26 replies to this topic

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I'm having a debate about left foot braking with some people on another F1 board, and here's what one guy said:

"Sorry, Guller...I do respect your opinions most of the time, but when you're wrong, you're wrong. As early as the late '60s, Mark Donohue talked to F1 drivers who were left-foot braking, clutch or no clutch. The heel-and-toe method of driving had virtually disappeared from Grand Prix racing by the end of the '60s. Grand Prix turbo cars, like any other turbocharged racing cars, required that the revs be kept up (right foot on throttle) while the car was being slowed with the brakes (left foot braking) to keep plenum pressure up and minimize turbo lag. Rather than following the introduction of semi-auto gearboxes, left foot braking in turbocars was the change in driving technique that led to the development of gearboxes that didn't need a clutch. This was clearly NOT a chicken and egg situation; drivers needed to be able to shift without using their feet at all, and because they also needed to keep their hands on the steering wheel, this led to the paddle operated systems of today."

I argue that widespread left foot braking didn't come into F1 until 1990ies, with semi-automatic gearboxes, and certainly didn't come in 1970ies. Who's full of it, me or him?

[fines]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller
The heel-and-toe method of driving had virtually disappeared from Grand Prix racing by the end of the '60s.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller


I argue that widespread left foot braking didn't come into F1 until 1990ies, with semi-automatic gearboxes, and certainly didn't come in 1970ies. Who's full of it, me or him?

Widespread use maybe - but what about the 1974 version of the Lotus queer-box in the Lotus 76?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


Widespread use maybe - but what about the 1974 version of the Lotus queer-box in the Lotus 76?

Yeah, I brought it up, Chapman experimented with Peterson, but if anything, this example shows how left foot braking wasn't viable in that era.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller


Yeah, I brought it up, Chapman experimented with Peterson, but if anything, this example shows how left foot braking wasn't viable in that era.

It's a good point. I think the reason why left foot braking is now widespread is because gearboxes have been semi/fully automatic in F1 since 1989, so now it is easier for the average drivers to do it rather than just the talented few.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller


Yeah, I brought it up, Chapman experimented with Peterson, but if anything, this example shows how left foot braking wasn't viable in that era.

It's a good point. I think the reason why left foot braking is now widespread is because gearboxes have been semi/fully automatic in F1 since 1989, so now it is routine for the average drivers to do it rather than just the talented few.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by masterhit


It's a good point. I think the reason why left foot braking is now widespread is because gearboxes have been semi/fully automatic in F1 since 1989, so now it is routine for the average drivers to do it rather than just the talented few.

Although (IIRC) the reason Ronnie was able to adapt to it was his Karting background.

[Peter Morley]

I was looking for an excuse to show this item from my Lotus memorabilia collection.



This gave Ronnie Peterson the option of left or right foot braking in the 76 (or was it 77)?

[conjohn]

Originally posted by Peter Morley
This gave Ronnie Peterson the option of left or right foot braking in the 76 (or was it 77)?

But where did the clutch pedal go?

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by conjohn


But where did the clutch pedal go?

Same place as it does in any left foot braking set up?

To left foot brake the brake pedal has to be to the left of the steering column (unless you move the steering column), so this is no different to whatever setup they were using.

I think this was used in conjunction with the revived Queerbox design, one feature of which was they did not need to use the clutch, leaving the left foot free to brake.

[Cirrus]

If the lack of mesh on the left hand spur of the pedal is any indication - Ronnie definitely preferred left foot braking!

Incidentally the clutch "pedal" in a modern F1 car is on the steering wheel, and due to cockpit safety regulations, the steering column is not allowed to encroach on the cockpit area. Indeed, many F1 cars have sides to the brake pedal, so the drivers foot is unable to move sideways at all.

[michaelab]

I have a related question: why don't all F1 drivers use left foot braking, particularly drivers like Barichello who have a long (and successful) karting career in their past?

A recent "F1 Racing" article had Ferrari telemetry printouts of Barichello and Schumacher driving various critical sections of various GP circuits and it was quite clear that Schumacher's left foot braking was giving him huge advantages, most noticably in the "S-curves" at Suzuka. It's clear that left foot braking makes it much easier to maximise the "friction circle" (the transition between tyre grip being used for braking to being used for cornering).

The article was supposed to be revealing why Schumacher was so fast but comparing him to someone who doesn't left foot brake makes the telemetry only useful to analyse the left foot braking advantages.

