22 replies to this topic

[R.W. Mackenzie]

I was watching Speed Channel this afternoon (US GP final qualifying) and one of the commercials featured Mario Andretti endorsing a brand of exhaust systems (I forget the name). I'd seen it many, many times before and usually tune it out. But this time I noticed that near the end there is a shot of several cars and the car in the front left looked like a 250F with the exhausts coming out of the wrong side. Of course I realized immediately that that meant it was no ordinary 250F (if there is such a thing) but rather the V12 variant that Behra drove in 1957. It struck me as very strange that such an obscure and unique car would end up in a muffler commercial. I was under the impression (perhaps mistaken) that only one such car was ever built.

Does anyone know how many were actually built and what has become of them?

Bob Mackenzie

[Don Capps]

Your cue, David....

[David McKinney]

Three cars appeared at one or more 1957 races, but usually only in practice
1) a 1956 car equipped with the V12 engine. Raced in non-championship Rheims GP (Menditeguy) but DNF. Later converted to a six and sold. Exists in this form (Peter Heuberger, CH)
2) purpose-built car 1957 - never raced - converted to a six and sold. Remains were put together in the 1980s and the car exists, in this form (Nick Mason, GB)
3) purpose-built car 1957 - raced in Italian GP (Behra) but DNF. Sold without engine but rebuilt in 1980s with 3-litre V12 sportscar engine and exists in this form (Thomas Bscher, D)

[RTH]

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie
. But this time I noticed that near the end there is a shot of several cars and the car in the front left looked like a 250F with the exhausts coming out of the wrong side. Of course I realized immediately that that meant it was no ordinary 250F

Bob Mackenzie

Might the answer be simpler - perhaps the images have just been turned left to right - mirrorwise TV commercials often do this now so that one filming of a car advert can instantly be switched from right hand drive to left hand drive to serve say both UK and German markets - that is why UK manufacturers PR cars are often registered with personal numbers like - 111 VYW so that when the film is reversed it is still readable and credible .

[Lec CRP1]

Originally posted by RTH


Might the answer be simpler - perhaps the images have just been turned left to right - mirrorwise TV commercials often do this now so that one filming of a car advert can instantly be switched from right hand drive to left hand drive to serve say both UK and German markets - that is why UK manufacturers PR cars are often registered with personal numbers like - 111 VYW so that when the film is reversed it is still readable and credible .

Oh, why do companies do this? It's very, very annoying. This week I bought a book about the Beatles : There was a photo on the back cover which showed both Lennon and Harrison as holding their guitars left-handed and McCartney holding his bass right-handed (info- in real life they were the other way around). Why do certain editors consider this as something that doesn't matter? Or is it just left-handed people (such as I) who notice these things?

Somewhat more on-topic, how many F1 drivers were left-handed? I've read that being left-handed means you have better spacial perception...

[R.W. Mackenzie]

David,

Thanks for the response. Very thorough.

RTH,

I don't think that they reversed it. What caught my eye was the way the exhaust jogged up and over the rear wheels (like the Ferrari 246 F1 of 1958). The exhausts of the standard 250F came out about mid height on the left side of the engine bay and more or less angled straight up and over the rear wheels. The V12 has the exhausts coming out lower on each side of the engine bay, go back straight and then loop up and over the rear wheels.

I scanned two pictures (one shows Fangio at Monaco in 1957 and is from Richard Hough's "Racing Cars, Racing Cars, Racing Cars, Racing Cars" on page 125 and the other shows Behra at Monza in 1957 and is from Denis Jenkinson's "The Racing Driver" on page 163) but I couldn't attach them because I don't have a URL to attach them to.

And while I was typing the last paragraph, I noticed on the rear dust jacket what appears to be another view of Fangio at Monaco the same year. From that angle, the exhausts do seem to jog a bit. Also the picture on the front cover of the dust jacket there is another shot of Fangio in what appears to be another 250F with the exhausts coming out the wrong side of the engine bay and terminating just by the Maestro's elbow. So I guess there is no such thing as a standard 250F and I withdraw my argument.

Anyway, if you're watching the USGP today on Speed Channel, watch for that commercial and see what you think.

Bob Mackenzie

[karlcars]

Which, then, was the car that was entered in one of the 500-mile Monzanopolis races? And what was its engine specification?

