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Behra-Porsche in 1960


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#1 Felix Muelas

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 10:45

As some of the old threads do not accept new postings I am opening this new one in search of some informations that, naturally, would have fallen under some of our old discussions and findings. Anyway.

My main question arises from this self-explanatory sentence written by McRonalds back in 29th December 2001 in a thread called Jean Behra's mysterious GP debut (post number 30)

...After his death it was taken over by the American Camoradi team, who ran it in a couple of F2 races in 1960, but it failed to finish on either occasion. lt did, however, appear in two World Championship races, the 1960 Argentine and Italian GPs. At Buenos Aires, Masten Gregory qualified 16th from 22 starters, ahead of two 2 1/2 -litre Cooper-Maseratis and some local Maserati 250F's and, though four laps down at the end, he was 12th and a classified finisher. Fred Gamble drove it at Monza, where he was extremely slow, finishing not only nine laps down, but seven laps behind the leading F2 car. Behra's memory deserved better...



Question : how did the take-over of the Behra-Porsche took place? Who was involved? Hans Hermann?

Aside question : What was the decoration of the car in 1960?

Any help will be welcomed ;)

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#2 McRonalds

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 11:30

@Felix; we had a discussion about that in the German Yesterday Forum:

www.f1welt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8252

Too bad it's only in German, but there are a lot of interesting pictures there about Porsches early Monoposto-adventures, Behras first ride with the F2 at Reims 1958 and the first single seaters of Porsche and Behra himself. More informations about how Comoradi took over the Behra car (I think Porsche was involved in this) will follow later.

#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 11:43

Maybe Fred Gamble can shed some light on this?

Lyn Meredith is in touch with him occasionally...

#4 Felix Muelas

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 12:04

Originally posted by McRonalds
...More informations about how Comoradi took over the Behra car (I think Porsche was involved in this) will follow later...


Oh, yes please! ;)

BTW, thank you very much for the link! It did provide very interesting information on the early Mono-Porsches :lol: that will be useful in the future but not really on what I specifically was looking for.

Anyway, seeing as reciprocity might well be the name of the Game, please find this link to the Spanish Forum on the subject (work now in progress!) ;)

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Maybe Fred Gamble can shed some light on this?


Obviously the answer would be YES! What a nice suggestion! Actually I have long wondered whether the nickname "Frederico Gambini" was EVER used by Fred Gamble in relation with his entry at the Italian Grand Prix 1960 or it is a late recreation :cat: Let's hope Lyn takes a look at this thread... ;)

#5 McRonalds

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 12:14

Thanks for that link, Felix! :love:

Very impressive machinery!

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 12:39

Fred's time with this car was covered in a magazine article... but not a motoring magazine, IIRC.

Lyn loaned it to me... it was something like Penthouse... well, maybe not Penthouse, but some other type of mag.

#7 Felix Muelas

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 12:43

Originally posted by Ray Bell
... it was something like Penthouse... well, maybe not Penthouse, but some other type of mag


Your words above have been now officially selected to compete for the "Quote of the Year" 2003 Award

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 13:16

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Your words above have been now officially selected to compete for the "Quote of the Year" 2003 Award


Thanks for the kind expression, but it's to no avail...

I'm but an amateur at this kind of thing alongside Frans.

















.....Vitesse2 will explain if necessary.....

#9 Felix Muelas

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 13:52

Originally posted by Ray Bell
...I'm but an amateur at this kind of thing...

:eek: :lol:


Originally posted by Ray Bell
...Vitesse2 will explain if necessary...


Richard : do as suggested, please ;)

#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 13:53

Originally posted by Ray Bell
.....Vitesse2 will explain if necessary.....


Oh - thanks a bunch :rolleyes:

For any one who's never read one of Frans' posts, I'm afraid he defies explanation! If you have read one - you don't need me to explain!

Suffice it to say that I don't think the aliens ever removed his anal probe. Or is he actually from Mars? I forget .... :rolleyes:

#11 Felix Muelas

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 13:58

Originally posted by McRonalds
... about how Camoradi took over the Behra car (I think Porsche was involved in this)...


