53 replies to this topic

[Alexey Rogachev]

In 1969-70, two racing events were held in the USSR in which Finnish drivers took part. The first of them was Kalev Trophy (10th Kalev Suursõit) held at Pirita-Kose-Kloostrimetsa circuit on June 8, 1969. Its results were published on TNF some months ago, so the only thing about that race that I'd like to know are the exact marques of the cars that Finns were driving. Here is a picture of Matti Lamminen driving a F3 car equipped with Cosworth MAE engine. Books say it was a Tecno. Is it right? And what is the exact model of it? And Leo Kinnunen who was second is told to drive a Titan-Cosworth...


The second race was called 'Leningrad vs Helsinki' - it was held in early summer 1970 at Nevskoe Koltso. It included two races, the first with participants driving Moskvich-412 tourings, and the second with participants driving single-seaters (engine volume up to 1300 cc). The results of that race that I have are very poor. I only know that the touring cars race was won by Finnish Ensio Mikander (spelling?), Fedor Smurov was second, Vladimir Generalov was third.

The up-to-1300cc single-seaters race is a much more obscure matter as I don't know what cars Finns were driving. According to the reference book by A. Kurdzikauskas, they were F. Vee Kaymanns, but... look at the picture:

Can you see 'COLT' letters on the front of the car? So it's really beyond me what car it is! And what engine was it equipped with? The 1300 cc limit was set meanwhile the Soviet Estonias were equipped with 991 cc Wartburg units - judging by this, I conclude that Finnish drivers had 1300 cc cars.

[st59cz]

COLT is a brand of cigarettes.
Car on picture is FVee, correct spelling Kaimann

[Vitesse2]

F3 Tecnos didn't have type numbers as such, Alexey. The basic design hardly changed between 1967 and 1970 (when I think the last few were built) and they were usually identified by the year of manufacture, simply as Tecno 67, 68, 69 or 70, but the differences between them are very minor. Chances are it's a 69, since that was the year they built most of the customer cars and introduced their own version of the MAE, sold as a package with the chassis.

Leo Kinnunen's Titan was a Mk3, which was the only F3 model they built (although there was a one-off development called the Mk3A).

[humphries]

Vitesse

Tecno type numbering. Some journalists recorded F3 and F2 cars as TF/68, TF/69 etc. If this was an official designation I do not know and I am assuming that the TF stood for Tecno Formula. Does anybody know for sure?

John

[Alexey Rogachev]

Many thanks to all So I'll be here on this thread soon with the question about Curt Lincoln's cars in the 1961 Leningrad race!

[Alexey Rogachev]

Here are some photos of the 1961 Leningrad international race, and... a number of questions on them ;)



This is the starting grid of F3 race. Curt Lincoln is at the wheel of the car no. 24. It is said to be Norton-powered Cooper T42 Mk XII. Is it right? Did other Finns drive the same type of Cooper?



It is the front row of F. Junior race. Car no. 1 is driven by Lincoln, and I know that it was Cooper-BMC. But what is its exact type? Car no. 6 is definitely Leo Mattila's Lotus-20 powered by Ford-105E, but it's really beyond me what car the third Finn (Jouko Nordell) was driving. Perhaps his car is in the second row, and it looks like Cooper - but what type? And the third car in the front row is a very obscure matter. It isn't a Soviet car, therefore it is Polish or German. Can anyone determine its marque and type?



Curt Lincoln is overtaking a rival during F. Junior race - is car no. 7 Rak-Wartburg?



Of course you recognize Lincoln's Cooper Monaco. But could you please tell me what engine it was equipped with?

[David McKinney]

Lincoln's FJ Cooper was what was known at the time as a Mk2, being a development of the Mk1 as seen on the second row. Nowadays everyone calls them T56 and T52 respectively.
Nordell did race a Cooper in 1961, possibly the T52 in the picture
My first thought when I saw the third front-row FJ car was Saab - not Soviet, Polish or German, and I'm probably wrong anyway. What did a 1961 Melkus look like?
I always presumed Lincoln's Cooper Monaco was powered, at least at this stage, by 2-litre Climax FPF

[Vitesse2]

I think David's second guess on the third front row car is right - the nose looks like a Melkus to me (see Hodges A-Z p189). The Saab was much chunkier and squarer, with more bodywork ahead of the front suspension.

[Jonas]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
This is the starting grid of F3 race. Curt Lincoln is at the wheel of the car no. 24. It is said to be Norton-powered Cooper T42 Mk XII. Is it right? Did other Finns drive the same type of Cooper?

