16 replies to this topic

[Vrba]

I'm intersted in speed trap figures (top speeds) achieved at high speed tracks (Montreal, Hockenheim, Monza) in 1998.
Thank you in advance.

Hrvoje

[panzani]

Actually, the record for F1 until 1998 was the 356.5 km/h (221.5 mph) done by David Coulthard at Hockenheim during the Friday free practices. [In 1999 Coulthard done 361.8 km/h at Monza, breaking his own record]
Anyway, I've found also this quote: "At Hockenheim [1998] Norbert Haug said in a post race interview that they accelerated for 80 meters more (after the TV speed trap) and got close to 360km/h."

I've also found that the highest speed at Monza 1998 was 340.4 km/h (211.514 mph) by Rubens Barrichello in a Stewart-Ford SF-2! [done on Sunday] The track was a little bit wet by then, drying.

I hope this helps.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by panzani
Actually, the record for F1 until 1998 was the 356.5 km/h (221.5 mph) done by David Coulthard at Hockenheim during the Friday free practices. [In 1999 Coulthard done 361.8 km/h at Monza, breaking his own record]
Anyway, I've found also this quote: "At Hockenheim [1998] Norbert Haug said in a post race interview that they accelerated for 80 meters more (after the TV speed trap) and got close to 360km/h."

I've also found that the highest speed at Monza 1998 was 340.4 km/h (211.514 mph) by Rubens Barrichello in a Stewart-Ford SF-2! [done on Sunday] The track was a little bit wet by then, drying.

I hope this helps.

Of course it does. Thanks.

Hrvoje

[gdecarli]

TOP SPEED

CANADA GP 1998
from Autosprint 24/1998 page 36

• Friday - June 5th
  1. Irvine 292.400 km/h
  2. Hakkinen 281.900
  3. Barrichello 291.300
  (..)
  22. Salo 278.600
  
• Saturday - June 6th
  1. Coulthard 300.100 km/h
  2. Hakkinen 298.200
  3. M.Schumacher 296.700
  (...)
  22. Diniz 281.900
  
• Sunday - June 7th
  1. M.Schumacher 288.500 km/h
  2. Coulthard 287.700
  3. Irvine 287.400
  (...)
  20. R.Schumacher 210.700

GERMANY GP 1998
from Autosprint 32-33/1998 page 36

• Friday - July 31st
  1. Coulthard 356.500 km/h
  2. Hakkinen 354.900
  3. Irvine 352.200
  (..)
  22. Tuero 335.600
  
• Saturday - August 1st
  1. Villeneuve 350.300 km/h
  2. Barrichello 349.400
  3. Verstappen 349.100
  (...)
  21. Tuero 335.000
  
• Sunday - August 2nd
  1. Coulthard 354.500 km/h
  2. Wurz 353.200
  3. Irvine 352.300
  (...)
  21. Tuero 334.500

ITALY GP 1998
from Autosprint 38/1998 page 36

• Friday - September 11th
  1. Hakkinen 331.800 km/h
  2. Coulthard 331.200
  3. Irvine 331.100
  4. M.Schumacher 331.000
  (..)
  22. Diniz 316.400
  
• Saturday - September 12th
  1. Hill 336.700 km/h
  2. R.Schumacher 335.400
  3. Coulthard 334.500
  (...)
  7. M.Schumacher 332.400
  8. Irvine 332.300
  (...)
  22. Tuero 322.300
  
• Sunday - September 13th
  1. Barrichello 340.400 km/h
  2. Hakkinen 339.300
  3. Hill 338.800
  (...)
  6. Irvine 337.500
  (...)
  13. M.Schumacher 335.000
  (...)
  22. Nakano 325.100

Just for curiosity, I tried to go back to 1980s. I think that old Paul Ricard was the fastest track (with reference to speed trap, not to average speed), as Mistral straight was very long. I checked 1982 (last wing car) and 1985 (last GP on such a layout) and...

