38 replies to this topic

[Reinhard Windeler]

I don't know whether any one of the TNFers ever wondered about the correctness of the race time usually given for the winner of the 1977 Canadian Grand Prix . A time of exactly 1 hour and 40 minutes (= 100 minutes) up to a hundredth of a second seems pretty unlikely. And it is!

The actual times were published (exclusively?) by German monthly magazine "rallye racing" (vol. 11/1977, p. 32) and read as follows:
1. Jody Scheckter 1:41.10,764
2. Patrick Depailler 1:41.17,539 (+ 6,775)
3. Jochen Mass 1:41.26,528 (+ 15,764)
4. Alan Jones 1:41.57,456 (+ 46,692)
5. Patrick Tambay 1:42.14,019 (+ 1.03,255)

In 1995 I suggested this information to Paul Sheldon but he chose not to use it in vol. 10 of his "Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing". Maybe this is the place to put the record straight.

I hope pedantry is in fact considered a virtue.

[Don Capps]

This started with Autosport/Autocourse and seems etched in stone and impervious to being changed. However....

[Udo K.]

Not only Sheldon gives the 1:40 dead result. Ulrich Schwab in his German annual Grand Prix 1977
states the same figures as given in the black book:
1. Scheckter 1:40'00.0
2. Depailler 1:40'06.77
3. Mass 1:40'15.76
4. Jones 1:40'46.69
5. Tambay 1:41'03.26

So these times differ a lot from the ones given in rallye racing. Not only the time for the winner, all the others are different as well.

Which ones are the correct ones?

[jarama]

Other sources:


"sport-auto" (french magazin) & "el año automóvil" (Spanish edition of "l'année automobile")
1st, 1h40' ("sport-auto")
1st, 1h40'00"000 ("el año automóvil")
2nd, + 6"775
3rd, + 8"989
4th, + 30"928
5th, + 1'16"563

"El Gráfico - La Fórmula 1 en 1977" (Argentinean publication)
1st, 1h40'
2nd, + 6"775
3rd, + 8"999 (typo?)
4th, + 30"928
5th, + 36"563

"velocità & rally 77" (Italian yearbook)
1st, 1h40'
2nd, + 6"775
3rd, + 8"989
4th, + 30"928
5th, + 36"563


Carles.

[Leif Snellman]

Motor Racing Year, 1978 edition:

1 Scheckter 1:40:00
2 Depailler 1:40:06.775
3 Mass 1:40:15.764
4 Jones 1:40:46.692
5 Tambay 1:41:03.255

Automobile Year
1 Scheckter 1:40:00.000
2 Depailler 1:40:06.775
3 Mass 1:40:08.989
4 Jones 1:40:30.928
5 Tambay 1:41:16.563

[Frank de Jong]

Prüller 1977: 1.40.00,000, equal to earlier posters.
The Grand Prix of Canada, Gerald Donaldson, 1977 result: another 1.40.00,000 etc.

[gdecarli]

What about average speed?
According to Quentin Cloud fastest speed wad set by Andretti, 1'13"299, 194.362 km/h.
Race is 80 laps - 316.590 km long, so each lap is 3957.375 m long. If you re-calculate (for a verify) average speed of fastest lap, it is 194.3621332 km/h, so this calcula should be correct.

Let's go now to race time: 1.40'00"000 means 189.954 km/h, while 1.41'10"794 means 187.739 km/h.

Can this help to solve the question?
Of course I don't know, because both time race and average speed could be wrong!

Ciao,
Guido

[Reinhard Windeler]

Guido,
the fastest lap of the race set by Mario Andretti isn't indicative of the race time because eventual winner Jody Scheckter had been lapped by Andretti at around lap 56. At half-distance the American had been 54 seconds ahead of the South African which means on average he was 1,35 s faster. Remember the Lotus "wing cars" driving circles around their opposition in 1977?

According to Heinz Prüller's Grand Prix Story 77 Scheckter's fastest lap was 1.14,374 min.