It is very probable that the Cooper shown in the picure is fitted with a Norton engine. If the picture was taken in 1961 it is also most likely that it is a Mk XII car. Lincoln also drove a Mk XI car for some period, but as late as 1961 it is probably the later Mk XII. But then the colour scheme doesn't match Lincoln's Mk XII car (Blue with white line).

There were other Finnish 500cc Cooper drivers aswell. For instance Heimo Hietarinta..

I posted a thread concerning Lincoln's 500cc Coopers a while ago, sadly without any replies..
Thread about Lincoln's Coopers

[anjakub]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
Curt Lincoln is overtaking a rival during F. Junior race - is car no. 7 Rak-Wartburg?

Evidently, Rak-Wartburg. In 1961 Leningrad international race with no. 7 Jerzy Jankowski and with no. 8 Antoni Weiner.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Originally posted by David McKinney
What did a 1961 Melkus look like?

David,

I have a picture of Wartburg-powered Melkus-61 - I'll try to post it to this thread tomorrow.

And many, many thanks to everyone who has helped me with Finnish drivers' cars!

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev

David,
I have a picture of Wartburg-powered Melkus-61 - I'll try to post it to this thread tomorrow.

Don't bother on my account, Alexey.
I have photos of a 1961 Melkus - I was just being lazy in my earlier post (or rhetorical?)

[Alexey Rogachev]

Originally posted by Jonas
There were other Finnish 500cc Cooper drivers aswell. For instance Heimo Hietarinta..

Was his name Heino or Heimo? Yes, Hietarinta took part in F3 race as well as Seppo Rikille, but both of them retired. Also Hietarinta drove the 3.8-litre Jaguar-D in F. Libre race and naturally won it. The 2nd place was taken by Ludvig Korge at the wheel of 2.445-litre Volga-powered GA-22, and he was less than 1 lap behind Hietarinta! By the way, in F3 race, Lincoln was 2 laps ahead of Yuri Bugrov who was driving an IMZ-powered Estonia-3, and in sportscars race, Lincoln was 5 laps ahead of Alexandr Sukhovey, although Alexandr was at the wheel of 2.445-litre KVN-2500S sportscar, and Lincoln' car was, as David McKinney said, equipped with 2-litre engine. Later, in 1963, Ants Seiler, famous Estonian racing driver and racing cars designer, built Tartu-2 Volga-powered sportscar with Cooper-Monaco as a model. Here is a photo of this car:

[Pavel Lifintsev]

Here is another one picture of Curt Lincoln at the wheel of Formula Junior Cooper T56-BMC in the 1961 Leningrad race:



...and a couple of photos already posted by Alexey, but in a little better quality:



By the way, Jaguar D-type (chassis No. XKD 530) raced in that event by Heimo Hietarinta, also was owned by Curt Lincoln.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Originally posted by .ru
...and a couple of photos already posted by Alexey, but in a little better quality:

A little better quality, you say... You'd better say, a little larger size...

[Jonas]

On the photo showing two F3 Coopers we now see that the other car (the one with no visible number) carries the Finnish flag on its side. So, who would be the driver of this car? Hietarinta?

Are you really sure that number 24 was indeed the car driven by Lincoln?
Because I would rather have said the OTHER car was Lincoln's..

[Alexey Rogachev]

The photo of F3 cars has been taken from 'Automotosport' magazine where commentary upon it says that car #24 is Lincoln's one. There were two other Finns in F3 race, and definitely another Cooper is driven by one of them - either Hietarinta of Rikille. All Soviet drivers were at the wheels of Estonias, and I think there were no Polish or German entries in F3 race.

[Pavel Lifintsev]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
Later, in 1963, Ants Seiler, famous Estonian racing driver and racing cars designer, built Tartu-2 Volga-powered sportscar with Cooper-Monaco as a model.

A Tartu-2, you say... You'd better say, a Tartu-1...

[Pavel Lifintsev]

Originally posted by Jonas
But then the colour scheme doesn't match Lincoln's Mk XII car (Blue with white line).
...
I would rather have said the OTHER car was Lincoln's..

The colours are definitely different, but the scheme - I mean form and location of the lines - looks alike used on Curt Lincoln's cars at least in the earlier years. Just compare it with this 1958 picture:

[Jonas]

Originally posted by .ru
The colours are definitely different, but the scheme - I mean form and location of the lines - looks alike used on Curt Lincoln's cars at least in the earlier years.

Yes, you're right about that! I forgot to mention that in my earlier post. The car painted in blue with a white stripe was, I believe, Lincoln's 1958 Mk XII car.

