30 replies to this topic

[VDP]

How many Delage were built for the 1500 Formula, the french wonder designed by Lory and how many survive ?

Robert

[David McKinney]

There is no simple answer
The factory built and raced four cars, one of which crashed in later private ownership.
Two further cars were built up in England in the late ‘30s using spare parts (including those from the crashed ex-works car) and new chassis frames.
Both of these survive, one having been fitted with an ERA engine in 1950, and three of the original works cars are also still in existence.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by David McKinney
There is no simple answer.

An understatement and a half!

In both his "Case History" articles and book, Norman Smith put the number at five. However, in the May 1964 issue of Motor Sport, Alan Burnard put the number at six: four originally produced during 1926/1927 and the two new frames that Prince Chula ordered built. Of these, five are apparently still about only the one being driven by Earl Howe at Monza in 1932 being written-off, although it was salvaged for spares.

What is interesting is that Chula got the original desginer, Lory, to produce two new frames with independent front suspension.

[cabianca]

Car 1 Raoul de Rovin, now Collier

Car 2 Campbell Alan Burnard UK

Car 3 Lord Howe, destroyed at Monza, used for parts

Car 4 Senechal,Seaman, etc. France?

Car 5 Chula, Parnell Rob Walker, etc. Anthony Mayman estate

Car 6 Chula Bamford J.C. Miloe Monaco. Has spare engine

[David McKinney]

Your No.4 was also raced by Earl Howe; more than No.5 passed through Parnell's hands
No.5 has been with Bruce Spollon in the UK for about ten years, and turns out at most VSCC race meetings
I can probably fill in other gaps in the present owner list when I get back to my data at home tonight

[VDP]

Thanks a lot there was a complete history of them written in l'automobile french magazine in 1970 but it s difficult to find it . Gicleux ?? Marcor ??

Robert

[GIGLEUX]

Car N.1 #21642/1 team car and certainly the proto. De Rovin-circa 1936 Bancroft-Lee-Cunningham-Collier. The only car nearly "d'origine".
Car N.2 #18489 team car for Divo. Campbell (1928)-Scott (1928) -Davis (1932)-Chula (1937)-Parnell-Woodall-Rowley-Cannon-Burnard.
Car N.3 #21641 team car for Benoist. Campbell (1928)-Howe (1931) destroyed Monza 1932
Car N.4 #18488 team car. Chiron (Indy 1929)-Sénéchal (1930)-Howe (end of 1931)-Seaman (end of 1935)-Chula (1937)-Parnell (1945)-Hampshire-Walker (1950)-Pozzoli.
Car N.5 #WMG-101.Chula made with IF designed by Lory. Raced by "Bira"-Parnell-Woodall-Rowley-Beebee-Woolley-Bradley-Bamford-Classic-Young-Berg-Milloë
Car N.6 #WMG-102?. Idem N.5. Chula-Parnell-Habershon-Walker- Burnard-Goodhew-Kerr-Poter-Lindsay-Mayman.

[Marcor]

Robert, L'Automobile is available (From 1963...) at the big Brussels library (Bibliothèque Albert I, Mont des Arts).

It's very easy to read it there, but more difficult to photocopy (sometimes you can, sometimes not). Classification mark for l'Automobile is 26465R. The library is open from Monday to Friday (9 AM to 7.50 PM) and Saturday (9 AM to 4.50 PM).

There's also a great article about the car in Classic Car Profile #18 by Cyril Posthumus.

[VDP]

Merci beaucoup

Robert

[robert dick]

In addition the 1.5-litre is described in Pomeroy's "Grand Prix Car".

= = = =

Were all the original 1926 "non-offset" 1.5-litres converted to 1927 models?

The 2-litre V-12 and the 1.5-litre straight-8 Delages were extremely expensive to manufacture; probably their construction was ten times more expensive than a corresponding Bugatti. Are there any reports/invoices concerning the price asked by the Delage factory when these cars were sold to private parties?

[Leif Snellman]

So If there was 6 cars and 5 of them still exists, from where did the 5th engine suddenly appear when needed by Chula, 11 years after the first 4 cars were built?

Or let me re-formulate the question. Does one of the existing chassis still have an ERA engine?