[David McKinney]

That was the 1956-based car. Engine was a 3.5-litre V12 sportscar unit, though how much it was modified I do not, off the top of my head, recall

[dmkerry]

maybe my memory is not so good, but I seem to remember seeing an old castrol film with a review of the 1957 Monaco GP I beleive that Fangio at least practiced the V12 250F. He may have even raced it.

just my 2 cents worth


Thanks to all the TNF'ers out their this is an amazing forum.

cheers
dave

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by dmkerry
maybe my memory is not so good, but I seem to remember seeing an old castrol film with a review of the 1957 Monaco GP I beleive that Fangio at least practiced the V12 250F. He may have even raced it.

just my 2 cents worth


Thanks to all the TNF'ers out their this is an amazing forum.

cheers
dave

According to David's 250F book, almost everybody practiced the V12 at Monaco: Fangio, Schell, Menditeguy, Scarlatti and Herrmann!

[Ray Bell]

The Maserati attitude to the car's development might be seen in the events of Pescara... Scarlatti, it had been decided, was to drive the car in the race 'to give it a complete test run'... but was ultimately given a 6-cylinder car (with the heavier 1956 chassis, though fitted with the latest 1957 body) for the event.

In the October 1957 issue of Motor Racing there is an article on the V12... headed "Long Term Project" it begins with the explanation that the coming change to petrol was a major reason for the development.

The engine was a new design begun in 1956, work beginning after the Italian GP. Alfieri is said to have chosen the 12-cylinder layout because of his experience with the Mondial motorcycle engine. After initial criticism along the lines that the engine would be too heavy, it astounded the critics when it weighed in at 11lbs (about 5kg) less than the 250F six. I have to say, it astounds me too!

Then the explanation comes that it used a new light alloy not previously employed by Maserati, and that the castings were what we might call 'thinwall' today.

First dyno tests were run without hitches and the engine gave 280bhp at 9,500rpm, about ten more bhp than the six ever gave.

Hans Tanner wrote: "One of the early 1956 chassis was quickly pulled out of retirement and the engine fitted in it. Fantuzzi, Maserati's coachbuilder, beat out a lumpy body, and two six-cylinder type exhausts were stuck on either side of the car. A large, gaping carburetter (sic) air intake was cut out of the bonnet and the car was taken to the well-known Modena Autodrome for testing. Fangio took it around for several laps but got out shaking his head. There were bugs all right - no power at the bottom end and everything coming in with a bang just at the wrong moments."

Despite this, the car was race-prepared for Syracuse, with minor cosmetic changes and some efforts made at the test bench to even out the power flow. Even so, all the drivers, having tried the car, are said to have scared themselves in it.

The Solex carburettors were replaced with Webers, new exhausts with megaphones fitted and power went up to over 300bhp with 10,000rpm available. A new chassis with a 2250mm wheelbase was used (30mm shorter than the 1956 car), paring over 30lbs from the weight.

In this form at Monaco, only Fangio was able to tame it, though the power curve had been improved. Even so, it was four seconds slower than his regular car, and the car covered more than the race distance as each of the drivers tried it in practice, the spectators apparently revelling in the sound of the engine and the sight of the long yellow flames coming from the megaphones.

Another new frame was rigged up for the engine after this, a modified lightweight 1957 frame with the 5-degree engine offset that had been used to win at Monza in 1956. There were several strengthening crossbraces welded across the major angular joins at the front end of the frame.

While this was being done, however, Menditeguy blew up the prototype at Rouen, "the car came back with motheaten pistons." This was the first failure the engine suffered, but it can be understood that this would be a setback in a racing department already working hard to keep a number of 250Fs under its team as they pursued Fangio's fifth world championship.

The wheelbase of the new chassis was taken out to 2300mm, with weight reduced to 12 1/4 cwt (about 50kg off the original car), and the offset driving position lowered the driver by six inches. General lines of the car were 4" lower, and Behra and Scarlatti used words like 'phenomenal' and 'magnificent' after trying it out at Modena. Menditeguy, however, blew up the engine...