I saw this car at a historic racing event at Knutstorp in Sweden a few years ago. Still in the same colour scheme. It was driven by a Finnish guy.
The fact that there was a car with the same colour scheme, only inverted, can perhaps be explained by the cars belonging to the same team?


Here we can see the car that I believed was the one driven by Lincoln in Leningrad 1961 (at least the colour, with a white dot in the front, indicates this) ahead of the blue/white Mk XII.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Originally posted by .ru

A Tartu-2, you say... You'd better say, a Tartu-1...

.ru, mea culpa 1:1!!!

[Pavel Lifintsev]

In March issue of Russian ''Formula'' magazine appeared an interesting story of Kimi Räikkönen's racing experience in Russia in the late 90's. Curious thing, he took part in... no less than Russian Grands Prix! Sure, these were only snowy karting races and I doubt whether anybody then could see in that modest Finnish guy future Formula One star, but his main rival, Mikhail Mitrokhin, remembering battles with Kimi claims his nature hardly changed ever since:

''Absolutely phlegmatic outside track, Räikkönen became very different while racing. Despite I have always won from him, he was very quick. His feeling of the car obviously was excellent. Perhaps not well experienced at that time he already was a great driver.''

Last time Kimi visited Russia in 1999. Right after his fourth race at Sosnovy Bor near St. Petersburg he had flown to Portugal where he made his first Formula Renault tests. Certain Mika Häkkinen was about to clinch his second world champion title...

[Alexey Rogachev]

Properly speaking, this message is about Swedish drivers racing in the USSR - I wouldn't like to start a new thread and so chose the more appropriate existing one. In 1988, four Swedish drivers took part in the Baltic Championship, held at Bikernieki. They were driving the Scandinavian F4 cars with VW1600 engines: M. Nordland (Reynard 83SF), B. Sandström (Reynard 853), Henert Person (Ralt RT3), and K. Skabi (Ralt RT30). Can anyone of our Swedish colleagues supplement this short list with full drivers' names? Searching on the web gave no result - there are too much Nordlands and Sandströms in Sweden

[rx-guru]

Hi Alexey, I don’t know if this is interesting for you but it fits to the title of this thread anyway. In 1988 some Finns took part in a Rallycross at Vasalemma in Estonia. Among others: Pasi Mastonen (ARG MG Metro 6R4), Pekka Rantanen (Ford RS200 E2), Pauli Silvennoinen (Porsche 911 BiTurbo 4x4) and Mauno Jokinen (Porsche 911 BiTurbo 4x4).

[RacingCompagniet]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
Properly speaking, this message is about Swedish drivers racing in the USSR - I wouldn't like to start a new thread and so chose the more appropriate existing one. In 1988, four Swedish drivers took part in the Baltic Championship, held at Bikernieki. They were driving the Scandinavian F4 cars with VW1600 engines: M. Nordland (Reynard 83SF), B. Sandström (Reynard 853), Henert Person (Ralt RT3), and K. Skabi (Ralt RT30). Can anyone of our Swedish colleagues supplement this short list with full drivers' names? Searching on the web gave no result - there are too much Nordlands and Sandströms in Sweden

Alex,

B. Sandström´s first name is Bertil, i.e. Bertil Sandström. "Henert" Person must be Kennerth Persson, who was a very successful Formula Super Vee driver during the 70´s. K. Skabi is probably Christer Skaby, who drove Formula Vee (and probably its continuation Formula 4) for some time. I am not sure about M. Nordland, but somewhere at the back of my head there is a Mikael Nordlander. Maybe that is the guy.

Regards

[Alexey Rogachev]

Thank you very much!

Originally posted by rx-guru
Hi Alexey, I don’t know if this is interesting for you but it fits to the title of this thread anyway <...>

Generally speaking, Finnish drivers were not rare guests on Soviet racing tracks - for instance, they regularly took part in motorcycle "Kalevi Suursõit" and, as far as I know, that 1988 Vasalemma rallycross wasn't the only one with foreign entries, too. It was only motor sport where Finns participated in very few events: Leningrad '61, Tallinn '69, Leningrad '70, and then from 1989 onwards in Riga.

[rx-guru]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
[…] that 1988 Vasalemma rallycross wasn't the only one with foreign entries, too.

But it’s the only one I have some pictures of…

They were all taken by my old friend Margus H. Kuuse from Tallinn who did a story on Estonian "Rallycross" already for my Rallycross Yearbook of 1982. BTW, I did not here anything from him for many a year and wonder if he is still alive and kicking around.

[Bonde]

Alexey,

FWIW, reference the Formula Vee picture in your opening post:

The car could be an early Finnish Veemax, as early Kaimanns were Beach clones and later ones more wedge-shaped (as were Veemaxes).