• French GP 1982: Tambay (Ferrari) 346.170 km/h during qualify (Saturday, July 24th)
• French GP 1985: Surer (Brabham-Bmw) 338.400 km/h during qualify (Friday, July 5th)

I think that Tambay's performance was the best ever at that time, but I don't now who and when broke this record.

Ciao,
Guido

[Bladrian]

Top speeds don't appear to have changed much in the last 20 years ..... I wonder where they would be if there were absolutely no aero devices on the cars?

Frightening thought, really.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by gdecarli
TOP SPEED
....
Ciao,
Guido

Great facts, thank you very much!
I remember that top speeds dropped in 1983 due to flat bottoms that required bigger wings to compensate and those wings increased drag. Back to 1985/1986 the speeds were up again due to horspower increase.
Could you please just add Ferrari's figures for Monza?

Thank you in advance,
Hrvoje

[Rob Semmeling]

Originally posted by Bladrian
Top speeds don't appear to have changed much in the last 20 years ..... I wonder where they would be if there were absolutely no aero devices on the cars?

Frightening thought, really.

Here are the topspeeds at Hochenheim for a lot of years, I got them from various sources, but mainly out of a book about the German GP, can't remember the title at the moment.

1999: 355,7 (Irvine, Ferrari)
1998: 348,9 (356?, unconfirmed)
1997: 349,5
1996: 345
1995: 334,5
1994: 335,4
1993: 342,4
1992: 339
1991: 338,4
1990: n/a
1989: 328

1981: 296
1977: 289
1971: app. 300



The figures I got of 1998 and 1999 for Monza and Hochenheim are:

Monza 1998: 352,5
Monza 1999: 355,3 (Hakkinen, McLaren) and 361 (Coulthard, unconfirmed)
Hockenheim 1998: 348,9
Hochenheim 1999: 355,7 (Irvine, Ferrari)

I wrote down the speedtrap figures for all tracks in 1998 and 1999, from the info on tv during races and practice.

I remember hearing that Schumacher was measured at 367 km/h this year at Monza. Montoya's comment on the Ferrari's high topspeed: "That car is ****ing illegal!"

[Geza Sury]

Hrovje, I have some detailed speed trap figures from the above mentioned races in Adobe Acrobat (*.pdf) format, which I have downloaded form Racefax a while ago. (Although they are given in mph) If you're interested just drop me a PM with your E-mail address and I'll send them to you straightaway.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Vrba
Could you please just add Ferrari's figures for Monza?

I've just added in my original post, so all data are together

Ciao,
Guido

[Vrba]

Originally posted by gdecarli
I've just added in my original post, so all data are together

Ciao,
Guido

Thank you very much!

Hrvoje

[nmansellfan]

Just to add some notes, i do recall hearing that Teo Fabi was clocked at 217 mph (350 kmh) over the start/finish line at Monza in 1986. If thats true, then he was probably doing over 220 before braking for the chicanes.

I also remember reading in an old Classic and Sportscar magazine that Jochen Rindt's Lotus 72 was geared for 205 mph at Monza in 1970.

[gdecarli]

Quite right about the speed, not about the driver...

ITALY GP 1986
from Autosprint 37/1986 page 26

• Friday - September 5th
  1. Johansson (Ferrari) 348.162 km/h
  2. Berger (Benetton-Bmw) 343.184
  3. Patrese (Brabham-Bmw) 341.880
  (..)
  26. Caffi (Osella-Alfa Romeo) 299.584

• Saturday - September 6th
  1. Berger (Benetton-Bmw) 351.220 km/h
  2. T.Fabi (Benetton-Bmw) 348.854 (pole position)
  3. Warwick (Brabham-Bmw) 347.155
  (..)
  27. Caffi (Osella-Alfa Romeo) 304.225