Lovely wording of Tanner's story follows:

"Maserati had two problems; Menditeguy settled one by leaving the team and the other was eased by giving the design department a jab - to locate the cause of the failure. It was found in the connecting rods; small cracks were forming across the web holding the bearings in the rod. New rods were designed and the car was taken to Imola. Fangio climbed in, completed three waraming up laps, and then proceeded to beat the lap record by 1 second. When he climbed out he winked broadly at Alfieri, nodded his head and gave the car a appreciative pat." It's worth noting that this was with the Reims gearing fitted... 'quite unsuitable for the Nurburgring-like twists and turns of the little circuit near Bologna.'

His story then says that Alfieri was less influenced by Colombo than predecessor Bellentani, and discussion ensues on Alfieri's belief in high rpms. The stroke of the engine was 56mm, giving only 3,600 feet per minute piston speed at 10,000rpm, well under the limits of the time.

The block is described as having been cut off at the crankshaft centreline, then a 'strong but light' ribbed webbing fixed by 14 'strong studs' supports the main bearing caps, which seem by the description to have been separate from this casting and had an additional set of studs 'to limit distortion'... it's all a bit unclear to me.

The piston pins have both circlips and aluminium 'plugs' to ensure they don't gouge the bores, a precaution also used on the 250F, compression ration was between 12:1 and 12.4:1 depending on which pistons were used, these were made by Borgo and weighed 14.25 ounces each, with two compression rings and one oil ring.

The cast aluminium sump was shallow and baffled, and the bottom cover plate was modified after early runs proved that the finning was too deep and prone to being grounded. Twin scavenge pumps were used, drives for these being 'integral with the block' (whatever that means!) and coming from a spur gear on the nose of the crank. Another spur gear drove everything else... cams, water pumps, fuel pump and distributors. All gears were straight cut, external oil lines had flexible hoses to cope with vibration.

The cooling system on both the 250F and this engine directed the incoming cooled water in two directions - most of it to the exhaust valve guides via a manifold down the centre of the heads, the balance going to the block. Another manifold above the exhaust valves took the water from the engines.

There was an experimental aluminium radiator that weighed 9lbs instead of the 33lbs of the copper one, but it wasn't used because of the extreme cost.

Cams ran in four bearings, they had drillings in the bearings and also in the lobes to lubricate bearings and tappets, while valve springs were twin hairpins. Inlet valves opened 8mm, exhausts 7.5mm, the valves being set at 32 degrees (inlet) and 35 degrees (exhaust), seats were forged bronze, valve guides didn't protrude into the polished ports.

The small amount of space available in the hemispherical combustion chambers dictated the use of 10mm spark plugs (as later used on the DFV amid much fanfare), though one engine was built (to the time of this writing) with 14mm plugs.

The Weber carburettors were designated 35IDM, twin choke downdraughts. Across the head the exhausts were the subject of some experimentation for different circuits, though what we now call 'extractors' were never employed.

The exhaust setup intended for the Nurburgring had twin pipes (on each side) join into one 'rather narrow bore pipe which sweeps up and over the back suspension and protrudes from the back of the car.'

The iginition system comprises two distributors mounted at the fornt of the engine, driven by the train of gears that run the cams. There was a small battery mounted beside the driver, 24 coils (!) grouped under the scuttle and having a wire mesh grille so that airflow could cool them.

The block and sump castings extend around the flywheel and clutch, the flywheel was fixed by 'a multiplicity of studs' and was of 'the shallow pot type' with internal splining for the multi-plate clutch, which was compressed by nine coil springs and had three levers or fingers to release it. The complete clutch and flywheel weighed a mere 12lbs, and it had an aluminium cover retained by eight bolts and containing a double bearing for the clutch shaft.

The transmission was the same as the later 6-cylinder cars, but with a reduction gear between the clutch and the gearbox. When one considers that this was a mere 4-speed, it's easier to understand why this peaky engine was difficult to master. A ZF 8-cam limited slip differential was used.

Suspension and brakes were the same, essentially, as on the 6-cylinder cars. A large radiator intake was made at first as overheating was expected to be a problem, but experience proved that the regular long snout that had come in at Monza in 1956 was sufficient. Apparently the cause of Behra's overheating at Monza in 1957 wasn't caused by the nose.

[Jonas]

Very interesting!
I just thought I'd post a picture of the car (I assume it is the one...) in the hands of Fangio at Monaco..

[Jonas]

It seems that none of the V12 cars survived with the original engine. Is this really true? What happened to the original V12 engines?
I would really love to hear the sound coming from those twin megaphones at 10,000 rpm!

