Superliner II]

Hardly a cul-de-sac in automobile racing if all of the current F1 grid started out their racing careers in 2 stroke 100cc Karts.

The sport of Kart racing is very healthy with classes from 50cc cadets up to 100cc and 125 cc gear box through to 250cc monsters that will put everything bar some F3000 cars to shame around most of the major tracks. David Coulthard described a 250cc gear box Kart as the most terrifying thing he ever driven. Senna when asked who was the best driver he had ever seen said Mike Wilson, 6 time world kart champion in the 1980's who Senna raced against regularly during that period.

I just think the title to this thread is misleading.

[Wolf]

I think the biggest problem with 2-strokes is fuel consumption (AFAIK, the 'ideal' cylinder size of some 250cc is same for both 2T and 4T engines)... Anyways if Germans could build 2T diesel aircraft engine, surely 2T engines are good enough to power racing cars.

I think it's shame ex-500cc bike class has, or will next year, outlaw 2T engines, since they are really pretty little things- all kinds ov valves ('regular'*, reed, rotary), plus weird configurations like big-bang engines...

* those ones are/were used only for lorry and maritime engines, AFAIK

[Michael Müller]

Strange, nobody mentioned the 1934 Zoller voiturette up to now ...

[Vitesse2]

Various of the Czech Z cars of the 20s and 30s were two-strokes. DKW built several small two-stroke sports cars in the late 20s, plus a twin-engined (2 x 500cc) cyclecar.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Wolf
- - - - AFAIK, the 'ideal' cylinder size of some 250cc is same for both 2T and 4T engines - - -

I always thought it was 350 cc giving
1500 4 cylinder (375) - BMW Turbo, Hart, Cosworth FVA and BDA, Climax FPF, Porsche 550
2500 8 cylinder (312) - Mercedes, Lancia, Climax Godiva
2800 V8 (350) - Novi
3000 V8 (375) - Cosworth DFV
3500 V10 - Honda, Renault, Ferrari, Judd, etc
4200 V12 - Curiosly, just about the only size that Ferrari didn't make!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by D-Type


I always thought it was 350 cc giving
1500 4 cylinder (375) - BMW Turbo, Hart, Cosworth FVA and BDA, Climax FPF, Porsche 550
2500 8 cylinder (312) - Mercedes, Lancia, Climax Godiva
2800 V8 (350) - Novi
3000 V8 (375) - Cosworth DFV
3500 V10 - Honda, Renault, Ferrari, Judd, etc
4200 V12 - Curiosly, just about the only size that Ferrari didn't make!

The late Tony Rudd mentioned in It Was Fun that when he was at Lotus they came up with an entirely modular engine concept.

I'll reproduce his words exactly, it gives a marvellous insight into Tony's clear thinking and clear prose.

In Detroit I made a presentation ... on 'the passenger car engine of the year 2000'. I argued that there must be an optimum cylinder and combustion chamber size and configuration for a given fuel and duty. I suggested, on what we knew, that it would be a 4-valve monobloc somewhere between 500 and 625cc in capacity, developing about 50bhp. If the designer needed 200hp, he threaded four such cylinders onto a stick; if he wanted 400hp, he used eight.

[dbw]

yikes! does that ever sound like the engine in the honda s2000....2 liters,4 cyl,4 valves,240 horses...year introduced;1999!!not modular but fits the bill quite well....many have tried to tie honda and lotus together since 1959 when mr.honda himself bought an elite...just look at the dash on the first s500's![come to think of it..toyota bought one too..presto!the 2000 gt...[just check out those rear shock towers]...hmmmm...240z.....

[Aanderson]

Originally posted by fines
Lately, I have been thinking about a few oddities, that didn't quite make it to state-of-the-art status, so to speak, one being two-stroke engines. Being heavily absorbed by AAA research atm, I recall the 1.5-litre Duesenberg that raced in the 1926 Indy 500, the earlier Amplex and Elmore cars, and the almost stoneage Lewis and Haynes & Apperson attempts. Rummaging in my memory cells about European two-strokers I draw a blank, I'm afraid!

Anyone care to list a few?


