94 replies to this topic

[austin]

I've never seen a full onboard lap of Prost before, but I found one the other day. It's amazing how smooth he is with the steering wheel.

Here's the link (up for a limited time only)
http://www.ews.uiuc....MonacoProst.mpg

For comparison, here is a lap of Senna.
http://webhome.idire...nna_qualif.mpeg

[raceday]

Originally posted by austin
I've never seen a full onboard lap of Prost before, but I found one the other day. It's amazing how smooth he is with the steering wheel.

Here's the link (up for a limited time only)
http://www.ews.uiuc....MonacoProst.mpg

For comparison, here is a lap of Senna.
http://webhome.idire...nna_qualif.mpeg

Yeah he was smooth with the steering wheel and with pretty much everything having to do with the equipment. The reason why he was called the professor was his fantastic ability to think of and through the whole race while racing hard, often saving his equipment early on and then in the end of the race putting on relentless pressure.

I don't think senna did that many corrections with the steeering wheel, that's what MS was known for before, but as far as I've understood he was pumping with the gas pedal pretty much more than most.

Cool links

[MJP]

Originally posted by austin
I've never seen a full onboard lap of Prost before, but I found one the other day. It's amazing how smooth he is with the steering wheel.

Here's the link (up for a limited time only)
http://www.ews.uiuc....MonacoProst.mpg

For comparison, here is a lap of Senna.
http://webhome.idire...nna_qualif.mpeg

I do not have the quote anymore, but it had been said by Good Year, that after race the tires off Alain's car were in best shape and stood apart from anyone else; which is I think testimony not only to car set-up, but smoothness how Prost took his racing line and which you had observed.

[Newtown]

Not to undermind what you are trying to say with this thread, and not to say that Prost wasn't as smooth as he was in that video, but that lap has got to be during practice. His car doesn't look like it's being pushed very hard, nor does it look like it's going fast through the swimming pool area and the way he lackadaisically passed that other car showed that it cannot be during a race, noone would give up a position THAT easily. Well, come to think of it, perhaps he was on an outlap during qualifying? If so, the next lap would have been truely interesting to see!

(btw, I'd appreciate not being flamed if you think I'm wrong, thanks)

[Rene]

Originally posted by Newtown
Not to undermind what you are trying to say with this thread, and not to say that Prost wasn't as smooth as he was in that video, but that lap has got to be during practice. His car doesn't look like it's being pushed very hard, nor does it look like it's going fast through the swimming pool area and the way he lackadaisically passed that other car showed that it cannot be during a race, noone would give up a position THAT easily. Well, come to think of it, perhaps he was on an outlap during qualifying? If so, the next lap would have been truely interesting to see!

(btw, I'd appreciate not being flamed if you think I'm wrong, thanks)

But thats the thing about Prost....he often drove so smooth, especially from an onboard shot, that you couldn't believe how fast he was actually going!

As for this particular lap time (1983 Monaco), I think the firstlap is Prost's out lap, while the second lap (we get to see about 1/2 the lap) is in fact his Pole Setting Lap....1'24.840

[Williams]

"When I look fast, I'm not smooth and I am going slowly, and when I look slow, I am smooth and going fast."

-Alain Prost

[Rich]

No doubt, Fleetwood Mac on the car's stereo had a calming effect on Prost.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Williams
"When I look fast, I'm not smooth and I am going slowly, and when I look slow, I am smooth and going fast."

-Alain Prost

That was the quote I was looking for!

[Rene]

Originally posted by Rich
No doubt, Fleetwood Mac on the car's stereo had a calming effect on Prost.

Funny it has the opposite effect on me....kinda makes me....angry!

hehe

[panzani]

Was he looking fast or slow spinning out on the warm-up lap of San Marino GP in 1991?

[Rediscoveryx]

Originally posted by Newtown
Not to undermind what you are trying to say with this thread, and not to say that Prost wasn't as smooth as he was in that video, but that lap has got to be during practice. His car doesn't look like it's being pushed very hard, nor does it look like it's going fast through the swimming pool area and the way he lackadaisically passed that other car showed that it cannot be during a race, noone would give up a position THAT easily. Well, come to think of it, perhaps he was on an outlap during qualifying? If so, the next lap would have been truely interesting to see!

