43 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

It was the last BRM to score a win, ironically on the anniversary of the only BRM driver who perished in one of the Bourne concern's cars having done so. Or, at least, in the same race a year later.

Portent of better things? No... not at all. In fact, that was the P180's last race appearance!

Destiny somehoe ensured that it never took over from the much more successful P160, the car that won the fastest GP ever and then that rain sodden Monaco as a chaser. The car that epitomises BRM in that era, the Yardley-striped car that danced to the tune of such pilots as Seppi and Pedro in the final days of their illustrious careers.

Though the P180 was their last winner, it wasn't their dying gasp, but a milestone that marked their descent into history's great chasm of lost causes. Unable to get it working, with its chisel nose and rear radiator, the team dumped it and reverted to the P160. Should they have done this?

The BRM story is a checkered one, with U-turns abounding. From a V16 they went to a big-bore four, from almost total lack of success they went to World Champions and then back again. But they demand our attention because they were there, because they tried, because they reached out and pursued that success that others never saw.

In the context of that background, the dumping of the P180 parallels the dumping of the H16, but it seems to me that if a Chapman had been behind that car, it might more likely have been like the 72... they made it work, and then it had a long and successful life.

Those who saw them race, were you stirred by their being? Did you hang over the fence hoping that it would finally overtake the P160, bring BRM further glory?

[Gary Davies]

A terrific thread, Ray, with mucho potential. A quick response during a mid-arvo smoko will be almost insultingly inadequate but .... I recall as if it were yesterday hearing of Seppi's sad demise that autumn day in 1971. How horrifying. And, as Dr Lawrence reminds us in the Chapman book, how unnecessary given that had he been served with an oxygen supply and adroit marshalling, he would have survived.

How thrilled I was by Belters' fabulous win at Monaco in 1972, and how sad and agonisingly drawn out was the team's demise as the truly embarrassing Stanley-BRM P207s.

Having grown up in Britain in the 50s and 60s, BRM was, I think, agony and ecstasy to many of us and when they began to find real direction in 1960 and then emerge as a legitimate force at the beginning of 1962, the world seemed a better place. How jingoistic, but what the hell!

Could a Chapman figure have shepherded the P180 to a happier place? I don't know and, since I'm three quarters way through Lawrence's book right now, I'd better not offer an opinion but something tells me that the troubles at Bourne were by then more dire than could have been addressed by the ACBC reality distortion zone.

[ian senior]

Agreed. This IS interesting.

I always thought that the P180 should have worked a treat. Given that the conventional wisdom of the time was to concentrate weight on the rear of the car to aid traction, hanging the radiator out at the back seemed like a good idea. I suspect it was a case of "right car, wrong team". The fact that it never worked properly, or at least failed to improve on the P160, was more likely a case of a team which was trying to run 5 cars with an assortment of disparate drivers simply couldn't give the car enough attention. Surely any other half-decent team (and not necessarily with the likes of a Chapman at the helm) would have made a better fist of it? Concentrating on the P160, which at least was a known quantity, was probably the right thing to do as a short-term measure. It wasn't too good as a long-term measure either, as we now know, but getting off-subject slightly, I also have a soft spot for its successor, the P201. Probably because if I'd been designing an F1 car at the time, that's roughly what it would have looked like!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ian senior
Agreed. This IS interesting.

I always thought that the P180 should have worked a treat. Given that the conventional wisdom of the time was to concentrate weight on the rear of the car to aid traction, hanging the radiator out at the back seemed like a good idea. I suspect it was a case of "right car, wrong team". The fact that it never worked properly, or at least failed to improve on the P160, was more likely a case of a team which was trying to run 5 cars with an assortment of disparate drivers simply couldn't give the car enough attention. Surely any other half-decent team (and not necessarily with the likes of a Chapman at the helm) would have made a better fist of it? Concentrating on the P160, which at least was a known quantity, was probably the right thing to do as a short-term measure. It wasn't too good as a long-term measure either, as we now know, but getting off-subject slightly, I also have a soft spot for its successor, the P201. Probably because if I'd been designing an F1 car at the time, that's roughly what it would have looked like!