Even though the Estonias only had one litre engines, I suspect they would have had considerably more power than the FVee 1300 tune of the day, and with proper suspension and probably better tires they would have handled better than the Formula Vees also. I suspect they allowed FVees to compete simply to get more entries.



Anyway, carry on, gents.

BTW and sligthly O/T, I vaguely recall there was (a rather pretty, IIRC) female Swedish F4 driver in the early 1990s -anyone recall who she might have been?

[Alexey Rogachev]

I have found two pics of the 1969 Veemax Mk III B on the web - definitely it is the same car than the one from my first message! A very specific structure of the front suspension is the best possible argument...

Estonia 9 single-seaters had 80-hp Wartburg engines - I don't know whether it is more than F. Vee cars had and, if so, how much more. Re tyres... the very first Estonia 9, which appeared in 1966, was equipped with Dunlop CR48 but I don't think that many Soviet racing drivers had a possibility to get tyres from abroad.

rx-guru: Margus-Hans Kuuse has been registered here on TNF but posted very few messages, the latest of them was about three years ago. He is said to retire from any motorsport and journalistic activities now.

[Bonde]

Alexey,



The Formula Vee front suspension on the car shown is the standard post-1965 ball-joint twin trailing arm 'beam', which is used essentially unmodified from the VW type 1. Along with the engine, transaxle, steering, brakes, wheels and rear swing axles, the front suspension is mandatory VW type 1 kit in the FVee rules. Some FVee cars (and US and other countries rules) use(d) the pre-1965 link-pin front suspension, which had more slender damper towers. Other later (from 1972) regulations permitted cutting down the damper towers, which improved appearance of these cars significantly IMO. The pre-1972 single carb FVee 1300 tune would have provided about 65 bhp, and minimum weight was 375kg, so the Estonias would still have had a superior mass-to-power ratio. FVee tyres were 15" x 4.50" and 15" x 5.00" IIRC, and many countries did allow racing tyres - in Europe this would almost universally have been Dunop Racing. Also, in spite of the flat engine, many FVees had a rather high centre of gravity, partly due to a high ground clearance (some rules mandated 100mm minimum), partly due to the rather short wheelbase required (2070 mm min. 2120 mm max.) and standard pedals/front beam forcing the driver to sit rather upright due to the resulting short cockpit floor length.

Sorry about that long post - I just happen to like Vees, inspite (or because of?) their "gawkyness"...

[Alexey Rogachev]

Originally posted by Bonde
The pre-1972 single carb FVee 1300 tune would have provided about 65 bhp, and minimum weight was 375kg, so the Estonias would still have had a superior mass-to-power ratio.

F. Vee cars: 65 hp, 375 kg, 5.77 kg/hp
Estonia 9: 80 hp, 420 kg, 5.25 kg/hp

Not a big advantage, and the race proved it, since Vladimir Grekov won it only 0.1 s ahead of Pekka Vilpponen.

[Bonde]

Interesting - thanks, Alexey!

65 bhp may have been a little optimistic for the Vees, but I'm still surprised a Vee could come that close to an FJ/F3 car - I wonder what tyres they each were running on. Then again, Vees were (and are) claimed to provide a very good cost-to-performance ratio. There's a clip somewhere on YouTube of a Vee following a BMW F2 (Hahne?) around the Nürburgring at quite a pace in 1967...

Anyway, apologies for the derail (and FVee 'plugging';) )

[Alexey Rogachev]

Anders, no problem, it's really interesting to compare the late 60's Soviet Formula 3 cars with contemporary foreign single-seaters As Estonia 9 couldn't compete with Western F3 cars as equals (which was distinctly shown in 1969 by the race at Pirita), the organizers of that "Leningrad vs Helsinki" event obviously decided to invite Finnish drivers with something less powerful and fast than the Cosworth-powered Tecnos and Titans...

BTW, what was the aforementioned figure of 375 kg - dry weight or full weight?

[Bonde]

Alexey,

The 375kg was race-ready minus driver and fuel. I believe the 375Kg weight limit is still in force with some current FVee regulations, although I would suspect most rules would have added some kilogrammes for safety improvements.

Considering their circumstances and what was available to them, I think allthe constructors and drivers behind the Iron Curtain should be very, very proud of what they achieved.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Anders, they were mainly great enthusiasts of motor sport, who did as much as possible, and sometimes even more than possible - despite all difficulties... However, as compared to international racing, very few projects could have been competitive: GAZ TR and HADI 9 jet record cars, and Moskvich GD1 Formula 1 engine.

