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The 20th Italian GrandPrix


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#1 Tyrian

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 08:29

I saw this weekend is the 74th edition of the Italian Grandprix and out of curiosity i looked the past races up.
Although, i could make out only 72 past races, which should be 73.
A bit of research on Forix and some books shows that the 19th GP was held in 1949 and in 1950 the race was called 21st GP of Italy.
What the heck happened with the 20th ????

Did we have 2 GP's in 1949 or 1950 ?

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#2 Rob29

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 11:49

1930 seems to be a problem. Book I have says 'see Monza GP' maybe someone decided about 1950 that this was really an 'Italian GP'?

#3 Felix Muelas

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 12:53

We attempted to answer that question a while ago...in February 2000! Take a look and make your mind !
(Long time ago, when thread number was not even 1,000 :eek: (but almost) :lol: ) Considering this one is 60,889...

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 13:21

That was even before someone* pasted me for using the Monkhouse/King-Farlow book as reference...

Note that I posted:

History has a habit of changing the facts. The Monkhouse/King-Farlow book, in its list of Italian GP results, shows:

1930 See Monza GP

There were Monza GPs in 27, 29, 31, 32 & 33 as well, the 1930 race being over 149 miles.
There was no Italian GP in 1929, but they have not put the above reference to that year, so one can draw the conclusion that, while the 62-mile Monza GP of 1929 couldn't count, the longer race of 1930 might qualify in some kind of hindsight review.
In the same way, the South Australian Centenary Grand Prix, held 1.1.37, has become etched into the history books as the 1936 Australian Grand Prix.


Must have been crook that day, got the facts on the AGP all botched! The race was held 26.Dec.1936 and goes into the books as the 1937 race!

#5 Tyrian

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 14:21

Back in 2000 someone already found this one out...LOL
But i still dont get all of it.
Do i have to take the 17th bad number story for serious ?? Cannot believe thats true....

And about the 1930 'double' race, sounds convincable, but are there any flyers or confirmations that the 1947-1948-1949 GP Italy are indeed 17-18-19 confirmed at THAT time ?

Or did one simple counted from 1923 to 1949 and numbered them.

Ray Bell -> I dont get what you mean, what race was held in 1936 and 'booked' in 1937 ?


Greetztz

#6 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 14:38

Originally posted by Tyrian

And about the 1930 'double' race, sounds convincable, but are there any flyers or confirmations that the 1947-1948-1949 GP Italy are indeed 17-18-19 confirmed at THAT time ?


I've got an image of the poster for the 1949 race (in The Legendary Italian Grand Prix by Paolo Montagna) and it simply states:
MONZA 11 sett: 1949 GRAN PREMIO D'EUROPA :rotfl:

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 14:58

Originally posted by Tyrian
.....Ray Bell -> I dont get what you mean, what race was held in 1936 and 'booked' in 1937?


The South Australian Centenary Grand Prix was a special event which formed part of the celebrations of the hundredth year of the state of South Australia, centred on Adelaide of course.

It was held on December 26, 1936.

But at some later time, it was decided (apparently) that there should be some continuity between the Australian Grands Prix races that were held between 1928 and 1935 at Phillip Island and the first of the 'rotating' Grands Prix events held at Bathurst in 1938.

The South Australian event was subsequently entered into the list as the 1937 Australian Grand Prix.

Now, before you ask about 'rotating' I will explain that there are six states in Australia and it was decided that the race had to be shared among the states. It was never held in the same state on consecutive years from 1936 to 1971, with every state being in the cycle from 1959 until the race was consumed by the annual International events that were run only in the eastern states between 1964 and 1969.

There was some subsequent rotation, but not as thorough as had been seen up till 1962.

#8 Felix Muelas

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 15:37

Originally posted by Tyrian
Do i have to take the 17th bad number story for serious ?? Cannot believe thats true....

Obviously you are free to believe what you think fits better ;) I do not have a problem with the 17 but we have "chez moi" (in Spain) the habit of considering 13 as an unlucky number, hence making, for instance, that you will tipically not find Floor number 13 or Room number 13 in a Hotel or a Hospital...or that our motorbike legend Angel Nieto does NEVER mention that number, even if that is exactly the number of World Championships that he won! :eek: He will say : 12 + 1...
Ridiculous? I don´t know. I know IT HAPPENS ;)

#9 Leo

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 16:57

This is my list of the Italian GP
I guess the cancelled 1939 race is the source of the confusion. It was supposed to be the 17th Italian GP and apparantly that really was no lucky number...

