47 replies to this topic

[HONDA FANATIC]

thats true cauz now its enough time for Geoff Willis and his crew to make a winning car... we all know how pathetic 004 was Willis did an awsome job by at least making a FASTER car but his achievements r plagued by poor reliability mainly gearbox ... Honda engine is culprit only in Indy and Monaco.. thats not bad considering BMW, Mercedes and renault also suffered from blow ups.

next year suspension and gearbox will be all Honda so all i can say is BRING IT ON BABY!!!!!!!

[Enkei]

Obviously, being a little bit FANATIC is never wrong, but I think you're being waaay optimistic here. Especially when Sato joins next year, I fear the worst ;)

[Nova]

Honda will take one _ this _ year. Just wait to JV gets the SS

[lustigson]

It would be a nice goodbye present by Jacques if he did win... :

[HONDA FANATIC]

talking about suzuka special, last year 1 survived out of 4 and that was of Sato who finished 5th .. but this year only 2 cars that means both will .........

[CaptnMark]

I think this year they took the precaution of testing it in Indy We'll see if it helps.

[KWSN - DSM]

BAR will not win a race in 2003, and they will not win a race in 2004. They better perform uch better in 2004, or I think that the Honda board will start to reevaluate their investment in F1. Since Honda came back as a manufacturer they have been followed by a few other manufacturers, and basically seem as the worst of them:

BMW - Winning races with Williams in with a chance of the WCC, fought for the WDC until second to last race of 2003.

Reneault - An outright factory team, winning race(s?), taking poles, leading races.

Toyota - An outright factory team, leading a race, in general better placed than BAR.

BAR - Apart from this past weekend have shown nothing. The fact that they barely outscore Toyota this season, bode for being outscored next season.

I do think that Takuma Sato is a good driver, however I just can not belive that he is better than Jacques Villeneuve. It would be good for F1 to get a succesfull driver from another region than Europe or South America, but F1 should not be about nationality but about talent. The (apparent) insistance of Honda that Sato is to race BAR in 2004 is to the detriment of the idea of building a successfull F1 engine, running a successfull F1 team.

[gp19]

BULLSH!T


GP19

[Garagiste]

Honda's first victory?

Honda RA272, Richie Ginther, Mexico 1965. They should bring back the pinstriped overalls, IMO.

[baddog]

I tend to think BAR will do much better next year. Their car is improving all the time even though the reliability issues are serious.. but their apparent speed has been severely affected by the limitation of their tyres.. really they are a LOT better than they look this year. a LOT

Shaun

[Pilla]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Toyota - An outright factory team, leading a race, in general better placed than BAR.

How many laps did Jenson lead again? was it 15?

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by baddog
really they are a LOT better than they look this year. a LOT

Shaun

Why? I don't think so, the car is dead unreliable compared to the front runners. The tyres may have hurt them but there is still a lot to improve.

Maybe they'll improve a bit next year but I would be very surprised if they could compete with the top four teams.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Pilla


How many laps did Jenson lead again? was it 15?

Yeah, and he only made one pitstop while most had two at that point in the race.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Pilla


How many laps did Jenson lead again? was it 15?

Yes 15 and under as freakish circumstances as when da Matta led 11 laps (or what ever the number were). However did write "Apart from this past weekend have shown nothing", meaning that I do remember what happend this weekend.

[Pilla]

and what are the current constructor scores? I think BAR are doing at least as good a job as Toyota. Which is not a good enough job at all.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Pilla
and what are the current constructor scores? I think BAR are doing at least as good a job as Toyota. Which is not a good enough job at all.

This is only Toyota's second season and they've shown improvement over last year. Not so sure the same could be said of BAR.

[Pilla]

Toyota spent two years testing however

[zak]

I don't think that BAR has got it in them to win. The occasional podium, sure. Points finishes, definitely. Winning in the world of the big three, keep dreaming. Jordan's win this year was a fluke. Next year Renault may be closer to F/McL/Wms making it even harder for BAR to crack the points.

I'm still not sure about Button. Moments of great driving combined with moments of brain-fade. Sato? Well BAR had better build a lot of chasis' next year if he's going to be given a race seat.

[Jason]

Nothing I've seen this year suggests that BAR are even close to achieving it's first win. A new gearbox may help them finish more races, but won't make them any quicker. Honestly, Jaguar has shown more speed potential.

[Brian O Flaherty]

Originally posted by Enkei
Especially when Sato joins next year, I fear the worst ;)

I'm looking up recipe's for humble pie. You want that with or without a hint of apple ? Sato is genuinely quick.

