36 replies to this topic

[Todd]

I was watching Speed TV coverage of the Philip Island V8 race, when I noticed something odd about the telemetry. The driver was shifting up at 7,100 rpm. Are these things powered by derivatives of US smallblocks? Winston Cup engines are 5.8 liters, run a single carburetor, and redline at between 8,900 and 9,600 rpm. What is holding back the Australian V8s?

[Philip Lee KK]

iirc V8 supercars have rule for max rev (via rev limiter).

[Mr Tomalski]

They are 5 litre fuel injected V8s, Chev and Ford, as in the Holden commodore, Ford Falcon range for sale down under. The Chev is made to comply to 5 litre due to the Ford being one standard, in factory form.
7500 max revs.

[JForce]

they're rev limited to 7500rpm. They also have gearbox ratio limits, so for instance at Bathurst, at the end of Conrod straight when they do 300km/h, they spend the last part of the straight bouncing off the rev limiter...


BTW Todd, what did you think of it? Did you enjoy the racing?

[Todd]

Originally posted by JForce
they're rev limited to 7500rpm. They also have gearbox ratio limits, so for instance at Bathurst, at the end of Conrod straight when they do 300km/h, they spend the last part of the straight bouncing off the rev limiter...


BTW Todd, what did you think of it? Did you enjoy the racing?

The racing seemed fine. I like roadracing with fenders. The commentators seemed obsessed with some guy named Bowe. He was running about 10th, and really seemed unsensational. Maybe people who already know the series are aware that he is a combination of Senna and Prost, but it hardly seemed a good tactice for getting new fans involved. The cameras followed him instead of any action at the front.

[Nasty McBastard]

well... bowe IS tasmanian......

dont recal much of that race, barring the pissdown at the end...cant remember why theyd be going on about bowe so much.

maybe its an aussie version of nascar commentators with earnhart......theres alot of guys they wont mention unless theyre up front, but earnhart gets 50 mentions a race, even if hes doing nothing.

[AdrianM]

Yeah that race was famous for the Bright and Ambrose crash coming into the final turn when Marcus was trying to get in the pits

[JForce]

Is that the one that Lowdsey won after it was shortened due to rain?


OT, does anyone have any comparitive figures between a V8Supercar and a NASCAR? Could a V8Supercar beat them on say Watkins Glen or some other road course?

[TailHappy]

Originally posted by JForce
Is that the one that Lowdsey won after it was shortened due to rain?


OT, does anyone have any comparitive figures between a V8Supercar and a NASCAR? Could a V8Supercar beat them on say Watkins Glen or some other road course?

If I recall correctly they had NASCARs at the Melbourne GP in 99. I am pretty sure the laptimes were slower than the V8's. I particularly recall how much earlier they had to brake.

[AdrianM]

Originally posted by JForce
Is that the one that Lowdsey won after it was shortened due to rain?

Yeah. First win for FPR

[Todd]

Originally posted by JForce
Is that the one that Lowdsey won after it was shortened due to rain?


OT, does anyone have any comparitive figures between a V8Supercar and a NASCAR? Could a V8Supercar beat them on say Watkins Glen or some other road course?

I suspect a V8Supercar would own a Winston Cup car on a roadcourse. The Winston Cup car has over 800 hp, but its brakes need to live inside 15 inch rims, its rear axle is literally an axle, and it only has 4 gears to choose from. What does a V8 weigh? I think Winston Cup cars are 3,400 lbs(1,540 kgs).

[JForce]

Originally posted by Todd


I suspect a V8Supercar would own a Winston Cup car on a roadcourse. The Winston Cup car has over 800 hp, but its brakes need to live inside 15 inch rims, its rear axle is literally an axle, and it only has 4 gears to choose from. What does a V8 weigh? I think Winston Cup cars are 3,400 lbs(1,540 kgs).

