59 replies to this topic

[blip]

There is an interesting clip on f1onboard.com - the Indy race start onboard with MS. Here is the direct link.

You can see the lights switch to green, and you can clearly see Alonso's Renault jump before MS releases the LC button with his right hand. MS is known to be a weak starter - this seems to confirm that his reaction time is slower than some others.

Another interesting thing to note was the start in Austria this year. CdM stalled twice, and both times Kimi (and, I think, Rubens) reacted by taking off when the main red lights switched off (the abort lights came on, not the green lights). MS however remained stationary. So it seems that MS waits for the greens to come on, but Kimi (for example) waits for the reds to go off.

Now it might be possible that the human eye is more sensitive to "red light fading to dark" than "dark brightening to green". Perhaps someone can confirm this. If so, it would make more sense to react to the red lights rather than the green, even though there is the small risk of screwing up in the event of an aborted start.

[ZZMS]

or it means that Renault found yet another *creative* wave to automatically detect lights...

[blip]

Originally posted by ZZMS
or it means that Renault found yet another *creative* wave to automatically detect lights...

[el chueco]

At the USGP start, I was standing trackside along the fence next to Ralph's car. I saw Alonso make a very fast reaction launch, but the car lurched noticeably after it began to move and then it accelerated away. I assumed it was the launch/traction control since he was on the dirty side of the track, but now after seeing the video, I think he may have backed off in order not to hit a slow starting Montoya.

By the way, trackside at the start is a great place to be.

[confucius]

Originally posted by blip
Another interesting thing to note was the start in Austria this year. CdM stalled twice, and both times Kimi (and, I think, Rubens) reacted by taking off when the main red lights switched off (the abort lights came on, not the green lights). MS however remained stationary. So it seems that MS waits for the greens to come on, but Kimi (for example) waits for the reds to go off.

Now it might be possible that the human eye is more sensitive to "red light fading to dark" than "dark brightening to green". Perhaps someone can confirm this. If so, it would make more sense to react to the red lights rather than the green, even though there is the small risk of screwing up in the event of an aborted start.

What green lights?

I read somewhere (it might even have been on this BB) that Nigel Mansell used to stare at the middle of the red light and as soon as the element started to fade he'd take off.

It's strange to think that Schuey, who has brilliant car control, would have slow reaction times.

[Schuperman]

______________________________________________________________________________

Another interesting thing to note was the start in Austria this year. CdM stalled twice, and both times Kimi (and, I think, Rubens) reacted by taking off when the main red lights switched off (the abort lights came on, not the green lights). MS however remained stationary. So it seems that MS waits for the greens to come on, but Kimi (for example) waits for the reds to go off. - blip
______________________________________________________________________________


The way MS remained stationary when the others sprinted away really impressed me. He was so cool and under control. Not once but twice. This is a real legend.

[mark f1]

Blip,

Without even looking at the video, it's obvious that this clip is the start of the parade lap before the start. Green light is only used then not at the start. Explains why the reaction time for each driver is different.

Mark

[Jhope]

Originally posted by mark f1
Blip,

Without even looking at the video, it's obvious that this clip is the start of the parade lap before the start. Green light is only used then not at the start. Explains why the reaction time for each driver is different.

Mark

Maybe you should watch the video then.

[Nasty McBastard]

no wonder his reaction times are ****...if hes waiting for the green light.

the austria thing is interesting though.....kimi et all are clearly on a hair trigger....its like the start of a 100 meter sprint. if one fella twitches in the slightest, theyre all off.

[mark f1]

Watched the video, slow link and my monitor is dying, but yes, apologies, it is the start of the race not the parade lap. There's no green light, of course, but Michael's reaction time didn't seem that bad to me.

Mark

[Schuperman]

______________________________________________________________________________

Watched the video, slow link and my monitor is dying, but yes, apologies, it is the start of the race not the parade lap. There's no green light, of course, but Michael's reaction time didn't seem that bad to me. - Mark f1
______________________________________________________________________________

I didnt notice the green light also, if there is any.

Yup, Michael start was not that bad either, moved from 7th to 4th position. But both of Renault drivers were always fantastic at the start.

[Robbie]

Originally posted by confucius


It's strange to think that Schuey, who has brilliant car control, would have slow reaction times.

Slow would be going to far, but he's quite average. Always a mystery to me.

[PPatrik :: LKF]

Originally posted by Schuperman
The way MS remained stationary when the others sprinted away really impressed me. He was so cool and under control. Not once but twice. This is a real legend.

Oh yes and this goes to some of other drivers on the grid who also stayed standstill. They are also real legends, aren't they?
But the biggest legend there, so cool not to start twice was - no question - da Matta's Toyota

[maclaren]

Originally posted by confucius
It's strange to think that Schuey, who has brilliant car control, would have slow reaction times.

