Can anyone provide specs and race history of the 1908 Grand Prix Benz that is, I believe, at the British National Motor Museum? Also believe this car was at one of the Goodwood events this year.
Any information that could be provided on this interesting car would be appreciated.
Bob Holcombe
1908 GP Benz
Started by
Bob Holcombe
, Sep 30 2003 16:44
15 replies to this topic
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#2
David McKinney
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Posted 30 September 2003 - 18:07
I might be completely wrong here - and am too lazy to check at the moment - but I think there was one at the Goodwood Festival of Speed this year and a different one in the Brooklands display at the Revival meeting. Which - if either - has a connection with the National Motor Museum I do not know
Not much help, am I
Not much help, am I
#3
Pedro 917
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Posted 30 September 2003 - 19:56
Picture from the Festival of Speed 2003 :
#4
fines
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Posted 30 September 2003 - 20:21
Specs for the 1908 Grand Prix Benz are not so simple as it seems, because there were two types in the race, iirc: two "small" ones (12.1 litre) for Hémery and Hanriot and a BIG one (20.1 litre) for Erle. 1250 kg dry weight, chain drive, wheel base 280 cm and track 135 cm are other specifications I can find, but I'm not sure if these were the same for both types. I should be able to find out more.
#5
Bob Holcombe
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Posted 30 September 2003 - 20:38
Great photograph! Did you happen to get one of the instrument panel?
Bob
Bob
#6
Pedro 917
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Posted 30 September 2003 - 21:30
Sorry Bob, only this one!
#7
robert dick
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Posted 01 October 2003 - 09:47
In principle Benz built three different types of racers during the years 1908 to 1913 :
- two short stroke GP cars for the GP de l'ACF/Dieppe/1908;
- four long stroke GP cars, one for the GP de l'ACF/Dieppe/1908, two for the GP of America/Savannah/1910, finally an additional one for the GP of America/Savannah/1911;
- five sprint/record cars, one car per year between 1909 and 1913, and in addition a long chassis with the sprint/record engine.
A) short stroke GP cars :
155/160 mm, OHV-head, three main bearings, 130 HP at 1600/min, wheelbase 275 cm, track 135 cm, tyres depending on the circuit configuration 870/90 or 875/105 front, 880/120, 895/135, 935/135 or even the unconventional 850/150 rear, weight 1240 kg (pesage Dieppe).
Hémery drove a short stroke Benz to victory in the 1908 Petersburg-Moscow race. Hémery and Hanriot drove two cars in the 1908 GP de l'ACF and the 1908 GP of America/Savannah.
1) Barney Oldfield bought the ex-Hémery racer, used it for some dirt track records at Dallas in December 1909. Haupt was at the wheel of this car at Savannah/1910, turned over, the Benz "was a total wreck".
2) Erwin Bergdoll bought the ex-Hanriot car, was second in the "Free-for-all" at Elgin/1912 and the GP at Milwaukee/1912, and won the "Fourth Annual 200 Mile Race of the Quaker City Motor Club" at Philadelphia/1911 (in the 1911 GP at Savannah Bergdoll drove a Benz Auto Import long stroke car).
B) long stroke GP cars :
155/200 mm, 158 HP at 1500/min, other data see short stroke GP cars.
1) Erle drove the first long stroke GP Benz at Dieppe and Savannah, where he had a serious accident, the car was scrapped.
2) new car for Hémery/GP Savannah/1910.
3) new car for Bruce Brown/GP Savannah/1910.
4) new car for Hémery/GP Savannah/1911.
C) sprint/record cars :
185/200 mm, five main bearings, 184 HP at 1500/min, 200 HP at 1600/min, weight 1300 kg, other data see GP cars (for the Daytona records, Oldfield used tyres 32 x 4" front, 34 x 5" rear).
1) In the summer of 1909, Erle drove the first sprint/record car at Frankfurt and in the hillclimb to the Semmering. In October, Hémery drove it at Tervuren (near Brussel) and Brooklands.
