11 replies to this topic

[Paul Newby]

Ray Bell has written an interesting article in Motor Racing Australia on the "works supported" Group A Maserati bi-turbo that featured in the 1987 World Touring Car Championship. I know that Ray will read this - any chance that you may be able to finish the story off for us? - the MRA editing leaves a lot to be desired (same with your Charger story) and not all the printed copy made it onto the printed page.

The article concentrates on the Australian adventure (the Bathurst and Calder Park rounds) and quotes Kevin Bartlett, who was drafted into the team alongside regular drivers Bruno Giacomelli and Armin Hahne. Bartlett called on the assistance of local Ralliart engineer Bob Riley to help sort the Maserati and he is quoted as well.

Predictably there is little in the way of positive comments about the car (and team's) performance in what was really something of a -debacle. Unfortunately the article doesn't cover the reasons behind developing the car in the first place (I presume 5,000 had been built) nor how it was developed and there is minimal detail about the European races that it competed in.

On paper the car should've been a winner. Was it a case of poor homologation, insufficient factory support and unrealistic expectations?

Did these cars compete in national series after 1987?

[dmj]

Some details here:
http://forums.atlasf...hlight=maserati

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
Ray Bell has written an interesting article in Motor Racing Australia on the "works supported" Group A Maserati bi-turbo that featured in the 1987 World Touring Car Championship. I know that Ray will read this - any chance that you may be able to finish the story off for us? - the MRA editing leaves a lot to be desired (same with your Charger story) and not all the printed copy made it onto the printed page.

Yes, Steve Normoyle e.mailed me to apologise about the end 'dropping off' the Charger story, though he didn't mention this one.

In fact, it was only one word!

"oddjob"

In the case of the Charger story there was rather more... "Chrysler’s backroom boys and boardroom renegades had made a big impact" was the phrase with which I ended this 4300+ word tale.

It was some kind of computer glitch, just unnoticed at the time of going to press. Understandable, I would say, with the pressure Steve and the boys are under as they put out a good quality publication. I was frankly surprised to see the testing photograph of the shortened ute (pickup) they used for testing, for instance.

And then there's contributors like me who get stuff in late all the time... in this case largely because of the difficulty I had finding Leo to talk to him. Which I never did... then he turns up bright and breezy at the Speed on Tweed!

You can understand how much more complete the story would have been if I'd been able to include some of his comments about the testing he did, I'm sure?

In the same way, Bartlett and Riley were really unable to remember much about the Maserati debacle because it was something they had to put behind them... like the comment that headed the article... the only time it ran anywhere near right was when something was broken and caused that... the wastegate jammed shut and gave it a stack of boost!

[Paul Newby]

Thanks DMJ. I did do a quick search, but put in Maserati bi-turbo. There were probably too many threads on 250Fs and the like so I didn't go through them all.

What I liked about Group A touring cars was the variety of machines entered, especially the class cars. Plenty of manufacturers bothered to homologate suitable (and not so suitable) cars but only Ford and BMW, and to a lesser extent Alfa Romeo were very serious about it back in 1987.

IIRC, just as oddball as the Maserati bi-turbo, was the Alfa 33 that turned up at Bathurst. It didn't have a snowflake in hell of being competitive with the best Toyota Corollas (9s a lap slower) but it added to the variety by just being there. So did the lone Alfa 75 Turbo (after all the factory cars were withdrawn) which Cesario crashed on the top of the mountain.

Now if the numbers for homologation and evolution were greater than 5000 and 500 respectively, a certain Nissan Skyline GT-R didn't come along (admittedly a magic car, the definitive Group A weapon) and the homologation process sorted out (possibly a modern day "parity" formula?) maybe Group A would have survived longer. Certainly the cars were more technically interesting than the V8Supercars we now have in Australia.

I've almost finished reading the excellent Bernie's Game (if ever there was an author across his topic, its Terry Lovell) and I was surprised that the WTCC was never mentioned. I can see why Bernie was worried that the WTCC could be a threat to F1. The manufacturers like Ford, BMW and Alfa Romeo were tipping a lot more money into this series than F1 at the time and as FIA deemed F1 to be the only "real" international series I could see why Ecclestone would want to replace it with a series he could control like the doomed Silohuette formula for 1988. And to think that the European Touring Car C'ship was scrapped after 1988 - it was the beginning of the end of Group A and touring cars has never been a world-unifying force since, which suits Bernie just fine.




Ray, I can understand that Bartlett and Riley would be a little hazy about the whole Maserati affair, and now why Bruno Giacomelli (who didn't qualify at Bathurst ) didn't return your call.

[Bruce Moxon]

I can remember talk around the traps (Stewart Wilson told me) that Bartlett was "going to race a Biturbo" when Group A came along. Never happened and he ended up with the Mitsubishi Starion.

