17 replies to this topic

[Gilles Maltais]

Hi !

I'm working on a F2 mod for Grand Prix Legends and I'm gathering information about these wonderful cars to modelize them the best I can. So every bit of information like anecdotes, pictures, is welcome.

Do you happen to know the specs (displacement, number of valves, power, torque, etc.) about these engines, used in the 1967 F2 races ?

Ford FVA
Ford TC
BMW Apfelbeck
other Fords
Ford SCB
Ferrari V6 166
Repco ?
Alfa Romeo
Ford SCA


Thanks !

Gilles Maltais
maltais@cybernaute.com

[Ray Bell]

Ford FVA - 4 cylinders/16 valves/220bhp
Ford TC - 4/8/180bhp
BMW Apfelbeck 4/16 arranged radially/?
other Fords - who'd bother?
Ford SCB - never heard of this one
Ferrari V6 166 - V6/12(& 18?)/more than 220
Repco ? - none of these in F2
Alfa Romeo - 4/16/? (GTA engine)
Ford SCA - 4/8/about 145 or so, I guess... but that was only till '66, when the formula was for 1-litre.

If you include it, then you have to include Holbay downdraft conversions of the 997 etc Ford, where inlet ports were cut into the top of the head, and you certainly have to include the Honda twin cams with (I think) 16 valves and torsion bar valve closing.

[RJH]

As I recall the SCB was a stroked and stretched SCA, around 1500cc a way of extending the investment into the 1600cc F2.

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Ford FVA - 4 cylinders/16 valves/220bhp
Ford TC - 4/8/180bhp
BMW Apfelbeck 4/16 arranged radially/?
other Fords - who'd bother?
Ford SCB - never heard of this one
Ferrari V6 166 - V6/12(& 18?)/more than 220
Repco ? - none of these in F2
Alfa Romeo - 4/16/? (GTA engine)
Ford SCA - 4/8/about 145 or so, I guess... but that was only till '66, when the formula was for 1-litre.

If you include it, then you have to include Holbay downdraft conversions of the 997 etc Ford, where inlet ports were cut into the top of the head, and you certainly have to include the Honda twin cams with (I think) 16 valves and torsion bar valve closing.

Ray

Honda twin-cam F2 engines as used in the F2 Brabham BT16 and BT18 in 65 and 66 are a bit of a mystery to me, yet I've read Ron Tauranac's biography. I have never seen a photo of one of these important engines. It really is this engine and not the early V12s that paved the way for the Honda dominance to come. But the 1.0 four is all but forgotten now.

Do you have any photos, and did all the Brabham Hondas end up back at the Honda factory or are there some in "captivity" in private hands.

[Richard Neale]

SCB was an Experimental Engine only ~ Don't think any escaped. It was a development of SCA.

[RTH]

Originally posted by Paul Newby




Honda twin-cam F2 engines as used in the F2 Brabham BT16 and BT18 in 65 and 66

Do you have any photos, and did all the Brabham Hondas end up back at the Honda factory or are there some in "captivity" in private hands.

The engines all went back to Honda and are in their museum - a UK Honda club official went out to Japan to make representations to them for the loan of one for a Brabham a couple of years ago - but they politely declined.

[ian senior]

Saw an article in an old magazine recently (1967 I think) which carried a picture of a new Vegantune F2 engine that was to be used in the works Alexis cars in the forthcoming season. Based on the usual Ford block, the engine looked a little odd in that the intake trumpets were mounted on top of the cam covers. Guess it never amounted to anything.

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by RTH


The engines all went back to Honda and are in their museum - a UK Honda club official went out to Japan to make representations to them for the loan of one for a Brabham a couple of years ago - but they politely declined.

Thanks for that RTH. No wonder not a lot is known about these engines!

[jph]

I remember reading at the time that Weslake were planning to build an engine based on the Rootes/Chrysler 1725cc block, fitted with a four valve twin OHC head. Does anyone know whether this ever saw the light of day, or did it never get beyond the stage of being an idea?