To cover 80 laps in exactly 100 minutes his average lap time would have been 1.15,000, a time only 0,626 s slower than his best time. I think that would have been difficult to achieve.

Based on the higher race time Scheckter's average lap time was 1.15,884. This corresponds with his fastest lap time quite nicely, I think.

So the question is: Whom do we trust? The vast majority of publications with an odd winner's time or the lonesome shouter called "rallye racing" with a credible race time? I definitely go for the latter.

In case someone is following my suggestion: "rallye racing" states the winner's speed at 187,722 km/h (= 116,64 mph) based on a circuit length of 3,957 km. If the speed is calculated on a circuit length of 2,459 miles the speed is 116,656 mph (= 187,739 km/h as stated by "gdecarli" in his post).

[gdecarli]

I use Andretti fastest track only to check track lenght, not Scheckter winning time, but your post is quite interesting and I think too "rallye racing" is right!

Ciao,
Guido

[Ray Bell]

Motoring News also had the dodgy 'rounded off to the nearest minute and subtract one' time...

How do I know this? Well, I've faithfully copied it from that newspaper into Racing Car News! I wonder if I questioned it at the time?

[Leif Snellman]

Average speed:

Ulrich Schwab: 189.936 km/h
Motor Racing Year: 116.67 mph/187.76 km/h
Peter Higham (Guinness Guide) : 118.032 mph
Mike Lang: 118.032mph/189.954 km/h
Automobile year: 116.650 mph/187.722 km/h

[Leif Snellman]

Analysis:

According to FIA yellow book Mosport was 3.957 km/2.459 mile
(It can easly be proved that the 3.957 km is the original number and the length in miles is rounded off and not the other way round.)

80 x 3.957 km = 316.56 km (confirmed by Lang)
1 mile = 1609.344 m

With a time of 1:40:00.000 the average speed should be 189.936 km/h / 118.021 mph

With a time of 1:41:10.764 the average speed should be 187.723 km/h / 116.645 mph

Compare that to the given average speeds and make your own conclusions.

[Vitesse2]

Motor Sport also has 1:40'00.000". Report by Alan Henry, probably working with Andrew Marriott, who'd have done the Motoring News report.

[Fransz]

Aahh the 1977 Canadian Grand Prix. My 1st F1 race.

I was only ten so I can't confirm the timing LOL. The only pictures I still have in my head of that race are Mario Andretti leading, Scheckter winning and Gilles Villeneuve in the Ferrari. Thanks for bringing the memories back.

[quintin cloud]

I was looking in the FIA's "The Official 2001-2002 Formula 1 Record Book" and it lists the result as 1H40m00s000

[2F-001]

For what it's worth, Peter Higham (edition 1) gives the same times as those that Udo listed (sourced from Ulrich Schwab) and the 'Motor Racing Year' figures. Curious that two of these wholly different sets of first-six times have the same time gaps between each place. I thought that might give a clue as to what's happened here, but Leif's and Jarama's findings make this even more puzzling!

(Presumably, some reporters had a ''winner's time'' and the time gaps to the places and then did their own arithmetic).

[tyrrellp34]

I think it was also that race, when Mass and Hunt hat a special kind of missunderstanding and both have had a collision

right?

[Reinhard Windeler]

This

Originally posted by LB
Oh and James Hunt punched a marshall.

brought me back to this thread.
The 1977 Canadian Grand Prix was an eventful one.

Originally posted by tyrrellp34
I think it was also that race, when Mass and Hunt hat a special kind of missunderstanding and both have had a collision

right?

Yes, that incident triggered Hunt's punch.
And then there was Ian Ashley's enormous accident during practice, a hot contestant for "Most spectacular crash in Grand Prix history without terminal or permanent damage to the driver" (that could start a long thread in its own right, I suppose...).