Does THAT make any sense? Seeing as how Porsche was to be involved in almost military fashion (no disrespect meant, don' t read me wrong) in the 1960 F2 season (Phantom Championship included) with the obvious view set in 1961 F1, how would the Behra-Porsche fit into that equation in the hands of the Camoradi Team? I mean, not that Porsche was going to be short of cars and/or drivers...or am I missing something on the tyres, maybe, that will make sense? ;)

#12 Felix Muelas

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 14:03

Originally posted by Vitesse2
For any one who's never read one of Frans' posts, I'm afraid he defies explanation! If you have read one - you don't need me to explain!

Suffice it to say that I don't think the aliens ever removed his anal probe. Or is he actually from Mars? I forget .... :rolleyes:


:eek: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Can I please be initiated in the part scepcifically dealing with the posts without having to comment of any kind of anal probes being / being not removed? :blush:

I have the sensation of having been caught here between the devil and the deep blue sea... :p

#13 Reyna

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 18:30

Felix, sorry my english is very bad !!! So i'll write this message in spanish:



Behra Porsche... Después del trágico accidente Von Hanstein se llevó de vuelta a Stuttgart a los dos F2 (el BP y el oficial Porsche). Allí destriparon al PB y posteriormente montado sirvió de de coche pruebas hasta que Von Hanstein llegó a un acuerdo con Lloyd " Lucky " Casner, creador de la escudería Camoradi, para vendérselo en vista de la temporada 1.960.
Creo que la temporada de 1.960 es de sobra conocida....
En 1.961 fué devuelto a Zuffenhausen, donde permaneció hasta que lo compró Vic Meinhardt, quien en 1.963 gano con él un campeonato del SCCA de Fórmula Libre.....



1.960, Argentinan Grand Prix. Msten Gregory with the Behra Porsche.
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Photo Bernard Cahier



Regards,
Rafa


BTW, Technical problems again with the Spanish Forum ????

#14 marat

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 19:14

There are two sources telling the story of the Behra-Porsche after Jeannot's death:

- Michel Bollée "Lucky"

- Automobile Historique n°1 : André Pibarot la monoplace Porsche Behra ou le rêve brisé

Both state that the car was taken to the Porsche factory after the 1959 German GP.
And sold to Lucky Cassner to be raced during 1960.

#15 McRonalds

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 19:53

Looking at Reyna's picture (great!) I suppose the car was still blue when it was raced in Argentina 1960 by the Camoradi Team.

#16 Reyna

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 20:11

Originally posted by McRonalds
Looking at Reyna's picture (great!) I suppose the car was still blue when it was raced in Argentina 1960 by the Camoradi Team.




For the 1.960 season the Behra Porsche was allways in the same Blue France - original painted in 1.959 - except the nose, with just white colour around the nose.
For the 1.960 Italian Grand Prix, the new owner - Ray Colet - gave his permission to to Fred Gamble - "Frederico Gambini " in this GP - to paint it in blue colour again.



Rafa

#17 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 23:56

Originally posted by Reyna
Después del trágico accidente Von Hanstein se llevó de vuelta a Stuttgart a los dos F2 (el BP y el oficial Porsche). Allí destriparon al PB y posteriormente montado sirvió de de coche pruebas hasta que Von Hanstein llegó a un acuerdo con Lloyd " Lucky " Casner, creador de la escudería Camoradi, para vendérselo en vista de la temporada 1.960.
Creo que la temporada de 1.960 es de sobra conocida....
En 1.961 fué devuelto a Zuffenhausen, donde permaneció hasta que lo compró Vic Meinhardt, quien en 1.963 gano con él un campeonato del SCCA de Fórmula Libre...


Some monthes before he dies, José Behra told me (it was a conversation by telephone) that his brother Jean had built this F2 car for him (José) to drive but that he actually only tested it once or twice at Monza. He was still irritated against von Hanstein who, I'm still quoting, "took the car with him after Jean's death and disposed of it according to his own goodwill"

A question now to our fellow TNFers from America : do you know more on this SCCA championship by Vic Meinhardt ?

#18 Don Capps

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 01:10

While seeing what there was on Vic Meinhart, his name popped up on this list... http://www.scca.org/...ords/usrrc.html
....which certainly sat me back on my heels!

I am certain that Mainhart and the Behra Porsche are mentioned in either or both SCG and/or Sports Car during 1963. I'll have to sort around my files for more.

#19 humphries

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 13:39

Felix

The Behra-Porsche was raced by Vic Meinhardt at the Lime Rock "National" meeting on 1 July 1961 but he retired from the F3 / Unrestricted race.

