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Second life of some F1 chassis


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#1 Théodore33

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 17:05

Hy,

Does anyone know examples of F1 chassis which were renamed by another team which entered them in grand prix ?

I know :
Merzario A4 - ex Kaushen
Minardi PS04 - ex Arrows A23.

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#2 dolomite

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 17:32

Hmm....
Eiffelland (ex-March 711) 1972
Wolf-Williams FW05 (ex Hesketh 308C) 1976
Appollon (ex-Williams FW03(?)) 1977
ATS HS1 (ex-Penske PC4) 1978
Fittipaldi F7 (ex-Wolf WR8/9) 1980

#3 conjohn

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 17:36

1978: Penske PC4 -> ATS PC4
1979: ATS PC4 -> ATS HS1

1990: Onyx ORE1B -> Monteverdi ORE1B

#4 conjohn

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 17:44

1975: Lola T371 -> Hill GH (well, the same team really....)
1976: Ensign N175 -> Boro 001

#5 ensign14

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 18:25

McGuire BM1 was a Williams FW04 (I think)

#6 rdrcr

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 19:15

1978 / 79 - Lotus 78's and 79's rebadged as Team Rebaque cars

#7 uechtel

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 19:43

1992 Coloni F3C -> Andrea Moda Formula (not really racing of course)
1992 Simtek S 921 -> Andrea Moda Formula
1993 Reynard -> Pacific PRC 1
1990 FIRST -> Life L 190
1983 Alfa Romeo -> Osella FA1E
1962 Emeryson -> ENB
1950 Maserati -> Milano
1951 Maserati -> OSCA 4500
1954 Veritas Meteor -> Klenk Meteor
1968 Lola -> Honda RA 301
1950 Ferrari 125/375 -> Thin Wall Special

and a very famous one:

1954-56 Lancia D55 -> Ferrari-Lancia -> Ferrari 801

#8 Frank de Jong

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 20:01

The not-so-famous Apollon-Fly (ex-Williams FW03 indeed) never raced.
Politoys FX3 - Iso FX3B (same team)
Shadow DN9 - Arrows FA1 :lol:
Shadow DN12 - Theodore TR2
Alfa Romeo 183T - Osella FA1F (the first one, as far as I know).
The Eifelland was a March 721, by the way.

#9 D-Type

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 23:42

The first F1 AGS, the Motori Moderni engined JH21C used a recycled Renault tub. David Hodges's book does not make it clear whether the JH22 also had a Renault tub.


Edited by D-Type, 24 July 2022 - 16:56.


#10 fines

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 08:58

Some corrections:

The ATS HS1 was not a Penske chassis, it was built new at March.
The Rebaque was not a Lotus chassis, it was built new at Penske.
Only the first Milano and OSCA 4500G were Maseratis, the later cars were built new from scratch.

Does your world begin in 1950, or are you interested in some older cars?

1904 Turcat-Méry => 1904 De Dietrich
1904 Darracq => 1904 Opel and 1904 Weir
1913 Mason => 1914 Duesenberg
1915 Duesenberg => 1916 Crawford
1920 Frontenac => 1920 Monroe
1920 ReVere => 1922 Disteel
1922 Rolland-Pilain => 1924 Schmid => 1925 Guyot
etc. etc.

#11 Geza Sury

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:18

The most recent example:
Arrows A23 => Minardi PS4

#12 Falcadore

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 04:27

Originally posted by Geza Sury
The most recent example:
Arrows A23 => Minardi PS4


Ferrari F2003-GA => Sauber C23

#13 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 07:55

Ferrari F2003-GA => Sauber C23



Really ????

#14 conjohn

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 13:42

Originally posted by fines
Some corrections:

The ATS HS1 was not a Penske chassis, it was built new at March.