Date Class Event Circuit Country TrackLength Winner(Car)
04-09-1921 Libre I Gran Premio d'Italia Brescia Italy 17300 Jules Goux (Ballot 3-Litre)
03-09-1922 Libre II Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 10000 Pietro Bordino (FIAT 804)
09-09-1923 Libre III Gran Premio d'Italia (Also "I Grand Prix d'Europe") Monza Italy 10000 G. Salamano (FIAT 805)
19-10-1924 Libre IV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 10000 Antonio Ascari (Alfa Romeo P2)
06-09-1925 Libre V Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 10000 G. Brilli-Peri (Alfa Romeo P2)
05-09-1926 Libre VI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 10000 L. Charavel (Bugatti T39A)
04-09-1927 Libre VII Gran Premio d'Italia (Also "V Grand Prix d'Europe") Monza Italy 10000 Robert Benoist (Delage 15 S8)
09-09-1928 Libre VIII Gran Premio d'Italia (Also "VI Grand Prix d'Europe") Monza Italy 10000 Louis Chiron (Bugatti T35C)
24-05-1931 GP IX Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 10000 Guiseppe Campari/Tazio Nuvolari (Alfa Romeo Monza)
05-06-1932 GP X Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6860 Tazio Nuvolari (Alfa Romeo P3)
10-09-1933 GP XI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6860 Luigi Fagioli (Alfa Romeo P3)
09-09-1934 GP XII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 4310 Luigi Fagioli/Rudolf Caracciola (Mercedes W25/34)
08-09-1935 GP-EC XIII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6890 Hans Stuck (Auto Union B-type)
13-09-1936 GP-EC XIV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6890 Bernd Rosemeyer (Auto Union C-type)
12-09-1937 GP-EC XV Gran Premio d'Italia Livorno Italy 7218 Rudolf Caracciola (Mercedes W125)
11-09-1938 GP-EC XVI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6993 Tazio Nuvolari (Auto Union D-type)
??-09-1939 GP-EC XVII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6993 RACE CANCELLED
07-09-1947 F1-NC XVIII Gran Premio d'Italia Milan Italy 3447 C.F. Trossi (Alfa Romeo 158)
05-09-1948 F1-NC XIX Gran Premio d'Italia Torino Italy 4800 Jean-Pierre Wimille (Alfa Romeo 158)
11-09-1949 F1-NC XX Gran Premio d'Italia (Also "X Grand Prix d'Europe") Monza Italy 6300 Alberto Ascari (Ferrari 125)
03-09-1950 F1 XXI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6300 Guiseppe Farina (Alfa Romeo 159)
16-09-1951 F1 XXII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6300 Alberto Ascari (Ferrari 375)
07-09-1952 F1=F2 XXIII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6300 Alberto Ascari (Ferrari 500)
13-09-1953 F1=F2 XXIV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6300 Juan Manuel Fangio (Maserati A6-GCM)
05-09-1954 F1 XXV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6300 Juan Manuel Fangio (Mercedes W196)
11-09-1955 F1 XXVI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 10000 Juan Manuel Fangio (Mercedes W196)
02-09-1956 F1 XXVII Gran Premio d'Italia (Also "XVI Grand Prix d'Europe") Monza Italy 10000 Stirling Moss (Maserati 250F)
08-09-1957 F1 XXVIII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Stirling Moss (Vanwall VW/57)
07-09-1958 F1 XXIX Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Tony Brooks (Vanwall VW/57)
13-09-1959 F1 XXX Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Stirling Moss (Cooper T51-Climax)
04-09-1960 F1 XXXI Gran Premio d'Italia (Also "XX Grand Prix d'Europe") Monza Italy 10000 Phil Hill (Ferrari Dino 246)
10-09-1961 F1 XXXII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 10000 Phil Hill (Ferrari Dino 156)
16-09-1962 F1 XXXIII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Graham Hill (BRM P57)
08-09-1963 F1 XXXIV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Jim Clark (Lotus 25-Climax)
06-09-1964 F1 XXXV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 John Surtees (Ferrari 158)
12-09-1965 F1 XXXVI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Jackie Stewart (BRM P261)
04-09-1966 F1 XXXVII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Ludovico Scarfiotti (Ferrari 312)
