41 replies to this topic

[se7en_24]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...portcenta.shtml

"Take your time to browse through the 100 sporting moments listed here and decide on your top 10."

One of the entries is as follows:
Ayrton Senna’s death in Formula 1 in 1994
At 2.17pm on 1 May, Brazilian Formula One driver Ayrton Senna entered the Tamburello Curve at Imola at 190mph. His Williams car veered off the track just after the apex, slammed into an unprotected concrete wall and was instantly wrecked. Spectators, race officials, and millions of TV viewers watched as Senna sat immobile in the twisted remains of his car. Minutes passed, the rescue teams arrived, but still no movement from the cockpit. Then the blood started seeping like oil onto the track, and F1 would never be the same.

Am I missing something here? Who in the world would vote for that as a "Top 10 sporting moment". It's in very poor taste if you ask me.

[Bart]

Well I guess it's like the assassination of JFK is one of the signature moments of the 20th Century. Much better though for me was after the 1994 World Cup final (a tedious affair) when the Brazilian team, having just won, ran around the pitch with a huge banner commemorating Senna. I don't mind saying that I was welling up.

[bira]

When Atlas F1 did the 50-years-of-F1 special issue, at the end of 1999 (see http://www.atlasf1.c...ec15/index.html ), we elected 10 races - two of each decade. The best races, or most memorable races, or most important races - I don't quite know how to define it. But the 1994 San Marino GP was one of the two races elected in the 1990s.

724, as uneasy as it might make you feel, I don't know how one could ignore one of the most defining moments in modern Formula One history. This isn't a list of the happiest moments - nor is it a list of the greatest achievements. If anything, it just portrays the montage of collective memories we all have, through time, of what defines "sport". And the death of Ayrton Senna cannot, under any logic, not be included in that.

[se7en_24]

Fair enough, I think they could have maybe worded it slightly better though. I think it was the "top 10 moments" bit that threw me slightly.

[John B]

like "the blood started seeping on the track like oil"


Fox has been doing something similar in recent months. After sports telecasts, they show a quick "the greatest moments in sports are on Fox" promo which features something like the end of a Super Bowl. One of these clips is titled "February 18, 2001" and features Michael Waltrip winning the Daytona 500 as his brother cheers him home from the TV booth. Of course most know that as this is happening Dale Earnhardt is killed in the crash in turn 3....

[Robbie]

Originally posted by bira
When Atlas F1 did the 50-years-of-F1 special issue, at the end of 1999 (see http://www.atlasf1.c...ec15/index.html ), we elected 10 races - two of each decade. The best races, or most memorable races, or most important races - I don't quite know how to define it. But the 1994 San Marino GP was one of the two races elected in the 1990s.

724, as uneasy as it might make you feel, I don't know how one could ignore one of the most defining moments in modern Formula One history. This isn't a list of the happiest moments - nor is it a list of the greatest achievements. If anything, it just portrays the montage of collective memories we all have, through time, of what defines "sport". And the death of Ayrton Senna cannot, under any logic, not be included in that.

You people at AtlasF1 are so sophisticated.

The BBC with a crassness that defines it these days seeks to establish certain 'facts' by polling its generally stupid viewership.

I don't know what polls establish exactly. They don't win arguments. They are designed -- these 'the Nation's 100 Favourite XYZs’ type polls -- to appeal to the incredibly short attention spans of the average person (40 second units of goals, people falling off horses, thrilling javelin throws, fatal car accidents).

[madmac]

You can't put someones death in 'top' sporting moments, that implies something good was going on. Most important perhaps but never top to the BBC on this.

[SpamJet]

Big up to Emil Zatopek

Emil Zatopek wins triple gold
The hero of 1952's Helsinki Olympics, Zatopek is the only runner to win the 5,000m, the 10,000m and the marathon at the same Games. What makes this feat more remarkable is that he entered the marathon even though he had never run one before - and he still wore down all of the other runners and won by 2½ minutes. Midway through, he is believed to have asked the favourite, Jim Peters: "Don't you think we ought to be going faster?"


Superstar.

[glorius&victorius]

Originally posted by glorius&victorius
"100 sporting moments"

Just means moments in sport. And Senna's dead was a moment in sport.

It showed to the world that Formula One was (is) still a sport where people die. We may not like to see our sport in this way, but's this is the hard truth.

Whether to include this sporting moment in your top ten is another matter. If you like a happy top ten you choose happy moments. If you like a drama top ten then choose Senna at Imola.