• Sunday - September 7th
  1. Berger (Benetton-Bmw) 349.628 km/h
  2. Johansson (Ferrari) 328.068
  3. Tambay (Lola Force-Ford) 327.471
  (..)
  27. Caffi (Osella-Alfa Romeo) 295.809

For sure Berger set new record, the previous one was set by Tambay at Paul Ricard 1982, as I have already wrote. I means that meanwhile nobody set any higher speed. And I wonder when this record was broken: 1986 was the last year with "free" turbo engines, so I think they took some year to come back tosuch a speed.
I wonder about sunday speed: I confirm Berger was 21 km/h faster than Johansson and all others. I wonder his speed is correct or if there is a print mistake.
Third, there were some mobile chicanes: Caffi was always the slowest, but on Saturday and Sunday Ghinzani (Osella), Capelli (AGS), Palmer (Zakspeed) were only a little faster. What a great difference with Berger top speed!
Fabi was in pole with 1'24"078, Rothengatter was 26. (1'30"904) and Caffi 27. (1'36"900)!
Of course it was not Caffi's fault: he and Ghinzani had to use one car to qualify as he broke his engine, they hd no T-car and so on...

Ciao,
Guido

[Dave Wright]

It's a shame Autosprint doesn't go back to 1965 - I'm trying to find out the speeds they reached at Spa and Monza.

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by Dave Wright
It's a shame Autosprint doesn't go back to 1965 - I'm trying to find out the speeds they reached at Spa and Monza.

In a GPL context, Brabham's car at Zandvoort in 1967 had a sticker on the dash "Speed not to exceed 170mph" - mine seems to manage 177mph

[gdecarli]

Maybe it's a little off-topic, but while looking for something else, I found an interesting table that shows max speed reached by each F.1 team in 1986 in the first 12 GP:

• Brabham BT55 BMW: 344.828 km/h (Österreichring)
• McLaren MP4/2C TAG Porsche: 342.531 km/h (Österreichring)
• Ferrari F.1/86: 342.205 km/h (Paul Ricard)
• Benetton B186 BMW: 341.772 km/h (Österreichring)
• Ligier JS27 Renault: 337.114 km/h (Hockenheim)
• Williams FW011 Honda: 332.555 km/h (Hockenheim)
• Arrows A8 BMW: 330.018 km/h (Hockenheim)
• Lotus 98T Renault: 329.973 km/h (Österreichring)
• Force Thl2 Ford: 329.068 km/h (Österreichring)
• Zakspeed 861: 327.520 km/h (Hockenheim)
• Tyrrell 015 Renault: 320.095 km/h (Österreichring)
• Minardi M186 Motori Moderni: 314.228 km/h (Österreichring)
• Osella FA1 Alfa Romeo: 298.673 km/h (Österreichring)

All tops speeds were recorded during practice or qualifying and I don't know what driver scored such speed.
First 12 GPs were raced at Jacarepaguá, Jerez de la Frontera, Imola, Montecarlo, Spa Francorchamps, Île Notre-Dame (Montreal), Detroit, Paul Ricard, Brands Hatch, Hockenheim, Hungaroring and Österreichring.

After Monza, this is the updated list:

• Benetton B186 BMW: 351.220 km/h (Berger, Monza)
• Ferrari F.1/86: 348.162 km/h (Johansson, Monza)
• Brabham BT55 BMW: 347.155 km/h (Warwick, Monza)
• McLaren MP4/2C TAG Porsche: 342.531 km/h (Österreichring) [Monza: Prost 340.157]
• Arrows A8 BMW: 341.124 km/h (Boutsen, Monza)
• Williams FW011 Honda: 341.017 km/h (Mansell, Monza)
• Ligier JS27 Renault: 337.114 km/h (Hockenheim) [Monza: Arnoux 335.196]
• Minardi M186 Motori Moderni: 333.642 km/h (Nannini, Monza)
• Lotus 98T Renault: 333.025 km/h (Senna, Monza)
• Force Thl2 Ford: 329.068 km/h (Österreichring) [Monza: Tambay 328.667]
• Zakspeed 861: 328.867 km/h (Palmer, Monza)
• Tyrrell 015 Renault: 321.046 km/h (Brundle, Monza)
• AGS JH21C Motori Moderni: 310.078 km/h (Capelli, Monza)
• Osella FA1 Alfa Romeo: 309.811 km/h (Ghinzani, Monza)

It's interesting to see a Minardi faster than Senna's Lotus...