10-09-1967 F1 XXXVIII Gran Premio d'Italia (Also "XXVII Grand Prix d'Europe") Monza Italy 5750 John Surtees (Honda RA300)
08-09-1968 F1 XXXIX Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Denny Hulme (McLaren M7A-Ford Cosworth)
07-09-1969 F1 XL Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Jackie Stewart (Matra MS80-Ford Cosworth)
06-09-1970 F1 XLI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Clay Regazzoni (Ferrari 312B)
05-09-1971 F1 XLII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5750 Peter Gethin (BRM P160)
10-09-1972 F1 XLIII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5775 Emerson Fittipaldi (Lotus 72D-Ford Cosworth)
09-09-1973 F1 XLIV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5775 Ronnie Peterson (Lotus 72D-Ford Cosworth)
08-09-1974 F1 XLV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5780 Ronnie Peterson (Lotus 72E-Ford Cosworth)
07-09-1975 F1 XLVI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5780 Clay Regazzoni (Ferrari 312T)
12-09-1976 F1 XLVII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Ronnie Peterson (March 761-Ford Cosworth)
11-09-1977 F1 XLVIII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Mario Andretti (Lotus 78-Ford Cosworth)
10-09-1978 F1 XLIX Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Niki Lauda (Brabham BT46-Alfa Romeo)
09-09-1979 F1 L Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Jody Scheckter (Ferrari 312T4)
14-09-1980 F1 LI Gran Premio d'Italia Imola Italy 5000 Nelson Piquet (Brabham BT49-Ford Cosworth)
13-09-1981 F1 LII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Alain Prost (Renault RE30)
12-09-1982 F1 LIII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Rene Arnoux (Renault RE30B)
11-09-1983 F1 LIV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Nelson Piquet (Brabham BT52B-BMW)
09-09-1984 F1 LV Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Niki Lauda (McLaren MP4/2-TAG)
08-09-1985 F1 LVI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Alain Prost (McLaren MP4/2B-TAG)
07-09-1986 F1 LVII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Nelson Piquet (Williams FW11-Honda)
06-09-1987 F1 LVIII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Nelson Piquet (Williams FW11B-Honda)
11-09-1988 F1 LIX Coca Cola Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Gerhard Berger (Ferrari F187/88C)
10-09-1989 F1 LX Coca Cola Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Alain Prost (McLaren MP4/5-Honda)
09-09-1990 F1 LXI Coca Cola Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Ayrton Senna (McLaren MP4/5B-Honda)
08-09-1991 F1 LXII Coca Cola Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Nigel Mansell (Williams FW14-Renault)
13-09-1992 F1 LXIII Pioneer Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Ayrton Senna (McLaren MP4/7A-Honda)
12-09-1993 F1 LXIV Pioneer Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Damon Hill (Williams FW15C-Renault)
11-09-1994 F1 LXV Pioneer Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5800 Damon Hill (Williams FW16B-Renault)
10-09-1995 F1 LXVI Pioneer Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5770 Johnny Herbert (Benetton B195-Renault)
08-09-1996 F1 LXVII Pioneer Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 5770 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F310)
07-09-1997 F1 LXVIII Gran Premio Campari d'Italia Monza Italy 5770 David Coulthard (McLaren MP4/12-Mercedes)
13-09-1998 F1 LXIX Gran Premio Campari d'Italia Monza Italy 5770 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F300)
12-09-1999 F1 LXX Gran Premio Campari d'Italia Monza Italy 5770 Heinz-Harald Frentzen (Jordan 199-Mugen/Honda)
10-09-2000 F1 LXXI Gran Premio Campari d'Italia Monza Italy 5793 Michael Schumacher (Ferrari F1-2000)
16-09-2001 F1 LXXII Gran Premio Campari d'Italia Monza Italy 5793 Juan Pablo Montoya (Williams FW23B-BMW)
15-09-2002 F1 LXXIII Gran Premio Vodafone d'Italia Monza Italy 5793 Rubens Barrichello (Ferrari F2002)
14-09-2003 F1 LXXIV Gran Premio Vodafone d'Italia Monza Italy 5793