__________________
Drink is a great provoker of things
Lechery it provokes, and unprovokes
It provokes the desire
But it takes away the performance

Therefore much drink may be said
To be an equivocator with lechery
It makes him, and it mars him
It sets him on, and it takes him off

It persuades him, and disheartens him
Makes him stand to, and not stand to
In conclusion, equivocates him in a sleep
And, giving him the lie, leaves him

For starters,

No one has mentioned the Elto 2-cyl, 2-stroke outboard motors that were almost as much a staple of AAA, even early USAC Midgets from the middle 1930's into the early 60's?

Art Anderson

[fines]

Originally posted by Wolf
I think the biggest problem with 2-strokes is fuel consumption (AFAIK, the 'ideal' cylinder size of some 250cc is same for both 2T and 4T engines)... Anyways if Germans could build 2T diesel aircraft engine, surely 2T engines are good enough to power racing cars.

Wolfie, don't know about these aircraft engines, but I bet these were 2-stroke Diesel turbocharged ones, which is altogether a very different animal! Turbocharging will address the problem of efficiency in big cylinders, because it "blows" the combustion chamber clean before new fuel is injected. Doesn't work the same if you have normally aspirated, 2-stroke Otto engines with large cylinders!

Originally posted by Wolf
I think it's shame ex-500cc bike class has, or will next year, outlaw 2T engines, since they are really pretty little things- all kinds ov valves ('regular'*, reed, rotary), plus weird configurations like big-bang engines...

I second your notion - I stopped watching motorcycle racing when the four-strokes were introduced. They say MotoGP is exciting these days, they don't know how it was before!


__________________
If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die?
And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
If we are like you in the rest
We will resemble you in that

If a Jew wrong a Christian
What is his humility?
Revenge!

If a Christian wrong a Jew
What should his sufferance be by Christian example?
Why, revenge!

The villany you teach me I will execute
And it shall go hard but I will better the instruction

[fines]

Oh, and about the ideal cylinder size: In the late nineties the standard size in motorcycle racing was 125cc, but only because the rules did not allow smaller ones.


__________________
If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die?
And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
If we are like you in the rest
We will resemble you in that

If a Jew wrong a Christian
What is his humility?
Revenge!

If a Christian wrong a Jew
What should his sufferance be by Christian example?
Why, revenge!

The villany you teach me I will execute
And it shall go hard but I will better the instruction

[Henk]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg in F1 entries that never made it
I looked up an old article on the Swedish F2 engine based on Husqvarna motorcycle engines.
Egon Everts was mentioned there in connection with the 2-stroke engines.

Some background and data :

5 cyl-inline (5 x one-cylinder 384cc Husqvarna motorcycle engines.)
1920cc
5 Mikuni 38mm carburettors
Engine power > 300bhp.

Conceived by Swedish Porsche tuner Bo Strandell and Lars Nilsson. So at the time it speculated that his F2 engine project would be a Porsche based engine. So everyone was surprised when they unveiled their straight 5-cyl 2-stroke engine comprising of 5 Husqvarna motorcycle engines.

They optimistically claimed the following pros :
 Small physical size engine making it advantageous for the aerodynamics.
 Low weight (Up to 40% lighter than current units in 1981.)
 Theoretically a higher power output

The con was :
 Higher fuel comsumption than a 4-stroke engine

Anders Olofsson used the engine in a ex-Divina Galica March 792 in a few events in 1981 before the project was shelved. Vanvall had used this practise in the 50s when they coupled four Norton Manx motorcycle engines together, but their engine was a 4-stroke unit. German Egon Everts was trying to develop an two-stroke engine in the late 1970s intended for Formula 1. The rule-makers quickly deleted that option by banning two-stroke engines for Formula 1. Apart from the various Saab´s and DKW´s in rallying and circuit racing during the 50s and 60s a few had used two-stroke engines in singleseater racing. The most notable was german Gerhard Mitter who raced a 3-cylinder Auto-Union two-stroke engine in his Lotus 18 in the early 1960s. He was also trying to develop a 4cylinder version intended for a F2 Lotus 22 when he was killed. Among others Heinz Melkus also raced three-cylinder Wartburg powered singleseaters in East Germany during the same period. In 1985 Bo Strandell conceived his own Group C2 car with power from a Porsche 934 engine. It was raced unsuccessfully during 1985-86. Some 10 years later Bo Strandell was involved in GT racing. With Anders Olofsson once again driving for him in a Strandell run Ferrari F40.