[Ray Bell]

I imagine they were retained at the factory...

In 1965, Alec Mildren remembered that they were there and somehow obtained one... it must have been one of these engines, or even two of them.

Bob Britton was commissioned to alter the rear of Mildren's Brabham BT11 frame so that the V12 could take the place of the FPF Climax. Adapting to the Hewland and all of the relevant sorting took longer than expected, I'd say, because the planned use of the car for the Tasman Cup series of 1966 was whittled down to some practice laps at Warwick Farm. The team bought another FPF-powered car to contest the series, Frank Gardner tried to do some sorting in midweek sessions when they reached Australia and on the Friday prior to the Warwick Farm even in the untimed practice sessions.

I will soon have a photograph of this car on that day...

After the Tasman it must have all been considered too hard... the engine or engines would presumably have been sent back to Italy.

As to the cars, there were two frames that were built specifically for the V12. David McKinney's post explains that one was converted to fit the six as the other frame was converted to take the V12 in 1957. The third, the one that Fangio was so happy with, now has a 3-litre V12 fitted.

[Pedro 917]

Here are some pictures from this summer's historic races :

Goodwood Festival of Speed : the V-12 engine of the Werner Klaus entered Maserati 250F :



Nurburgring OTGP : the 1956 Maserati 250F of Jose Albuquerque :



The 1954 Maserati 250F of Dieter Streve-Muhlens, chassis nr. 2523 / engine nr. 2522 :









Two Maserati's 250F : #26, 1956 entered by von Schenk and #23, 1955 entered by Dr. Thomas Bscher :



.....and finally a V-6 engine and cockpit of an unidentified car :

[Pedro 917]

I've found another picture of the V-6 engine of the Burkhard von Schenk car :

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As to the cars, there were two frames that were built specifically for the V12. David McKinney's post explains that one was converted to fit the six as the other frame was converted to take the V12 in 1957. The third, the one that Fangio was so happy with, now has a 3-litre V12 fitted.

I don't understand this

Pedro
Those engines are in-line sixes with twin-overhead-camshaft cylinder-heads - not V6s

[Jonas]

Nice pic's!

So, the V12 shown is the 3 litre sports car engine, I assume. Well, it sure looks nice anyway! From what model is this engine taken?
I also assume that this car runs along with the 2.5 litre F1's in today's classsic racing. I've never seen or heard it though..

Ok, it seems that I've got myself anothrer thing to dream of; that someone finds, restores and uses an original 2.5 litre Maserati V12 F1 engine fitted in a 250F chassis!!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I don't understand this

Probably understandable... I made a mistake when I wrote it and had to change it... not good, should have started again. But to explain, and remember this was in response to a question about the present whereabouts of the chassis:

As to the cars, there were two frames that were built specifically for the V12. Simple enough

David McKinney's post explains that one was converted to fit the six (as in 'later converted') as the other frame was (or 'had been') converted to take the V12 in 1957.

The third, the one that Fangio was so happy with, now has a 3-litre V12 fitted. this is right, no?

By the way, is Bob Mackenzie happy that I came up with an explanation to his second query?

Is Jonas better informed about subsequent use of the engines?

[Jonas]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Is Jonas better informed about subsequent use of the engines?

No, no! I'm sorry to say I know nothing in this matter! That is why I asked. I just wanted to hear if anyone is known to have rescued any of the engines from.. well, disappearing, being scrapped or whatever this kind of fascinating parts of racing history have a tendency to do from time to time throughout history..

I understand from our well informed fellow members that the chassies originally carrying the V12 engines were subsequently converted to carry the 250F original in-line six cylinder 2.5 litre engine. Should, on the other hand, an original 2.5 litre V12 engine appear from somewhere, I for one (if I was the extremely fortunate owner of a 250F car....) would be able to live with carrying out the alternations on the chassies to fit the V12 once again! (I've never really understood how extensive the changes were, though. But I just imagine they can't be that radical.)

[Ray Bell]

What I have explained, of course, is that at least one engine still existed and was in the factory's possession in 1966.

Could it, perhaps, have become a museum exhibit somewhere?

[David McKinney]

I do know that parties associated with the existing V12 250F are at present trying very hard to obtain a 2.5-litre engine for it

[Ray Bell]

That would be a nice thing to happen indeed...