Alex Zanardi being hit by Tagliani at the German Champ Car race was also a sporting moment. It happenend during a sporting event. The rest what we saw on tv and what we read afterwards was tearing up my heart. But it demonstrated again what horror can occur during motorsport.

[Jordan191]

I kinda agree with Imola to be honest. Auto racing hasn't been the same since that day.

I just watched Imola 1994 recently for the 1st time in years. That ' blood seeping onto the track like oil ' comment is a bit overdramatic , no?

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Jordan191
I just watched Imola 1994 recently for the 1st time in years. That ' blood seeping onto the track like oil ' comment is a bit overdramatic , no?

Well not really, I was unfortunate enough to be watching the Eurosport coverage at the time and that is exactly what happened. There was an overhead image of Senna lying on the ground in a big pool of blood. I can say I am really glad never seen that footage again on any of the replays of the race.

[Jordan191]

really? ... erm ... in that case .. that would have tipped me over .. I'd have chucked my cookies

[ViMaMo]

well its not only about senna, here are other deaths in sports which have been included.
1.Hillsborough Stadium tragedy of 1989
2.Munich Air Disaster of 1958
3.Munich Olympic massacre of 1972
4.Tommy Simpson’s death in 1967 Tour de France

Its wrongly worded.... as some of you said.

[Jordan191]

Originally posted by vivian
well its not only about senna, here are other deaths in sports which have been included.
1.Hillsborough Stadium tragedy of 1989
2.Munich Air Disaster of 1958
3.Munich Olympic massacre of 1972
4.Tommy Simpson’s death in 1967 Tour de France

Its wrongly worded.... as some of you said.

See I don't agree with the Olympic massacre as a sporting story in itself. That's a repugnant act of terror by cowards , not a sporting imoment . When an every is directly involving the sport ( in the case of Senna that's true ) then it becomes a sporting moment.

[pRy]

Originally posted by Jordan191
really? ... erm ... in that case .. that would have tipped me over .. I'd have chucked my cookies

There was blood but only a patch that had been left on the tarmac below where the medical team had worked on him once extracted from the cockpit. It was an exageration to say it was leaking across the track, thats incorrect. It would have most likely been covered with gravel or dust as soon as he was air lifted away.

He had a serious head injury and a bleeding was unavoidable.

[F1Johnny]

I liked this one.

USSR beat USA in basketball final, 1972
The Americans were clear favourites in this hugely controversial basketball final - they were unbeaten in Olympic competition having won seven golds in an unbeaten 63-match run. With time running out, the USA had a one point advantage and looked the winners. But the referees added three seconds. The ball was handed to the USSR who scored with a long pass and lay-up, snatching victory by 51 points to 50. The vanquished US rejected the result and refused to accept their silver medals.

The Americans' silver medals remain unclaimed in a Munich vault to this day.


Some really upset athletes there.

[Oho]

Originally posted by pRy


He had a serious head injury and a bleeding was unavoidable.

Ave !!

Nah he was dead, probably within seconds from impact, officially he could no die on track as it would have made carrying out the race very difficult to justify.

- Oho -

[Oho]

Originally posted by F1Johnny
I liked this one.

USSR beat USA in basketball final, 1972
The Americans were clear favourites in this hugely controversial basketball final - they were unbeaten in Olympic competition having won seven golds in an unbeaten 63-match run. With time running out, the USA had a one point advantage and looked the winners. But the referees added three seconds. The ball was handed to the USSR who scored with a long pass and lay-up, snatching victory by 51 points to 50. The vanquished US rejected the result and refused to accept their silver medals.

The Americans' silver medals remain unclaimed in a Munich vault to this day.


Some really upset athletes there.

Ave !!

I have seen the end of the game, it was fixed as much as anything could ever be fixed. Even figure skating has not sunk as low as basketball sank that day. Made me sick. Oh by the way the clock was moved at leat twice with the head of international basketball union (or something like that) inteviening without any jurisdiction.

- Oho -

[random]

Originally posted by F1Johnny
I liked this one.

USSR beat USA in basketball final, 1972
The Americans were clear favourites in this hugely controversial basketball final - they were unbeaten in Olympic competition having won seven golds in an unbeaten 63-match run. With time running out, the USA had a one point advantage and looked the winners. But the referees added three seconds. The ball was handed to the USSR who scored with a long pass and lay-up, snatching victory by 51 points to 50. The vanquished US rejected the result and refused to accept their silver medals.

The Americans' silver medals remain unclaimed in a Munich vault to this day.


Some really upset athletes there.