#10 Leo

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 17:10

"supporting evidence" ;)

1936 Program:
Posted Image

1950 Program:
Posted Image

#11 Felix Muelas

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 19:06

Excellent list, Leo.

Thanks for it and for the supporting evidence...it gives a further twist to the story...;)

#12 Rob29

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 07:44

To add to confusion..from 1963 Monza yearbook-1939 Italian GP was scheduled for Sep 11,but cancelled in August as circuit not ready. 1940 -17th Italian GP scheduled for Sep 8th,by June circuit still not ready so race moved to Aug 15 at Pescara. Finally cancelled on July 10-due to war.

#13 gdecarli

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 07:49

Originally posted by Leo
11-09-1938 GP-EC XVI Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6993 Tazio Nuvolari (Auto Union D-type)
??-09-1939 GP-EC XVII Gran Premio d'Italia Monza Italy 6993 RACE CANCELLED
11-09-1949 F1-NC XX Gran Premio d'Italia (Also "X Grand Prix d'Europe") Monza Italy 6300 Alberto Ascari (Ferrari 125)

Great!
I think that 1939 GP should have run on the new 6300 m circuits, same used in from 1949-1954. This according to history page on official website:

From www.monzanet.it:

In 1938 an extensive programme of modifications to the racing facilities was put in effect including resurfacing of the road course, pulling down of the two banked curves on the speed track, construction of a new and more capacious central grandstand of reinforced concrete, new pits and service buildings, and renovation of the score board installations for the public. Work was begun after the Italian Grand Prix in mid-September and was completed the following year. On the road circuit the central straight was shifted westward and linked to the grandstand straight by two 90þ bends with 60-metre (646 ft) radii, which were called the 'porphyry bends" due to the stone paving applied.

The new track measured 6,300 metres and was used through 1954. The main changes made to the facilities just before World War II were: the new grandstand, with 2,000 seats; a restaurant on the ground floor and a turret for timers; 30 refuelling pits built of masonry; a monumental track entrance; a number of additional garages; various service buildings added or rebuilt. They could be utilized only during a few testing sessions such as those of the new Alfa Romeo 512 with rear engine and the supercharged 4-cylinder Bianchi 500.

Ciao,
Guido

(I wrote this message before having read Rob29's one!)

#14 fines

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 20:33

Very interesting, all this!

I always thought the new layout of Monza in the fourties had been due to war damage! Every day I learn something new... :)

#15 gdecarli

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 22:08

Originally posted by fines
Very interesting, all this!

I always thought the new layout of Monza in the fourties had been due to war damage! Every day I learn something new... :)

No, I think they modified the track because the old one was too fast (but this is only my opinion, I have never found any evidence about it).
The original track was used from 1922 to 1933, then Florio circuit and many chicanes were built.

Ciao,
Guido

#16 Leif Snellman

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 06:28

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
We attempted to answer that question a while ago...in February 2000! Take a look and make your mind !
(Long time ago, when thread number was not even 1,000 :eek: (but almost) :lol: ) Considering this one is 60,889...

#999! It was the first thread I started! :D

#17 Leif Snellman

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 06:44

Originally posted by fines
I always thought the new layout of Monza in the fourties had been due to war damage! Every day I learn something new... :)

Fines,
You have probably read the same note in Cimarosti's book, page 139 as I have:
"The Monza circuit damaged during the war, was rebuilt in October 1948. It was based on the old road course but with realignment making a new distance of 6.3 km."
And then there is a plan that shows the really curious Curva di Vedano with a 60m radius curve, a short straight and a new 60m radius curve! I has always thought that curve was just a temporary solution after the war. Is the plan from 1939 or 1948? :confused:
Comments!

#18 gdecarli

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 07:58

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
I has always thought that curve was just a temporary solution after the war. Is the plan from 1939 or 1948? :confused:
Comments!

I don't remember exactly because in that years I was somewhere else :)
My sources are maily official website, (already posted) and www.monzasport.it (in Italian) and they both say that works started after Gran Premio d'Italia, September 11th 1938.
Old high speed track was canceled, I think because of safety reason and concrete and stones coming from old banked bends have been used (reduced in tiles) for repaving some section (or the whole? I don't know) of the new circuit. These tiles are still on site on the second bend of Pirelli circuit. Of course this could be made also AFTER the war, but not according my sources.

All works done in 1948 were for rebuild and complete the circuit according to 1938 project, nothing new.