Now, back to the subject I have checked the weight of an Estonia 9 once more - yes, that 420 kg was similar to 375 kg in F. Vee: a "prêt-à-courir" car without fuel and driver. The maximum speed was about 190 km/h, and the 1-km time with standing start was 29 s. And what about F. Vee cars?

[Bonde]

Alexey,

I don't know the acceleration figures for an FVee (I can tell you once I get around to completing restoration of my own 1966 vintage FVee!), but top speeds were typically around the 165 km/h mark. With its relatively big and lazy engine (compared to the Wartburg), the Vee may have been more flexible and tractable at the low end, which may have helped on twistier circuits.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Originally posted by Bonde
...the Vee may have been more flexible and tractable at the low end, which may have helped on twistier circuits.

...and Nevskoe Koltso, where that event was held, was really twisty! (http://www.stop-n-go.../neva_ring.html)

[Bonde]

Now that is an unusual circuit! It looks narrow. How long was it?

BTW, I'm suprised that 'start' and 'finish' are spelled in cyrillic just like 'start' and 'finish'!

[fines]

I don't know the English word for it, but in German it's called "Lehnwort": the word is "loaned" from another language because there's either no suitable word, or it's just fashionable to do so, and it becomes part of the other language. クリスマス is another example of this, in Japanese: it's pronounced approximately "KuRISuMASu", and means: Christmas!

[Alexey Rogachev]

!!!

Lehnwort's are not as rare as you think, Anders ;) "Start" and "finish" have become international words, and they appeared in Russian, too - more than hundred years ago...

Nevskoe Koltso was 3.26-km long, the track width was 12 m.

[Bonde]

Yes, in Danish we've also got "låneord". We also use 'start' but not 'finish'.

I learn something on TNF everytime I visit - even if not directly motorsports-related.

[Alexey Rogachev]

One more Swedish driver at Bikernieki: Ulf Johansson, Bikernieki Cup, July 16th, 1989. What is his car? I have browsed the Ralt, Reynard and Dallara (most popular Scandinavian F4 cars) sections of Darren Galpin's 'A-Z of racing cars' but haven't found anything similar.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Ulf Johansson used a slightly modified Ralt RT30. He has removed the side-pods.

[Tomas Karlsson]

Just a small note for an old post:

Yes, Hietarinta took part in F3 race as well as Seppo Rikille, but both of them retired.

It's Seppo Rikkilä.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Taking risk of being called a necroposter, I still dare resurrect this old stupid thread. The reason to do so is as follows. Being in course of writing a big and detailed article on the first international racing event in the USSR (August 1961, Leningrad), I feel it reasonable to know if there was any reaction to it in Finnish motorsport press: three heats of four were won by Curt Lincoln and one by Heimo Hietarinta. However, I don't know any Finnish periodicals where one can expect to find some race reports. Maybe someone here can provide some names? If so, I'm sure I would be able to find them in the library. As to reading, my knowledge of Estonian must help me in it.

[proviz]

There certainly was some reaction, I remember seeing something in Carl-Otto Bremer's scrap book. It will take some time to check and I'm too busy to do much about it right now, but will pass your message forward to someone who may have the relevant magazines. In fact, I believe there might have been a photo and a brief report even in Finland's most important newspaper Helsingin Sanomat.

[Alexey Rogachev]

I'm sorry, somehow I missed your reply. Thanks a lot, I've never thought that the main Finnish newspaper might pay any attention to the racing event in Leningrad. Anyway, I'll try to find it.

[Alexander M]

Oh, good I have stumbled upon this revived thread!

 

@proviz, as far as I know, Carl-Otto Bremer was also expected to be racing in USSR in 1961 with a Ferrari. Is there any information on that? Why didn't he come?

[proviz]

People who were close to him (his cousin and his mechanic) are guessing that Carl-Otto Bremer was feeling edgy about the political situation, there was some apprehension in relations with Soviet Union at the time. Carl-Otto Bremer's father Väinö was a famed pilot, who had contacts in the army and he may have had some information from those circles. I'm told the Bremers shipped some of their more valuable cars to Sweden and even had two "escape" Saabs in case they needed to leave in a hurry...

To me that all sounds a bit far fetched, but these assumptions come from people who were there.

BTW I'll check Bremer's scrap books next week, so hopefully will come across a report of that Leningrad race. 

[proviz]

Further to the post above, against Carl-Otto Bremer's wishes his mechanic did in fact join that Finnish entourage to Leningrad. I understand a good time was had by all, so Bremer may have regretted his decision not to go.