Egon Evertz constructed a 6-cyl 2-stroke rotary disc valve engine with a 1.5-litre capacity. Tests in 1976-1977 revealed an output of 328 bhp. In a F1 racing car two of these engines would produce 650 bhp.

The story is that the performance of Evertz’ engine has been the direct reason for banning 2-stroke cars from F1. Can this be confirmed? When exactly were 2-stroke engines banned?

‘Second-generation’ 2-stroke engines with direct fuel injection, currently developed in Australia by Orbitalmay challenge a cul-de-sac view. For their S2S sports car, see http://www.orbeng.co...df/S2SPANEL.PDF

[Macca]

Has anybody mentioned the hillclimb Jedi cars with 500cc GP bike engines in them? Very nippy!



Paul Mackness

[gdecarli]

IIRC, I read on Autosprint, maybe 1984 (or 1985), about a new 2 strokes 1500cc TAG Porsche turbo engine that should have replaced the 6-strokes engine used by McLaren.
I can try to find it, on next days, but I can't promise anything!

Ciao,
Guido

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Henk
When exactly were 2-stroke engines banned?

I think in 2000, when only 10-strokes engine were allowed. Before, engine must have no more than 12 cylinders, so - if I'm still good at math - also 2-strokes were legal (i.e.: 1998 rules)
I don't remember when 12 cylinders rule was first used: end of 1960s? 1981? I don't know

Ciao,
Guido

[Wolf]

Originally posted by gdecarli
I think in 2000, when only 10-strokes engine were allowed. Before, engine must have no more than 12 cylinders, so - if I'm still good at math - also 2-strokes were legal (i.e.: 1998 rules)
I don't remember when 12 cylinders rule was first used: end of 1960s? 1981? I don't know

Ciao,
Guido

Guido, You're confusing number of cylinders and strokes. The number of strokes is the length of one cycle within engine measured in half-revolutions of crankshaft (this is not the definition, but 'description'). This means, that two stroke engine takes one revolution of crankshaft to complete thermal cycle, whereas four stroke engine takes two revolutions of crankshaft (strokes for 4T engine are intake, compression, expansion and exhaust; whereas 2T engine does overlap intake and exhaust cycles with compression and expansion).

[fines]

Another "2-stroker" was the 1920 Major Voiturette, built by Marcel Violet of Sima-Violet fame. I believe his earlier Violet-Bogey also had a 2-stroke engine!?

Guido, the 12-cylinder maximum was introduced in 1972, afaik.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Wolf
Guido, You're confusing number of cylinders and strokes.

Yes, of course... I still have some problems with technical words in English!
If you wrote "due tempi" rather than "two strokes" I could understand you much better

So, I confirm what I wrote about TAG Porsche, even if of course you have to replace "stroke" with "cylinders".
There are 6-strokes engine (it's something like a 4-strokes engine plus "washing cycle"), but I don't think they are god enough for racing (and winning) in F.1

So, I don't know when 2 strokes engine were banned. I only know that in 1981 diesel engine were banned, even if they have never been used in F.1, only at Indy.

Ciao,
Guido

[Rainer Nyberg]

Originally posted by Henk
Egon Evertz constructed a 6-cyl 2-stroke rotary disc valve engine with a 1.5-litre capacity. Tests in 1976-1977 revealed an output of 328 bhp. In a F1 racing car two of these engines would produce 650 bhp. The story is that the performance of Evertz’ engine has been the direct reason for banning 2-stroke cars from F1. Can this be confirmed? When exactly were 2-stroke engines banned?

From (a fading) memory, I am also fairly convinced that 2-strokes were banned shortly after Evertz experiments. But I don't have an exact date. I have a couple of early 80s FIA Yellow Books at home and I will look one up after work, if someone doesnt beat me to it.

[gdecarli]

When I wrote about 1981 and diesel engine, I think that I wrote less than half of what I was going to say.
IIRC in 1981 there were some important new limits on engine. I remember only about diesel, but I'm quite sure there that also different engine types were banned: maybe Wankel and 2-strokes engines.
So I think that 1981 should be the first year to check.

Ciao,
Guido

[Henk]

Guido – You are right, these ‘unconventional’ engines were banned together.

Changes in F1 regulations are summarized (in German) at
http://www.f1infos.d...ementwandel.htm

As from 1982: ban on wankel-, two-stroke- or diesel engines, and turbines.