1350kg minimum, with 17inch wheels. Here's the specs

[Exar Kun]

Yeah, and a live axle in Aussie V8s too. Given the fixed gear ratios they barely grab fifth on a couple of our tracks. I remember the NASCARs at Albert Park a few years ago too and they sure did have to brake eariler, didn't they! But these were older cars and I'm sure you'd have to knock off at least 2 or 3 seconds a lap if a modern cup car were to run. It'd be an interesting comparison, that's for sure.

[Jeff Henry]

Bathurst is the only V8 Supercar race worth watching.

[AdrianM]

Originally posted by Jeff Henry
Bathurst is the only V8 Supercar race worth watching.

The Clipsal 500 around the old F1 street circuit in Adelaide is also a must

[Jeff Henry]

Originally posted by AdrianM


The Clipsal 500 around the old F1 street circuit in Adelaide is also a must

Do they overtake?

[AdrianM]

Originally posted by Jeff Henry


Do they overtake?

They try to but in typical V8 style they don't and it leads to argy bargy.
But it is a great race

[Pilla]

Of course im going to have to mention Pukekohe as a good race

[Jeff Henry]

Originally posted by AdrianM


They try to but in typical V8 style they don't and it leads to argy bargy.
But it is a great race

Cart, IRL and now the Shell TC series.

Bathurst only.

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by Exar Kun
Yeah, and a live axle in Aussie V8s too. Given the fixed gear ratios they barely grab fifth on a couple of our tracks. I remember the NASCARs at Albert Park a few years ago too and they sure did have to brake eariler, didn't they! But these were older cars and I'm sure you'd have to knock off at least 2 or 3 seconds a lap if a modern cup car were to run. It'd be an interesting comparison, that's for sure.

NASCAR focuses almost entirely on ovals, though, how they perform under braking is very much a second thought.

jono

[Alfisti]

Todd,

You chose a bad year top wartch these cars, VERY boring this year though as usual Bathurst sounded great so watch that (the 1000 not the 24 hr) when it (eventually) comes on.

To answer your question, the engines are US sourced 5 litres, the rev limit is so low to increase the life of the engine because cost is a HUGE issue in Australia.

Drivers to watch are Holden: Skaife, Murphy, Richards, Tander, kelly .... and the enemy (Ford) Ambrose, ingall, Lownes, Bowe.

Bowe was fast about 10 years ago .. bit of a wanker actually.

PM me iof you need more details ... they are great to watch .... just not this year.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Alfisti
Todd,

You chose a bad year top wartch these cars, VERY boring this year though as usual Bathurst sounded great so watch that (the 1000 not the 24 hr) when it (eventually) comes on.

To answer your question, the engines are US sourced 5 litres, the rev limit is so low to increase the life of the engine because cost is a HUGE issue in Australia.

Drivers to watch are Holden: Skaife, Murphy, Richards, Tander, kelly .... and the enemy (Ford) Ambrose, ingall, Lownes, Bowe.

Bowe was fast about 10 years ago .. bit of a wanker actually.

PM me iof you need more details ... they are great to watch .... just not this year.

As a Ford fan, Ive enjoyed this year. The BA is far more competitive, leading to more open racing, rather than HRT waltzing it as usual. What haven't you liked?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Exar Kun
Yeah, and a live axle in Aussie V8s too.....

Well, yes, a live axle, but the Holdens (maybe the Fords too, now?) have the trickiest live axle you ever saw...

There's a big aluminium block on the end of the axle housing that carries the wheel bearing, and this is adjustable for camber. There's a CV joint inside the housing to enable the whole thing to work.

Originally posted by 'fisti
.....Bowe was fast about 10 years ago .. bit of a wanker actually.....

I think he's still fast. Didn't he set one of the fastest laps in the top ten thing?

He was extremely fast 20 years ago, 15 years ago was about the height of his powers, but he hasn't lost the plot yet. Particularly for Bathurst...

One of the only 'wanker' things I ever noted with him was once at Lakeside. Two Tasmanian drivers in Commodore Cup cars (Bowe's a Tasmanian, of course) were asking him about how to lap this tricky circuit quickly...