Over the winter of 1909/10, Oldfield bought this first 21-litre Benz (which became the "Lighning Benz" and "Blitzen Benz"), giving back his ex-Hémery GP racer to the New York Benz Auto Import. Oldfield used the Benz for the famous records at Daytona. In October 1910, when Oldfield was suspended by the AAA, he sold the Benz to Ernie Moross. In 1911 Burman was at the wheel for the records at Daytona.
2) In 1910 Erle used a second 21-litre Benz for sprints in the western part of Europe.
3) Heim and Hörner used a third 21-litre for sprints in the eastern part of Europe.
4) In 1912 a new 21-litre was delivered to Moross/Burman (the "Jumbo Benz" and "Blitzen Benz no. 2").
5) In 1913 the fifth 21-litre was delivered to Hornsted/London.
6) In 1913 a 21-litre engine mounted in a 345 cm-wheelbase frame was delivered to Gent/Holland.
= = = = =
Don't know the cylinder dimensions of the car on Pedro's photo. If it is a short stroke GP car, it could be the ex-Hanriot = ex-Bergdoll car.
- two short stroke GP cars for the GP de l'ACF/Dieppe/1908;
- four long stroke GP cars, one for the GP de l'ACF/Dieppe/1908, two for the GP of America/Savannah/1910, finally an additional one for the GP of America/Savannah/1911;
- five sprint/record cars, one car per year between 1909 and 1913, and in addition a long chassis with the sprint/record engine.
A) short stroke GP cars :
155/160 mm, OHV-head, three main bearings, 130 HP at 1600/min, wheelbase 275 cm, track 135 cm, tyres depending on the circuit configuration 870/90 or 875/105 front, 880/120, 895/135, 935/135 or even the unconventional 850/150 rear, weight 1240 kg (pesage Dieppe).
Hémery drove a short stroke Benz to victory in the 1908 Petersburg-Moscow race. Hémery and Hanriot drove two cars in the 1908 GP de l'ACF and the 1908 GP of America/Savannah.
1) Barney Oldfield bought the ex-Hémery racer, used it for some dirt track records at Dallas in December 1909. Haupt was at the wheel of this car at Savannah/1910, turned over, the Benz "was a total wreck".
2) Erwin Bergdoll bought the ex-Hanriot car, was second in the "Free-for-all" at Elgin/1912 and the GP at Milwaukee/1912, and won the "Fourth Annual 200 Mile Race of the Quaker City Motor Club" at Philadelphia/1911 (in the 1911 GP at Savannah Bergdoll drove a Benz Auto Import long stroke car).
B) long stroke GP cars :
155/200 mm, 158 HP at 1500/min, other data see short stroke GP cars.
1) Erle drove the first long stroke GP Benz at Dieppe and Savannah, where he had a serious accident, the car was scrapped.
2) new car for Hémery/GP Savannah/1910.
3) new car for Bruce Brown/GP Savannah/1910.
4) new car for Hémery/GP Savannah/1911.
C) sprint/record cars :
185/200 mm, five main bearings, 184 HP at 1500/min, 200 HP at 1600/min, weight 1300 kg, other data see GP cars (for the Daytona records, Oldfield used tyres 32 x 4" front, 34 x 5" rear).
1) In the summer of 1909, Erle drove the first sprint/record car at Frankfurt and in the hillclimb to the Semmering. In October, Hémery drove it at Tervuren (near Brussel) and Brooklands.
Over the winter of 1909/10, Oldfield bought this first 21-litre Benz (which became the "Lighning Benz" and "Blitzen Benz"), giving back his ex-Hémery GP racer to the New York Benz Auto Import. Oldfield used the Benz for the famous records at Daytona. In October 1910, when Oldfield was suspended by the AAA, he sold the Benz to Ernie Moross. In 1911 Burman was at the wheel for the records at Daytona.
2) In 1910 Erle used a second 21-litre Benz for sprints in the western part of Europe.
3) Heim and Hörner used a third 21-litre for sprints in the eastern part of Europe.
4) In 1912 a new 21-litre was delivered to Moross/Burman (the "Jumbo Benz" and "Blitzen Benz no. 2").