The 201's always impressed me too. If the V12s weren't tired and sagging and patched up, and they'd had drivers a bit better than Migault (never really all that special in F1 -- though I'm sure Barry can tell us more about him!), Beltoise (past his best by '74) and Pepsi-Cola (much more at home in sports cars - my copy of the Jim Clark Foundation's report on F1 accidents reckoned Pesca was about the most accident-prone driver...) then I'm sure Mike Pilbeam's chassis could've done Great Things....

The chassis didn't look much bigger or heaver or aerodynamically scruffier than (or indeed all that different to) a Brabham BT44 in many respects - and there was nowt wrong with that!

[ian senior]

Originally posted by petefenelon



The 201's always impressed me too. If the V12s weren't tired and sagging and patched up, and they'd had drivers a bit better than Migault (never really all that special in F1 -- though I'm sure Barry can tell us more about him!), Beltoise (past his best by '74) and Pepsi-Cola (much more at home in sports cars - my copy of the Jim Clark Foundation's report on F1 accidents reckoned Pesca was about the most accident-prone driver...) then I'm sure Mike Pilbeam's chassis could've done Great Things....

The chassis didn't look much bigger or heaver or aerodynamically scruffier than (or indeed all that different to) a Brabham BT44 in many respects - and there was nowt wrong with that!

Had I been somewhat wealthier than the schoolkid I was at the time, and if I had enough readies to float a private F1 team (yes, it could still be done in those days) I would have forced Big Lou,at gun point if necessary, to flog me a P201 minus the engine. I would have stuck a DFV in the back and put Dave Morgan in the cockpit. Oh dreams.......

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by ian senior
Had I been somewhat wealthier than the schoolkid I was at the time, and if I had enough readies to float a private F1 team (yes, it could still be done in those days) I would have forced Big Lou,at gun point if necessary, to flog me a P201 minus the engine. I would have stuck a DFV in the back and put Dave Morgan in the cockpit. Oh dreams.......

  If I'd been a teenage millionaire, I'd have gone with a DFV engined P180. For the first season, I'd have hired a couple of older, experienced development drivers. For the second season, I'd have tried for a GP winner, someone looking for a team where he would be the uncontested number one - like a Peter Revson. Then I'd have hired a young up-and-comer like a Jarier or a Pryce. My new team mightn't have been a world-beater, but I'm sure it would have had better results than BRM.
  Hey, wait a minute...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by m.tanney


  If I'd been a teenage millionaire, I'd have gone with a DFV engined P180. For the first season, I'd have hired a couple of older, experienced development drivers. For the second season, I'd have tried for a GP winner, someone looking for a team where he would be the uncontested number one - like a Peter Revson. Then I'd have hired a young up-and-comer like a Jarier or a Pryce. My new team mightn't have been a world-beater, but I'm sure it would have had better results than BRM.
  Hey, wait a minute...

Ummmm, looking at the tubs, and the designer, wasn't the first Shadow F1 car basically a BRM-DFV?;)
(Oh and Graham had one too.... ;P)

pete

[bournenville]

Hello Mates,


I like this thread a lot but...I believe the car that won at Monaco was the P160B and not the 180.Howden Ganley raced the 180 in that race.It seems that the new car,having so much weight at the rear,understeered a lot.There is a nice article on this car in Motorsport in the January 03 issue.

Ignacio

[fines]

Originally posted by bournenville
Hello Mates,


I like this thread a lot but...I believe the car that won at Monaco was the P160B and not the 180.Howden Ganley raced the 180 in that race.It seems that the new car,having so much weight at the rear,understeered a lot.There is a nice article on this car in Motorsport in the January 03 issue.

Ignacio

Yes, but the thread's title is about the last winner, the P180 in Beltoise's hands at Brands Hatch!;)

[mat1]

Originally posted by bournenville
It seems that the new car,having so much weight at the rear,understeered a lot.There is a nice article on this car in Motorsport in the January 03 issue.

Did it understeer/ I would have expected the opposite.

Concerning BRM in the 70s: it is obvious the development of the engine was the problem; there was hardly any development. I believe Lauda said (regarding the 73 season): the chassis is as good as they come, but the engine simply didn't have the power.

makes me wonder; did they ever contemplate going the DFV route, as a stopgap?