[Bart]

BAR will only win in freakish circumstances like Brazil 2003 for the foreseeable future. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, frankly, deluded.

[Brian O Flaherty]

Originally posted by Pilla
and what are the current constructor scores? I think BAR are doing at least as good a job as Toyota. Which is not a good enough job at all.

Yeah just behind Sauber

[ERD1]

I have BAR 2.1% off the winner's pace last year and 1.6% this year. An improvement, but not nearly enough to be able to project a win at Suzuki or any time next year.

Cheers

[Brian O Flaherty]

Originally posted by ERD1
I have BAR 2.1% off the winner's pace last year and 1.6% this year. An improvement, but not nearly enough to be able to project a win at Suzuki or any time next year.

Cheers

Just to be a pain in the arse, what was Jordan's percentage off the pace this year ;)

[RRT1963]

Are B.A.R. and Honda forming their own breakaway series?
Don't forget Willis was passed over at Williams in favour of Sam Michael.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Pilla
and what are the current constructor scores? I think BAR are doing at least as good a job as Toyota. Which is not a good enough job at all.

It would help if you read all that I wrote instead of just the pieces that do not tie in with your world view.

[scdecade]

i think there a few things that are going to prevent BAR from approaching the front of the grid:

1) old windtunnel -- aero is everything in F1 and McL, Williams, Toyota, Sauber, and Jaguar have newer, more modern machines
2) bmw williams became more competitive after willis left
3) people blame honda for engine failures but i wonder... there are many things can cause an engine to fail that are chassis related -- cooling, flexing, fluid circulation to/from...
4) lack of a consistent topline driver -- button is 'ok' but seems inconsistent, jv has been outperformed by jb, sato is a rolling hazard
5) bridgestone tires -- if michelin maintain their current form then only ferrari can compete on bridgestones

except for the those 5 things i think BAR's chance to win a race next year are excellent.

[Ghostrider]

If Honda had stuck with Fisi, they would have had one victory now. They have only themselves to blame for lack of success.

GO FISI, GO SAUBER!!!!

[MaxScelerate]

Originally posted by Jason

Uhmm, BAR never had Fisi to beginning with. It's hard to stick with someone you never had.;)

But then, maybe with Fisi/jordan they would have been sooooo much faster than they wouldn't have made those silly-risky-gambly strategy that lucked them into a win?;)

[Jason]

Originally posted by MaxScelerate

But then, maybe with Fisi/jordan they would have been sooooo much faster than they wouldn't have made those silly-risky-gambly strategy that lucked them into a win?;)

I deleted that post. I thought he said BAR, not Honda.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Jason
I deleted that post. I thought he said BAR, not Honda.

, they are almost the same nowadays.

[fingers]

Originally posted by HONDA FANATIC
thats true cauz now its enough time for Geoff Willis and his crew to make a winning car... we all know how pathetic 004 was Willis did an awsome job by at least making a FASTER car but his achievements r plagued by poor reliability mainly gearbox ... Honda engine is culprit only in Indy and Monaco.. thats not bad considering BMW, Mercedes and renault also suffered from blow ups.

next year suspension and gearbox will be all Honda so all i can say is BRING IT ON BABY!!!!!!!

Ahhhh I see thats why B.A.R was so competitive at the slow twisty circuits !! You do not have a clue do you.

[Jhope]

Originally posted by RRT1963
Don't forget Willis was passed over at Williams in favour of Sam Michael.

Really? Are you sure it wasn't B.A.R going after Willis? And the last time I checked, Sam Michael's was not employed as Technical Director, but that of Chief Operations Engineer, which is a completly different ballgame. One designs the car with the help of an engineering staff, while the other makes sure all the engineering aspects of the weekend are in place, including strategy.

If you wanna see this in terms of Ferrari, Willis was the Rory Byrne of the operations and Sam Michael is the Ross Brawn.

B.A.R went after the services of Willis under the Pollock regime. He was sugested to Craig by Jacques who had worked with Willis at Williams, and was clearly impressed by his work. Williams were hesitant to let him go, but eventually realised Willis didn't want to be at Williams any longer. Williams reluctantly gave him his leave, and from there promoted Gavin Fisher to the role of Technical Director.

[Marlowe]

Originally posted by HONDA FANATIC
thats true cauz now its enough time for Geoff Willis and his crew to make a winning car... we all know how pathetic 004 was Willis did an awsome job by at least making a FASTER car but his achievements r plagued by poor reliability mainly gearbox ... Honda engine is culprit only in Indy and Monaco.. thats not bad considering BMW, Mercedes and renault also suffered from blow ups.

next year suspension and gearbox will be all Honda so all i can say is BRING IT ON BABY!!!!!!!