With fully automatic gears and left foot braking, F1 cars these days are really just big and powerful karts

Michael.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Peter Morley
I was looking for an excuse to show this item from my Lotus memorabilia collection.



This gave Ronnie Peterson the option of left or right foot braking in the 76 (or was it 77)?

Peter - what a great piece of memorabilia! Any more Lotus items?

As to whether it was from the 76 or 77. I cannot recall hearing of Ronnie having the option of left or right foot braking in any Lotus other than the original 76, but I could be wrong.

Again thanks for the picture.

[stuartbrs]

I have a related question: why don't all F1 drivers use left foot braking, particularly drivers like Barichello who have a long (and successful) karting career in their past?

I read that when Rubens tries to left foot brak that his fule usage goes way up, and that it compromises his strategy because he keeps a bit of throttle on at the same time as braking.

I must admit, that whilst driving automatic cars I prefer to left foot brake, and quite enjoy it too! gives it a bit of a racey Kart feel. Honed the technique whilst driving cabs for 6 months a few years back!!

[michaelab]

Originally posted by stuartbrs
I read that when Rubens tries to left foot brak that his fule usage goes way up, and that it compromises his strategy because he keeps a bit of throttle on at the same time as braking.

Interesting. Michael does the same thing (small throttle opening whilst braking - he's almost never completely off the throttle) but it doesn't seem to affect him so much

Michael.

[conjohn]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


Same place as it does in any left foot braking set up?

Ah, no clutch when left foot braking? Figures.

I tried left foot braking once in my road car, with the usual manual transmission pedal set up, as I had to get home with a badly sprained right ankle. No success, as my left foot was only used to stamping on the clutch pedal, so no feel at all...

On the other hand, it was no problem driving the same car with the left leg in a cast. Especially the first three weeks, when the ankle was cast at an angle (it was after an Achilles tendon operation) perfect for declutching. After they staightened it out (gee, that hurted like h--l ), it was a little more difficult, but still managable.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by conjohn


Ah, no clutch when left foot braking? Figures.

I tried left foot braking once in my road car, with the usual manual transmission pedal set up, as I had to get home with a badly sprained right ankle. No success, as my left foot was only used to stamping on the clutch pedal, so no feel at all...

On the other hand, it was no problem driving the same car with the left leg in a cast. Especially the first three weeks, when the ankle was cast at an angle (it was after an Achilles tendon operation) perfect for declutching. After they staightened it out (gee, that hurted like h--l ), it was a little more difficult, but still managable.

I've tried it as well. Arthritis/Rheumatism (yes, at my young age!) means that it is occassionally rather painful using my right foot.
What amazes me is how quickly the car stops - seems that my left foot is not as sensitive as my right!

When I had an automatic Rover SDi I used to left foot brake, the brakes were so bad that was the only way it stopped reasonably quickly! Plus it gave my left foot something to do, I couldn't get used tp the idea of only using 1 foot to drive.

Back to the original point I thought F1 drivers really started using left foot braking when turbo cars came in - so that they could keep the turbo spinning while braking - at the time I wondered what was wrong with heel & toeing, but then I am surprised that they need the car to change gear for them.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


Peter - what a great piece of memorabilia! Any more Lotus items?

As to whether it was from the 76 or 77. I cannot recall hearing of Ronnie having the option of left or right foot braking in any Lotus other than the original 76, but I could be wrong.

Again thanks for the picture.

A few things:

windtunnel models for the 78 & 88 (or is it 77 & 86?), for example!





Various odds & sods, plenty of real parts (from my Lotus 10, through the 49 upto bits from 92s etc), models and documentation.

I thought the pedal was 76 but have got so used to people correcting me on the fine detail that I was covering myself!!

I have got various other bits of 76, some suspension parts, water tubing for example but nothing as interesting as the pedal.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Peter Morley

Back to the original point I thought F1 drivers really started using left foot braking when turbo cars came in - so that they could keep the turbo spinning while braking

That doesn't add up to me....to keep the revs up while braking, and keeping the turbo spinning, surely you would have to declutch? i.e. left foot on the clutch, right foot heel & toeing?

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


A few things:

windtunnel models for the 78 & 88 (or is it 77 & 86?), for example!





Various odds & sods, plenty of real parts (from my Lotus 10, through the 49 upto bits from 92s etc), models and documentation.

I thought the pedal was 76 but have got so used to people correcting me on the fine detail that I was covering myself!!

