14 replies to this topic

[Vrba]

It's an interesting fact but, with the exception of 1952 and 1953 when Championship races were organized for Formula 2 cars, no Formula 2 or Formula 3000 European/International Champion has ever managed to win the WDC. Montoya came close this year, Peterson and Ickx were runners-up but no one ever won the title. But it's not just that: with the notable exception of JPM and in part Panis and Heidfeld, no F3000 champion since 1990 made any significant impact in F1, many of them even never got the chance in F1.
It seems a bit strange that law of averages didn't intervene here yet. Or there is something fundamentally wrong with that single-seater category....

Hrvoje

[Todd]

Even if there is something wrong with the category today, it is a category that has seen a lot of change through the years. There have been competitive grids. There have been multiple chassis. There have been multiple engine suppliers. There have been times when neither talent nor funding were as lean as they are today. I think it is partially a matter of chance, and partially a trend to identify the cream of the crop prior to them completing a second season in F2/F3000.

[Jason]

I think some of the brighest stars are plucked before they have a chance to compete in F3000. BTW, didn't established drivers like Jim Clark compete in F2 way back when. I'm not so sure I'd consider it a feeder series.

[Slyder]

If you ask me, most of it has to do with money too.

For example, a guy like Giorgio Pantano deserved an F1 ride more than Nicolas Kiesa for that matter.

Many talented drivers are hung out to dry while paydrivers always had to step in. That's something that should be addressed and stopped.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Slyder
If you ask me, most of it has to do with money too.

For example, a guy like Giorgio Pantano deserved an F1 ride more than Nicolas Kiesa for that matter.

Many talented drivers are hung out to dry while paydrivers always had to step in. That's something that should be addressed and stopped.

Yes, but how many of those "paydrivers" have won a WDC title? Even the past F3000 champs that have made it into F1 haven't won a WDC title, which has nothing to do with "paydrivers."

[Slyder]

Well, that was one point I was bringing out, it wasn't the WHOLE issue of course. The main thing that I'm attacking is that in several cases money gives you a seat in F1, not talent.

Of course, thats not always the case, I'm very aware of that. Guys like Erik Comas, Luca Badoer, Vicenzo Sospiri, Ricardo Rosset, Alex Zanardi amongst others never made it big. Especially Comas, Zanardi and Badoer.

One other factor though is that it also has to do with the teams they choose to race with, and if you sign on with a backmarker or a midfielder, that limits your chances of success don't it. Several of these guys never had a chance of getting on with a top team, and that is also a contributing factor.

Hell, Jan Magnussen is also a glaring example; he didn't race in F3000 but was (and IS) a brilliant driver, whom unfortunately ended up in the right place (F1) at the wrong time (Stewart when it was still trying to come through).

Zanardi's case though was more bad luck than anything else if you look at his Williams days. The car was honestly not competitive, PLUS, he had an inexperienced engineer. Right there is the source of the problem why Zanardi never made it big. Also the fact that Zanardi was unfairly booted out after just one year. Had he stayed with the team, he would've shown a lot more than what he did that year.

[RJL]

Originally posted by Jason

Yes, but how many of those "paydrivers" have won a WDC title? "

Three time WDC Niki Lauda comes to mind...

[Vrba]

Formula 2 champions during the late 1960s and 1970s include many formidable racers (Ickx, Regazzoni, Peterson, Jarier, Depailler, Laffite, Jabouille, Arnoux....) yet no one was able to capture the WDC title. It was different times back then and more-less everyone of certain quality got his chance in Formula 1, for indeed all these quoted above had the rides with the top teams for many years, yet none won the WDC. That's what I consider a bit strange.

Hrvoje

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Jason
I think some of the brighest stars are plucked before they have a chance to compete in F3000. BTW, didn't established drivers like Jim Clark compete in F2 way back when. I'm not so sure I'd consider it a feeder series.

Yes, Clark did indeed die in a Formula 2 race in 1968. Rindt was knows as the king of F2. Graham Hill, Stewart, McLaren, Siffert, Brabham and plenty of other Grand Prix drivers competed in F2 in 1960s. But they weren't eligible for points so they don't feature as champions although they won plenty of races. However, they were already established Formula 1 stars so their results in Formula 2 should be regarded differently than results of young drivers who used Formula 2 as a stepping stone to Formula 1.

Hrvoje

[Slyder]

Originally posted by RJL


Three time WDC Niki Lauda comes to mind...

YEah, but at least Lauda had talent. Most of these hacks today don't. Maybe Pedro Diniz, and that's a BIG maybe

[Slyder]

Originally posted by Vrba
Formula 2 champions during the late 1960s and 1970s include many formidable racers (Ickx, Regazzoni, Peterson, Jarier, Depailler, Laffite, Jabouille, Arnoux....) yet no one was able to capture the WDC title. It was different times back then and more-less everyone of certain quality got his chance in Formula 1, for indeed all these quoted above had the rides with the top teams for many years, yet none won the WDC. That's what I consider a bit strange.

Hrvoje

Several factors, ranging, to machinery, to injuries, choices, bad luck, you name it.

1970, Ickx had little if no chance of getting the title even if Jochen Rindt were alive.

Peterson wasn't a car developer and fought against Fittipaldi giving Stewart the title in 1973, and played second fiddle to Andretti in 78.

Jarier AFAIK, never had a good ride.

Laffite had several chances, but mechanical failures, accidents and fighting with Depallier, and Pironi hampered his chances.

Depallier wasn't the same after his hand-gliding accident.

Arnoux and Jabouille were plagued by the crappy unreliability of the Renault. Jabuille's career would end prematurely in the fog in Canada in 1980, while Arnoux shifted from one team to another. I think what killed Arnoux's career was when he moved into the underpowered Ligier, that was what did it.

But yes, it's nevertheless interesting that no F2/F3000 champ has never been F1 champ, which may arouse serious questions of how the feeder series are composed.

[shaggy]

Damon Hill did race in the F3000 serie and he did win the F1 WDC.

Of course, to his credit, he did not win the F3000 championship

shaggy

[Slyder]

Now THAT's another strange one.

And you thought the Twilight Zone is just fiction

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Todd
Even if there is something wrong with the category today, it is a category that has seen a lot of change through the years. There have been competitive grids. There have been multiple chassis. There have been multiple engine suppliers. There have been times when neither talent nor funding were as lean as they are today. I think it is partially a matter of chance, and partially a trend to identify the cream of the crop prior to them completing a second season in F2/F3000.

Exactly. I'd add, what I belive Jason already mentioned, that the bets are probably usually picked straight from F3 or other series below/before entering F2/F3000.

[Bex37]

So, that must mean that Justin Wilson has no chance against Mark Webber in F1.