According to Hodges they were 'reworked' (A-Z of Grand Prix Cars) or 'developed' (A-Z of Formula Racing Cars 1945-1990) by Robin Herd from the ATS PC4, which was really the Penske PC4. If this means that he took the actual chassis and fiddled with them, then I would call them Penske chassis. If, on the other hand, he designed a new chassis, from the ground up, just using the Penske as a reference, I would call them ATS chassis.
Somehow, I think the former is more probable...

No such problems with the Token RJ02 -> Safir RJ02 in 1975; admittedly used only in two non-championship races, but still...

Originally posted by Barry Boor
quote (from Falcadore) :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferrari F2003-GA => Sauber C23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really ????


A remote possibility if the rule that you have to design your own chassis is dropped for next year, as has been proposed...

#15 petefenelon

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 15:47

Originally posted by conjohn


According to Hodges they were 'reworked' (A-Z of Grand Prix Cars) or 'developed' (A-Z of Formula Racing Cars 1945-1990) by Robin Herd from the ATS PC4, which was really the Penske PC4. If this means that he took the actual chassis and fiddled with them, then I would call them Penske chassis. If, on the other hand, he designed a new chassis, from the ground up, just using the Penske as a reference, I would call them ATS chassis.
Somehow, I think the former is more probable...

No such problems with the Token RJ02 -> Safir RJ02 in 1975; admittedly used only in two non-championship races, but still...



A remote possibility if the rule that you have to design your own chassis is dropped for next year, as has been proposed...



Then again there were quite a few March bits in the Penske anyway, after they dropped their first car and replaced it with a March quite a bit of the March found itself in the replacement Penske, didn't it?;) So as far as I can tell Herd found himself developing a developed version of his own car!

I seem to recall that there was a German bloke who had a done and dusted deal to buy and run a pair of Jaguars (why, for God's sake!!!!) next year - it's all gone quiet on that front though.

#16 conjohn

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 16:41

Originally posted by petefenelon
Then again there were quite a few March bits in the Penske anyway, after they dropped their first car and replaced it with a March quite a bit of the March found itself in the replacement Penske, didn't it?;) So as far as I can tell Herd found himself developing a developed version of his own car!


The Penske PC4 may have been a March, twice removed (is that the phrase?), as the PC3 was
based on the March 751, and the PC4 carried over some of this. But they were built as Penskes, whereas it can be debated if the ATS HS1 was built as an ATS... and I suspect not...

#17 David Force

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 09:20

Do Lotus' becoming John Player Specials count?

#18 uechtel

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 09:49

the rule says it has to be "another" team...

#19 Falcadore

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 13:54

Does NART count as 'another' team? :)

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#20 conjohn

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 15:54

Originally posted by Falcadore
Does NART count as 'another' team? :)


I would count NART as 'another team', but they still called the car 'Ferrari', didn't they? ;)

#21 EvilPhil

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 16:02

1994/1995 Benetton > 1995 Ligier

#22 petefenelon

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 16:06

Originally posted by EvilPhil
1994/1995 Benetton > 1995 Ligier


Never actually proven ;)

#23 mario donnini

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 15:01

I'd add ATS (1963) in Derrington (1964)

#24 mario donnini

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 15:11

March 721 in Eifelland (1972)

#25 mario donnini

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 15:26

Maserati 250 F in Tec Mec (1959)
Token 1974 in Safir (1975)
Ferrari in Thin Wall Special (First half ’50)
Prost in Dart (2002) (forbidden)

#26 mario donnini

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 15:34

Ferrari 166 in Biondetti Jaguar (1950 Gp Italia, Monza)

#27 mario donnini

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 15:41

Ferrari 166 in Biondetti Jaguar (1950 Gp Italia, Monza)

#28 chris amon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 06:59

BTW I am new here. A friend of mine told me that the Nostalgia Forum would suit me. :D

The Apollon was born in 1973 as a Williams IR03, in 1974 rebadged Williams FW03. Loris Kessel was also entered for the 1976 Italian GP with exactly the same car, still known as Williams FW03, but the car didn't turn up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dolomite
[B]Hmm....
Appollon (ex-Williams FW03(?)) 1977