(btw, I'd appreciate not being flamed if you think I'm wrong, thanks)

I remember John Barnard mentioning something about qualifying at Spa 1985. He was standing on the top of Eau Rouge watching the likes of Rosberg throw their cars through the corner. When Prost went through, Barnard thought he had made a mistake at La Source and aborted the lap, he looked so much slower than the other top drivers. That was Prost's pole position lap.

[panzani]

F1 is not about 'leave-the-tyres-as-if-they-were-not-used' or 'leave-fuel-for-another-full-GP'. If you cross the line withouth wearing the tyres and with fuel for ten-laps plus you just underdrived, that's simple!

Alain Prost's 'Smooth Drive' gave him 4 out of 13 [32.5%] Monaco GPs he attended [one of them, :eek: , after Senna passed him, but it was raining, and 'the professor' was like a snail on rain-soaked tarmac], and 4 [30%] poles...

Ayrton Senna 'Nervous Driving' gave him 6 out of 10 [60%] [should have been 7, including the Toleman 'class' he gave to AP], and 5 [50%] poles... And he trashed a victory because team bosses said him: relax, you are one minute ahead AP, cool it down! Yep, he relaxed, crashed, and lost that race... It was not his style to cool down...

I really admire AP's style, he is the professor, I have no doubt. But he was not as fast as one could be driving the same cars he drove, Senna proved it 20 times at least.

[MortenF1]

Never seen the Prost-clip! Thanks!

[Paste]

Alain Prost

[Arska]

Like Newtown said, this lap is absolutely NOT being driven at 100% push. Far from it. I've seen several of such laps shot with high-mounted cameras from '70s and '80s, and all of them were done at a slow pace.

It would be interesting to see his well-known smoothness, preferably from an era before traction control.

[Rene]

Originally posted by panzani
F1 is not about 'leave-the-tyres-as-if-they-were-not-used' or 'leave-fuel-for-another-full-GP'. If you cross the line withouth wearing the tyres and with fuel for ten-laps plus you just underdrived, that's simple!

Hardly is it that simple....when Prost and Senna were doing battle mechincal reliablilty was no where near what it is today...saving your car meant you were there to win....

Originally posted by panzani
Alain Prost's 'Smooth Drive' gave him 4 out of 13 [32.5%] Monaco GPs he attended [one of them, :eek: , after Senna passed him, but it was raining, and 'the professor' was like a snail on rain-soaked tarmac], and 4 [30%] poles...

Ayrton Senna 'Nervous Driving' gave him 6 out of 10 [60%] [should have been 7, including the Toleman 'class' he gave to AP], and 5 [50%] poles... And he trashed a victory because team bosses said him: relax, you are one minute ahead AP, cool it down! Yep, he relaxed, crashed, and lost that race... It was not his style to cool down...

A couple of other stats you should also not forget...

Prost 41 career fastest laps
Senna 19 career fastest laps

Ratios:	 'Item' / GP started	

				 Prost  Senna			

Wins			 25.63%	25.47%		

Podiums			 53.27%	49.69%		

Pole positions   16.58%	40.37%		

Front row		43.22%	54.04%		

Fastest laps	 20.60%	11.80%		

Points			4.01	 3.81

Originally posted by panzani
I really admire AP's style, he is the professor, I have no doubt. But he was not as fast as one could be driving the same cars he drove, Senna proved it 20 times at least.

Over a race distance I completely disagree with you....take a look at one other interesting stat...

Prost 11 wins from starting 5th or lower on the gird...
Senna 1 win from starting 5th or lower on the grid...

I find it hard to argue that Prost did not get the most out of his car, even when he failed to qualify well....while it seems Senna was only able to win, whille driving from the front of the grid...

