27 replies to this topic

[my_own_shadow]

Hello!

Can somebody help: when was the last testing of Zakspeed before the team folded?

Thanks.

[fines]

Zakspeed planned tests for Jan 26-29 at Le Castellet, but did not arrive before Sunday evening (Jan 28). I have no record of them actually doing any testing, but a statement issued later that week (after the team had missed the FIA deadline on Jan 31) spoke of technical problems with the Yamaha engine, and the note in Motorsport aktuell mentioned fuel pump trouble. Their previous tests at this circuit and at Estoril earlier that month were quite encouraging, so this problem probably occured at the later tests


__________________
But if the cause be not good
The king himself has a heavy reckoning to make
When all those legs and arms and heads
Chopped off in a battle
Shall join together at the latter day
And cry all 'We died at such a place'

Some swearing, some crying for a surgeon
Some upon their wives left poor behind them
Some upon the debts they owe
Some upon their children rawly left

I am afeared there are few die well
That die in a battle
For how can they charitably dispose of any thing
When blood is their argument?
Now, if these men do not die well
It will be a black matter
For the king that led them to it

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by fines
Their previous tests at this circuit and at Estoril earlier that month were quite encouraging, so this problem probably occured at the later tests

This sounds interesting! Who drove the car(s) in Portugal? Was it Aguri Suzuki? Did Zakspeed want to run the same driver line-up in 1990 as the previous year?

[fines]

Schneider drove, and recorded some pretty rapid times. He was to be the only driver, when West (Reynolds Tobacco? Reemstma?) withdrew their support, and declined an offer by Osella.


__________________
But if the cause be not good
The king himself has a heavy reckoning to make
When all those legs and arms and heads
Chopped off in a battle
Shall join together at the latter day
And cry all 'We died at such a place'

Some swearing, some crying for a surgeon
Some upon their wives left poor behind them
Some upon the debts they owe
Some upon their children rawly left

I am afeared there are few die well
That die in a battle
For how can they charitably dispose of any thing
When blood is their argument?
Now, if these men do not die well
It will be a black matter
For the king that led them to it

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by fines
Schneider drove, and recorded some pretty rapid times. He was to be the only driver, when West (Reynolds Tobacco? Reemstma?) withdrew their support, and declined an offer by Osella.

Perhaps it was former team-mate Piercarlo Ghinzani, who had suggested to take on Schneider? Ghinzani retired from driving at the end of 1989 to take up a managerial role at Osella.

AFAIK the "West" brand belongs to Reetsma.

[fines]

I believe you're right on both counts...

[except that it's spelled Reemstma, afaik]


__________________
But if the cause be not good
The king himself has a heavy reckoning to make
When all those legs and arms and heads
Chopped off in a battle
Shall join together at the latter day
And cry all 'We died at such a place'

Some swearing, some crying for a surgeon
Some upon their wives left poor behind them
Some upon the debts they owe
Some upon their children rawly left

I am afeared there are few die well
That die in a battle
For how can they charitably dispose of any thing
When blood is their argument?
Now, if these men do not die well
It will be a black matter
For the king that led them to it

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by fines
I believe you're right on both counts...

[except that it's spelled Reemstma, afaik]

I have this nagging suspicion from something I read in the past year or so that the company is now owned by Imperial Tobacco of the UK...but don't quote me on it

[conjohn]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


I have this nagging suspicion from something I read in the past year or so that the company is now owned by Imperial Tobacco of the UK...but don't quote me on it

Your nagging suspicion is correct, Michael; see this...

http://www.tobacco.o...ews/125302.html

...where they also have a 'nagging doubt'

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Geza Sury

Perhaps it was former team-mate Piercarlo Ghinzani, who had suggested to take on Schneider? Ghinzani retired from driving at the end of 1989 to take up a managerial role at Osella.

AFAIK the "West" brand belongs to Reetsma.

I bought some West fags in Slovenia in 1991 - they were rank!!

ps Piercarlo went on to start his own F3 team, now Euro F3000. He also owns a string of Lancia dealerships.