[vandem]

Good luck with your mod. I am currently reading DCN's "Dino - the little Ferrari", I hope he won't mind if I reproduce some of his info on the 1967-68-69 Ferrari Dino 166 F2:

1967. Prototype displayed at Turin racing car Show in February. Engine 18V, 200 bhp. Wheelbase 86.6 in, track 55.3 / 56.1 in. Weight 937 lb. 5 spoke Campagnolo wheels. Raced only once, retired, #26 Jonathon Williams at Rouen in July.

1968. Successful season in Europe and Argentina. Engine 24V, 225 bhp. Wheelbase 89.8 in, track 55.3 / 56.5 in. Weight 948 lb. From July cars ran with chassis mounted rear wing, and triangular tabs on either side of the nose cone.

1969. Poor season. Engine 24V, 230 bhp.

There are several good photos of the F2 Ferrari in the book (including one well taken by DCN himself!). The Turin show car had exhausts exiting over the rear suspension, but the raced versions had the pipes re-routed to just below the half-shafts. The show car was also missing the NACA ducts that the race versions had just ahead of the front axle line.

[RJH]

I beleive the Weslake 16v engine based on the Rootes/Chrysler block 'morphed' into the ROC-Simca engine used in a variety of F2 Chevrons and European Sports Car Championship cars. These engines still appear in French Hillclimbs.

[Ray Bell]

Surely that was built on a later block, not that revamped relic from the early fifties?

[jph]

Surely that was built on a later block, not that revamped relic from the early fifties?

I think that's right - the ROC engines, IIRC, were based on the Chrysler 180 block, a SOHC engine which first saw the light of day in the early 70s. The Rootes engine had its origins in the mid 50s, starting life as a pushrod 3 bearing engine of just under 1400cc, gradually growing to a 5 bearing 1725cc engine by the late 60s. Workhorse might be a politer (though probably no more accurate) term than relic, but probably no more so than the equivalent Ford 'Kent' engine. The Rootes engine was never graced with an OHC head in production form, though.

[RJH]

Oops!! I stand corrected.
Roger

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by jph
.....based on the Chrysler 180 block, a SOHC engine which first saw the light of day in the early 70s.....

The Centura 2-litre engine in Australia... a strange and mystical looking block...

Amazing that the Hillman engine was never stretched very far from its original 1400cc form... the Ford, after all, went from 997 to 1601 in production. But it was never as solid as the Rootes lump.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Amazing that the Hillman engine was never stretched very far from its original 1400cc form... the Ford, after all, went from 997 to 1601 in production. But it was never as solid as the Rootes lump.

New Zealanders took the Rootes engine out to over 1800cc - I even think someone cracked two litres, though that seems excessive (and my memory's not what it was). We're talking racing applications here, of course, not production.

[Ray Bell]

Naturally... in racing the Ford went to at least 1860cc (the first TC4V, John Harvey's Brabham among others...), and with special blocks to 2-litres.

Though it was robust, there was never much interest shown in this engine in racing applications. Paul Bolton had a sedan with one that flew, there was the odd Jolus Minx and that kind of car, and Harry Lefoe's rotten little Argus, but not nearly so many as there was Fords or BMCs or Peugeots. In weight it think it lay between the Ford and BMC, while it had the advantage of individual ports like the Ford, not siamesed like the B-series. Really strange it didn't see much more use.

One weakness it appeared to have was that it had UNF threads in the block for the head bolts, which were 7/16"... these were capable of stripping if care wasn't taken.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
...Honda twin-cam F2 engines as used in the F2 Brabham BT16 and BT18 in 65 and 66 are a bit of a mystery to me... I have never seen a photo of one of these important engines. It really is this engine and not the early V12s that paved the way for the Honda dominance to come. But the 1.0 four is all but forgotten now.

Do you have any photos....

'Cirrus' has posted some fine ones on this thread <http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=62974>

DCN