Senna was able to turn his Poles into wins 44.6% (29/65) of the time
Prost was able to turn his Poles into wins 54.54% (18/33) of the time

So Prost was more effective from the front of the grid, from further back in the grid....but still you think he wasn't driving his car as fast as possible

[Rene]

Originally posted by panzani
Was he looking fast or slow spinning out on the warm-up lap of San Marino GP in 1991?

Was Senna looking fast or slow spinning out on in Monaco in 1988?

[Chris G.]

Originally posted by Rene

Over a race distance I completely disagree with you....take a look at one other interesting stat...

Do you happen to know (off top of your head) how that stat is on a percentage basis?

[Rene]

Originally posted by Chris G.


Do you happen to know (off top of your head) how that stat is on a percentage basis?

In terms of starts or win or what?

[panzani]

Originally posted by Rene
Was Senna looking fast or slow spinning out on in Monaco in 1988?

Slow, very slow indeed! That's my point!

[Arrow]

Originally posted by panzani
F1 is not about 'leave-the-tyres-as-if-they-were-not-used' or 'leave-fuel-for-another-full-GP'. If you cross the line withouth wearing the tyres and with fuel for ten-laps plus you just underdrived, that's simple!

Alain Prost's 'Smooth Drive' gave him 4 out of 13 [32.5%] Monaco GPs he attended [one of them, :eek: , after Senna passed him, but it was raining, and 'the professor' was like a snail on rain-soaked tarmac], and 4 [30%] poles...

Ayrton Senna 'Nervous Driving' gave him 6 out of 10 [60%] [should have been 7, including the Toleman 'class' he gave to AP], and 5 [50%] poles... And he trashed a victory because team bosses said him: relax, you are one minute ahead AP, cool it down! Yep, he relaxed, crashed, and lost that race... It was not his style to cool down...

I really admire AP's style, he is the professor, I have no doubt. But he was not as fast as one could be driving the same cars he drove, Senna proved it 20 times at least.

Prost was fast when it really mattered.On sundays.
Senna was no doubt a better qualifyer but dont forget that prost was 35 in 1988 and had settled into a more measured style by that stage of his career contrary to sennas volatile youth.

He destroyed almost everyone of his team-mates in terms of raw speed including the likes of rosberg and a prime alesi,and pretty much matched senna on race day.

I doubt theres been a faster racer than him.

[panzani]

Originally posted by Rene


Hardly is it that simple....when Prost and Senna were doing battle mechincal reliablilty was no where near what it is today...saving your car meant you were there to win....



A couple of other stats you should also not forget...

Prost 41 career fastest laps
Senna 19 career fastest laps

Ratios:	 'Item' / GP started	

				 Prost  Senna			

Wins			 25.63%	25.47%		

Podiums			 53.27%	49.69%		

Pole positions   16.58%	40.37%		

Front row		43.22%	54.04%		

Fastest laps	 20.60%	11.80%		

Points			4.01	 3.81

Over a race distance I completely disagree with you....take a look at one other interesting stat...

Prost 11 wins from starting 5th or lower on the gird...
Senna 1 win from starting 5th or lower on the grid...

I find it hard to argue that Prost did not get the most out of his car, even when he failed to qualify well....while it seems Senna was only able to win, whille driving from the front of the grid...

Senna was able to turn his Poles into wins 44.6% (29/65) of the time
Prost was able to turn his Poles into wins 54.54% (18/33) of the time

So Prost was more effective from the front of the grid, from further back in the grid....but still you think he wasn't driving his car as fast as possible

I agree with you from first to last word! I was just trying to say 'smoothness' is not a Champ attribute, at least at Monaco it is not! As I've said I respect Alain Prost very much. As a matter of fact I respec the 80ies contenders very much, indeed!

But the laps [videos] of this thread were taken at Monaco, and I gave Monaco only stats. It seems that Monaco approaches to get fastest times should be 'wild' and not 'smooth', that's all.

[panzani]

I've just realised my thoughts can be made clear by these two signatures:

arrow:
"In qualifying,all four tyres blistered at exactly the same moment. Thats what i call a good setup!"- Nelson Piquet

mine:
"The perfect race car crosses the finish line in first place and then falls to pieces." - Ferdinand Porsche

If the tyres had no wear, they were 'underwear', so, the car was underdriven...