According to my records the car re-appeared at Watkins Glen in the Seneca Cup (24 August 1963) race and finished 6th. Meinhardt raced again at the Thompson "National" (2 September 1963) and in the race for Formula cars finished 3rd.

On both occasions he was 2nd in the F.Libre class and earned himself 16 points, enough to be declared "National" champion in that class. There were only two rounds counting towards the F.Libre title.

It may well be that Meinhardt raced the car in Divisional or Regional events but I have no knowledge.

John

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#20 Don Capps

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 17:21

John, That is pretty much all I have found as well, so....

#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 02:05

Fred Gamble probably knows more...

Is there anyone going to talk him into posting?

Lyn Meredith has tried...

#22 Joe Fan

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 09:10

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Question : how did the take-over of the Behra-Porsche took place? Who was involved? Hans Hermann?

Aside question : What was the decoration of the car in 1960?

Any help will be welcomed ;)


Besides Maserati, Lucky Casner established a relationship with Huschke von Hanstein of Porsche when he first went over to Europe. So this probably played a role in him ending up with the Behra-Porsches. Camoradi also ran some Porsche RSKs in various sports car races.

#23 karlcars

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 09:37

Here's what I say about the car in my book:

Another brand-new unpainted Formula Two Porsche arrived at Monte Carlo for that Friday's practice. This was the Porsche-Behra, built in Modena, Italy for Jean Behra. It was a prettier and, in its time, more successful car than Porsche's own first open-wheeled effort. But on that day at Monte Carlo neither its assigned driver, Maria-Teresa de Fillipis, nor Edgar Barth could get a clear enough track to set the fast time needed to qualify.

"I like Porsches very much, above all because I had such great successes with them last year," said Behra, explaining why the number one Ferrari team driver would take the trouble to build his own car. "I'd like to try out a few things I've thought up on the basis of my racing experiences in recent years. This project with the Formula Two car is tremendous fun for me!" The basis of his car was a complete RSK Porsche (718-016), obtained on very favorable terms from Ferry Porsche.

Behra brought this RSK to Valerio Colotti, a young engineer who had left Maserati to set up his own design office in Modena at the end of 1958. Following Behra's suggestions, Colotti prepared drawings of the major modifications needed to the chassis and of the new body. The standard 82.6-inch wheelbase was kept. The front torsion bars and their carrying tubes were shortened by about five inches to reduce the front track to 46.9 inches. Rear track was reduced by two inches, to 47.6 inches. The rear suspension remained the original RSK design, with swing axles located by Watt linkages, which were much heavier, bulkier and harder to fit into an open-wheeled auto than the wishbones at the rear of Porsche's own car.

Colotti and Behra gave this improvisation the look of a thoroughbred, with an oil-cooler inlet in a pointed nose, a distinctive sharp peak line ahead of the windscreen, shapely bulges above the engine and screened air inlets in the tail. Its shell was hammered out of aluminum by one of Modena's many artisans and an ex-Maserati mechanic rebuilt the chassis. The workshop of another former Maserati man, Giorgio Neri, was the site of the car's final assembly, which was frantically rushed in order to get the car to Monte Carlo.

The race for Formula Two cars at Pau on May 16th was the one for which Behra had originally been preparing the car. Pau was destined to be one of only two races in which this great French driver personally piloted his Porsche-Behra – as he had named it. He roared into second place, but on that curb-lined course he hit something and blew a tire. In the pits after three laps, he spent a frantic five minutes searching for suitable rubber, then pressed hard to get back in the running. But he pressed too hard. He spun and bent two rims but kept going to place fifth in spite of the delays. Later in the summer Behra drove his blue Porsche-Behra in the Auvergne GP on the Clermont-Ferrand circuit. But he was again without great success. After a poor start he forced the car up to second place but had to call at the pits after 15 laps.

The best outing enjoyed by the rakish-looking car was in the biggest Formula Two race of the year at Rheims on July 5th, 1959. Twenty-three cars started a race that was seen as a preview of the Grand Prix competition coming in 1961. The Porsche-Behra was driven by Hans Herrmann, to whom Behra had said: "You drive it, Hans. You'll get more out of it." This was a tribute both to Behra's remarkable unselfishness and to his judgement, because Herrmann gave the car one hell of a ride. He set practice times faster than the works Porsches and, in broiling heat, fought hard for the lead in the race with Stirling Moss's Cooper-Borgward, finally settling for an honorable second place. Herrmann drove it once more in an F.2 race at Rouen on July 12th, where a seized gearbox forced him to retire after he’d set the fastest practice time.