#29 Rob Ryder

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 07:20

Welcome 'chris amon', I think you will enjoy it here but don't let it become addictive ;)

Two small points from your first post... I think that the Apollon was from the Williams chassis FW03/IR04 and not IR03. Also, in 1976 Loris Kessel was entered in the Italian GP by RAM Racing in a Brabham BT44B.
Rob

#30 chris amon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 07:51

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Welcome 'chris amon', I think you will enjoy it here but don't let it become addictive ;)

Two small points from your first post... I think that the Apollon was from the Williams chassis FW03/IR04 and not IR03. Also, in 1976 Loris Kessel was entered in the Italian GP by RAM Racing in a Brabham BT44B.
Rob


It is easy to get addicted to the good old days. My first acquaintance with motorracing was the 1967 Dutch GP and since then I never looked back, although I seldomly visit events since the late 80's, simply losing interest, slowly but surely.

BTW Loris Kessel's BT44 B was driven to a lucky victory by 'El Lole' in the 1975 German GP.

#31 chris amon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 08:39

Ensign N175 - Boro 001 :p :p

#32 ian senior

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 08:55

The ATS,which became the Derrington-Francis-ATS, or was that modified too much to count? And was it (more or less) the same team?

#33 chris amon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 10:05

Originally posted by ian senior
The ATS,which became the Derrington-Francis-ATS, or was that modified too much to count? And was it (more or less) the same team?

It was (not (more or less) a new team. Derrington-Francis, founded by Stirling Moss' former chiefmechanic Francis and enginetuner Derrington, only acquired the 1963 spec ATS 100, not the team or any of its employers.

#34 petefenelon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 10:25

Originally posted by mario donnini
March 721 in Eifelland (1972)


Re-reborn as a more standard 721, I think John Watson made his F1 debut in it, did he not?

#35 petefenelon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 10:26

Originally posted by D-Type
The first F1 AGS, the Motori Moderni engined JH21C used a recycled Renault tub. David Hodges's book does not make it clear whether the JH22 also had aREnault tub.


I've seen reported this both ways - both "a Renault tub" and "tooling from the unbuilt RE70"....

#36 chris amon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 10:55

Originally posted by petefenelon


Re-reborn as a more standard 721, I think John Watson made his F1 debut in it, did he not?

Yes, he did, in the Players Nr. 6 GP in Phoenix Park. It was actually a March 721/4.

#37 chris amon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 12:04

Adapted to F5000:
March 731/3 (run by Toine Hezemans, fitted with 3.4 Cosworth V6)

Adapted to CanAm:
March 811 RM05 / RM06
March 821 RM08
McLaren M23 / 02
Williams FW07B / 06
Williams FW07C / 15
Theodore TY02 / 01
Surtees TS19 / 04
Ensign N180 B / MN05
Cooper T66 F1-2-63 (renamed Cooper T90)
Cooper T86B (renamed Cooper T90)
Cooper T86C F1-3-68 (renamed Cooper T90)

#38 Haddock

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 17:56

The most recent example:
Arrows A23 => Minardi PS4



Not the case. The Minardi PS04 is a very slightly rehashed Minardi PS03 (and I believe the tubs are the same ones that were running as Minardi PS02s - making that Minardi perhaps the longest serving chassis in twenty or so years). Minardi did run the Arrows A23s it bought in testing but found they were no quicker than their own car.

I have dim memories of being told that the first Eurobrun chassis was a reworked Alfa Romeo 184T but I don't see the resemblance myself. There were stories at the time that the first Forti chassis was little more than a reworked Fondmetal GR02, and I'm sure the unraced 1992 March ended up on the grid as something else, but I can't remember what just now

#39 anjakub

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 20:09

Adapted to Interserie:
Arrows FA16
Coloni
Ensign N180B
Fondmetal FA1
Footwork FA11
Footwork FA12
Footwork FA13
Jordan 191
March 821
Minardi M190 (#005)
Minardi M195B (#03)
Williams FW07C

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#40 petefenelon

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 21:59

Originally posted by Haddock

I have dim memories of being told that the first Eurobrun chassis was a reworked Alfa Romeo 184T but I don't see the resemblance myself. There were stories at the time that the first Forti chassis was little more than a reworked Fondmetal GR02, and I'm sure the unraced 1992 March ended up on the grid as something else, but I can't remember what just now



The '92 March is better known to us as Lotus 107 (or was it 109), IIRC.