The American's were entirely robbed by crooked officials. Watch the video sometime, it's a travesty. The American coach even had his wallet lifted in the scrum after the game.

[paulogman]

Jesse Owens' four Olympic golds in 1936
The Nazis had carefully choreographed the 1936 Berlin Olympics to support their ideology – but what they hadn't bargained for was a black American called James Cleveland Owens, known as Jesse. Owens won four gold medals, setting three new Olympic records in the process. In the long jump he beat the German Luz Long and after the medal presentation the pair embraced and paraded around the stadium arm-in-arm. This was not what Hitler had pictured.

if this does not end as one of the most signifigant events from that poll, i will wonder what sport means to brits. one person right in the face of tyranny.

[holiday]

Originally posted by random
The American's were entirely robbed by crooked officials. Watch the video sometime, it's a travesty. The American coach even had his wallet lifted in the scrum after the game.

who knows for sure? isnt history written by the winners.....

[masterhit]

Originally posted by bira
When Atlas F1 did the 50-years-of-F1 special issue, at the end of 1999 (see http://www.atlasf1.c...ec15/index.html ), we elected 10 races - two of each decade. The best races, or most memorable races, or most important races - I don't quite know how to define it. But the 1994 San Marino GP was one of the two races elected in the 1990s.

724, as uneasy as it might make you feel, I don't know how one could ignore one of the most defining moments in modern Formula One history. This isn't a list of the happiest moments - nor is it a list of the greatest achievements. If anything, it just portrays the montage of collective memories we all have, through time, of what defines "sport". And the death of Ayrton Senna cannot, under any logic, not be included in that.

Well put Bira.

Ignoring the pedantics of which sports are better etc, such a thing as a death is something which is an unforgettable and powerful moment, permanently etched in the memory.

[Oho]

Originally posted by paulogman


if this does not end as one of the most signifigant events from that poll, i will wonder what sport means to brits. one person right in the face of tyranny.

Ave !!!

As far I recall Jesse Owense'es success was not viewed too favorably on either side of the pond.....

- Oho -

[LB]

Its being advertised on the radio as the top 100 significant sporting moments. Sennas death changed a whole sport I would say thats fairly significant. Which sporting moments have touched you is the banner. You can be touched in good ways and bad ways. Sport can excite or drive you to despair.

look at the A page.

Aldaniti - the horse was given up for dead the jockey beat cancer
Archie Gemmell - probably the best known goal Scotland ever scored umm we would all vote for it so thats why thats there.
Arther Ashe beat the race divide
Senna well we know about

B's
Barry McGuigam united a divided country that night
Ben Johnston remains the best known drugs incident
etc etc etc

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by paulogman


if this does not end as one of the most signifigant events from that poll, i will wonder what sport means to brits. one person right in the face of tyranny.

Surely it should be your *own* significant moments? I'm sure there are countless amount of heroic acts in sport I am not aware of, therefore to me they aren't significant. What does sport mean to me? I love it.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by LB
Its being advertised on the radio as the top 100 significant sporting moments.

I still think they should make that clearer on the webpage, but in that case Imola 1994 was definitely one of the most (if not *the* most) significant sporting moments of my life as a sports viewer.

[dosco]

Originally posted by pRy


There was blood but only a patch that had been left on the tarmac below where the medical team had worked on him once extracted from the cockpit. It was an exageration to say it was leaking across the track, thats incorrect. It would have most likely been covered with gravel or dust as soon as he was air lifted away.

He had a serious head injury and a bleeding was unavoidable.

Interesting. I watched the race and accident in 94....I don't recall having seen any blood. I do recall watching Senna's head kind of "loll" about and roll to the left and right.

I was in the USAF at the time, and about a month later I went on a temporary duty assignment to Italy. While there, I picked up a bunch of Senna stuff, one of which was a book entitled "Senna Vero." It has a green cover, and is written entirely in Italian. The second half of the book is a "portfolio" of pictures chronicling Senna's career.....there are pictures of the crash and wreckage. The pix look like they were taken by a photographer immediately on the other side of the fence from where the Williams car came to rest. There are also pix of the medical team working on him (presumably taken by the same photographer). There's blood all over the medics, Senna, the gurney Senna is on, and a pretty good patch of blood on the track....also what looks to be a broken suspension piece which presumably is the piece of wreckage that killed him.