Ciao,
Guido
(from Autosprint 36/1986 page 43 and 37/1986 page 26)

[Megatron]

That would be during the first year of grooved tires and narrower cars. I remember during the Hockinhiem race one of the announcers from Speedvision as it was called at the time said a few teams had experienced some slight porposing or instability at high speed and put it down to the grooves. Not sure if that was true or not but your post brought back that memory.

[Megatron]

Good job from the Porsche (or a very low downforce McLaren) considering it's strength was never really its sure BHP ala BMW and to a certain extent some of the later Renaults.

Originally posted by gdecarli
Maybe it's a little off-topic, but while looking for something else, I found an interesting table that shows max speed reached by each F.1 team in 1986 in the first 12 GP:

• Brabham BT55 BMW: 344.828 km/h (Österreichring)
• McLaren MP4/2C TAG Porsche: 342.531 km/h (Österreichring)
• Ferrari F.1/86: 342.205 km/h (Paul Ricard)
• Benetton B186 BMW: 341.772 km/h (Österreichring)
• Ligier JS27 Renault: 337.114 km/h (Hockenheim)
• Williams FW011 Honda: 332.555 km/h (Hockenheim)
• Arrows A8 BMW: 330.018 km/h (Hockenheim)
• Lotus 98T Renault: 329.973 km/h (Österreichring)
• Force Thl2 Ford: 329.068 km/h (Österreichring)
• Zakspeed 861: 327.520 km/h (Hockenheim)
• Tyrrell 015 Renault: 320.095 km/h (Österreichring)
• Minardi M186 Motori Moderni: 314.228 km/h (Österreichring)
• Osella FA1 Alfa Romeo: 298.673 km/h (Österreichring)

All tops speeds were recorded during practice or qualifying and I don't know what driver scored such speed.
First 12 GPs were raced at Jacarepaguá, Jerez de la Frontera, Imola, Montecarlo, Spa Francorchamps, Île Notre-Dame (Montreal), Detroit, Paul Ricard, Brands Hatch, Hockenheim, Hungaroring and Österreichring.

After Monza, this is the updated list:

• Benetton B186 BMW: 351.220 km/h (Berger, Monza)
• Ferrari F.1/86: 348.162 km/h (Johansson, Monza)
• Brabham BT55 BMW: 347.155 km/h (Warwick, Monza)
• McLaren MP4/2C TAG Porsche: 342.531 km/h (Österreichring) [Monza: Prost 340.157]
• Arrows A8 BMW: 341.124 km/h (Boutsen, Monza)
• Williams FW011 Honda: 341.017 km/h (Mansell, Monza)
• Ligier JS27 Renault: 337.114 km/h (Hockenheim) [Monza: Arnoux 335.196]
• Minardi M186 Motori Moderni: 333.642 km/h (Nannini, Monza)
• Lotus 98T Renault: 333.025 km/h (Senna, Monza)
• Force Thl2 Ford: 329.068 km/h (Österreichring) [Monza: Tambay 328.667]
• Zakspeed 861: 328.867 km/h (Palmer, Monza)
• Tyrrell 015 Renault: 321.046 km/h (Brundle, Monza)
• AGS JH21C Motori Moderni: 310.078 km/h (Capelli, Monza)
• Osella FA1 Alfa Romeo: 309.811 km/h (Ghinzani, Monza)

It's interesting to see a Minardi faster than Senna's Lotus...

Ciao,
Guido
(from Autosprint 36/1986 page 43 and 37/1986 page 26)