Believe me all drivers in F1 have fast reactiontimes

And I don't know about Schumackers car control, he is quite understeer driver nowadays and doesn't have much to control.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Schuperman
______________________________________________________________________________

Another interesting thing to note was the start in Austria this year. CdM stalled twice, and both times Kimi (and, I think, Rubens) reacted by taking off when the main red lights switched off (the abort lights came on, not the green lights). MS however remained stationary. So it seems that MS waits for the greens to come on, but Kimi (for example) waits for the reds to go off. - blip
______________________________________________________________________________


The way MS remained stationary when the others sprinted away really impressed me. He was so cool and under control. Not once but twice. This is a real legend.

Cool? You mean slow to react and being mistaken for being cool, don't you.

Actually, hasn't even Ross Brawn confirmed that starts were always MS's weakness, thus he was glad that LC became legal, and that in general MS's reaction times are nothing special.

[logic]

Your reactions becomes slower when you get older. And Alonso is only 22

[HSJ]

Originally posted by maclaren

Believe me all drivers in F1 have fast reactiontimes

Certainly! I once took a test (with possibility to practice) and I have really, really slow reaction times IMO.

And I don't know about Schumackers car control, he is quite understeer driver nowadays and doesn't have much to control.

Yeah, it is beginning to look like it. Whenever the car is nervous his lap times have suffered surpringly much.

[Sir Frank]

Schumacher understeer driver???

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
Schumacher understeer driver???

The McLaren contingent gets ever more desperate by the day. Wonder what they will come up during the next coming years?

[Pilla]

I saw a documentary on tv with that guy who hosts that Top Gear where he measured peoples reaction times including tennis players and Micheal Schumacher. He concluded that everyones reaction times is the same, but the skill comes in predicting whats going to happen and reacing before it.

[Spunout]

Not to forget, reacting to lights is completely different from reacting to, say, oversteer or understeer.

Pilla has a point, a decent driver can feel oversteer before it actually happens...

[pRy]

Alonso may have reacted quicker but shesh his car really did bog down, the Ferrari flew by.

[logic]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
Schumacher understeer driver???

That's not exactly what maclaren said.

[logic]

Originally posted by Spunout
Pilla has a point, a decent driver can feel oversteer before it actually happens...

That's directly from GPL driving lesson You hould react before you spin

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
Schumacher understeer driver???

Well, lets put is this way. His car understeers and in response Schumacher turns wheel too much. It doesn't make him an oversteer driver though

[Sir Frank]

Originally posted by maclaren

Well, lets put is this way. His car understeers and in response Schumacher turns wheel too much. It doesn't make him an oversteer driver though

Ill concede defeat

[davegp3]

It is not surprising that Schuey has poor reaction time at the start . That is why he often blocks other cars , he know his weakness.
I remember when he was battling with Hakkinen, he usually lost position to Hakk at the start.

[blip]

Sorry about the green light thing But now I'm confused. MS obviously reacts to the lights going off, but how come he is so slow in comparison to the others? And how come he didn't react to the Austria incidents?

[Deeq]

Originally posted by davegp3
It is not surprising that Schuey has poor reaction time at the start . That is why he often blocks other cars , he know his weakness.
I remember when he was battling with Hakkinen, he usually lost position to Hakk at the start.

You guys have short and selective memories, watch races from 94-95 and say that reaction is his weakness.He more often than not gained positions on starts to my BTW disapointment.

Maybe the McLaren did have different properties to the Ferrari that made run away the grid faster, and it wasn't by any means as frenquently as you hint. he even sometimes gained positions on those McLarens. but you only remember Hungary(2000)/Suzuka(1999)* races where Häkkinen hade above everage start.


*this race's start i.e. the Suzuka race is more than suspicious btw wheel spins half circle stops(spining).


@Sir Frank it is like watching train wreck about to happen aint it, reading kimi fanboys in self destructive mode, it's sad and pathetic realy

[BMW4life]

Originally posted by Deeq

You guys have short and selective memories, watch races from 94-95 and say that reaction is his weakness.He more often than not gained positions on starts to my BTW disapointment.

If I'm not mistaken, Schumacher had launch control illegally during part of the '94-'95 season you mentioned. It was cockpit activated, and they escaped punishment by claiming that they used it only for testing.

......and yes, Ross BRawn did say publicly that Schumacher's reaction times were not the best.

[Fortymark]

Originally posted by Deeq


You guys have short and selective memories, watch races from 94-95 and say that reaction is his weakness.He more often than not gained positions on starts to my BTW disapointment.

Maybe the McLaren did have different properties to the Ferrari that made run away the grid faster, and it wasn't by any means as frenquently as you hint. he even sometimes gained positions on those McLarens. but you only remember Hungary(2000)/Suzuka(1999)* races where Häkkinen hade above everage start.