[conjohn]

The best at getting around the regulations about tobacco advertising were, in my opinion, West, when they emblazoned their Zakspeeds (?) with 'East', in the same typeface and size as the usual 'West'.

Much more imaginative than todays 'David' and 'Kimi'...

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by conjohn
The best at getting around the regulations about tobacco advertising were, in my opinion, West, when they emblazoned their Zakspeeds (?) with 'East', in the same typeface and size as the usual 'West'.

Much more imaginative than todays 'David' and 'Kimi'...

In 1987 at the Hungaroring (but only for Friday IIRC), the Zakspeed team replaced the East and West 'brand names' used in the previous race (Hockenheim) with Hungarian labels 'Kelet' (East) and 'Nyugat' (West!). Look at this thread for details and a picture.

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by fines
Zakspeed planned tests for Jan 26-29 at Le Castellet, but did not arrive before Sunday evening (Jan 28). I have no record of them actually doing any testing, but a statement issued later that week (after the team had missed the FIA deadline on Jan 31) spoke of technical problems with the Yamaha engine, and the note in Motorsport aktuell mentioned fuel pump trouble. Their previous tests at this circuit and at Estoril earlier that month were quite encouraging, so this problem probably occured at the later tests.

I think I managed to find a picture of Zakspeed's pre-1990 season test. (It looks Le Castellet to me.) Does the car in the picture (Zakspeed 891B-Yamaha) belong to the Grand Prix cars that never raced category? BTW, the website itself looks very interesting!

[FRWL]

I have a photo from Estoril (January 1990). Bernd Schneider, Zakspeed 891B.



@ by Rainer Nyberg

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Geza Sury

I think I managed to find a picture of Zakspeed's pre-1990 season test. (It looks Le Castellet to me.) Does the car in the picture (Zakspeed 891B-Yamaha) belong to the Grand Prix cars that never raced category? BTW, the website itself looks very interesting!

That sites the proverbial mutts nuts! Just looking at Merzario and questions are already forming... good find!

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by FRWL
I have a photo from Estoril (January 1990). Bernd Schneider, Zakspeed 891B.

Saved it to my hard drive, thanks a lot

Originally posted by ghinzani
That sites the proverbial mutts nuts! Just looking at Merzario and questions are already forming... good find!

Credit must go to the people, who compiled it, Racer.Demon (Mattijs), 'Uechtel', Rafael Reyna and Leo Breevoort in particular.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by fines
Their previous tests at this circuit and at Estoril earlier that month were quite encouraging, so this problem probably occured at the later tests

Pirelli teams (Minardi, Scuderia Italia, Zakspeed, Osella and Eurobrun) were at Estoril in January 1990 from Thursday 11 to Sunday 14. Best times:

• Pierluigi Martini (Minardi) 1'14"65
• Andrea De Cesaris (BMS Dallara) 1'15"63
• Bernd Schnider (Zakspeed) 1'15"80
• Paolo Barilla (Minardi) 1'15"98
• Olivier Grouillard (Osella) 1'16"80
• Roberto Moreno (EuroBrun) 1'17"12
• Emanuele Pirro (BMS Dallara) 1'18"70

Senna's pole position in 1989 Portugal GP was 1'15"46, so all teams (including Zakspeed) scored good times!

Autosprint wrote only few lines about Zakspeed: «very positive times scored by Zakspeed, but its future is still a mistery». The car was white, with number 34; as shown by FRWL in his post.

Ciao,
Guido

(from Autosprint 4/1990, pages 28-30)

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by fines
Zakspeed planned tests for Jan 26-29 at Le Castellet

Autosprint made a very short report of this test (on #6/1990, page 24). Best times, on short circuit (rainy wheater) :

• Eric Bernard (Larrousse) 1'08"86 - 86 laps
• Philippe Alliot (Ligier) 1'09"10
• Aguri Suzuki (Larrousse) 1'09"77 - 125 laps
• Stefano Modena (Brabham) 1'10"30
• Bernd Schneider (Zakspeed) 1'14"40 - 20 laps

It wrote that this was the last F.1 test for Zakspeed, without mentioning anymore info.