5) In 1913 the fifth 21-litre was delivered to Hornsted/London.
6) In 1913 a 21-litre engine mounted in a 345 cm-wheelbase frame was delivered to Gent/Holland.
= = = = =
Don't know the cylinder dimensions of the car on Pedro's photo. If it is a short stroke GP car, it could be the ex-Hanriot = ex-Bergdoll car.
#8
fines
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Posted 01 October 2003 - 15:44
Well, as you can see, Robert is the real expert! 
About the car in the picture, I seem to recall that the weight-saving drillings in the chassis cross-member below the radiator would indicate it's a long-stroke car - Robert?
About the car in the picture, I seem to recall that the weight-saving drillings in the chassis cross-member below the radiator would indicate it's a long-stroke car - Robert?
#9
Bob Holcombe
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Posted 01 October 2003 - 17:11
Thanks guys. The only thing I had on the 1908 cars was that contained in Beverly Rae Kimes' "The Star and the Laurel: The Centennial History of Daimler, Mercedes & Benz" (1986), which is not nearly as detailed as Robert's specs. Also, she has the three '08 GP Benz going to Savannah, then Hemery's to Oldfield & later to Hearne, and Hanriot's to Bruce-Brown. Do any of the Savannah Benz survive?
Bob
Bob
#10
Bob Holcombe
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Posted 01 October 2003 - 20:42
Okay - think I answered off the internet my initial question about the provenance of the British National Motor Museum Benz as follows:
"According to the National Motor Museum this is a Benz racer in which Fritz Erle raced the 1908 Grand Prix de l'ACF at the Circuit de la Seine - Inferieure, close to Dieppe. The car had a 4 cylinder engine of 12.433 cc, which produced 120 HP. Erle finished the race (which was a good performance on itself), coming in 7th. The 1908 Grand Prix was a 10-lap race with a total distance of 769,88 km."
Robert - would this also be one of the Savannah Benz? Also unsure if this was the car at Goodwood earlier this year.
Bob
"According to the National Motor Museum this is a Benz racer in which Fritz Erle raced the 1908 Grand Prix de l'ACF at the Circuit de la Seine - Inferieure, close to Dieppe. The car had a 4 cylinder engine of 12.433 cc, which produced 120 HP. Erle finished the race (which was a good performance on itself), coming in 7th. The 1908 Grand Prix was a 10-lap race with a total distance of 769,88 km."
Robert - would this also be one of the Savannah Benz? Also unsure if this was the car at Goodwood earlier this year.
Bob
#11
robert dick
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Posted 02 October 2003 - 08:14
Correction of my post : Of course Gent is in Belgium, not in Holland! (I took the "autoroute" between Brussels and Ostende at least ten times and never stopped at Gent so that I finished by locating it in Holland)
= = = = = =
Drilled chassis member : It is correct that in 1908 at Dieppe this was a characteristic feature of the Erle Benz, the cars of Hémery and Hanriot having initially plain cross members. But in 1911 Bergdoll won at Philadelphia with the ex-Hanriot car (in addition to the photos which show a short stroke GP car, there are three different contemporary sources giving 155/160 mm for the Philadelphia winning car), this time with a drilled cross member resembling the one of the car in Pedro's photo.
= = = = = =
I don't have the Beverly Rae Kimes book/article, but what you quoted from her is correct :
- all three Dieppe cars went to Savannah in 1908;
- the ex-Hémery car (1908 Dieppe) was later driven by Oldfield (dirt track records) and Hearne (first Indianapolis events);
- the ex-Hanriot car (1908 Dieppe) was driven by Bruce Brown (for example at Daytona in 1910).
= = = = = =
The car on Pedro's photo is not the ex-Erle (1908 Dieppe and Savannah) car in its initial form. This car looked different. But it is possible that a lot of parts/pieces of the Erle car which had an accident at Savannah in 1908 were used to rebuilt the Benz of the National Motor Museum (perhaps in combination with pieces from the car driven by Haupt at Savannah in 1910, which also had an accident).