[baddog]

I have always found the revisionism of prosts career since his retirement, and especially the bashing of him by senna fans, to be the most peculiar thing.. I mean surely to minimise and insult the driver who was your heros greatest rival, the one who beat him, was seen as the opposite, complimentary but approximate equal of senna, is to minimise and insult senna too?

And smoothness.. its a route to the same end, winning.. theres no noble way to win by looking fast, that makes no sense.

Shaun

[glorius&victorius]

Finally some appreciation for Prost on this BB

[Simioni]

Originally posted by Rene


Over a race distance I completely disagree with you....take a look at one other interesting stat...

Prost 11 wins from starting 5th or lower on the gird...
Senna 1 win from starting 5th or lower on the grid...

I find it hard to argue that Prost did not get the most out of his car, even when he failed to qualify well....while it seems Senna was only able to win, whille driving from the front of the grid...

Senna was able to turn his Poles into wins 44.6% (29/65) of the time
Prost was able to turn his Poles into wins 54.54% (18/33) of the time

So Prost was more effective from the front of the grid, from further back in the grid....but still you think he wasn't driving his car as fast as possible

Another interpretation for your stats would be that Senna just was a better qualifier than Prost, afterall his lower percetange of poles-to-wins could also mean that he poled more with cars that weren't capable of winning the race, and he wouldn't qualify lower than 5th cars that were. Consider their average grid position while teammates and the aknowledged shortcomings of Senna's lotus on race trim, and it becomes clearer which interpretation is more accurate. You may also take a hint from their wins tally as teammates. Manipulating stats becomes harder when you put them in perspective with the other relevant factors

Not meaning to ruin this thread as a tribute to a great driver, but I think that the balance between conservatism and reliability over pure speed and racing skills was ever as screwed-up as in the 80s, with unreliable machinery and ridiculous fuel limitation rules that forced drivers to cruise for a large portion of the races. There might be many things wrong with today's F1, but at least drivers are no longer forced to race like burocrats. Prost could be as quick as anyone, but the rules didn't force him to go there often enough IMO.

[panzani]

Well, this is my 4rd post in a row, sorry, but I have to say that, as a Senna fan I HAVE TO BE a Prost and Mansell and Piquet fan ALSO! Without such strong contenders he would be just a winner , not a winner against giants. And, I have to say, Prost was great, he won 4 titles, but Mansell was unforgettable even though he won just one! It doesn't matter at all how many WDC he had won, he made the F1 races the most important Sunday events for a decade! Off-topicing a little, the only problem with MS wins is just he had not the same class of contenders Prost & Senna had by their time...

Even though I am a Senna's fan, as I've said before, I am not bashing whoever, I like F1 pretty much to be biased by any driver preferences, I hope, I like the bloody races much more than them!

[servellen]

Originally posted by panzani
Was he looking fast or slow spinning out on the warm-up lap of San Marino GP in 1991?

Low blow man.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by servellen


Low blow man.

But a good one

[Beamer]

Originally posted by panzani
Well, this is my 4rd post in a row, sorry, but I have to say that, as a Senna fan I HAVE TO BE a Prost and Mansell and Piquet fan ALSO! Without such strong contenders he would be just a winner , not a winner against giants. And, I have to say, Prost was great, he won 4 titles, but Mansell was unforgettable even though he won just one! It doesn't matter at all how many WDC he had won, he made the F1 races the most important Sunday events for a decade! Off-topicing a little, the only problem with MS wins is just he had not the same class of contenders Prost & Senna had by their time...

Even though I am a Senna's fan, as I've said before, I am not bashing whoever, I like F1 pretty much to be biased by any driver preferences, I hope, I like the bloody races much more than them!

Now there's a blind spot (one of them at least...) in my knowledge of F1 history... Mansell. I always see people here praising mansell and his driving style, but to be honest... I really have no idea. This was before my time. Anyone know some good Mansell clips? it's time I get to know what made him so special. Thanks already.

[MJP]

Originally posted by panzani
..If the tyres had no wear, they were 'underwear', so, the car was underdriven...