Posted Image
This WRONG map (taken from a post of mine on racingcircuits.net forum) shows something similar to Pirelli circuit at Monza: it's wrong because when Pirelli circuit was built, there was no high speed track and last bend was not the one shown on this map, but it has the two porphiry bends 60° degrees radius.

Posted Image
(Second bend on Pirelli circuit, in contrary direction - from my website, click to enlarge)

Ciao,
Guido

#19 Leif Snellman

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 09:53

The Cimarosti picture:
Posted Image

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#20 gdecarli

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 10:03

Thank you, that's exacty what I was meaning!
(My only problem is that I have no graphical programs here, that's why I posted the wrong map).

Do you have also the complete Monza map? And do Cimarosti has also other maps about Monza?
That's why I want to draw a complete and precise map of Monza, from 1922 to 2000. My only problem is to know exact layout of the old high speed track (it was not perfectly equal to the new one) and of Lesmo bends, as they could have been changed in 1938.

I also wish to know the original 14km plan, but I think that this is too difficult to find!

Ciao,
Guido

#21 Leif Snellman

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 10:10

Yes and yes!
I'll scan them and send them to you.

#22 Leif Snellman

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 10:52

On the road circuit the central straight was shifted westward and linked to the grandstand straight by two 90þ bends with 60-metre (646 ft) radii, which were called the 'porphyry bends" due to the stone paving applied.
Interesting! 60-metre = 646 ft :rotfl:

#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 12:07

Originally posted by gdecarli
.....I also wish to know the original 14km plan, but I think that this is too difficult to find!


Depends...

Did the Italian government, or the Italian military, do topographic mapping in, say, the thirties?

I'm not at all familiar with the dating of this variant of the circuit, but I imagine it was used in the twenties?

If so, there would still be traces visible from the air. Topographic mapping is best done using aerial photographs... and these remain (usually) on file forever in some dusty government storehouse.

From this source you might find what you seek... just find out who was responsible for the aerial photography and how to access them. A whole new world will open to you...

#24 gdecarli

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 13:01

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'm not at all familiar with the dating of this variant of the circuit, but I imagine it was used in the twenties?

I understand what you mean; I'm using this method to try to discover many old tracks. The problem is that 14km layout was only a proposal.
At the end of 1921 it was decided to build a new permanent circuit for replacing the road circuit at Montichiari (Brescia), where the first GP was held. There were many proposals for its location: one of the most probable was near Gallarate, where now is Milano Malpensa Airport, but later they finally decided for Royal Park at Monza.
The project was for a 14 km (8.7 mi) circuit and the first stone was laid at the end of February 1922. Few days later works stopped because of ecological concern (always present at Monza even from its first stone!).
Project was completely revised, the track has ben shortened (but only on paper, as in few days they hadn't built anything yet) to the 10 km layout that we know.

So I think that maybe only Autodromo's office and/or architect's archive still have the original plan, but there is nothing that can be seen on the ground, as nothing has been built!

Ciao,
Guido

(Info from Monza's official website)

#25 fines

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 12:31

Originally posted by Leo
04-09-1921 Libre I Gran Premio d'Italia Brescia Italy 17300 Jules Goux (Ballot 3-Litre)

Another conundrum: when (year) did the Gran Premio di Brescia become the first Gran Premio d'Italia?

#26 gdecarli

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 12:46

Originally posted by fines
Another conundrum: when (year) did the Gran Premio di Brescia become the first Gran Premio d'Italia?

:confused: Why is it a conundrum? First race in Brescia was in 1899, then again 1900, 1904, 1905, 1907 (Coppa Florio), but they weren't titled Gran Premio d'Italia. On my website I have circuit maps and photos about 1907 Coppa Florio.

In September 1921 first Gran Premio d'Italia was organized on Circuito della Fascia d'Oro (Golden Breacket Circuit) at Montichiari, some km south east from Brescia. On this GP Fiat had many troubles and French Ballot won the race. This was due - they said - also to the lack of a permanent circuit in Italy, so it was decided to built one. They chose Monza as new location, so Italian GP went away from Brescia after only one edition and till 1922 only 4 times was hold somewhere else (1937 Livorno - Leghorn, 1947 Milano, 1948 Torino, 1980 Imola).

Ciao,
Guido

#27 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 13:47

Originally posted by gdecarli

First race in Brescia was in 1899, then again 1900, 1904, 1905, 1907 (Coppa Florio), but they weren't titled Gran Premio d'Italia.


