45 replies to this topic

[Math Soucy]

Please say it ain't so. It's been rumored that one of F1's last great corners, Suzuka's 130-R, has been changed this year, and two chicanes have been added. Please help dismiss this nightmarish possibility with any documented reports. Thank you.

[Double Apex]

130R has indeed been changed, but it hasn't changed completely. It's still a very fast, sweeping corner. I believe the radius has slightly changed.

The last chicane has also changed, they've opened it up a lot and it should be a lot faster. Nothing too disturbing for F1 I would say.

[Double Apex]

Here's a drawing of the changes:



Note: the second chicane will not be used for the F1 race!

[Jason]

I heard they smoothed out a bump at 130R that unsettled cars, as well as the changes Double Apex mentioned.

[BRG]

I saw it at the Moto GP earleir this year - the changes looked quite positive for once!

[neil.dorrel]

Looks to be an improvement overall...

[Lada Lover]

It would be a hell of a great racetrack if they got rid of the chicane completely. That new 130R followed by a sweeping right onto the main straight would make passing easy for the big HP cars.

[fingers]

Originally posted by Double Apex
Here's a drawing of the changes:



Note: the second chicane will not be used for the F1 race!

Looking at that I'd say there will be quite a significant set-up change on the cars I should imagine they can run slightly stiffer at the rear or even slightly less downforce at the rear as its a bit shallowerand less likely to snap away or get unsettled. This may well suit Kimi actually.

[Lada Lover]

Will the cars be able to take 130R flat out or will the drivers still have to think about lifting?

[Sir Frank]

Originally posted by Lada Lover
Will the cars be able to take 130R flat out or will the drivers still have to think about lifting?

It looks like they will be flat, that would be a shame. But what do I know?

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
It looks like they will be flat, that would be a shame. But what do I know?

It's easily flat I guess. I like changes for chicane though, it was too slow before.

[BrundleBud]

Presumably the re-profiling of 130R and additional run-off area are a reaction to McNish's crash there last year.

[Jason]

Originally posted by BrundleBud
Presumably the re-profiling of 130R and additional run-off area are a reaction to McNish's crash there last year.

Yes, this is treu: http://www.etrackson...news_id091.html

Suzuka: new chicane and 130R

FEBRUARY 2: Japan’s famed Suzuka Circuit is undergoing two major modifications in time for the 2003 racing season, according to the track’s official website, www.suzukacircuit.co.jp.

The high speed “130R” corner will be reprofiled into a two-radii sweeper; the first part with an 85 metres redius and a second half radius of 340 metres. The effect will be to provide a faster and more sweeping corner which turns in sooner. The work also removes the bump in the centre of the corner which unsettled cars.

The corner originally had a 130 metre radius - but we assume it is not to be renamed 85R/340R after the revisions!

The changes follow a huge accident at least year's Formula One event, when the Toyota of Allan McNish got out of shape through the daunting corner and speared off track, piercing through a guardrail. The new corner profile allows for an increased paved run-off area.

The new corner will lead into a revised Casino Triangle chicane, which has been moved closer to 130R. The new chicane is more open than before and leads into a sweeping final turn. Motorcycle racers will have a second chicane to negotiate before the start/finish straight.

Both changes, which are scheduled to be completed this month, will result in about 10 feet being added to the overall length of the motorcycle course, which now measures 3.619 miles (5.824 km).

[Newtown]

These changes are because a mediocre driver decided to be brave and take the turn flat out and didn't make it through the corner. Total BS as far as I'm concerned...another one of the rare, truely challenging corners that are still left in Formula Farce have once again been tamed.

[BrundleBud]

Compared to Villeneuve at Eau Rouge, for example, who always tries to take that flat, whether or not it's possible, and has had some huge accidents because of it?

Sure, blame McNish's "mediocrity". You might as well blame Senna's "mediocrity" for the changes to Imola that have rendered it so sterile compared to the pre-1995 track.

[Newtown]

[sarcasm mode]Good argument[/end sarcasm], Senna's accident at Tamburello had nothing to do with the difficulty and danger of that bend...it was not rated as a dangerous corner but was considered rather staightforward. Eau Rouge has been the site of numerous crashes over the years and when they changed the profile of that section and even added a hideous chicane everyone bemoaned it because it was a classic bend, much like the way 130R is/was, and even though everyone recognized how dangerous ER was/still is they removed the chicane and went back to the more classic look that it used to have, even if it isn't 100% the way it used to be. Rather than accept the fact that racing is very dangrous and that risks are a part of it the organizers are trying desperately to sanitize the sport and make it super safe. I'd rather see the drivers on 'dangerous' circuits that challenge them and exite all of us fans than the direction we've been heading for the past 30 years. A driver should be able to judge whether or not his machine or his own ability can handle going through any given corner...if he fails to do so, a la McNish last year, he pays the price knowing full well the results of going beyond his limits.