Already strained, Behra's relationship with Ferrari was not improved by the way the Porsche-Behra easily defeated the latest F.2 car from Maranello at Rheims. Ferrari and Behra parted company after that race and "Jeannot" prepared, impeccably as usual, both his RSK and his single-seater for the German Grand Prix at the Avus in Berlin on August 2nd. When he was killed in the sports-car race there his F.2 car, in which he had practiced, was withdrawn.

Behra’s special was taken over by the American Camoradi team formed by Lloyd "Lucky" Casner and entered for the Argentine Grand Prix on February 7th, 1960. Masten Gregory drove it to 12th among 14 finishers. It was driven in practice for the German GP in July but did not race, and ended the season by placing 10th and last in the Italian Grand Prix. Driven by Fred Gamble, it had been running in eighth as first non-works entry until he ran out of fuel on the circuit and had to run back to his pit for an emergency supply.

After having been owned by a young American, Ray Colet (who loaned it back to Camoradi for the Italian GP) this unique car languished outside the customer service department at Werk I in Zuffenhausen until it was brought to America in 1961 and purchased by Vic Meinhardt of Merrick, Long Island. Meinhardt raced it successfully, winning the SCCA Formula Libre Championship in 1963. He sold it to Dick Souan, from whom it was bought by Philip Sadler late in 1969. A later owner and restorer of the Porsche-Behra was Murray Smith. The blue car still circulates in the burgeoning world of vintage racing.

Looks like I'll have to change that last sentence!

Of course Porsche's own single-seaters are well covered in the book too.

#24 Felix Muelas

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 23:24

Thank you very much :clap:

As usual, unexpected informations is the real spice of some of these threads.

I started with a quote wanting to dig into the meaning of the words of McRonalds "taken over" and I ended excatly with the same words by Karl Ludvigsen. :lol:

No problem. It only means that I was asking the wrong question.

Because...in the meantime I have learned what happened AFTER 1960 -and pretty interesting things, to be clear- and I even got a picture taken by a very young Paul Medici attending a race in Long Island (¿1963?) :

"My only excuse for the poor quality (and a feeble one at that ) is that it was the first time I had used my dad's 35mm Argus C4. It was also the first race I had ever attended and I guess I didn't know that I could have had access to the paddock. That's the reason why the only view I had was the rear of the car.../... I always suspected that it was some type of GP car but could never understand what it was doing at an SCCA event."

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#25 Paul Medici

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 19:10

Felix,
Thanks for asking about the Behra Porsche.
As mentioned in my e-mail, it was Karl’s comment about Vic Meinhardt living on Long Island that prompted me to make the connection.
I took the photo at the SCCA Nationals, held at Bridgehampton on Sunday, August 6, 1961. For me this resolves a forty-two year old mystery about the car’s identity, but I still don’t recall seeing it race there.
Would someone know if it competed in a FL race that weekend, maybe on Saturday? There is no information from race reports in SCG or TMS and R&T didn't cover the event.

OT – I think I may have picked a good weekend to attend my first races :D - Hansgen and Penske doing battle in Masers along with Constantine’s Testa Rosa and Heuer’s Scarab, two unknown (to me) kids named Donahue and Revson racing small bore production cars and Peter Ryan winning the Vanderbilt Cup in a Lotus XX.

#26 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 20:29

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Fred Gamble probably knows more...

Is there anyone going to talk him into posting?

Lyn Meredith has tried...



I'll doubt he'll post here but I do know if someone (ie Ray?) takes the time to write to him & doesn't mind waiting for answers, he'll answer the questions & in full. Top bloke, old "Federico" :up: Very, very helpful in response from a query by David H regards his one & only GP start.

#27 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 November 2003 - 23:34

Just in case it hasn't been mentioned yet - I can't find it - the Behra-Porsche is another of the cars beautifully preserved today within the Collier Collection, Naples, Florida.

DCN

#28 Reyna

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 00:26

Just a great pic, from the French magazine "Automodelisme"



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#29 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 10:32

I wonder if it is possible to re-activate the images on this thread that no longer load up?