When I first read the book I was pretty shocked at the amount of blood...mostly because there wasn't any blood seen on the TV coverage that I watched. Of course, the track marshals held up a "screen" that blocked the TV helicopters from viewing the spectacle below. After having seen the pictures, I think that was probably a good thing. At the time, I recall wanting to see everything that was going on, and being pretty pissed off that the marshals were blocking the view.

I do remember being in a black mood for several weeks after his death.

[Slyder]

Originally posted by Oho


Ave !!

I have seen the end of the game, it was fixed as much as anything could ever be fixed. Even figure skating has not sunk as low as basketball sank that day. Made me sick. Oh by the way the clock was moved at leat twice with the head of international basketball union (or something like that) inteviening without any jurisdiction.

- Oho -

I hate to go off-topic but:

BS, the Soviets were never given their timeout when they were supposed to, they rang the bell twice to ask for a timeout, and everytime the dumbass judgers and referees mistook it as the end of the game. Since they never gave the Soviets their time-out that they requested and they requested it with three seconds remaining, yet the time just kept running and nothing happened. That's the reason why they gave out the three seconds. There was no fix, the Soviets won deservedly. My dad saw that game live too and he said that it was never a fix. I also managed to see the rerun along with the special documentary on the incident "3 seconds from victory", there was never a fix. Just an awful lot of sissy hurt feelings.

The americans that day were bad loosers, nothing more.

[WACKO]

Originally posted by bira
When Atlas F1 did the 50-years-of-F1 special issue, at the end of 1999 (see http://www.atlasf1.c...ec15/index.html ), we elected 10 races - two of each decade. The best races, or most memorable races, or most important races - I don't quite know how to define it. But the 1994 San Marino GP was one of the two races elected in the 1990s.

724, as uneasy as it might make you feel, I don't know how one could ignore one of the most defining moments in modern Formula One history. This isn't a list of the happiest moments - nor is it a list of the greatest achievements. If anything, it just portrays the montage of collective memories we all have, through time, of what defines "sport". And the death of Ayrton Senna cannot, under any logic, not be included in that.

People tend to live on after events like Imola, but you can't deny that it has been one of the most interfering events in history of Formula One. Especially the aftermath, resulting in a complete face lift in terms of safety. I can imagine people voting for it as a memorable event, however of course not in the positive way that was intended.

[man from martinlaakso]

I watched the 1972 olympics' basketball final on TV, and I was very upset about the result. In the game the Russians were slightly dominant but lost their concepts totally during the last minutes of the game and Americans took 1 point lead with free throws. Just before that the Russian coach wanted a time-out, which he should have got, but the referees did not notice it and the time wnt out. Now the error was found immediately after the game was over for the first time, and the last seconds were played again so, that the Russians got their time-out first. This enabled them to regroup so, that practically all their players were near the enemy basket, when the game was restarted. When the Russians made an attemp of a long pass, it failed and the Americans got the ball. At that time the buzzer ended the game. However, there was still three seconds loft in the official clock, the timing of the buzzer was wrong. So there was still time to play, although the American players could not understand, why. The referees gave the ball back to Russians, who tried the long pass again and succeded. So the Russains "won" by one point.

I can understand the first replay, because the referees had made an obvious mistake, and if they would not have corrected it in time, the Russians would have made a protest, which probably would have been accepted and there would have been a rematch.

The second replay was partly understandible, because there was still time on the clock. But on the other hand, the ball was safely in Americans' hands and thet would have simply killed the clock. So the easiest way would have been to accept Americans' win. But if the three seconds were to be played again, it was a GREAT UNJUSTICE to give the ball again to the Russians. It should have been either Americans' ball or a throw-up. But the referees decided otherwise and the American team did not make a formal protest in the two hours's time like it should have done and so the result stayed. However, there might be a possibility, that IOC would change the result in the future. Remember, that Thorpe got his gold-medals 71 years after the Stockholm games and Ingemar Nilsson his silver-medal over 30 years after the Helsinki games. So there is still some hope.

[Nikos Spagnol]

Originally posted by se7en_24
Well not really, I was unfortunate enough to be watching the Eurosport coverage at the time and that is exactly what happened. There was an overhead image of Senna lying on the ground in a big pool of blood. I can say I am really glad never seen that footage again on any of the replays of the race.

I don't think it's relevant if there was blood or not. I guess BBC is overly gruesome stating "then blood started seeping like oil onto the track". Whenever it happened or not, it's not necessary to talk about it.

Plain sensacionalism.

[Nikos Spagnol]

Originally posted by Slyder


The americans that day were bad loosers, nothing more.

Right. I guess if USA had loss their gold medal to any given "Western" country that day, there would be no much fussing about it.