Alain won bunch of races, but I have never heard that anyone would ever accuse him of not driving the car hard enough (if I understand your statement correctly).

[panzani]

Originally posted by Beamer
Now there's a blind spot (one of them at least...) in my knowledge of F1 history... Mansell. I always see people here praising mansell and his driving style, but to be honest... I really have no idea. This was before my time. Anyone know some good Mansell clips? it's time I get to know what made him so special. Thanks already.

At ukf1.net you have some nice shots of Mansell's driving abilities. Go to 1980ies stuff. I'll try to get a url of the senna&mansell last lap at spain 86, a classic IMNSHO!

[servellen]

Mansell was a the man who self admitted he may not have the natural born talentthat a Prost or Senna had, but got where he was through trying trying and trying, he made huge effort to drive fast and sometimes overdrove the car. Typical of a driver who is good but not the absolute best is that he as not particularly fast in a car that was not perfect, and only really shone in cars that were perfectly balanced and had the performance edge to win.

At Williams he really excelled, when williams decided to switch to automitic gear box and had the Renaulty engine, he really put in some amazing drives. He was one of the few drivers i have seen pass people on the outside of a corner. Some memorable moments are also him driving right next to Senna battling for first place, wheel to wheel and 320 km/h, literally with their wheels almost touching .... some really great stuff.

I however dont really believe you can get a good sense of what a driver was like by seeing one video over a lap or even a race. When you see drivers over a season or more, you can see them develope and how they cope in different and changing circumstances.

[powertrain]

Originally posted by panzani
F1 is not about 'leave-the-tyres-as-if-they-were-not-used' or 'leave-fuel-for-another-full-GP'. If you cross the line withouth wearing the tyres and with fuel for ten-laps plus you just underdrived, that's simple!

Yeah, 'underdrived' and won the race. What does that tell you? This is exactly what F1 is about, well, back in those days that is. Jim Clark was another driver famous for being easy on brakes and tires and his equipment in general. Go look at his satistics.

[servellen]

I think people forget that refueling has not always been legal.

Without refeuling, pitstops are only for changing tyres.

There were however different compound tyres. Get the idea?

Prost won some races by starting on a harder compound and conserving his tyres, being nice to them, and doing less pitstops than his competators. A great way to win a race! That is something that is not possible anymore. These days hte performance of the cars are more equal at all times of the race mainly because of refueling; but F1 has not always been as it is now.

Qualifying used to be on special Qualifying tires, remember that! And thay used to have turbo's; Berger said in a Turbo you had to know exactly how to time the throttle since the turbo took a sec to kick in.... that is why it is so difficult to compare past and present F1 drivers, and why MS says he connot be compared to Fangio, it is sooooo different now.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Beamer


Now there's a blind spot (one of them at least...) in my knowledge of F1 history... Mansell. I always see people here praising mansell and his driving style, but to be honest... I really have no idea. This was before my time. Anyone know some good Mansell clips? it's time I get to know what made him so special. Thanks already.

The best quote about Mansell is an exchange published in 1987 by Innes Irland in Road and Track. Innes commented to Patrick Head "man, Mansell really is going fast, to bad he does not use his head more." TO which Head replied, " maybe that is why he is going so fast"


Mansell had the outright speed to compete with Senna and Prost and was better on his day than Piquet. Mansell's problem was there was always this insecurity and unstableness about him. Not that he would crumble when presured. Really, he was often at his best when the chips were down. He just could not help creating drama that usually stopped his WDC effort. Some was his doing some not. He should have been WDC in 1986 instead of Prost but had a dramatic (see there is that word again) tire blow down the very fast straight in the last race. He could have easily won the 1987 WDC but then had a very bad accident with 2 races to go that took him out of the car. In the wet, he was one of the few that could give Senna a run for his money.