Don't forget the weight issue of the Honda engine.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Jhope
Really? Are you sure it wasn't B.A.R going after Willis? And the last time I checked, Sam Michael's was not employed as Technical Director, but that of Chief Operations Engineer, which is a completly different ballgame. One designs the car with the help of an engineering staff, while the other makes sure all the engineering aspects of the weekend are in place, including strategy.

If you wanna see this in terms of Ferrari, Willis was the Rory Byrne of the operations and Sam Michael is the Ross Brawn.

B.A.R went after the services of Willis under the Pollock regime. He was sugested to Craig by Jacques who had worked with Willis at Williams, and was clearly impressed by his work. Williams were hesitant to let him go, but eventually realised Willis didn't want to be at Williams any longer. Williams reluctantly gave him his leave, and from there promoted Gavin Fisher to the role of Technical Director.

Gavin Fisher is not Tech Director, Patrick Head is. Gavin is chief designer. As far as I know at least.
Geoff Willis was chief aerodynamicist at Williams.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Marlowe



Don't forget the weight issue of the Honda engine.

Indeed. I think weight is a major issue for Honda. Renault has been very competitive, this year, despite being down on power. Their low CG and lighter weight are a major reason for their success.

[HONDA FANATIC]

suzuka special has been successfully tested without any blow ups at Mugello.

[Rene]

Originally posted by HONDA FANATIC
suzuka special has been successfully tested without any blow ups at Mugello.

2 seconds off the pace....now I call that special!!!

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Ghostrider


Gavin Fisher is not Tech Director, Patrick Head is. Gavin is chief designer. As far as I know at least.
Geoff Willis was chief aerodynamicist at Williams.

Ok ok... I should have known that. But what I was trying to explain, is that Sam Michael and Geoff Willis were never competing for the same job within the Williams team, as RRT1963 was trying to say.

[Fonzy]

Honda and Bar=No Race Victory ever...

Anyone who think BAR is going to win is a joke, they suck and will always suck,,they will be the Jordan of F1 occaisionly they will be competitive and that is it. The Ferrari engine took 2 seconds a lap out of Button and passed him with ease, nice engine Honda keep building lawnmowers.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Fonzy
Honda and Bar=No Race Victory ever...

Anyone who think BAR is going to win is a joke, they suck and will always suck,,they will be the Jordan of F1 occaisionly they will be competitive and that is it. The Ferrari engine took 2 seconds a lap out of Button and passed him with ease, nice engine Honda keep building lawnmowers.

2 seconds per lap? I think not.
http://f1.racing-liv...929004558.shtml

By lap 23 Button was leading the race, as the front-runners took it in turns to pit and aquaplane off the track. On lap 27 Button was 12 seconds ahead of Ferrari's Michael Schumacher, and on course for his maiden podium finish.

It took Schumacher 17 laps to close the gap and on lap 37 the German overtook Button for first place.

12s/10laps = 1.2s per lap. Not to mention, you're assuming Button is an equal talent to Michael.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Rene


2 seconds off the pace....now I call that special!!!

LOL! You're using Michael's time as a yardstick to compare times set by Davidson and Sato. Don't you think Badoer's time would be a more appropiate comparison.;)

[gp19]

like I said
(( HONDA=BULLSH!T))

[HONDA FANATIC]

i am not talking about pace just that damn reliability.. man BAR's reliability sux even more than Minardi's...
neyway BAR's r always slow in testing... unfortunately also in race.

[Pilla]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


It would help if you read all that I wrote instead of just the pieces that do not tie in with your world view.

Of course I read everything, i'm not a fan of BAR, however I felt like correcting you because I think that you are wrong, and inventing conclusions that are based on facts that are fragile at best.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Jhope
Ok ok... I should have known that. But what I was trying to explain, is that Sam Michael and Geoff Willis were never competing for the same job within the Williams team, as RRT1963 was trying to say.

Yepp I knew that you meant that, just wanted to clearify a little for those interested.

[gp19]

BAR=
B is for BULLSH!T
A is for AUTOMOBILE
R is for RACING

BAT=
B IS FOR BLOWUP
A is FOR AUTOMOBILE
T IS FOR TEAM

HONDA=
H IS FOR HOW
O IS FOR OUR
N IS FOR NATION
D IS FOR DESTROYS
A IS FOR AUTOMOBILE

GP19

[ERD1]

Originally posted by Brian O Flaherty


Just to be a pain in the arse, what was Jordan's percentage off the pace this year ;)

1.8% last year and 3.1% this year. A sad state of affairs.

Cheers