Politics should not interfere with sport.

[Zmeej]

Politics should not interfere with sport.

Keep dreamin'...

[speedmaster]

Originally posted by Bart
Well I guess it's like the assassination of JFK is one of the signature moments of the 20th Century. Much better though for me was after the 1994 World Cup final (a tedious affair) when the Brazilian team, having just won, ran around the pitch with a huge banner commemorating Senna. I don't mind saying that I was welling up.

I don't think they are voting the accident as one of the sport's moment but the significance of it for the sport as a whole. And yes, if this is what they meant, it was one of the top 3 ones, imho the most important one for sure.

As for the emotional moments that happen back there the most goose bump one for me was in a soccer match in Maracanã stadium, Rio, 75k people all of them chanting and clapping, arms high,

olê, olê, olê, olá, Senna, Senna.... this went for about 5 minutes with all in the stadium eyewets...

There are more of them but this was incredible, what Senna meant to all of us Brazilian can't be understood outside the Brazilian culture.

Senna FOREVER

[Jordan191]

Originally posted by speedmaster


I don't think they are voting the accident as one of the sport's moment but the significance of it for the sport as a whole. And yes, if this is what they meant, it was one of the top 3 ones, imho the most important one for sure.

As for the emotional moments that happen back there the most goose bump one for me was in a soccer match in Maracanã stadium, Rio, 75k people all of them chanting and clapping, arms high,

olê, olê, olê, olá, Senna, Senna.... this went for about 5 minutes with all in the stadium eyewets...

There are more of them but this was incredible, what Senna meant to all of us Brazilian can't be understood outside the Brazilian culture.

Senna FOREVER

I find it ironic that you wear your heart on your sleeve like that over Senna's meaning to Brazil, yet show flagrant disrespect for something that has an almost religious significance in Italy ( your avatar ).

[Zmeej]

Many in Italy shared Speedmaster's sentiment in the aftermath of the farce in Austria 2002. IIRC, that's when he put that avatar up...

It's over a year now, but hey, to each his own.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Zmeej
Many in Italy probably shared Scudetto's sentiment after Austria 2002.
(IIRC, that's when he put that avatar up...)

The customer is allways right, but the customer rarely knows what they're talking about

[Jordan191]

Originally posted by Zmeej
Many in Italy shared Speedmaster's sentiment in the aftermath of the farce in Austria 2002. IIRC, that's when he put that avatar up...

It's over a year now, but hey, to each his own.

oh and if I put up some anti-Senna avatar up ( for Suzuka 1990 ) what do you think would happen?

[Zmeej]

You'd probably get into a passionate discussion with somebody...;)

[speedmaster]

Originally posted by Jordan191


I find it ironic that you wear your heart on your sleeve like that over Senna's meaning to Brazil, yet show flagrant disrespect for something that has an almost religious significance in Italy ( your avatar ).

Couple of things here... I do not disrespect Ferrari but the ones managing the team back in Austria 2002. Over the team I like the sport and we must preserve it... So Ferrari is ok, the way they are doing it is not although I recognize it is a shame thing used by all teams.

Regarding putting the anti Senna avatar it is your right to do it. Probably you will get a lot of flame, far more than I'm getting with the Ferrari one (by the way you are the first one to complain about it) and this maybe will show you that mine is more reality than Senna's one....

And, of course, we can do the same for Prost's issue in the year before and, just for the sake of it, put some Balestre on it...

So far Ferrari didn't give me reason to step back from my Avatar....

Cheers

[Jordan191]

Originally posted by speedmaster


Couple of things here... I do not disrespect Ferrari but the ones managing the team back in Austria 2002. Over the team I like the sport and we must preserve it... So Ferrari is ok, the way they are doing it is not although I recognize it is a shame thing used by all teams.

Regarding putting the anti Senna avatar it is your right to do it. Probably you will get a lot of flame, far more than I'm getting with the Ferrari one (by the way you are the first one to complain about it) and this maybe will show you that mine is more reality than Senna's one....

And, of course, we can do the same for Prost's issue in the year before and, just for the sake of it, put some Balestre on it...

So far Ferrari didn't give me reason to step back from my Avatar....

Cheers

clarify here. I am not complaining about the avatar itself. I am commenting about the double standard here. You wear your heart on your sleeve towards an obvious Brazillian icon, and yet you show flagrant disrespect an Italian icon.

You're right .. to each his own ..

oh .. and just cause I'm the first one , dosent' make me any less right.

[Zmeej]

Speedmaster