BTW, Villeneuve crashed very hard at ER, but he never complained of the safety of that corner because he knew and accepted the risk that he was taking in trying to go through it flat.

[BrundleBud]

Originally posted by Newtown
[sarcasm mode]Good argument[/end sarcasm], Senna's accident at Tamburello had nothing to do with the difficulty and danger of that bend...it was not rated as a dangerous corner but was considered rather staightforward.

The danger was in the lack of run-off. Just like at 130R. Hence the modifications to the corner - i.e. mostly to increase the run-off area.

Originally posted by Newtown

Eau Rouge has been the site of numerous crashes over the years and when they changed the profile of that section and even added a hideous chicane everyone bemoaned it because it was a classic bend, much like the way 130R is/was, and even though everyone recognized how dangerous ER was/still is they removed the chicane and went back to the more classic look that it used to have, even if it isn't 100% the way it used to be. Rather than accept the fact that racing is very dangrous and that risks are a part of it the organizers are trying desperately to sanitize the sport and make it super safe. I'd rather see the drivers on 'dangerous' circuits that challenge them and exite all of us fans than the direction we've been heading for the past 30 years. A driver should be able to judge whether or not his machine or his own ability can handle going through any given corner...if he fails to do so, a la McNish last year, he pays the price knowing full well the results of going beyond his limits.

Like Villeneuve at Eau Rouge - which he and it couldn't.

Originally posted by Newtown


BTW, Villeneuve crashed very hard at ER, but he never complained of the safety of that corner because he knew and accepted the risk that he was taking in trying to go through it flat.

So did McNish - what's your point? That McNish was badly injured because he wasn't a good enough driver?

MY point is that they have done their best to maintain the "challenge" of the corner, but have reduced the risk of serious injury or death by extending the run-off.

It makes no difference the skill of the driver - if McNish were to crash there again this year the risk of serious injury would be lessened. It's hardly fair to blame the reprofiling of the corner on the ability of the driver who crashes there.

[Newtown]

Originally posted by BrundleBud

MY point is that they have done their best to maintain the "challenge" of the corner, but have reduced the risk of serious injury or death by extending the run-off.

There is no more challenge at 130R...it is reportedly 'easily flat' and not a challenge.

[F1Johnny]

Originally posted by Newtown


There is no more challenge at 130R...it is reportedly 'easily flat' and not a challenge.

Why don't we just wait until tomorrow. How about that?

[philhitchings]

The challenge will be to run at maximum attack into 130R, while slowing immeadiately afterwards for the new (closer to the exit of 130R) chicane. Still looks like a challenge to me

[Mosquito]

Why couldn't they increase the run-off area without altering the corner? iirc, there's nothing of any importance or substance behind the old guard railing, they could easily move that another 50 meters or so, and include a paved stretch of run-off area as well.

Damn shame. F1 is getting gay.

[BrundleBud]

It's not ALL that far from another part of the track, looking at the drawing that Double Apex supplied.

I agree it's a shame to have to have changed the track layout though - would have been good to see them extend the runoff area without altering the charactersitics of the corner at all, so that those that really do want to try it flat at least don't get themselves killed.

[Double Apex]

I think 130R was indeed too close to the other part of the track to increase the run-off area. I think the white area in between both parts of the track is some kind of hill.

Anyways, Suzuka is still a great track with a lot of challenging corners and even if the new 130R can be taken flat out, I'm sure it aint no cakewalk. I also think the new chicane could even be an improvement.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Newtown
[sarcasm mode]Good argument[/end sarcasm], Senna's accident at Tamburello had nothing to do with the difficulty and danger of that bend...it was not rated as a dangerous corner but was considered rather staightforward.

I skip the further nonsense - it wasn't rated very difficult but surely it was well known as pretty dangerous (that's no contradiction - see Senna's accident). Berger's crash in 1989 (?) made major headlines even in non-sports news bulletins that day....

[Al.]

Originally posted by Newtown

These changes are because a mediocre driver decided to be brave and take the turn flat out and didn't make it through the corner. Total BS as far as I'm concerned...another one of the rare, truely challenging corners that are still left in Formula Farce have once again been tamed.

Originally posted by scheivlak

I skip the further nonsense - it wasn't rated very difficult but surely it was well known as pretty dangerous (that's no contradiction - see Senna's accident). Berger's crash in 1989 (?) made major headlines even in non-sports news bulletins that day....

