30 replies to this topic

[tinman]

"seismic seconds - Death of Ayrton Senna" - National Geographic Channel

Hey is this feature new? Something new has been discovered? Has anybody seen this before? Due to be aired tonight (5 hrs from now)




ps

stupid title mixing ayrton's death with senna's death

[Racer Joe]

IIRC, nope nothing new at all.

Still the same old theories that has been rehashed about a trillion times now.

[DawnDudeRugs]

Is that the doco that spells his name "Aryton"?

[Shiftin]

Originally posted by DawnDudeRugs
Is that the doco that spells his name "Aryton"?

Oh that's nothing. Yesterday night I was watching a F1-special on Discovery about Renault. Senna's name was spelled as Airton and an F1-engine weigh 530kg according to the subtitles

About this documentary. I think I saw it a few months back. It was a huge dissapointment. To short, and crap footage. IIRC most was directly out of a computergame/simulation... Nothing new and just when it becomes interesting it's over...

[Viktor]

Originally posted by Shiftin


Oh that's nothing. Yesterday night I was watching a F1-special on Discovery about Renault. Senna's name was spelled as Airton and an F1-engine weigh 530kg according to the subtitles

Same mistakes in the Swedish subtitles! But it was a good program, much better then the old Benetton program.
Thay have fixed the spelling of Ayrtons name in the National Geographic program.

/Viktor

[Tomecek]

Just saw that. Even though nothing new, still interesting.

[fifi]

its been on in the uk and its got nowt new in it

[Mox]

It is the most flawed thing I've ever seen.

[SeanValen]

It's interesting for fans who don't know past F1 much, for them, the documentary will be fresh.

[Mox]

Originally posted by SeanValen
It's interesting for fans who don't know past F1 much, for them, the documentary will be fresh.

Yeah - and tell them a lot of wrong things.

[Ventura]

Originally posted by SeanValen
It's interesting for fans who don't know past F1 much, for them, the documentary will be fresh.

That will be at least half of this forum then!

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by Mox


Yeah - and tell them a lot of wrong things.

Then we can always depend on great f1 knowlege masters such as ourselfs to correct them when the time comes and they use their false knowlege. Atlas f1 is like morals of f1 racing college, some of us experienced ones act as teachers.

[Mox]

True - but I don't recall the documentary mentioning AtlasF1, and I speculate - although a very scary thought - that there ARE F1-viewers who do not read Atlas.

[Velocifer]

Originally posted by Mox
It is the most flawed thing I've ever seen.

Why?

[furr]

considering its really a doco about time scale and not F1 i think they did an ok job. it was never meant to be an indepth look at F1, i mean just look at the other events they have in the series:

The Eruption of Mount St. Helens
The Bhopal Gas Disaster
The Airshow Miracle
The Sinking of HMS Coventry
The Crash of TWA 800

[tinman]

Thanks. Although thanks for a power outage , I wasn't able to view it though.

[Mox]

Originally posted by Velocifer

Why?

Because they draw conclusions based on single statements, present "proof" by stating things that are basically incorrect and that everybody can see is incorrect by simply watching the videoclips available to everybody online.

The "analyze" the "timeline of events", but there really is no analysis, but they never look at the consequences of the events or combined data from the telemetry.

They basically say ...

1) The steering column had been modified
2) The wheel was flexing
3) The wheel was flexible in the other Williams as well
4) telemetry shows steering input up to the time of impact
5) Conclusion: The column wasn't broken

And then

6) There had been a safety car
7) Colder tyres have lower pressure
8) Lower pressure means lower ride height
9) If a car bottoms out it loses downforce
10) Sparks came from Senna's car indicating that it bottomed out
11) Conclusion: The cold tyres caused the incident.

No mention that while there was indeed Steering input registered in the telemetry, the sensor was placed lower than the point where the column was broken.

No mention of the timeline and telemetry when talking about the steering wheel.

No mention that this Steering input telemetry changes from +28 to -7, indicating that force was applied to turn the car RIGHT, not left, so if Senna was indeed still steering, then he was turning into the wall, not round the corner.

And then the timing where the sparks were seen was off by just about .5s compared to what you can see on the actual footage, appearing AFTER the car had begun to move away from the apex, not before.

This was not investigative in any way, just a computer-gfx show off of something somebody read from the verdict of the first trial.

The experts that was included all had valid and interesting statements, but none of them really said anything as to the reason of the incident.


Flawed, incomplete, inconclusive ... not even very well made. :-(

[Yelnats]

Thank you Mox. Although some are bored by this topic I believe it is far from settled and remains a facinating subject for informed debate.

[nigel red5]

I`m with fifi & Mox on this one.. To be honest it`s poor. I watched it once and have`nt looked at it since, and that`s a good couple of years now.

Computer simulation.....pah! If you are a serious company wanting to prove what you call "fact"....then you spend the money, and get the real footage from the on-board camera (up until the point it goes blank 1.4s before the contact with the wall). You DON`T do a computer simulation of it.

In fact, in my own summary of the programme i wrote the following....

GOING CRITICAL : THE DEATH OF AYRTON SENNA (2001) 24 MINS ENGLISH
APPARENTLY THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS PROG KNOW WHY AYRTON SENNA DIED…. OH THAT`S GOOD, MAYBE THEY CAN TELL THE REST OF US THEN?! THE PROGRAMME GOES DOWN THE LINE OF STEERING FAILURE, AND USING COMPUTER SIMULATIONS TRY TO PROVE THIS. THIS INVESTIGATION IS SO THOROUGH, THAT THEY DID`NT EVEN PAY FOR A CLIP OF THE ACTUAL INCIDENT. IN FACT…..THEY DID`NT EVEN SPELL HIS NAME RIGHT!!! “THE DEATH OF ARYTON SENNA” ON THE SCREEN IN THE FIST 20 SECS… HINT - DISMISS THIS PROGRAMME AS GARBAGE, BASICALLY BECAUSE IT IS.