I agree with Paul - the racing was great - there was lots of variety of cars - in 1985 and 86 we had factory or factory - supported cars from Volvo, Ford, Holden, Alfa-Romeo, Toyota, Mitsubishi and BMW. The cars looked great, slid about, bounced off ripple strips and actually looked like cars.

Bruce Moxon

[Paul Newby]

Bruce, I thought that Bartlett was looking at driving the Maserati in the ATCC (was it 1988, his last year?) Still, after Bathurst '87 he probably thought better of it.... I know that Tony Graziani was selling quite a few to bi-turbos unsuspecting customers.

This reminds me of the fact that I've driven about a 1000kms in a '91 manual 2.8 Spyder. This was one quick motor car, especially when the turbos spooled in, but the steering was lifeless and light, its handling was an acquired taste and build quality and reliability were ! It actually belonged to the mother(!) of a friend of mine and we took it down from Sydney to Echuca for a club rally. (we actually won our class on navigation and speed events and pocketed a couple of rally jackets.) I can remember that the stretch from West Wyalong to Hay (250km) took less than 2 hours and we were often on the wrong side of 160 ... We did some sprints and slaloms (wet!) at Shepparton and it was quick, but a bit wild. On the way back I wound it up to an indicated 220km/h outside Ardlethan. Not too sure I'd try it again, though.

My friend's mother graduated to another Spyder, this time a '93 model with the revised front, bigger wheel and Getrag gearbox as opposed to the dogleg ZF - I never drove it. She kept this a fair time, but didn't do a lot of kms. It was even less reliable than the '91 - mainly electrical. Her husband had a 430 Auto (the four door Maserati) and this was quicker than the manual - and even scarier...

Said mother finally saw the light and now drives a manual Boxster - which is not bad for someone in her 60s ...

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
I can remember talk around the traps (Stewart Wilson told me) that Bartlett was "going to race a Biturbo" when Group A came along. Never happened and he ended up with the Mitsubishi Starion.

I agree with Paul - the racing was great - there was lots of variety of cars - in 1985 and 86 we had factory or factory - supported cars from Volvo, Ford, Holden, Alfa-Romeo, Toyota, Mitsubishi and BMW. The cars looked great, slid about, bounced off ripple strips and actually looked like cars.

Bruce Moxon

Bruce,
Rather than a Bi-turbo, I had previously thought that Bartlett was looking at the Audi Quattro turbo, even to the point of importing a maroon coloured one into Australia that never got caged up as the Mitsubishi deal came along.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
I can remember talk around the traps (Stewart Wilson told me) that Bartlett was "going to race a Biturbo" when Group A came along. Never happened and he ended up with the Mitsubishi Starion.

I agree with Paul - the racing was great - there was lots of variety of cars - in 1985 and 86 we had factory or factory - supported cars from Volvo, Ford, Holden, Alfa-Romeo, Toyota, Mitsubishi and BMW. The cars looked great, slid about, bounced off ripple strips and actually looked like cars.

Bruce Moxon

Bruce one thing I'll always remember from the era was on the 1985 Bathurst tape - Ch.7 went to the camera under the JPS bridge on Con-Rod and the sounds it picked up from the cars at full noise coming underneath.....

V12 Jag, BMW 6, V8 Ford, V8 Holden, Alfa Romeo V6, Volvo turbo, Mitsubishi turbo, V8 Rover.....

[Bruce Moxon]

KB had Kerry Packer's Quattro at his place for a while - Racing Car News (or maybe Racing Car) tested it in about 1985.

I would have thought a 2.1 litre car with all that weight would have been a bit slow - but you never know. Did anyone ever race one in Europe?


Bruce Moxon

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
KB had Kerry Packer's Quattro at his place for a while - Racing Car News (or maybe Racing Car) tested it in about 1985.
I would have thought a 2.1 litre car with all that weight would have been a bit slow - but you never know. Did anyone ever race one in Europe?
Bruce Moxon

Well, sort of...
The Quattro itself was never homologated in group A as far as I know; but the 200 Turbo was.
It raced in the early DTM in 1986, it was raced in France and finally in Transam in 1988.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
.....I can remember that the stretch from West Wyalong to Hay (250km) took less than 2 hours and we were often on the wrong side of 160.....

Back in 1972 I did that stretch in well under two hours, perhaps 1h 40...

Difference was, I guess, that it was legal.

Shame the 180B was an automatic, however... might have been a bit faster in a manual. As it was, it was always on the other side of 160kmh. The right side, that is...

[racer69]

Not sure on the exact model, but one of the cars Bartlett looked at back in 1979 just prior to purchasing the Camaro was an Audi.

On the Bi-Turbo, Mike Oliver was looking to race one in 1989 in the ATCC, but didn't happen.

A factory (or factory-supported) Bi-Turbo was run in the 1988 ETC by Thomas Lindstrom and Bernard Santal, with about the same success as the 1987 WTCC campaign.