Since all GP Benzes started at Savannah either in 1908, 1910 or 1911, we can say that any surviving GP Benz is an ex-Savannah Benz. The problem is that nowadays probably nobody knows exactly which frames/engines/parts/pieces have been used to restore/rebuilt/reassemble the surviving cars.
= = = = = =
Drilled chassis member : It is correct that in 1908 at Dieppe this was a characteristic feature of the Erle Benz, the cars of Hémery and Hanriot having initially plain cross members. But in 1911 Bergdoll won at Philadelphia with the ex-Hanriot car (in addition to the photos which show a short stroke GP car, there are three different contemporary sources giving 155/160 mm for the Philadelphia winning car), this time with a drilled cross member resembling the one of the car in Pedro's photo.
= = = = = =
I don't have the Beverly Rae Kimes book/article, but what you quoted from her is correct :
- all three Dieppe cars went to Savannah in 1908;
- the ex-Hémery car (1908 Dieppe) was later driven by Oldfield (dirt track records) and Hearne (first Indianapolis events);
- the ex-Hanriot car (1908 Dieppe) was driven by Bruce Brown (for example at Daytona in 1910).
= = = = = =
The car on Pedro's photo is not the ex-Erle (1908 Dieppe and Savannah) car in its initial form. This car looked different. But it is possible that a lot of parts/pieces of the Erle car which had an accident at Savannah in 1908 were used to rebuilt the Benz of the National Motor Museum (perhaps in combination with pieces from the car driven by Haupt at Savannah in 1910, which also had an accident).
Since all GP Benzes started at Savannah either in 1908, 1910 or 1911, we can say that any surviving GP Benz is an ex-Savannah Benz. The problem is that nowadays probably nobody knows exactly which frames/engines/parts/pieces have been used to restore/rebuilt/reassemble the surviving cars.
#12
Bob Holcombe
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Posted 02 October 2003 - 19:02
Thanks everyone - this is far more information than I thought would be available on the '08 GP Benz cars. Now if I could just come up with a photo of the instrument panel on one of these cars!
The Kimes book contains a number of photographs of pre-WWI Mercedes and Benz GP cars that I've not seen before, including several from the Savannah races. I am not enough of an authority on the subject to make a judgement on the accuracy of the text; however, since the book seems to be something of an official history of Mercedes-Benz, would assume it to be based at least in part on company archives. I was very fortunate to find a very good condition copy in a used book store in Wilmington, NC a couple of years back for only $20.
Thanks again,
Bob Holcombe
The Kimes book contains a number of photographs of pre-WWI Mercedes and Benz GP cars that I've not seen before, including several from the Savannah races. I am not enough of an authority on the subject to make a judgement on the accuracy of the text; however, since the book seems to be something of an official history of Mercedes-Benz, would assume it to be based at least in part on company archives. I was very fortunate to find a very good condition copy in a used book store in Wilmington, NC a couple of years back for only $20.
Thanks again,
Bob Holcombe
#13
robert dick
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Posted 03 October 2003 - 08:37
Sources concerning Benz racing cars :
1) In Karl Ludvigsen's book "The Mercedes-Benz Racing Cars" you can find the development history and all technical data of these Benz racing cars.
2) The contemporary press published the bore/stroke dimensions for the following races :
July 1908 - GP de l'ACF Dieppe
# 6 Hémery - 155/160 mm
# 23 Hanriot - 155/160 mm
# 39 Erle - 155/200 mm
November 1908 - GP of America Savannah
# 8 Hémery - 155/160 mm
# 15 Hanriot - 155/160 mm
# 19 Erle - 155/200 mm
September 1910 - 100-mile Free-for-All Indianapolis
# 3 Hearne - 155/200 mm
October 1910 - Fairmount Park Philadelphia
# 5 Bergdoll - 155/160 mm
November 1910 - GP of America Savannah
# 9 Hémery - 155/200 mm
# 15 Bruce Brown - 155/200 mm
# 18 Haupt - 155/160 mm
October 1911 - Fairmount Park Philadelphia
# 8 Bergdoll - 155/160 mm
November 1911 - GP of America Savannah
# 47 Hearne - 155/200 mm
# 52 Bergdoll - 155/200 mm
# 56 Hémery - 155/200 mm
May 1912 - Santa Monica
# 25 Bruce Brown - 155/200 mm
September 1912 - Elgin
# 8 Bergdoll - 155/160 mm
October 1912 - GP of America Milwaukee
# 31 Burman - 155/200 mm
# 40 Bergdoll - 155/160 mm
# 42 Horan - 155/200 mm
August 1913 - GP de France Le Mans
# ? de Moraes - 155/200 mm
3) In the fifties Fritz Erle wrote to Alfred Neubauer :
"The 200 HP racing cars built from 1909 on had the designation RE, a four-cylinder engine of 185 mm bore and 200 mm stroke. In America one of them was called Blitzen-Benz. Five of these 200 HP racing cars have been built, a sixth frame was built in 1913 to the order of Mister M. Heje at Gent with ellongated wheelbase 345 cm for a four-seater sportscar."