To my knowledge the 1905 edition was the first to be called Coppa Florio , the races pior to that were called Coppa Brescia .

#28 fines

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 14:14

Originally posted by gdecarli

:confused: Why is it a conundrum? First race in Brescia was in 1899, then again 1900, 1904, 1905, 1907 (Coppa Florio), but they weren't titled Gran Premio d'Italia.

Nor were they titled Gran Premio di Brescia! There was only one, in 1921.

Originally posted by gdecarli

In September 1921 first Gran Premio d'Italia was organized on Circuito della Fascia d'Oro (Golden Breacket Circuit) at Montichiari, some km south east from Brescia.

That's the point: the 1921 race was not called Gran Premio d'Italia, at least not in period. It was added later to the list, like the 1895-1903 French GPs.

#29 gdecarli

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 14:16

Originally posted by Marcel Visbeen
To my knowledge the 1905 edition was the first to be called Coppa Florio , the races pior to that were called Coppa Brescia .

Well, I mean that 1907 was Coppa Florio, because it was the only one I could recall when I wrote my previous message.
Now I checked better and according to my sources (Quintin Cloud's website included) the first Coppa Florio was held in Brescia in 1904, a then again 1905 and 1907.
1906 edition was canceled because there was no enough police to control all the circuit.
In the same years there were also some other races: i.e. in 1907 Coppa Florio was in September 1st and the following day Coppa della Velocità (Speed Cup) was held and maybe also more minor races.

I don't know exact name of previous races, but Coppa Brescia should be correct, even if it's not to be confused with Corsa Brescia that was held in 1900 aroud Brescia town center. More info, photos and links on my website

Ciao,
Guido

Posted Image
Brescia 1907, Coppa Florio or Coppa della Velocità; click to open photo page

#30 gdecarli

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 14:38

Originally posted by fines
That's the point: the 1921 race was not called Gran Premio d'Italia, at least not in period. It was added later to the list, like the 1895-1903 French GPs.

Sure? I don't think so...

Posted Image Posted Image
(from Monza official website: on the left the original poster, on the right a picture from Gazzetta dello Sport dated September 5th 1921, on which you can hardly read "Gran Premio d'Italia". Unfortunately I found link to Italian pages, but english site now is down).

What are your info?

Ciao,
Guido

#31 fines

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 15:44

Scusa! I was obviously wrong! :blush:

My info? Well, the infamous "popular wisdom"... I can only quote William Court, Power & Glory instantly, but I'm sure there were others... :

#32 Leo

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 22:10

For the record, this is what I have for the races at Brescia. (Please correct errors, if any...)

Date Event Circuit Country TrackLength
04-09-1904 I Coppa Florio Brescia Italy 186088
10-09-1905 II Coppa Florio Brescia Italy 166996
01-09-1907 III Coppa Florio Brescia Italy 60712
06-09-1908 IV Coppa Florio Bologna Italy 52821
19-11-1922 V Coppa Florio Madonie Italy 107998

02-09-1907 I Coppa Velocita di Brescia Brescia Italy 60712

11-09-1921 I Gran Premio Gentlemen Brescia Italy 16939

#33 gdecarli

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 01:16

Originally posted by Leo
For the record, this is what I have for the races at Brescia. (Please correct errors, if any...)