Returning to the actual concern of this thread, I would like to further strengthen my cause by posting the following times for the 2nd to 5th placed drivers:
(Legend:
A = fastest lap according to Prüller
B = average lap time based on usual race time (1:40.00,000 + gaps)
C = average lap time based on "rallye racing" data
D = difference between A and B)

A: 1.14,416 B: 1.15,084 C: 1.15,969 D: 0,668 Depailler (2nd)
A: 1.14,358 B: 1.15,197 C: 1.16,081 D: 0,839 Mass (3rd)
A: 1.15,077 B: 1.15,583 C: 1.16,468 D: 0,506 Jones (4th)
A: 1.14,677 B: 1.15,790 C: 1.16,675 D: 1,113 Tambay (5th)

Significant is the small difference between A and B in the case of Jones. In my view it supports the accuracy of the times given by "rallye racing" beyond reasonable doubt.

So I think the "rallye racing" times are to be put into the Formula 1 statistics as verified data - at least on those websites which are operated by members of the TNF.

Anyone willing to get rid of the 1:40.00,000-thing?

[conjohn]

Originally posted by Reinhard Windeler

Anyone willing to get rid of the 1:40.00,000-thing?

I already have, in my personal, off-line Access database.

[tyrrellp34]

After the Ashley shunt Lauda withdraw from that race in Mosport. He said in his book: >> The accident of Ashley shows me how dangerous that track is and finally it was another reason to go home<<

[dpardyrx7]

Originally posted by Fransz
Aahh the 1977 Canadian Grand Prix. My 1st F1 race.

I was only ten so I can't confirm the timing LOL. The only pictures I still have in my head of that race are Mario Andretti leading, Scheckter winning and Gilles Villeneuve in the Ferrari. Thanks for bringing the memories back.

Actually Gilles Villeneuve made his Canadian debut at the 1978 GP in a Ferrari - which he won!!!!

[nigel red5]

dpardyrx7,
Correction... Villeneuve drove the 1977 Canadian GP in a Ferrari and retired 4 laps from home with a driveshaft failure.....

On a side note. Was there any tv coverage of this race broadcast anywhere? (maybe ORF). Reinhard Windeler mentions about Heinz Pruller`s yearbook giving results of the race, and he`d been commentating for the ORF on F1 that year and years before as well....
Just wondering......as it`s a race i`m itching to see.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
Average speed:

Ulrich Schwab: 189.936 km/h
Motor Racing Year: 116.67 mph/187.76 km/h
Peter Higham (Guinness Guide) : 118.032 mph
Mike Lang: 118.032mph/189.954 km/h
Automobile year: 116.650 mph/187.722 km/h

Autosprint # 41/1977 (race report) : 116.650 mph/187.722 km/h (same as Automobile year)

Ciao,
Guido

[Fransz]

Originally posted by nigel red5
dpardyrx7,
Correction... Villeneuve drove the 1977 Canadian GP in a Ferrari and retired 4 laps from home with a driveshaft failure.....

I knew the guy I saw driving around Mosport wasn't an imposter.

Also, HERE is a link with some info.

[Roger Clark]

It seems to me that Reinhard and others have done more than enough to demonstrate that the 100min time must be wrong. That leaves two problems:

(1) where did the 1 hour 40 min time come from? It seems to have been reported in a large number of different contemorary publications, in different countries. It is difficult to escape the idea that it must have been officially announced, presumably by the organisers.

I don't understand Don Capps' assertion (post #2) that it started with Autosport/Autocourse.

(2) how do we know that the "rallye racing" time is correct? (single source and all that)

[Reinhard Windeler]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
How do we know that the "rallye racing" time is correct? (single source and all that)

For reasons of probability and because according to contributions to this thread there are some sources (Automobile year, Motor Racing Year, Autosprint ) which at least give the corresponding speed (187,722 km/h resp. 116,65 mph).

[Leif Snellman]

A possible scenario:
So, someone forgot to wind up CSI's official Mickey Mouse watch before the race.
Just after the race when that fact was realized the timekeeper said:
"Ok, let's say that the race lasted 1h 40 minutes for the winner for now and give the relative times from that."
Later when they got time the 1:41.10,764 could be deducted from adding the lap times.