I have got various other bits of 76, some suspension parts, water tubing for example but nothing as interesting as the pedal.

Lovely! Especially, for me, the windtunnel model of the 78. The blue one looks to me a lot like the 86 but, hey, in the end these are just wonderful

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by David Beard


That doesn't add up to me....to keep the revs up while braking, and keeping the turbo spinning, surely you would have to declutch? i.e. left foot on the clutch, right foot heel & toeing?

I never really followed the logic of it all but the rally boys used to claim they had to left foot brake and keep the power on with the right foot in the Group B turbo cars.

(n.b. Can't remember whether the turbo rally cars pre-dated the F1 cars or not though).

I think the theory goes something like the excess fuel dumped in the engine ignites and keeps the turbine spinning - possibly like all the 'mis-firing' (fuel burning in the exhaust?) that goes on in modern rally cars, which might be the same effect but done by a computer.

I do know remember the F1 cars had to keep blipping the throttle as they slowed down to keep the turbo speed up just to stop it breaking - Tyrrell lost a load of Renault engines until one of the other drivers explained the need to keep the turbo spinning (something like 3 or 5 big blips at the end of the long straight at Paul Ricard).

I know that when I try it in my Subaru turbo the whole thing gets a bit unstable, but my brakes aren't up to F1 standard!

Given a Hewland changes well enough without declutching, maybe they didn't declutch anyway?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


Widespread use maybe - but what about the 1974 version of the Lotus queer-box in the Lotus 76?

The 76 didn't have a Lotus queer-box. It had an electronically controlled clutch which was operated by a switch in the gear lever. A conventional clutch pedal was used for starting but thereafter the driver could use the left foot brake. The prototype 79 had the modified queer-box.

Both were unsuccessful.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Roger Clark


The 76 didn't have a Lotus queer-box. It had an electronically controlled clutch which was operated by a switch in the gear lever. A conventional clutch pedal was used for starting but thereafter the driver could use the left foot brake. The prototype 79 had the modified queer-box.

Both were unsuccessful.

Agreed - and my short-hand reference re:the original T76 gearbox (which, of course had a Hewland FG400) was misleading even if my original point remains true - which was that the unusual (and unsuccessful) Lotus gearchange arrangement in that car allowed for left foot braking. N'est pas?

Also there is a pretty good picture in William Taylors book showing a piece like Peter Morley's in place in the cockpit of a 76 - this time without the left side pedal being shaved. I also hadn't realized that in South Africa Ronnie had his pedal order altered so that it went, left to right brake, clutch, brake, throttle.

[dmj]

Originally posted by Peter Morley

(n.b. Can't remember whether the turbo rally cars pre-dated the F1 cars or not though).

First turbo win in rally was just a few months before first F1 turbo win...

February 1979 Stig Blomqvist becomes the first person to win a World Championship rally in a turbo charged car

Source: http://www.welshrall.../historyidx.htm IIRC it was Swedish rally and Saab 99 Turbo. However, BMW 2002 Turbo might have been tried in rallies a few years earlier than Renault started its F1 project but I don't know details... I believe factory wasn't involved as BMW officially left rally scene about the time Turbo was just produced. But I would be surprised if no one tried to use it in rallies back then, despite the turbo lag.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by dmj


First turbo win in rally was just a few months before first F1 turbo win...

Source: http://www.welshrall.../historyidx.htm IIRC it was Swedish rally and Saab 99 Turbo. However, BMW 2002 Turbo might have been tried in rallies a few years earlier than Renault started its F1 project but I don't know details... I believe factory wasn't involved as BMW officially left rally scene about the time Turbo was just produced. But I would be surprised if no one tried to use it in rallies back then, despite the turbo lag.

Didn't the Renault 5 turbo rally car first appear circa 1978?

[m.tanney]

  Late in 1974, Autosport published an interview with Ronnie Peterson in which he spoke of his experiences with left-hand braking. I can't remember what he said about it, but I'm sure that there are TNFers with good Autosport collections who could look it up.
  The one thing from the interview that does stick in my mind was Ronnie's position on the WDC scoring system: he thought that drivers should be ranked by the number of GPs they'd won, with the points system to be used as a tie-breaker between drivers with the same number of wins. It was a racer's approach to the issue. A good idea then, a good idea now.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by dolomite

Didn't the Renault 5 turbo rally car first appear circa 1978?

OK, 1980: http://www.automobil...ult/r5turbo.php