Add Piquet's accident in 87 or 86 to that at the same corner to Berger and then Senna.
I guess the organisers at Imola considered Piquet (then ONLY a double WDC) and Berger (multiple race winner ) only 'mediocre' drivers. It took the death of Senna and a manslaughter charge to galvanise the circuit to change.

Incidently driver ability isn't the only factor in the cause of accidents. Piquet's was a puncture, and Ferrari reckoned Bergers was a front wing (endplate?) failure. Senna's well who know's, but I don't think it was due to 'mediocrity'

Perhaps after seeing McNish's accident last year the Suzuka circuit should have just buried it's head in the sand and hoped that someone like Schui wouldn't suffer a failure such as his tyre failure at Germany or the suspension failure of Rubens at Hungary, at the approach or during a high speed corner such as 130R.

I agree that it is a shame that circuits are altered and classic corners removed or sanitised. However if there is no suitable room to extend run-off then corners have to be slowed. Lets face it the cars aren't getting any slower.

As a footnote to that, the other problem of extending the run off as opposed to slowing the corners is that you move the crowd further away from the track. It's one thing my Dad, a long time visitor of Silverstone of many years, noticed that as the years went by we got moved further back from the track. Now Luffield and the exit of Bridge (on the inside) and the exit of Club is the closest you can get to the track. I don't think we've ever watched from the Beckets complex, since the introduction of the sweepers.

[djned]

Originally posted by Newtown
[sarcasm mode]Good argument[/end sarcasm], Senna's accident at Tamburello had nothing to do with the difficulty and danger of that bend...

good one tool.

If it wasn't dangerous then he would be here today!

Any corner that is taken at 100% throttle, with a concrete wall as a 'run-off' IS dangerous.

[black magic]

graeme crosby told me that when he raced gp bikes and there was no chicane whilst the corner was fun but way too quick in terms of g's being pulled and therefore chicane or some other means of slowing the cars onto the main straight would seem appropriate.

don't see how will help overtaking unless can follow through 130R better with the chicane now closer and not so slow

[GhostR]

Wouldn't be surprised to see further changes to the track for '04 as well. Those will be a result of Kato's death resulting from a crash at Suzuka early this year. I haven't heard what was ultimately blamed for his death, but there was very little run off where he came off (on approach to the new chicane, having come out of the new 130R).

[TAB666]

Originally posted by Newtown


There is no more challenge at 130R...it is reportedly 'easily flat' and not a challenge.

looking at first qual top speeds it doesnt look like an easy flat out corner. MS was doing 313 but there where drivers below 290 after that corner.

[batsnumbereleven]

Originally posted by TAB666


looking at first qual top speeds it doesnt look like an easy flat out corner. MS was doing 313 but there where drivers below 290 after that corner.

That might be down to engine power though.

[Hellenic tifosi]

I think that Kimi lifted when entering 130R, which seems that the corner remains a challenge!

[Ivan]

After watching pre-qual a few of the drivers still lifted going through 130R. I had missed the begining of it and didn't know(remember) it was changed until now!!! I did see that the hairpin was different and thought that was an improvement.

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by Ivan
After watching pre-qual a few of the drivers still lifted going through 130R. I had missed the begining of it and didn't know(remember) it was changed until now!!! I did see that the hairpin was different and thought that was an improvement.

Surely you must mean the chicane?

I also noticed 130R isn't flat out for everybody, but I do think it's less of a challenge. The first part of the corner is sharp but after that it's a relatively tame bend compared to the old thing. IIRC all drivers were well clear of the kerb at the exit.

[917k]

Originally posted by Newtown


There is no more challenge at 130R...it is reportedly 'easily flat' and not a challenge.

Why not wait for the actual corner to be turned by an actual F1 car before the incessant F1 griping,bitching,moaning begins?
BTW-you are quite wrong.Check the qual speeds,it seems EVERY driver,save MS,lifted through the corner.It was also apparent on the onboards.

Down in flames

[917k]

Rewatched quals and it seems both Renault's took it flat,as well.Testament to their chassis,I would say.

[fingers]

Originally posted by Al.




Add Piquet's accident in 87 or 86 to that at the same corner to Berger and then Senna.
I guess the organisers at Imola considered Piquet (then ONLY a double WDC) and Berger (multiple race winner ) only 'mediocre' drivers. It took the death of Senna and a manslaughter charge to galvanise the circuit to change.