*this race's start i.e. the Suzuka race is more than suspicious btw wheel spins half circle stops(spining).


@Sir Frank it is like watching train wreck about to happen aint it, reading kimi fanboys in self destructive mode, it's sad and pathetic realy

Haha, selective memory...
In which car did they find illegal software?
In -95 MS usually had more stops than Williams making the car lighter.
MS was often on an 3 stop strategy.

[Wuzak]

There is another aspect to this - the fear of a jump start.

Whilst it is all good and well to anticipate the lights, as I'm sure some do, it can be that the timing is slightly wrong.

Watching that video, it looked to me as if Alonso started, then stopped, and then went again, as if he believed that he beat the lights.

[Deeq]

Originally posted by BMW4life



If I'm not mistaken, Schumacher had launch control illegally during part of the '94-'95 season you mentioned. It was cockpit activated, and they escaped punishment by claiming that they used it only for testing.

......and yes, Ross BRawn did say publicly that Schumacher's reaction times were not the best.

The allegation you are mistaken in remembring is vallid only in 94, it was early in the season that was found dormat code in the benneton along ith Mclaren and a third team that I now don't remember, and it was about TC not LC. BTW 95? furhter more I took those seasons as a refference because I was primarily Williams fan specificaly DH still am . So it was pain to see MS took away pole advantage from DH race after race( sightly exagerating ;) you know I was a fan) And he was driving a leading car. 96 the Ferrari was by no means a leading car for that matter niether any other car, it was Williams year!. 97 was also good year I think he gained more places than he lost IIRC, but could be wrong.

BTW perhaps McLaren were doing in 98-00 what you alleget that Benetton were doing back then when MS drove for them-----> There is no indications that MS has a weakness in (race) starts!

[holiday]

Man, I should become formula1 driver. When something drops out of my shelves, it rarely touches the earth.

[Yelnats]

Both Peter Windsor of F1 Racing and McLaren apparently agree that Michael is somewhat tardy off the line.

F1 Racing, Oct 2003 Pg 54; 'Michael's starts have not been good. McLaren's simulation program actually shows that Michael has a slower reaction time at the start than most drivers......'


But this can is deceptive because of all electronic intervention involved in the starting process these day who knows what is going on.

[blip]

Originally posted by Yelnats
F1 Racing, Oct 2003 Pg 54; 'Michael's starts have not been good. McLaren's simulation program actually shows that Michael has a slower reaction time at the start than most drivers......'


But this can is deceptive because of all electronic intervention involved in the starting process these day who knows what is going on.

I suppose they could measure MS versus Rubens to decide that MS is "at fault".

[ZZMS]

And MS more often then not was/is faster than his teammates off the start line. Go figure

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by HSJ





Yeah, it is beginning to look like it. Whenever the car is nervous his lap times have suffered surpringly much.

When Kimis car is nervous his laptimes suffer surprisingly much. This often results in him chrashing during qualifying and thus starting from the backrow. At the young age of 23 it's really impressive to watch the future Senna or as we know him at this board the "ICEMAN" understeer/ Oversteer into the barriers left and right.

[Menace]

Originally posted by Amir_S


When Kimis car is nervous his laptimes suffer surprisingly much. This often results in him chrashing during qualifying and thus starting from the backrow. At the young age of 23 it's really impressive to watch the future Senna or as we know him at this board the "ICEMAN" understeer/ Oversteer into the barriers left and right.

Now I know you feel the need to get to HSJ's level, but please. If you think you are better then him, then why all the Trolling? I dont know why it is so hard for people to support more then one or two drivers? Atleast leave the idiotic bashing away from these boards..(this goes to you HSJ and logic as well, just admit Schumi is the class of the field until someone eclipses him that is)

We all should be happy that there seems to be more then one or two potential greats starting to make their mark in F1. That only means we will be blessed to see the young guns battle each other AND Michael, who is the current benchmark!

[holiday]

The thing is the question whether Schumacher is a strong, medium or weak starter is no matter of opinion but can be answered by looking at the empirical data. I can assure you that as far as Brian Lawrence's data about position gains and losses on lap 1 is concerned, there is no proof that MS is a medium or even weak starter. Now if he is still a weak starter, guess by how much stronger he must be on the rest of the first lap to get the stats he has...

[Cojayar]

Originally posted by pRy
Alonso may have reacted quicker but shesh his car really did bog down, the Ferrari flew by.

Renault did an improvement of the launch control for Indy and beated their best time in the tests they did. In the race the system didn't work properly and they started slower than normal. As usual the IF IS NOT BROKEN DON'T TOUCH IT principle was not followed.

Originally posted by ZZMS
or it means that Renault found yet another *creative* wave to automatically detect lights...