Here following I post a list of all races (cars and motorbike) I know from 1899 to 1925. There could be some more minor ones. All info without reference are from GP Italia history, in Italian. Results links points to Quintin Cloud's website)...
  • March 1899: Verona-Brescia-Mantova-Verona
  • September 1899: Feste automobilistiche (car feasts) that included:
    - September 11th: Brescia-Cremona-Mantova-Verona-Brescia car and tricycle racing. Results
    - Criterium delle motociclette (Motorbike criterium), won by Carlo Maserati (Carcano), I don't know on what circuit
    - Corsa Brescia, around Brescia town center (no more info)
  • September 1900: Convegno automobilistico (car meeting) that included:
    - 5 km speed record, I think on straight from Brescia to Montichiari, but I have no evidence about it
    - September 10th: Brescia-Cremona-Mantova-Verona-Brescia (same as Sept 1899) car and tricycle racing. Results
  • September 1904: Settimana automobilistica (car week), that included:
    - September 4th: Brescia-Cremona-Mantova-Brescia. According to my source it was not titles ad Coppa Florio. Results
  • September 1905: Settimana automobilistica (car week), that included:
    - September 10th: Coppa Florio, on Brescia-Cremona-Mantova-Brescia circuit. Results (According to Quintin, race was on Sept 4th, but it was a Monday and I think it's quite strange to have such an important race on Monday).
    - a power boat race on Garda Lake
    - car exhibition at Crociera di S.Luca, Brescia
After 1904 and 1905 Vincenzo Florio decides to "import" at his home in Sicily this idea and first Targa Florio was held on traditional big Madonie circuit in 1906.
On the contrary, 1906 Settimana automobilistica in Brescia were canceled because - as I have already written on a previous post - of a lack of policemen that should have check such a long track (166 km). In 1907 races weren't organized anymore by people from Brescia, but by Automobil Club Milano and thanks to a new shorter circuit and to 1100 volonteers, two races were held:
  • September 1907:
    - September 1st: Coppa Florio, on Brescia-Castiglione-Lonato-Brescia circuit. Results
    - September 2nd: Coppa della velocità (Speed Cup), on Brescia-Castiglione-Lonato-Brescia circuit. Results
This was the last race in Brescia for a long times. Racing cars were back again in 1921:
  • September 1921, circuito della Fascia d'Oro (Golden Breacket circuit), near Montichiari
    - September 4th, Sunday: Gran Premio d’Italia for cars and planes. Cars and planes raced (of course into separated races! :) ) on the same circuit, but cars in anticlockwise direction and planes in clockwise! Car results
    - September 7th, Wednesday: Chilometro lanciato. I don't know how to translate exactly; it's a race 1 km long with flying starting
    - September 8th, Thursday: Gran Premio delle Vetturette (Voiturette Grand Prix) and Gran Premio d’Italia for planes only. Voiturettes Results
    - September 10th, Saturday: Gran Premio delle Nazioni (Nations Grand Prix), for motorbike
    - September 11th, Sunday: Gran Premio Gentlemen for car and Gran Premio d’Italia for planes only. Voiturettes Results
    - September 12th, Monday: Gran Premio Gentlemen for car up to 2000 cc. Gentlemen were divided into two races in two days because they were too much for one single race. Results
  • June 29th 1923: Gran Premio delle Vetturette (Voiturette Grand Prix), circuito della Fascia d'Oro (Golden Breacket circuit), near Montichiari. Results
  • April 5th 1925: Circuito motoristico di Brescia (Brescia Motor circuit), probably on the same circuit used in 1905. From Nuvolari's website
Then four friends decided that Brescia must have important races again. It was not possible to host Italy GP again, so they decided for something new. So Mille Miglia was born...

This is a small thumbnail that shows ALL circuits together that I posted on racingcircuits.net forum:

Posted Image

On my website (click on thumbnail to open it) I have more info and all maps in details (but Corsa Brescia 1899, I will have in future).

Ciao,
Guido

#34 gdecarli

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 01:20

Originally posted by fines
Scusa! I was obviously wrong! :blush:

Don't worry! I MUST know something about Brescia circuit, as it's the closest to my house, at least until Autodromo di Franciacorta is still under construction!
Even though, until last March I knew nearly nothing about it! :eek:

Ciao,
Guido

#35 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 12:52

I'm affraid this tread is getting a little off subject, but what the heck...

This era is really not my specialty (if I have any, you should look some 80 years further), but I have some info that is different or supplementary to Guidos, undoubtedly the great Brescian expert. I really loved the pictures from the 1907 Coppa Florio b.t.w., have you found out where they were taken yet?

I restick myself to the info I have on the races between 1899 and 1907. It sometimes contradicts the info on Quintin Clouds website aswell:

March 1899: Verona-Brescia-Mantova-Verona



The results I have are:
1. Ettore Bugatti (Prinetti&Stucchi tricycle) 161 km in an average of 39,5 km/h
2. Carlo Biscaretti (De Dion Bouton) over 2 minutes behind

5. Victor Rigal (Phebus tricycle)

Giovanni Agnelli (Phenix) won four-seater class.

- Criterium delle motociclette (Motorbike criterium), won by Carlo Maserati (Carcano), I don't know on what circuit


It was run on the road from Brescia to Orzinuovi.

The race on 10 september 1900 was called Coppa Brescia
In this race Attilio Caffaratti (born 1877 in Pinerolo) was the first killed in an Italian motorrace. Is it known what the location of his fatal crash was?