[Ray Bell]

Another likely scenario...

A newspaper journalist rushing to get his story away simply put that 'near enough is good enough' time into his story and it got copied while everyone was waiting for final results to come out?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Reinhard Windeler

For reasons of probability and because according to contributions to this thread there are some sources (Automobile year, Motor Racing Year, Autosprint ) which at least give the corresponding speed (187,722 km/h resp. 116,65 mph).

Motor Racing Year had 187.76, as did Motor Sport.

[Allen Brown]

I've checked with Bob Brockington, Mosport Track Historian, who tells me that "I have the official results book issued by the organizers and it states that the race took 1 hour, 40 minutes flat".

I've asked him if he can find the original timing reports anywhere in Mosport's archives.

Allen

[Gerr]

Rob Walker's report in Road & Track ( Jan. '78 ) had the winner's speed average at 116.67 mph over 196.72 miles ( 80 laps of 2.459 miles circuit ). Walker was travelling with the Wolf team. Was he the team's timekeeper ?

In the report Mario Andretti is critical of the official timekeeping, claiming there was a problem at Mosport ( off at least 0.3 seconds in qualifying ) and at the USGP.


However Jon Thompson wrote in the March '78 R&T ( in the season review ) that Scheckter's winning average speed was 118.03 mph.

[ReWind]

The other night I got a phone call from Jochen von Osterroth, the German journalist who was responsible for the race report in "rallye racing". Although unfortunately he hasn't kept any records from 1977 he told me he remembered the press release at the Canadian GP had been scanty. An average speed and the gaps had been given but no detailed race time. If a race time had been released at all then almost certainly not in a "1:40.00,000" manner but at best as "1h 40 min" without further figures. As JvO said: The organisation of a Grand Prix in those days wasn't the same as today but a rather shirt-sleeved affair.

JvO also does remember he walked up to the timekeepers to get more information just because the press release was incomplete. What he does not remember exactly, alas, is the crucial thing: How did he get the 1:41.10,764 time? He doesn't rule out that perhaps he calculated this time by himself from the race distance and the given speed. But he claims it is more probable that it were in fact the timekeepers who gave him this time at his request.

That leads to me to this

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I've checked with Bob Brockington, Mosport Track Historian, who tells me that "I have the official results book issued by the organizers and it states that the race took 1 hour, 40 minutes flat".

I've asked him if he can find the original timing reports anywhere in Mosport's archives.

Allen

Allen - can you intensify (or renew) your query?

[oldtimer]

Another question: Could they measure lap times to 1/1000 second in 1977?

[conjohn]

Oh yes, I have personal knowledge from as far back as 1973 in Sweden - and this was probably not the first time...

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by ReWind
Allen - can you intensify (or renew) your query?

Just did.

[maxie]

Originally posted by oldtimer
Another question: Could they measure lap times to 1/1000 second in 1977?

Yet another question: Since when did F1 get the 1/1000th timing?

[ReWind]

Originally posted by maxie
Since when did F1 get the 1/1000th timing?

First Formula 1 World Championship race with 1/1000th timing must have been the 1971 United States Grand Prix at Watkins Glen.

But the same year at the unique Questor Grand Prix at Ontario Motor Speedway in California 1/1000th timing had already been used. But that wasn't a pure F1 race but a combined F1/F5000 affair (although duly won by a proper F1 Ferrari with the best F5000 car no higher than 7th).

First year with 1/1000th timing at all WDC races was 1982.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by ReWind
... Allen - can you intensify (or renew) your query?

ReWind

I just got another email from Bob saying 'No luck finding the Chief Timekeeper yet. She seems to have moved away from Toronto. Will keep looking for her.'

This lead may be going cold.

Allen

[ReWind]

Allen - thanks for trying .

I'm afraid we will never know for sure .