Really his best quality was his passing ability. If I have seen 100 passes in F1 since I started watching in 1982 I bet at least 20 of the best 30 or so were Mansell. Another thing was that he was very special when racing in England. With equal equipment, I doubt he was beatable. Even in 1990 when Prost was really getting him week in and week out, at Silverstone, Mansell was walking away from Prost until his engine gave out. After the race Mansell waved to the crowd and in another dramatic moment he anounced his retirement. Later he would back off that and go to Williams which eventually gave him his WDC and led to yet another dramatic moment when he walked away from the best car on the grid to go to the USA.

[Pilla]

Originally posted by panzani


I agree with you from first to last word! I was just trying to say 'smoothness' is not a Champ attribute, at least at Monaco it is not! As I've said I respect Alain Prost very much. As a matter of fact I respec the 80ies contenders very much, indeed!

Even though you respect Prost you dont think that he has a champ attitude? How many championships did he win again?

[panzani]

Originally posted by powertrain
Jim Clark was another driver famous for being easy on brakes and tires and his equipment in general. Go look at his satistics.

Well, now you touched my deepest heart-feeling-supporting-fan hero! I just love Clarks' races, I used to 'ear' them on radio, there were no TV at that time, at least here in Brazil; Wilson Fittipaldi, Emerson's uncle, was the radio-voice, the posters were so difficult to get, two-weeks delay to get the full race info, and so on...
I agree this is a winning style, perhaps the most gentleman one but, as everything changes, the F1 winner's style also does. I didn't bash Prost's approach, I don't say Senna was better or worst than him, they were even contenders, I just think in the 80ies & 90ies you had to take ALL a F1 car had to give you. If JC were driving by then I guess he would modify his driving style, and I have no doubt he would be a winner! But we're talking about turbo engines, a lot of aero stuff, twice large tyres, 900BHP engines...

I just think Prost was a 'brain' driver and Senna was a 'heart' driver, two of the best ever drivers F1 ever saw! And I bloody like them BOTH very much!

[Cociani]

I always thought Prost was the better driver-racer and Senna was more of a showman. I know to some that seems like a sacriligious statment but that was how I felt at the time. Senna had more ultimate car control and was a more spectacular qualifier. This allowed him to be faster in the wet. Prost had a far higher level of intellegence behind the wheel than Senna and raced to win on Sundays. I think towards the end of his career Senna started to race much smarter and sadly his best years of racing were probably cut short.

The death of a racing driver is very sad on a human level but also tends to distort peoples perception of the history of that driver and the time period. Prost seems to get very little credit now for his tremendous skills as does Nikki Lauda. Drivers who use their heads are not allways as easy to get excited about as drivers who always go balls out!

[panzani]

Originally posted by Pilla
Even though you respect Prost you dont think that he has a champ attitude? How many championships did he win again?

Of course he had a Champ attitude, no doubt about it, he won 4 titles! for Gods sake! I do respect him very much, much more than the current WDC. I think he was one of the 10 best drivers F1 ever saw. But I do prefer the heart-driven racers, even though some have just one WDC, or died before we could rate them according....

[MJP]

Originally posted by Cociani
I always thought Prost was the better driver-racer and Senna was more of a showman. I know to some that seems like a sacriligious statment but that was how I felt at the time. Senna had more ultimate car control and was a more spectacular qualifier. This allowed him to be faster in the wet. Prost had a far higher level of intellegence behind the wheel than Senna and raced to win on Sundays. I think towards the end of his career Senna started to race much smarter and sadly his best years of racing were probably cut short.

The death of a racing driver is very sad on a human level but also tends to distort peoples perception of the history of that driver and the time period. Prost seems to get very little credit now for his tremendous skills as does Nikki Lauda. Drivers who use their heads are not allways as easy to get excited about as drivers who always go balls out!

[DamattaSpeed]

Originally posted by Cociani
I always thought Prost was the better driver-racer and Senna was more of a showman. I know to some that seems like a sacriligious statment but that was how I felt at the time. Senna had more ultimate car control and was a more spectacular qualifier. This allowed him to be faster in the wet. Prost had a far higher level of intellegence behind the wheel than Senna and raced to win on Sundays. I think towards the end of his career Senna started to race much smarter and sadly his best years of racing were probably cut short.

