18 replies to this topic

[Jimmy Piget]

A very versatile thread...

- In June 1909, it seems that a race took place in la Habana (Cuba), won by a Berliet. No driver mentioned by the "Berliet foundation" bulletin.

- on May 17, 1925, there was the "Match des Bolides" at Montlhéry. Who won ?

- Griswold's Alfa-Romeo won the 1940 New York GP. Was it at Syracuse ? What was the precise date ?

And, at least, has somebody unveiled the winners for the Brasov GP (Romania) for 1937 & 1939 ?

[David McKinney]

- on May 17, 1925, there was the "Match des Bolides" at Montlhéry. Parry Thomas (Leyland-Thomas)

- Griswold's Alfa-Romeo won the 1940 New York GP. Was it at Syracuse ? What was the precise date ?I presume you are referring to the World’s Fair GP, held on 6 October in the parking lot of the World's Fair, at Flushing Meadows, New York

And, at least, has somebody unveiled the winners for the Brasov GP (Romania) for 1937 & 1939 ? Petre Cristea (BMW 328) won the 1937 and 1938 races and was second in 1939 behind Dr Fritz Werneck in another BMW 328

[Hans Etzrodt]

Sunday, May 17, 1925 after the opening race at Montlhéry (500 km race for 1.5-liter unblown cars won by Duller on a Talbot) a more interesting race between 3 cars took place over 6 laps, won by Parry Thomas (Leyland) at 126 mph , beating the huge Fiat of Eldridge and a 180 hp Borgenschutz.

[Boniver]

Jimmy,

was it 1940 or 1948

Road Racing came to Watkins Glen in 1948; the projected was initiated by Cameron Argetsinger, an Ohio resident who often stayed at his father's summer house on Seneca Lake. Argetsinger, an early member of the SCCA, proposed a an amateur Road Race to be called the "Watkins Glen Grand Prix" to the Watkins Glen Chamber of Commerce. The Chamber was enthusiastic; Argetsinger selected a 6.6 mile course using paved, gravel, and dirt roads, permissions were obtained to close a NYC railroad track and the roads needed, and SCCA sanction was obtained. The first race was held at 12 Noon on October 2nd, 1948, a 4 lap qualifying race with a standing start. Subsequently, 15 cars started the 8 lap, 52.8 mile Grand Prix, and 10 finished. The winner was Frank Griswold, of Wayne, Pennsylvania, in a pre-war Alfa Romeo 8C2900 coupe, closely followed by Briggs Cunningham in his infamous Bu-Merc. Other prominent entrants included William Milliken, the noted Aircraft and Race Vehicle dynamics expert-to-be (who rolled his Bugatti 35 on the last lap of the qualifier, giving "Milliken's Bend" its name), Charles Addams, the cartoonist who created the Addams' Family, and Miles and Sam Collier, major figures in the early history of US Road Racing (it should be noted that Milliken and Argetsinger were original members of the first SCCA Competition Board, holding competition licenses numbers 6 and 1, respectively. Milliken wrote the actual supplemental regulations for the first Watkins Glen race.)

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
beating the huge Fiat of Eldridge and a 180 hp Borgenschutz.

Quite easily, after the Fiat burst a tyre and the Borgenschutz blew its engine

[fines]

Sorry to be pedantic, but it's Bogenschultz!

Ask Doug...

[Jimmy Piget]

Thanks you all !

BTW, who was the driver of the Bogenschultz ?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
Thanks you all !
BTW, who was the driver of the Bogenschultz ?

I have the driver's name as Borgenschutz - same as the car
(Funny that Hans and I, working independently on different sides of the world, have this spelling : )

[Jimmy Piget]

Cuba 1909 ?

[Jimmy Piget]

"Borgenschutz" — that's the way Bill Boddy spelled it in his Brooklands book on aero engines.

But he only mentioned the car as a contender of the 1925 Montlhéry race.
Not mentioned at all in his Brooklands Story book.
Not mentioned by Georgano.

What was this car ? What engine ? Where did it come from ? Germany, Austria ?

What about another match race at Montlhéry in June 1926, featuring Eldridge's Mephistopheles ? Who won ?

[Doug Nye]

Gentlemen - may I present Herr Bogenschulz in his devastatingly pretty Bogenschulz apparently at Gaillon hill-climb in 1924. This is the spelling, date and location in the caption scratched into the emulsion of the original glass-plate negative for this photo.

Photo via The GP Library



DCN

[Jimmy Piget]

Thanks a lot, Doug.
Yes, a very pretty car — a body inspired by Opel ?
And perhaps an aero engine, but which one ?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
.....And perhaps an aero engine, but which one ?

Ask the riding mechanic, he seems to have little on his plate at the moment...

So now there's three spellings... well done!

[David McKinney]

The only information I have is that it was a 180hp aero engine

[robert dick]

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
[BWhat about another match race at Montlhéry in June 1926, featuring Eldridge's Mephistopheles ? Who won ? [/B]

Posted by Quintin Cloud on 8 May 2001, “1924 race results” thread :

Match des Champions
12 October 1924, Montlhery, 6 laps 15.00/ 9.32 miles (194.384 kmh/120.785 mph)
FP Driver Car Time-laps / Reason of Retirement
1 Ernest Eldridge Fiat 4.37.8
2 Parry Thomas Thomas Sp. Leyland Eight 6
3 Arthur Duray D'Aoust Hispano-Suiza 6

= = = = =

Bogenschulz : is also the spelling given by “La Vie Automobile”, although Bogenschutz (from the German Bogenschütze = archer) would be more probable.
No indication about the engine. But 180 HP should be the usual ex-WWI Hispano Vee-eight (although the radiator is rather large - had Monsieur Bogenschulz converted the Vee-eight to thermosyphon cooling? )

= = = = =

Couldn’t find anything about the 1909 Cuba/La Habana race and Berliet.

[Jimmy Piget]

I'm still looking for a Montlhéry match race in June 1925, involving Divo (Delage), Parry Thomas & Eldridge.
Who won ?

[David McKinney]

The May race was not considered very satisfactory, so a rematch was scheduled for the 8 June meeting. Divo came home in first place with Thomas second and Eldridge third. The Borgenschutz/Bogenschulz was apparently a starter again, but was not in the same league.

[Marcor]

Sunday June 7th,1925 (part of a Monthléry Meeting)

Prix Fay, final, 6 laps
1- Divo (Delage 12 cyl) in 4 m 28 s 4/5 (205.640 km/h)
2- J. P. Thomas (Leyland 8 cyl 89 x 146 7166 cc)
3- Eldridge (Fiat 300 HP 6 cyl 160 x 180 21716 cc)

NQ- Bogenschutz (Special with Hispano Aircraft engine 180 HP)

Heat 1, 4 laps
1- Thomas in 3 m 14 s 2/5 (188.656 km/h)
2- Bogenschutz in 3 m 29 s 4/5

Heat 2, 4 laps
1- Divo in 3 m 06 s 2/5 (196.018 km/h)
2- Eldridge in 3 m 22 s 3/5

[robert dick]

Bogenschulz/Bogenschutz :

from "Omnia", 1924, page 582, results of the Gaillon hillclimb (28 September 1924) :
Voitures de Course :
1.1 litre - 1) Mestivier (Amilcar), 43" 1
1.5 litre - 1) Scales (Talbot), 37" 1
2 litre - 1) Dutilleux (Bugatti), 38" 4
over 5 litre - 1) Bogenschutz (Bogenschutz), 41" 4 (Bogenschutz written with "t")
Hors classement - Ivy Cummings (Frazer Nash), 42" 2