Incidently driver ability isn't the only factor in the cause of accidents. Piquet's was a puncture, and Ferrari reckoned Bergers was a front wing (endplate?) failure. Senna's well who know's, but I don't think it was due to 'mediocrity'

Perhaps after seeing McNish's accident last year the Suzuka circuit should have just buried it's head in the sand and hoped that someone like Schui wouldn't suffer a failure such as his tyre failure at Germany or the suspension failure of Rubens at Hungary, at the approach or during a high speed corner such as 130R.

I agree that it is a shame that circuits are altered and classic corners removed or sanitised. However if there is no suitable room to extend run-off then corners have to be slowed. Lets face it the cars aren't getting any slower.

As a footnote to that, the other problem of extending the run off as opposed to slowing the corners is that you move the crowd further away from the track. It's one thing my Dad, a long time visitor of Silverstone of many years, noticed that as the years went by we got moved further back from the track. Now Luffield and the exit of Bridge (on the inside) and the exit of Club is the closest you can get to the track. I don't think we've ever watched from the Beckets complex, since the introduction of the sweepers.

Piquet's was Variante Alta, Alboreto had a big accident there in the footwork not Piquet he came backwards out of the chicane at the top of the hill in '86.

[D. Heimgartner]

Comparing the way cars react while going through 130R this year to last year, the cars seem to be on rails. Last year, most every car that went through 130R was a bit loose, and driver effort could be easily discerned. This year, the cars go rather blandly through the turn, and it seems that driver effort is down big time.

This is just one more injustice that has been heaped upon true racing fans. I'm angry and frustrated, not so much for the fact that these injustices are occuring, but that I love this sport so much that I'm unable to get away from it.

Now let me make a prediction, at some point int the future, a large accident will happen at Eau Rouge, and then that part of Spa will be castrated, just like 130R, just like Tamburello. And at some point, there will be some incident at Monaco that will make racing there a thing of the past. So my friends, how much interest will you have in F1-200?, when Monaco is gone, and Spa is castrated just like Hockenheim and Monza (a shadow of its self).

:

[Shepski]

130R has been castrated!

[Hellenic tifosi]

Unfortunately I have to change my view on the modifications. The truth is that most drivers lift, but the new 130R is a shadow of it's former self. Although Suzuka is full of challenging corners, it is sad to see the most 'ballsy' corner of the current calendar destroyed...

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
It looks like they will be flat, that would be a shame. But what do I know?

The corner radius has been reduced, it would seem logical that the speed through the corner would be lower, and therefore, not flat.

[Jhope]

Originally posted by fingers


Piquet's was Variante Alta, Alboreto had a big accident there in the footwork not Piquet he came backwards out of the chicane at the top of the hill in '86.

No...it was Tamburello in 1987. There's a video of somwhere on the net. It's even documented in Sid Watkins first book.

[jazzzz]

From the Post-Qualifying Press Conference - Japanese GP 2003

Q. There is a new layout to the circuit. Is it going to make overtaking easier? What do you think of it?

JPM: I think 130R before was easier than now. This is a bit wider but there is a couple of bumps thrown in so it makes life quite interesting.

Q. And what about the chicane? Are you braking as hard for the chicane as you were before?

JPM: Yeah, probably the entrance is a bit wider but you have got to have the balls to follow somebody through 130R.


It seems 130R is still a good one...

[MKN]

Thank God for the imperfections of road surfacing machines. Dealing with unsettling bumps and dips are part of the the art of driving. Actually I think the introduction of a few slippery manhole covers would add to the challenge. Resurfacing Monaco to billard table perfection would be a crime.

GP racing originated in racing ultimate cars on the limit at "natural" roads with all the quirks, imperfections and charm of something build in etapes by a collective of humans over time.

The trend towards circuits resembling airports is slowly but surely eroding the necessary ability and challenge of F1 driving. If Tilke and his friends have their way, watching F1 will end up being like watching the TGV go by.

If there's no difficulty and risk, there's no challenge. Maybe it's time to accept that accidents do and will occur in genuine racing and that having about one fatal accident every decade is acceptable.

[Sir Frank]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
The corner radius has been reduced, it would seem logical that the speed through the corner would be lower, and therefore, not flat.

On the contrary the radius has been increased.

[FNG]

After watching the race I didn't see any cars riding up close to the outer curbing. It looks like they could get through the corner a lot easier, or am I on glue??? Sure looked tame this race weekend!

[jloehs777]

Originally posted by FNG
After watching the race I didn't see any cars riding up close to the outer curbing. It looks like they could get through the corner a lot easier, or am I on glue??? Sure looked tame this race weekend!

They did hit the exit curbing but it was just before the view of that camera so it looked like they didn't.