And if they did, why din't they do it?

mat1

[Ray Bell]

Whoa boys... back up the Cosworth bus!

No way should a BRM have a Cossie! No way at all!

And mat1, I'd say the understeer was from lack of traction... probably with the reduced speed in the wet the necessary aerodynamic force that balanced the front with the heavy rear was missing? This would mean a lack of traction at the front, hence understeer...

Thanks, fee-nes for the reminder about which race was their last win.

[mat1]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Whoa boys... back up the Cosworth bus!

No way should a BRM have a Cossie! No way at all!

And mat1, I'd say the understeer was from lack of traction... probably with the reduced speed in the wet the necessary aerodynamic force that balanced the front with the heavy rear was missing? This would mean a lack of traction at the front, hence understeer...

Yes, I suppose that's possible, although it seems to me you get a very unstable kind of understeer.

About the DFV-route: of course, it would have been a tremendous shock for BRM, but on the other hand, it was probably the only way to survival. Anyway, they didn't do it.

mat1

[ian senior]

I seem to remember that when the P180 was announced, there were a number of fibreglass replicas (presumably without the expensive mechanical bits) that were used for display purposes. Probably used more to advertise Marlboro fags rather than for anything else. I recall seeing one at the Donington museum years ago. Any idea how many of these cod-P180s were made and are there any left?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

Whoa boys... back up the Cosworth bus!

No way should a BRM have a Cossie! No way at all!

Damn right, Raymondo!

The engines were what made BRM, well... BRM!!

Strange, really, that the P180 only raced the once in the UK - but at least it did the job on that occasion! Regarding it's development, presumably losing Southgate to Shadow can't exactly have helped matters. As Pete mentioned earlier, the DN3 was his next design and you can see similarities twixt the two, especially the nose treatment...





I doubt, however, that if there were funamental problems in the P180's chassis design that Chunky could have made much difference. You only have to remember the Lotus 80...

Oh, and I too loved the P201!

Twinny

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Ummmm, looking at the tubs, and the designer, wasn't the first Shadow F1 car basically a BRM-DFV?;)
(Oh and Graham had one too.... ;P)

pete

I never thought of this before. Interesting!

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Twin Window

Oh, and I too loved the P201!

Twinny

I loved the original, also liked the Motul color scheme. However when it became the Stanley-BRM and then the 1975version, well maybe it was time for BRM to pass on, just as when the alternative to having no Lotus was to have a Pacific-Lotus, I'd rather opt for memories............

[f1steveuk]

I'm still new but I am begining to see how this all works!
Southgate's P180 was always looked at as a failure, but perhaps he didn't have the driver to make it sing? Example, Gardner's 005/006 Tyrrell flew with Sewart, because it was designed around him, Jody and Patrick struggled a bit with it. Now I think I am right that Roger Williamson was given the unloved P180 at his first F1 test, and was bloody quick (under the lap record, enough to get Teddy Mayer looking for a contract) and was then handed the P180 (whereon he went quicker), my point is he didn't seem to have a problem with the rear weight bias, maybe it suited him, but not the likes of J-P B etc? And BRM's never seemed at home on anything other than Firestones.

Some years ago I was in talks with John Jordan (as in Jordan Fruit bars etc), who had tons of BRM stuff, and ran the quasi BRM P210 for Teddy Pilette amongst others, (Jordan BRM, that sounds familiar!!) and perhaps even a later model? What ever happened to that lot?

[f1steveuk]

I'm still new but I am begining to see how this all works!
Southgate's P180 was always looked at as a failure, but perhaps he didn't have the driver to make it sing? Example, Gardner's 005/006 Tyrrell flew with Sewart, because it was designed around him, Jody and Patrick struggled a bit with it. Now I think I am right that Roger Williamson was given the unloved P180 at his first F1 test, and was bloody quick (under the lap record, and enough to get Teddy Mayer looking for a contract) and was then handed the P180 (whereon he went quicker), my point is he didn't seem to have a problem with the rear weight bias, maybe it suited him, but not the likes of J-P B etc? And BRM's never seemed at home on anything other than Firestones. Funny how the similarities between the BRM and the Shadow DN1 should become evident.