"It's a local knowledge thing," he said, "I couldn't match Dick's times here (he was in Dick Johnson's team) for the first couple of years till I really got to know the place. This Wakefield kid has grown up here, that's why he's blowing you off today."

Wayne Wakefield had that day stepped into a Commodore Cup car for the first time and had nearly a second on everyone else. Before the race, the main protagonists for the series had approached him and told him not to get in their way 'because we're fighting out a championship'... Wayne walked away thinking to himself, "Yeah, right, I paid $3000 to get into this race, as if I'll be sitting back and letting you win it!"

Come the start, Wayne blitzed away and had two seconds on them at the end of the first lap, won by half the length of the straight, apparently an unknown margin in Commodore Cup racing.

So it could have been local knowledge?

Well, the following meetings were at Winton and Oran Park, where Wayne was a virtual unknown. He was quickest there too...

You blokes missed out on Bowe at his best. When he was drafted into the Elfin team (circa 1978) he turned F2 on its head, was the man to challenge John Smith. He wasn't spectacular when he went into F5000 for a while, but caught up eventually, then really hit his straps in FPacific when he had the Lucky Nuts Ralt... but along the way he did paint a picture... like the day he went off at Calder and hit a photographer, was condemned by some for not stopping.

Very natural these days, been there and done that, and he can still do it all fairly well...

[DavidK]

Originally posted by Alfisti
Bowe was fast about 10 years ago .. bit of a wanker actually.

Disagree here, Bowe is still formidable given the right equipment, put him in a SBR Falcon he would kick ass.

As for ‘wankers’, seen any interviews with Skaife or Perkins recently.
They elevate the definition to new heights.

Originally posted by Alfisti
... they are great to watch .... just not this year.

Obviously Holden (GM), havent won enough races to suit your liking this year.

So in that honor, may I present these hi-res photos.
The new Ford BA Falcon, preferred weapon of choice for Ford pilots.

BA FALCON 01
BA FALCON 02

DavidK

[markzed]

Originally posted by Alfisti
Drivers to watch are Holden: Skaife, Murphy, Richards, Tander, kelly .... and the enemy (Ford) Ambrose, ingall, Lowndes, Bowe.

Boooooo! Hissssss!

I'm considering buying one of the Holden stadium cushions so the General can kiss my arse.

Skaife has been hot property over the last few years, but I don't particularly like him.
I guess Lowndes would be my favourite, even though I don't follow the series - I'm mainly a Bathurst 1000 fanatic.

Wasn't Tander a bit hot headed early in this year's Bathurst race? He spun Bowes car in the first 3 laps or so.

[Nasty McBastard]

thats tander for ya....

i still like bargs.....shame he went traitor.

[Slatz]

Originally posted by Jeff Henry


Do they overtake?

Lowndes won it from the back of the grid, and then Skaife did the same the year after. We've seen some fantastic wet races there.

[Alfisti]

FF Sake .....

It's been a boring year because the races have been processional. Even if HRT have won the CC easily the races have been good the past few years, especially amongst the top 10. This year was very pedestrian. For starters, i am an Alfa fan, so my allegience to Holden is hardly so strong that i'd determine a year tp be good or bad based on who won

As for Bowe, yes he is still fast, no arguments, but i meant he was "news" about 10 years ago.

Still a wanker though.

[Mr Tomalski]

I love the V8s, and prefer it to F1. Im in a semi non biased position as I own a SS Commodore 2001, and a 2002 XR8 ute, and really dont mind who wins as long as it isnt Schumi..I mean Skaife
Coming from the same town as Murph and knowing him personally, I have to support him, but then again, Im loving Ambrose sticking it to HRT this year as well.
Good to see Steve Ellery 3rd at Bathurst.
Good also to see 40 odd car fields, and lots of smacko and argy bargy.....