#41 dolomite

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 22:23

Originally posted by petefenelon


The '92 March is better known to us as Lotus 107 (or was it 109), IIRC.


ACBC must have been spinning in his grave....

#42 chris amon

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 07:10

Aerodynamicist Hans Fouche and designer Chris Radage, involved in the design of the Forti FG01-95, used to work for Rinland's Astauto design office which penned the Fondmetal GR02, so there is a strong connection between both cars.

#43 chris amon

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 07:24

The AGS JH22 was a 'renamed' 1986 spec JH21C. It was based on a Renault tub, probably the RE60 ?

#44 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 07:48

Originally posted by Haddock


Not the case. The Minardi PS04 is a very slightly rehashed Minardi PS03 (and I believe the tubs are the same ones that were running as Minardi PS02s - making that Minardi perhaps the longest serving chassis in twenty or so years). Minardi did run the Arrows A23s it bought in testing but found they were no quicker than their own car.


Well... Minardi did run the A23 in tests as the PS04, but it wasn't actually raced.
The rehashed chassis that was raced (and still is...) was the PS04B

So:

A23 - > PS04
PS02 -> PS03 -> PS04B

#45 thecako

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 15:58

the tecno goral 1973 => the Amon in 1974 ? :confused:

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#46 Bonde

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 17:04

Afraid not - the only things the 'Goral' and the Amon have in common are the designer, Gordon Fowell.

#47 Steffen

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 18:41

I know it doesn't fit that good in this thread, but the Rial ARC1 had a very similar chassis to the Ferrari F1-87 and F1-87/88C. Both had been produced by Gustav Brunner.

#48 dbw

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 16:56

indy cars???

this could be an entire thread itself....however i was thinking about almost every car harry miller built...rear drive 91's and 122's..same for the front drives,,the finite number of cars made by miller went on to spawn a huge number of permeations ..one man cars became two man cars [and often back again!] ; chassis that began as eights had miller [or offy] fours installed...and we can't forget the miller-fords..raced once with front drive ford V-8's a handful of cars blossomed into offy powered fd's, twin engined four wheel drives , and even the platform for the mighty novi .

all these cars had different owners,names and guises... and were, on the whole, quite successful. even in the years after miller's death bits of his cars from the twenties were run on vast numbers of now forgotton dirt cars.."specials" comingled with the usual ford components...

all in all a good run i'd say.

#49 Mark A

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 15:16

Originally posted by uechtel

1993 Reynard -> Pacific PRC 1



That's a difficult one to quantify. The design and data for the Reynard was bought by Benetton and used very successfully, however the design was later re-hashed and became the Pacific.

#50 petefenelon

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 18:59

Originally posted by Mark A



That's a difficult one to quantify. The design and data for the Reynard was bought by Benetton and used very successfully, however the design was later re-hashed and became the Pacific.


Actually, no. The formal IPR was bought by Ligier (and presumably squandered, because the last pre-Flav Ligiers were crude Williams copies), but the people mostly went off to Benetton.

IPR issues meant that the Pacific couldn't use the data sold to Ligier; the PR01 started life in late '92, based on the Reynard f3000 design (redone to have a high nose); for 'marketing reasons' the car was also constrained to look like a Benetton -- so it was probably a "cousin" to the abortive Reynard F1 project.

Keith Wiggins then failed to get a budget together, so he couldn't race the car in '93. What might've been a just-about-acceptable lower-midfield car in '93 became a no-hoper in '94.