Concerning the buyers of sprint/record/GP cars, Erle gave the following names (200 HP = sprint/record engine, 150 HP = GP engine) :
"M. Heje, Gent, 200 HP
Bob Burman, America, 200 HP
Traumann, Madrid, 200 HP
J. Ratis, Barcelona, 200 HP
De Moraes, Paris, 150 HP
Silva, Montairo-Porto, 150 HP
Rio de Janeiro, 150 HP
Bergdoll, Philadelphia, 150 HP"
With the data of (1), (2) and (3) everybody can build up his own history.
= = = = = = =
Question to our Spanish, Portuguese and South American friends :
Any infos concerning Traumann/Madrid, Ratis/Barcelona, Silva/Porto and the Benz sold to Rio?
1) In Karl Ludvigsen's book "The Mercedes-Benz Racing Cars" you can find the development history and all technical data of these Benz racing cars.
2) The contemporary press published the bore/stroke dimensions for the following races :
July 1908 - GP de l'ACF Dieppe
# 6 Hémery - 155/160 mm
# 23 Hanriot - 155/160 mm
# 39 Erle - 155/200 mm
November 1908 - GP of America Savannah
# 8 Hémery - 155/160 mm
# 15 Hanriot - 155/160 mm
# 19 Erle - 155/200 mm
September 1910 - 100-mile Free-for-All Indianapolis
# 3 Hearne - 155/200 mm
October 1910 - Fairmount Park Philadelphia
# 5 Bergdoll - 155/160 mm
November 1910 - GP of America Savannah
# 9 Hémery - 155/200 mm
# 15 Bruce Brown - 155/200 mm
# 18 Haupt - 155/160 mm
October 1911 - Fairmount Park Philadelphia
# 8 Bergdoll - 155/160 mm
November 1911 - GP of America Savannah
# 47 Hearne - 155/200 mm
# 52 Bergdoll - 155/200 mm
# 56 Hémery - 155/200 mm
May 1912 - Santa Monica
# 25 Bruce Brown - 155/200 mm
September 1912 - Elgin
# 8 Bergdoll - 155/160 mm
October 1912 - GP of America Milwaukee
# 31 Burman - 155/200 mm
# 40 Bergdoll - 155/160 mm
# 42 Horan - 155/200 mm
August 1913 - GP de France Le Mans
# ? de Moraes - 155/200 mm
3) In the fifties Fritz Erle wrote to Alfred Neubauer :
"The 200 HP racing cars built from 1909 on had the designation RE, a four-cylinder engine of 185 mm bore and 200 mm stroke. In America one of them was called Blitzen-Benz. Five of these 200 HP racing cars have been built, a sixth frame was built in 1913 to the order of Mister M. Heje at Gent with ellongated wheelbase 345 cm for a four-seater sportscar."
Concerning the buyers of sprint/record/GP cars, Erle gave the following names (200 HP = sprint/record engine, 150 HP = GP engine) :
"M. Heje, Gent, 200 HP
Bob Burman, America, 200 HP
Traumann, Madrid, 200 HP
J. Ratis, Barcelona, 200 HP
De Moraes, Paris, 150 HP
Silva, Montairo-Porto, 150 HP
Rio de Janeiro, 150 HP
Bergdoll, Philadelphia, 150 HP"
With the data of (1), (2) and (3) everybody can build up his own history.