The death of a racing driver is very sad on a human level but also tends to distort peoples perception of the history of that driver and the time period. Prost seems to get very little credit now for his tremendous skills as does Nikki Lauda. Drivers who use their heads are not allways as easy to get excited about as drivers who always go balls out!

Good post.

I think one reason the fans get so passionate about the Sennas and JPM types is that their car control appears to be on display, (in some cases, very visibly) at times during the weekend. I recall watching a JPM video of Silverstone '03 where he puts the wheels off into the grass, corrects and then lines up a typical brilliant pass on a competitor. Great viewing as you can see the skill clearly as his quick hands correct the near slide. However, I bet that a similar video of a Prost pass would have been fairly more direct: Set up car. Pass car. No drama, and thus a far less compelling argument for his speed. My guess, though, is that all things being equal Prost would have posted the faster lap of the two as there was no bobble to correct.

[Rene]

Originally posted by panzani


I agree with you from first to last word! I was just trying to say 'smoothness' is not a Champ attribute, at least at Monaco it is not! As I've said I respect Alain Prost very much. As a matter of fact I respec the 80ies contenders very much, indeed!

But the laps [videos] of this thread were taken at Monaco, and I gave Monaco only stats. It seems that Monaco approaches to get fastest times should be 'wild' and not 'smooth', that's all.

While we may diagree about smoothness and being a champ....I would agree that driving like a madman is very effective in Monaco....wish I had that onboard footage of Gilles Villeneuve in Monaco...its truly frighting...and extremely fast!

[Chevy II Nova]

The Senna lap looked.... damn frightening. That car is just completely on the edge. Those streets don't look too smooth either.

[HBoss]

Rene, fastest laps don't mean much. Mansell had tons of them, but how often did he overdrive his equipment and break down or commit mistakes? The fact that Senna didn't have that many fastest laps only proves he was actually more concerned with the preservation of his car than many people give him credit for.

At least that's what I beleive.

[Randy Martin]

Originally posted by DamattaSpeed
Good post.

I think one reason the fans get so passionate about the Sennas and JPM types is that their car control appears to be on display, (in some cases, very visibly) at times during the weekend. I recall watching a JPM video of Silverstone '03 where he puts the wheels off into the grass, corrects and then lines up a typical brilliant pass on a competitor. Great viewing as you can see the skill clearly as his quick hands correct the near slide. However, I bet that a similar video of a Prost pass would have been fairly more direct: Set up car. Pass car. No drama, and thus a far less compelling argument for his speed. My guess, though, is that all things being equal Prost would have posted the faster lap of the two as there was no bobble to correct.

To me, the fact that Prost could make that same pass with no drama just magnifies his skills in my eyes.
Those who can do something so difficult and make it look so simple alway amaze me.

[Schuperman]

Originally posted by panzani
...... Off-topicing a little, the only problem with MS wins is just he had not the same class of contenders Prost & Senna had by their time...

Mmmmm.... as I have always believed, today's sportsmen/ women are better then previous sportmen/ women. Meaning today's are more competitive, faster, complex etc. The same goes to technology.

Anyway, the greatness is measured by how you dominate and destroy your opponents. Equally as time goes by, the competition becomes tougher and stiffer.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by HBoss
Rene, fastest laps don't mean much. Mansell had tons of them, but how often did he overdrive his equipment and break down or commit mistakes? The fact that Senna didn't have that many fastest laps only proves he was actually more concerned with the preservation of his car than many people give him credit for.

At least that's what I beleive.

Subsitute 'Schumacher' for 'Mansell', and your whole argument goes down the toilet.

[Pilla]

Originally posted by panzani

Of course he had a Champ attitude, no doubt about it, he won 4 titles! for Gods sake! I do respect him very much, much more than the current WDC. I think he was one of the 10 best drivers F1 ever saw. But I do prefer the heart-driven racers, even though some have just one WDC, or died before we could rate them according....

Thanks for the clarification

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Bladrian
Subsitute 'Schumacher' for 'Mansell', and your whole argument goes down the toilet.

A driver doesn't break modern F1 cars that easily, it surely has been diffrent in the past.