Some years ago I was in talks with John Jordan (as in Jordan Fruit bars etc), who had tons of BRM stuff, and ran the quasi BRM P210 for Teddy Pilette amongst others, (Jordan BRM, that sounds familiar!!) and perhaps even a later model? What ever happened to that lot?

[f1steveuk]

Look I do know how it works!! I posted one reply, honest, how the bank machine doesn't do that!

[VDP]

For the tyrrell don't forget that the regualtion change in 1974,
1 Different quality of tyre
2 the rear wing were moved forward

Robert

[D-Type]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Look I do know how it works!! I posted one reply, honest, how the bank machine doesn't do that!

If you look in the bottom right hand corner of your own posts, instead of 'Report this post to hosts' it says 'Edit/delete post'.






It took me three months to notice that

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by D-Type


It took me three months to notice that

[arttidesco]

I couldn't find an unusual retirements thread so have resurrected this one because it concerns Reine Wisells retirement from the 1972 International Gold Cup, an event which shockingly does not appear to have made the esteemed pages of Motor Sport.

Reine is listed as driving P180/2 qualified 7th and DNF with a 'broken finger' on this racingsportscars.com link.

Does anyone have any further indication of how or when this unfortunate injury came about ?

Relevant answers maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

[Ray Bell]

How did he get the broken finger?

Max Stewart retired from a race at Watkins Glen (or did he DNS because he did it in practice... yes, I think that was the situation) as he got his thumb in the way of a spinning steering wheel's spoke when he hit a fence.

[arttidesco]

How did he get the broken finger?

[RCH]

How did he get the broken finger?

Max Stewart retired from a race at Watkins Glen (or did he DNS because he did it in practice... yes, I think that was the situation) as he got his thumb in the way of a spinning steering wheel's spoke when he hit a fence.

Going totally off topic. "Rally Driver's Thumb" as it's sometimes described. One of the useful tips my father taught me when learning to drive. Never wrap your thumb around the steering wheel rim.

[kayemod]

Going totally off topic. "Rally Driver's Thumb" as it's sometimes described. One of the useful tips my father taught me when learning to drive. Never wrap your thumb around the steering wheel rim.

Staying resolutely off-topic, Roger Becker used to take employees for a spin around the Hethel test track before they were passed as competent enough to drive Company vehicles. He was most insistent about the non-wrapping of thumbs, but in the Lotus case, I think this was more about sustaining nasty cuts from the rather cheap alloy-spoked wheels that all our cars were fitted with. You tell young people today about the risks we faced back then, and they won't believe you, they won't...

[MCS]

I couldn't find an unusual retirements thread so have resurrected this one because it concerns Reine Wisells retirement from the 1972 International Gold Cup, an event which shockingly does not appear to have made the esteemed pages of Motor Sport.

Reine is listed as driving P180/2 qualified 7th and DNF with a 'broken finger' on this racingsportscars.com link.

Does anyone have any further indication of how or when this unfortunate injury came about ?

Relevant answers maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

Startline crash. Peterson ran into the back of one of his rear wheels and the BRM spun round, stopping just after the end of the pits on the inside of the track. Driver got out of the car and was clearly struggling with pain in one hand/finger. Peterson also retired, having arrived at the circuit that morning with fellow Ferrari sportscar driver Tim Schenken to practice for the race - they had won at the Nurburgring 1000kms the day before in their 312PB. Peterson had been fastest in the wet session in the 721X.

I have only ever seen one picture of the accident - on the Oulton Park Scoreboard thread, I think.

So, two entries for the P180 in the UK that season, or were there three? Ganley was entered at the Silverstone International Trophy (before Oulton) but didn't appear - was he entered in a P180, or a P160 or even a P153?

[arttidesco]

Startline crash. Peterson ran into the back of one of his rear wheels and the BRM spun round, stopping just after the end of the pits on the inside of the track. Driver got out of the car and was clearly struggling with pain in one hand/finger. Peterson also retired, having arrived at the circuit that morning with fellow Ferrari sportscar driver Tim Schenken to practice for the race - they had won at the Nurburgring 1000kms the day before in their 312PB. Peterson had been fastest in the wet session in the 721X.