September 4th: Brescia-Cremona-Mantova-Brescia. According to my source it was not titles ad Coppa Florio.



This race was called Coppa Brescia aswell, and my source has September 5th as date.

The 1905 race was the first to be called Coppa Florio , and my source has September 9th as date.

Furthermore I think you left out the Giro Automobilistico d'Italia of 1901 on purpose because one could hardly call the circuit Brescian, but it went to Brescia aswell.

Please let me know what you think of this info, could my source be correct?

NB Off course the quotes in this post are from Guidos earlier post in this thread.

#36 gdecarli

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 22:44

Originally posted by Marcel Visbeen
I have some info that is different or supplementary to Guidos, undoubtedly the great Brescian expert. I really loved the pictures from the 1907 Coppa Florio b.t.w., have you found out where they were taken yet?

I don't consider myself as a particular expert. The point is that I live some 25 km from Brescia, so I like to discover glorious racing past of my town. After Mille Miglia's death, important racing went away from Brescia and now it's very difficult to believe that it was a capital of car racing in the world.
As regards 1907 photos on my website, I tried to give a look, but I couldn't find anything, now. Maybe ut would be easier to have a 1907 newspaper and to lok for info about De Martino's accident, but it's not easy to find one! :)

I restick myself to the info I have on the races between 1899 and 1907. It sometimes contradicts the info on Quintin Clouds website aswell:

My Italian source have only tricycle winners of few races and they agree with Quintin Clouds. I wonder if tricycle races were something much important that car racing :confused:

Giovanni Agnelli (Phenix) won four-seater class.

Agnelli on something different from a Fiat is a real rare event! :) Well, Fiat wasn't born yet, as it foundation was on July 11th 1899.

It was run on the road from Brescia to Orzinuovi.

Do you have more info about the track? Orzinuovi (some 30 km south-west from Brescia, on the road to Crema and Pavia) is out of all circuits I already know. It was a circuit or only a point-to-point race? If so, it was something like a single long straight

In this race Attilio Caffaratti (born 1877 in Pinerolo) was the first killed in an Italian motorrace. Is it known what the location of his fatal crash was?

Not to me, as it's the first time I heard about.

Furthermore I think you left out the Giro Automobilistico d'Italia of 1901 on purpose because one could hardly call the circuit Brescian, but it went to Brescia aswell.

Well, because on my Italian source there's nothing about it, maybe for the reason you wrote here. I read about Giro somewhere else, but I had no time to give a better read.

Please let me know what you think of this info, could my source be correct?

At that time I was somewhere else, so I can't say if it's right or not. Maybe once I will go to a town library to look for old newspaper...

Ciao,
Guido

#37 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 18:53

Originally posted by gdecarli
I wonder if tricycle races were something much important that car racing :confused:


I was also wondering about the difference in appeal between fourwheel cars and tricycles. The thing is that looking at the times in that period the tricycles usually where faster so I reckon that makes them winners. :|

Do you have more info about the track? Orzinuovi (some 30 km south-west from Brescia, on the road to Crema and Pavia) is out of all circuits I already know. It was a circuit or only a point-to-point race? If so, it was something like a single long straight



The track was just that: the road from Brescia (start) to Orzinuovi (finish). I think it was the only racing in Orzinuovi ever.

Ciao!

#38 gdecarli

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Posted 08 September 2003 - 22:50

Originally posted by Marcel Visbeen
The track was just that: the road from Brescia (start) to Orzinuovi (finish). I think it was the only racing in Orzinuovi ever.Ciao!

Thank you, I will add as soon as possible to Brescia's page on my website :clap:

Ciao,
Guido

#39 gdecarli

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 07:40

Back to XVII GP d'Italia...
I have found also 1938 cover (XVI Italian GP) :

Posted Image

(From Monza official website)

So, this in another evidence about canceled XVII GP in 1939...

Ciao,
Guido

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#40 gdecarli

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 09:45

Originally posted by gdecarli
I also wish to know the original 14km plan, but I think that this is too difficult to find!

Nothing is too difficult... :)
Here it is the original 14 km proposal...

Posted Image

Click to open page on my website, where I wrote some more details. I think my English on that page is quite terrible :eek: , but I hope enough to understand :)

Ciao,
Guido