= = = = = = =
Question to our Spanish, Portuguese and South American friends :
Any infos concerning Traumann/Madrid, Ratis/Barcelona, Silva/Porto and the Benz sold to Rio?
#14
fines
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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:55
sources: A Record of GP and Voit. Racing, Vol. 1 and Der Motorwagen 28/1913 - btw, this car had no drill holes in the cross member!Originally posted by robert dick
August 1913 - GP de France Le Mans
# 16 de Moraes - 155/200 mm
And I have to correct myself here: the big Benz had a capacity of 15.1 litres, not 20.1!
#15
fines
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Posted 26 February 2005 - 17:56
I just had a thought (which happens every once in a while)...
I have often seen the 1922/3 Benz Grand Prix car designated "RH", which at least one source proclaimed to mean "Rennwagen Heckmotor". Now I recalled that...
RA: 1907 Targa Florio Benz (130*140mm, 7433cc)
RB: 1907 Kaiserpreis Benz (145*120mm, 7926cc)
RC: 1908 Grand Prix Benz 120hp (155*160mm, 12076cc)
RD: 1908 Grand Prix Benz 150hp (155*200mm, 15095cc)
RE: 1909 Blitzen Benz 200hp (185*200mm, 21504cc)
RF: 1921 AVUS Benz 10/30 (80*130mm, 2614cc)
RG: 1921 AVUS Benz 6/18 (68*108mm, 1569cc)
RH: 1922 Grand Prix Benz (65*100mm, 1991cc)
or, less likely:
RA: 1903 Paris-Madrid Benz Parsifal (160*140mm, 11259cc)
RB: 1907 Targa Florio Benz (130*140mm, 7433cc)
RC: 1907 Kaiserpreis Benz (145*120mm, 7926cc)
RD: 1908 Grand Prix Benz
etc.
Possible?
I have often seen the 1922/3 Benz Grand Prix car designated "RH", which at least one source proclaimed to mean "Rennwagen Heckmotor". Now I recalled that...
... and it set me thinking (always a dangerous thing!). What does "RE" Stand for? Maybe it's just a sequence starting with "RA"? Like:Originally posted by robert dick
In the fifties Fritz Erle wrote to Alfred Neubauer :
"The 200 HP racing cars built from 1909 on had the designation RE (...)
RA: 1907 Targa Florio Benz (130*140mm, 7433cc)
RB: 1907 Kaiserpreis Benz (145*120mm, 7926cc)
RC: 1908 Grand Prix Benz 120hp (155*160mm, 12076cc)
RD: 1908 Grand Prix Benz 150hp (155*200mm, 15095cc)
RE: 1909 Blitzen Benz 200hp (185*200mm, 21504cc)
RF: 1921 AVUS Benz 10/30 (80*130mm, 2614cc)
RG: 1921 AVUS Benz 6/18 (68*108mm, 1569cc)
RH: 1922 Grand Prix Benz (65*100mm, 1991cc)
or, less likely:
RA: 1903 Paris-Madrid Benz Parsifal (160*140mm, 11259cc)
RB: 1907 Targa Florio Benz (130*140mm, 7433cc)
RC: 1907 Kaiserpreis Benz (145*120mm, 7926cc)
RD: 1908 Grand Prix Benz
etc.
Possible?
#16
robert dick
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Posted 01 March 2005 - 08:30
Originally posted by fines
Possible?
Difficult question!
I never saw a factory drawing with "R-" designation. Maybe "RE" stood for "Rennwagen" in general.
A detailed test and description of the 1910 Prince Henry Benz, which was considered as racing car, was published by Alois Riedler : "Wissenschaftliche Automobil-Wertung" (= "Scientific Automobile Valuation"), Berlin 1913. For Riedler the Benz (115/175 mm, OHV 4-valve head) was the "100-HP Benz racing car"; he did not mention any type designation.