Most kind MCS

[charles r]

 

Definitely a family resemblance. Tony Southgate always designed great looking cars.

[Nemo1965]

Did it understeer/ I would have expected the opposite.

Concerning BRM in the 70s: it is obvious the development of the engine was the problem; there was hardly any development. I believe Lauda said (regarding the 73 season): the chassis is as good as they come, but the engine simply didn't have the power.

makes me wonder; did they ever contemplate going the DFV route, as a stopgap?

And if they did, why din't they do it?

mat1

 

Lauda said a bit more. When I think of BRM, I always think of Lauda's criticism of the management of BRM when he drove for them in  1973. In his first autobiography (published in 1977) he compares Ferrari (not the best managed of teams back then!) with Ferrari: 'Ferrari was (...) bigger, more serious and to be taken serious as the somewhat comical enterprise of BRM, where the old Louis Stanley drew cars and people out of high hats, like a magician does with rabbits. Often he performed the same trick with money, but that was becoming more and more infrequent (...)'

Elsewhere in the book: 'The management of BRM lacked not only money, but also intelligence and class.' And he calls Stanley 'ein seltsamer Kauz'. Which means something like: a strange owl. There is also an anecdote that halfway the season Lauda pleads with Stanley to improve the engine and then Stanley tells him the fib they 'have found 25 extra HP in the exhaust-system.' Which, of course, never materialized. As Lauda writes: 'Stanley had just gone for a wee and had imagined the story about the exhaust.'

 

In other words: even in 1973 BRM had a lot of potential... but...

Edited by Nemo1965, 13 February 2018 - 08:35.

[backfire]

Just a silly aside to all this.

I remember being at Hoar Cross Hall one day in the seventies, which was well known for it's somewhat dubious Medieval Banquets and home to one William Bickerton-Jones, or Bill "Gingerly" Jones as known to the motor racing world. Bill, after his own racing career (his speed inspired his nick name), turned entrant with an old underfunded Brabham for poor Chris Meek. His next foray into motorsport was going to be F1, so he took me into the basement of the hall to show me the cars - two engineless BRM P153s (still in Yardley colours, if my memory serves me correctly). Bill explained that he was buying two Berta V8 sportscar engines from Argentina to power his BRMs for his World Championship attempt. I heard no more about it and next time I saw Bill he was supporting his son in a far more successful and realistic effort in FF 2000.  

Edited by backfire, 13 February 2018 - 11:24.

[rl1856]

BRM....British Racing Misfits ?  A saga befitting a Monty Python movie ?  A bunch of British Upper Class Twits decide to go racing ?   And I am a FAN eagerly awaiting V4 !    

 

I have long thought that their fate was sealed when LS opted for quantity instead of quality after receiving substantial infusions of cash from Yardley, and then Marlboro.   Had he concentrated on 2 cars from 1970 forward, I suspect results would have been much different.    I recall reading that BRM performance from 73 forward seemed to start the season ok then slowly decline as the season went on.  I suspect they used the off-season effectively by building/rebuilding cars and engines, then were stretched very thin by having to maintain 3-4-5 cars during the season.   

 

RE: Tyrell (mentioned in thread).  There is an extensive interview with Derek Gardner on line somewhere in which he dissects the design and performance of the 005/006 and relays some of his thoughts in designing the 007.  

 

Exec summary....the 005/006 started well at the end of 1972.  It wavered a bit in early 73, and was not fully competitive with the 72 or M23 (in Derek's opinion).  Before Monaco and Belgium he decided to move the rear wing further back which fundamentally changed the handling and balance of the car to great effect.  He purposely designed the 005/006 to be a "twitchy" car requiring a delicate touch from Stewart and Cevert.  He was confident of their ability to utilize the combination of trickier handling but a higher absolute limit.   For 74, the rear wing had to be moved forward and Scheckter/Depailler were not S/C...hence their relative performance.   The 007 on the other hand was designed to be easier to drive, and faster in a straight line, but possibly with a lower ultimate limit.    IMO Gardner designed the cars to match the perceived abilities of the driver(s).  