Ciao,
Guido

[ghinzani]

Can anyone repost that all white testing image, if legally possible?

[HistoryFan]

why didn' t Zakspeed built own non-turbo-charged engines? Of course it was expensive, but the turbos were even more expensive.

[Peter Morley]

why didn' t Zakspeed built own non-turbo-charged engines? Of course it was expensive, but the turbos were even more expensive.

 

The turbos weren't so expensive if they started with something they already had, such as a version of the Cosworth BD series and added a turbo charger then they already had patterns for the engine block and cylinder head etc.

Something like a Hart turbo engine is one of the cheapest historic F1 engines to run - an engine rebuild is much cheaper than for a Cosworth DFV.

[Michael Ferner]

"The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" - Abraham Lincoln, 1864

Excellent! -

[PeterElleray]

But the Zakspeed 1.5 turbo wasn't based on the BD series block, or head...

[PhantomRaspberryBlower]

I've always been curious about those Zakspeed F1 turbos and whether they were based on a pre-existing design. Martin Schanche ran an enlarged version in his Group C2 Argo and back in the day my Dad asked one of the team guys what the origin of the engine was. He was very firmly informed 'Zakspeed!'.

[Peter Morley]

But the Zakspeed 1.5 turbo wasn't based on the BD series block, or head...

 

True but didn't they have an IMSA engine they had developed for Ford, which was possibly influenced by the BD series?

Even if it was a completely bespoke design it must be considerably cheaper to create a straight 4 than a V engine?

[Tim Murray]

According to Ian Bamsey in The 1000 BHP Grand Prix Cars the Zakspeed turbo F1 engine was a clean-sheet-of-paper design significantly different in many ways from anything they'd produced before. For example, the camshafts were gear-driven (belt drive on the IMSA engine), the block featured Nikasil wet liners (dry liners on the IMSA engine), the stroke:bore ratio on the F1 engine was 0.527:1 compared to 0.789:1 on the IMSA engine, etc.

[BRG]

But the Zakspeed 1.5 turbo wasn't based on the BD series block, or head...

Didn't they start off with a turbo BDA in the Capri?  Was this perhaps a Paddy's broom process where they gradually replaced the head, the block, the crank, the rods, the pistons and so on to end up with a bespoke engine that was still in theory a BDA?

 

In more recent times, Roy Millington did just this with his development of the Cosworth Sierra engine, which is now almost unrecognisable as the Millington Diamond.

Edited by BRG, 20 July 2016 - 10:48.

[PeterElleray]

Was this perhaps a Paddy's broom process where they gradually replaced the head, the block, the crank, the rods, the pistons and so on to end up with a bespoke engine that was still in theory a BDA?

 

In more recent times, Roy Millington did just this with his development of the Cosworth Sierra engine, which is now almost unrecognisable as the Millington Diamond.

No- the formula one engine was a clean sheet of paper design. Would be no surprise if details of combustion chambers, valves etc were carried across, but the two engines are quite different both in size and in detail.

 

Incidentally the Bamsey article also gives the heritage of the IMSA engine as being the 2.3 litre US Ford, ie the big Pinto block. So three completely different 4 cylinder in line turbo engines.

[Geza Sury]

I made an interview with Bernd Schneider during the Blancpain Sprint Series race at the Hungaroring a couple of weeks ago and asked him about that particular test. He said that Zakspeed people had taken over the engines from Yamaha and made certain modifications. Thanks to these, both the performace and the reliability of the engine improved siginicantly. Unfortunately they didn't find any backers, thus failed to make the grid eventually. He thinks that they could've been strong midfield contenders in 1990. He also said that Erich Zakowski refused to release him from his contract after the 1989 season, which is a pity, because Schneider had an offer to join the Mercedes sportscar team. He confirmed he was in talks with Osella as well. There were discussion of both him and Reemtsma parting company with Zakspeed and joining the Italian team. It never happened of course and Osella was sold to Gabriele Rumi eventually.