[AdrianM]

The problem with V8s is the organisation. The governing body still can't make up their mind on race formats, points etc. And the race stewards are idiots. Last year they gave Murphy a 5 minute penalty at Bathurst, and it took them 40 minutes to bring Skaife in.

[Wuzak]

The local NASCAR teams had a short race at Bathurst in th elead up to the 1000 a few years ago.

From memory, they were 4 or 5 seconds off the pace at Bathurst compared to the V8s - which were running around 2m13s/2m14s lap times at that stage.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Alfisti
Todd,

You chose a bad year top wartch these cars, VERY boring this year though as usual Bathurst sounded great so watch that (the 1000 not the 24 hr) when it (eventually) comes on.

To answer your question, the engines are US sourced 5 litres, the rev limit is so low to increase the life of the engine because cost is a HUGE issue in Australia.

Drivers to watch are Holden: Skaife, Murphy, Richards, Tander, kelly .... and the enemy (Ford) Ambrose, ingall, Lownes, Bowe.

Bowe was fast about 10 years ago .. bit of a wanker actually.

PM me iof you need more details ... they are great to watch .... just not this year.

Thanks for the info. Interesting that the Holdens run solid axles, as the versions of that platform sold in the US, like the Cadillac Catera, CTS, and expected GTO, all have independent rear suspensions. Maybe it is a bit like NASCAR after all.

[AS110]

Well,it is like NASCAR ,just the body shell is from the production car - the ones you buy off the floor have an independent rear end - cept the utes.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Todd


Thanks for the info. Interesting that the Holdens run solid axles, as the versions of that platform sold in the US, like the Cadillac Catera, CTS, and expected GTO, all have independent rear suspensions. Maybe it is a bit like NASCAR after all.

All the cars run solid axles.


When the series started in 1993 neither manufacturer offered IRS on their car. Holden introduced their semi-trailing arm suspension as an option a few years later, then made it standard on the next model update.

Ford didn't offer IRS until the 1998 AU Falcon, on which it was an option. It was a double wishbone style suspension. Ford made the IRS standard on the sedans last year with the new BA model. Utes, at least, still use a solid axle and leaf springs.


The V8Supercars have always run 4-link rear suspension, with Watts link. The front suspension has been based on the standard front suspension from the base car - which means double wishbone for the Falcon, and McPherson Strut from the Commodore.

From this season on, the aim is to equalise the cars as best as possible. To this end AVESCO has introduced "Project Blueprint".

AVESCO has run back to back tests of the new Ford and Holden to equalise aerodynamic performance. They have introduced common suspension pick up points for both - which also means that the new Holdens get the double wishbone front suspension.

Another area of change for the Holden is the engine. The Chevy engine they have been using since 1993 uses the siamese ports common to Chevy small blocks for many years. Under project blueprint the Chevys now use a Ford style head, with more uniform porting.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Todd


Thanks for the info. Interesting that the Holdens run solid axles, as the versions of that platform sold in the US, like the Cadillac Catera, CTS, and expected GTO, all have independent rear suspensions. Maybe it is a bit like NASCAR after all.

The Cadillac Catera and CTS are not on the same platform as the Holden Commodore.

The Pontiac GTO is in fact a Holden Monaro, which is based on the Commodore.

[Alfisti]

Yes Todd, i assume you are aware that the new GTO is actually an Australian car re-badged???

I know i sound like a broken record but after being in Toronto for a while now and having driven a few cars, well, it is very apparent that Holden and Ford Australia make a very, very good car. Behind the euro RWD sedans, yes, but at approx 40% cheaper .... well ... they are LIGHT years ahead of an Intrepid for example.

[Mr Carnteen]

Originally posted by AdrianM
The problem with V8s is the organisation. The governing body still can't make up their mind on race formats, points etc. And the race stewards are idiots. Last year they gave Murphy a 5 minute penalty at Bathurst, and it took them 40 minutes to bring Skaife in.

True, but at least they try to give what the fans want which is more than what can be said of the FIA.

Points system needs to be revised.... again. It rewards consistency to the point of madness.