[john aston]

BRM....British Racing Misfits ?  A saga befitting a Monty Python movie ?  A bunch of British Upper Class Twits decide to go racing ?   And I am a FAN eagerly awaiting V4 !    

 

 

 I think that's an unfair jibe . Whatever they were, and I'd never stigmatise anybody for being born into any class , they did win Grands Prix and  they did produce a sublime looking and sounding car in (inter alia) the P153/160 , with an engine made by themselves instead of buying  a two grand down and a change of address DFV . And unlike nearly all of his peers 'Lord ' Stanley got off his well padded backside and did something for drivers' medical welfare.  

[rl1856]

 I think that's an unfair jibe . Whatever they were, and I'd never stigmatise anybody for being born into any class , they did win Grands Prix and  they did produce a sublime looking and sounding car in (inter alia) the P153/160 , with an engine made by themselves instead of buying  a two grand down and a change of address DFV . And unlike nearly all of his peers 'Lord ' Stanley got off his well padded backside and did something for drivers' medical welfare.  

 

My comments were in jest.  They accomplished a great deal over a decade.  And I *am* a fan.   Personally, I think the c65-67 P261 and the P83 were among the best looking single seaters raced back in the day.   On the other hand, decisions made by the early ERA group and then LS certainly cause one to at least scratch their head.

[Doug Nye]

[MCS]

Just a silly aside to all this.

I remember being at Hoar Cross Hall one day in the seventies, which was well known for it's somewhat dubious Medieval Banquets and home to one William Bickerton-Jones, or Bill "Gingerly" Jones as known to the motor racing world. Bill, after his own racing career (his speed inspired his nick name), turned entrant with an old underfunded Brabham for poor Chris Meek. His next foray into motorsport was going to be F1, so he took me into the basement of the hall to show me the cars - two engineless BRM P153s (still in Yardley colours, if my memory serves me correctly). Bill explained that he was buying two Berta V8 sportscar engines from Argentina to power his BRMs for his World Championship attempt. I heard no more about it and next time I saw Bill he was supporting his son in a far more successful and realistic effort in FF 2000.  

 

He funded Chris Meek?  Really?

 

And he had two P153s?  I would love to know more.

 

Please elaborate! 

[Mallory Dan]

He funded Chris Meek?  Really?

 

And he had two P153s?  I would love to know more.

 

Please elaborate! 

Was his son, Gavin Jones?

[backfire]

To answer the last two posts. Yes Gavin was his son. William Bickerton-Jones raced a Lotus Elite and then bought a rather elderly Brabham F2 (BT10 I think) which he entered for Chris Meek, but I don't know the financial arrangements.  I don't think he did anything with the BRMs in the end, and they probably stayed in the cellar at Hoar Cross Hall until he sold them. Bill died about ten years ago in his nineties.

[raceannouncer2003]

 

2012 Monaco Historics...Howden Ganley with the BRM P180.  I believe he told me that at the 1972 Canadian Grand Prix, he tried the P180, but didn't like it and handed it over to Canadian Bill Brack.

 

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 20 February 2018 - 06:53.

[john winfield]

2012 Monaco Historics...Howden Ganley with the BRM P180.  I believe he told me that at the 1972 Canadian Grand Prix, he tried the P180, but didn't like it and handed it over to Canadian Bill Brack.

 

Vince H.

 

Interesting, Vince, and I see that Howden and Peter Gethin in P160s comfortably outqualified the P180s of Beltoise and Brack.

 

I'd forgotten what a short, unhappy life the P180 had, and what good service the P160 gave. Even in 1974 Francois Migault's P160E was miles quicker at Brands Hatch than the P201s of JPB and Henri Pescarolo.

 

My memory of the P180 is coloured by that freakish but very enjoyable win in the non-championship Victory Race, October 1972.

[MCS]

I think I am correct in saying that it's handling wasn't popular with the drivers and that Gethin only raced it once (Spain, because I have seen a picture somewhere) and Ganley and Wisell barely used it. Beltoise raced it the most but only towards the end of the 1972 season.

[JtP2]

Tr the uop Shadow. What no 3 diemensional curves from sheet aluminium?

[Mallory Dan]

Howden G was less than delighted with the P180 apparently, he says in his book