Regarding the time reaction I heard once from Alonso that they (JT and FA) train it. They have probably a red light simulator and they sit there to click the button. They measure it and try to improve it every time.

So it's not only the launch control from Renault that is good (even if in Indy wasn't so brilliant) but the drivers that (are forced to) work on this aspect also. Does anyone know if are there other teams that also train the start reaction time?

[holiday]

Originally posted by blip
You can see the lights switch to green, and you can clearly see Alonso's Renault jump before MS releases the LC button with his right hand. MS is known to be a weak starter - this seems to confirm that his reaction time is slower than some others.

Your reasoning is flawed.

IF MS has actually slower reaction times, he would have been not only slow to realize the red lights going off but also the signals signaling the start break off! That is, he would have set his car in motion (rather late) which in fact he didnt.

In fact, the fact that MS didnt start at all indicates the opposite, that he has pretty good reaction times.

[ZZMS]

Originally posted by Cojayar

Renault did an improvement of the launch control for Indy and beated their best time in the tests they did. In the race the system didn't work properly and they started slower than normal. As usual the IF IS NOT BROKEN DON'T TOUCH IT principle was not followed.


Regarding the time reaction I heard once from Alonso that they (JT and FA) train it. They have probably a red light simulator and they sit there to click the button. They measure it and try to improve it every time.

So it's not only the launch control from Renault that is good (even if in Indy wasn't so brilliant) but the drivers that (are forced to) work on this aspect also. Does anyone know if are there other teams that also train the start reaction time?

I'm quite positive you CANNOT train reaction time. Yes you can improve in one session (that is you'd improve you prediction/concentrate more, but not the actual _reaction_ time) or exersize but I doubt this improvement would be *permanent*.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by HSJ
... Whenever the car is nervous his [MS's] lap times have suffered surpringly much.

??? I guess that means in the wet, when MS has always been superb? !!

Concerning MS being slow off the mark, he might be. The key is what is the correllation between that reaction time and the ability to control the car.

I recall a Melbourne GP 3 or so years ago, on the Sunday morning practice, everyone was driving around the track, but only MS was practicising the first right hand corner after the starting straight, by turning right on the outside of the track, as one would in a race when one is caught on the outside. No other driver practiced that likely scenario. One of the things which makes MS so good is that he covers all the angles. Maybe he doesn't even need to start perfectly ... I recall Alonso and KR both running into cars in front of them this season at the start ... good reaction times for the lights, maybe not so good reacting to quick tactical changes, such as car crashes up front. I recall MS being very quick with the hand waiving this year when he got stuck in the sand, the marshalls actually ran over and pushing him back onto the track and back into the race. That move likely won him the WDC this year. That's not just a fast reaction time, it was fast thinking time.

[nneads]

Yea - Schumi is know to be a little slow off the line. But it not how quick you start that counts. It is how quick you finish the Race.

[TAB666]

Originally posted by Pilla
I saw a documentary on tv with that guy who hosts that Top Gear where he measured peoples reaction times including tennis players and Micheal Schumacher. He concluded that everyones reaction times is the same, but the skill comes in predicting whats going to happen and reacing before it.

So true, there was a test at Ferrari a year or so back and MS had the worst reaction tie among the drivers and testdrivers. But he had the best/fastest metal processing ability. Hence knowing faster what to do with the reaction.

Oh and back to the senarios when there is a yellow and people still start. Is that Legal to do ? I mean if you are exiting the pits and the red goes of 1ms before you cross it you get a penalty. I know it isnt the same thing but still the drivers should see the yeoolow lights and not only focus on the red going of.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by TAB666


So true, there was a test at Ferrari a year or so back and MS had the worst reaction tie among the drivers and testdrivers. But he had the best/fastest metal processing ability. Hence knowing faster what to do with the reaction.

An example at Indy GP: MS is going up the straight, there's a yellow flag waiving, and MS is passing a car. But he processes his closing time, he knows the rule, that he must pass the car before the yellow flag point of the track, he doesn't back off, he passes just in time, no penalty, lots of time saved, classic fast brain calculations of MS ...

[maclaren]

Originally posted by logic
That's directly from GPL driving lesson You hould react before you spin

This is why Kimi is so much better than Michael, he has fantastic feel for it and doesn't spin

[baddog]

Originally posted by maclaren

This is why Kimi is so much better than Michael, he has fantastic feel for it and doesn't spin

lol it must be good **** you and hsj are smoking. Kimi HAS very good car control, but he has demonstrated several times in the last 2 years that he is more than capable of losing control of his car...

Shaun

[umapathypon]

Originally posted by maclaren

This is why Kimi is so much better than Michael, he has fantastic feel for it and doesn't spin

like at Canada and Spain?