[kenny]

Originally posted by nigel red5


GOING CRITICAL : THE DEATH OF AYRTON SENNA (2001) 24 MINS ENGLISH
APPARENTLY THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS PROG KNOW WHY AYRTON SENNA DIED…. OH THAT`S GOOD, MAYBE THEY CAN TELL THE REST OF US THEN?! THE PROGRAMME GOES DOWN THE LINE OF STEERING FAILURE, AND USING COMPUTER SIMULATIONS TRY TO PROVE THIS. THIS INVESTIGATION IS SO THOROUGH, THAT THEY DID`NT EVEN PAY FOR A CLIP OF THE ACTUAL INCIDENT. IN FACT…..THEY DID`NT EVEN SPELL HIS NAME RIGHT!!! “THE DEATH OF ARYTON SENNA” ON THE SCREEN IN THE FIST 20 SECS… HINT - DISMISS THIS PROGRAMME AS GARBAGE, BASICALLY BECAUSE IT IS.

[pRy]

Well firstly... they used old F1 footage and a "simulator" because I'm guessing they didn't want to pay the FOA for the footage. That may even be why they spelt his name wrong, to get around that too *shrug*.

Either way, all this programme did was report the official Williams version of events and the cause Williams gave for the accident. It is not showing you anything new nor does the programme claim to have discovered new evidence, it simply shows you the events and shows some telemetry. It's really for anyone who had not taken a prior interest in the accident, or even for non F1 fans.

[Velocifer]

Originally posted by Mox
No mention that this Steering input telemetry changes from +28 to -7, indicating that force was applied to turn the car RIGHT, not left, so if Senna was indeed still steering, then he was turning into the wall, not round the corner.

But I thought it was mentioned as Senna countersteering when the back stepped out?

The program did say that this was the first ever race where the SC was deployed on a dry track and seeing the cheesy Alfa (?) struggling to make 100 kph the slicks of the other cars must have been stone cold and affected the ride height considerably. I thought the case was pretty good, but I agree they should have shown the onboard footage.

What annoyed me was that the real reason for Senna's death was not even mentioned, which of course is the deathtrap of a concrete wall that somebody left standing after Berger's horrific '89 crash.

[Mox]

Originally posted by Velocifer

But I thought it was mentioned as Senna countersteering when the back stepped out?

The program did say that this was the first ever race where the SC was deployed on a dry track and seeing the cheesy Alfa (?) struggling to make 100 kph the slicks of the other cars must have been stone cold and affected the ride height considerably. I thought the case was pretty good, but I agree they should have shown the onboard footage.

What annoyed me was that the real reason for Senna's death was not even mentioned, which of course is the deathtrap of a concrete wall that somebody left standing after Berger's horrific '89 crash.

Yes - that was indeed mentioned, but that point was WAY earlier than the -7 reading that was the last reading on the telemetry.

If Senna was indeed countersteering for 1.8s then wouldn't it be fair to say, that the way the car travelled in a straight line into the wall is very strange?

If Senna was countersteering wouldn't that be because the backend was still sliding?

Well ... it didn't!

Actually - the telemetry for lateral acceleration just drops to almost 0 from over 3g. I can't see anything on the telemetry indicating that the back steps out. If anything, it's an understeering behaviour - not an oversteering behaviour.

Regarding the cold tyres, I think that theory is totally off.
The race was restarted on lap 6 where Senna did a 1m.24.991. Only 2 drivers managed to do faster laps during the entire race, and that was Hill and Schumacher.

Cold tyres? Low pressure?

Well, they weren't down on performance apparently.
On lap 7, the tyres would very likely have been back up to temperature after one lap of all-out speed.

Nope - I don't buy it.

[armchair expert]

FYI, for the Aussies with Foxtel, there is a "premiere" showing of this on the National Geographic Channel this evening (Oct 6) at 8:30.

[Arrow]

Just saw it.

Didnt really offer much at all,and wasnt very convincing.

[OssieFan]

I thought it was interesting overall but I don't understand why a steering wheel in an F1 car would have so much movement up and down as they showed, it seemed quite excessive. Was this right?

[Arrow]

Originally posted by OssieFan
I thought it was interesting overall but I don't understand why a steering wheel in an F1 car would have so much movement up and down as they showed, it seemed quite excessive. Was this right?

That must of been bullshit.
It was moving around like it was attached to a wet noodle.
I cant beleive that much movement is accepted from such a precision instrument.

[Mat]

Originally posted by OssieFan
I thought it was interesting overall but I don't understand why a steering wheel in an F1 car would have so much movement up and down as they showed, it seemed quite excessive. Was this right?

That was obviously a load of ****. Probably something the Williams lawyers made up to create a gray-area over the steering column.

[pRy]

Well Coulthard did a video evidence piece showing the wheel moving with his own hands while sat in the cockpit, to show that the wheel does flex around... are you suggesting Coulthard lied too?

[Arrow]

Originally posted by pRy
Well Coulthard did a video evidence piece showing the wheel moving with his own hands while sat in the cockpit, to show that the wheel does flex around... are you suggesting Coulthard lied too?

Who was coulthard working in 1994?
Wasnt he a young up and coming driver?

Ill let you work the rest out

[Mat]

Originally posted by pRy
Well Coulthard did a video evidence piece showing the wheel moving with his own hands while sat in the cockpit, to show that the wheel does flex around... are you suggesting Coulthard lied too?

yessir i am.