[David McKinney]

Can't answer your first question off the cuff, Leif
But I can say that none of the four original cars ever had an ERA engine.
The ERA-Delage, as it is always known, was based on one of the 1937 Chula cars

[Mark Ballard]

Originally posted by David McKinney
But I can say that none of the four original cars ever had an ERA engine.

Except I am fairly sure that Alan Burnard's car had an ERA engine for a time whilst he was trying (successfully) to obtain/build up an original engine.

Mark

[Doug Nye]

The best evidence of contemporary cost that I have ever seen was that the 1926 team of four 1.5LS cars represented an investment by Louis Delage's company of some £36,000 Stirling. Somewhere I have a price accumulator table issued by the National Statistical Office but I can never find things when they would be useful...

The Collier Collection car by the way had its engine totally dismantled to the last split-pin and washer during the late 1940s by a youthful American mechanic named Phil Hill (!).

During its period in the Cunningham Collection it was restored to a decidedly eccentric standard, with the body basically resprayed a dark blue apart from the bonnet - 'hood' - which was stripped to bare aluminium and then engine-turned and polished.

The car is currently being re-restored to Miles Collier's peerless standards, as close as possible to original form, livery and speicifcation. To this end the engine - with its more than 60 individual roller bearings and ball races - is presently with (you guessed it) Crosthwaite & Gardiner in England.

DCN

[Pete Stowe]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The best evidence of contemporary cost that I have ever seen was that the 1926 team of four 1.5LS cars represented an investment by Louis Delage's company of some £36,000 Stirling. Somewhere I have a price accumulator table issued by the National Statistical Office but I can never find things when they would be useful...

DCN

According to this http://eh.net/hmit/ppowerbp/ it's equivalent to £1,415,100 Stirling (or even Sterling )today. Sounds quite reasonable compared to what gets spent on GP cars these days.

[David McKinney]

Getting back to the question of present owners:
The Mayman ERA-powered car is, as mentioned before, with Bruce Spollon
I've lost track of the one listed for Pozzoli - possibly still Aba Kogan

And Mark - you're right, Alan Burnand did have an ERA engine in his car for a while (having raced the ex-Walker ERA-Delage in an earlier period)

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Pete Stowe
...According to this http://eh.net/hmit/ppowerbp/ it's equivalent to £1,415,100 Stirling (or even Sterling )today. Sounds quite reasonable compared to what gets spent on GP cars these days....

UNBELIEVABLE! That's one of the few errors I NEVER make....even when typing quickly here... This lunchtime we'd just put together a video intro for 'Golden Boy'.

[Leif Snellman]

According to an article in "Old Motor" July 1979, reproduced in "ERA Golden Portfolio", Reg Parnell built a car called "Challenger" with a ERA engine back in 1939. Immediately after the war he installed a 1.5L Delage engine and the car was briefly raced by David Hampshire. Then the car disappeared. I guess Parnell needed the engine when he re-assambled his Delage cars.

[Vitesse2]

More on Challenger here Leif. Or was it really meant to be "Challenge"?

[D-Type]

According to DSJ in the Racing Car Pocketbook

Reg Parnell started building the car in 1939. It was initially called 'The Challenge' and later changed to 'Challenger'. Originally intended to have a twin OHC 6-cylinder engine based on the MG Magnette, the car ran once at Prescott prewar using an ERA engine and gearbox. Tubular chassis, i.f.s., De Dion rear end.

As Leif says, postwar Parnell installed a Delage engine and David Hampshire raced it.

Interestingly, in the light of the recent thread regarding six-wheeled cars, the photograph of the car in 1939 shows it with twin rear wheels bearing out the contention that twin rears was common for hillclimbers at that time.

Edited by D-Type, 13 August 2009 - 20:46.

[David McKinney]

Maybe I'm the only one who can't get Richard's link to work. If so, I'll probably be made to look a fool with the following:
The car in its original pre-war ERA-powered form was called the Challenge
By the time it got its Delage engine after the war it had become the Challenger
It apparently later went to the States, where someone equipped it with a V12 Delahaye engine. It was still in existence, presumably in the US, in 1986

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Maybe I'm the only one who can't get Richard's link to work.

Don't worry David! I cannot get it to work either!

(Well I finally succeded!)

[Vitesse2]

Oops! Fixed now ...

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by David McKinney
...The car in its original pre-war ERA-powered form was called the Challenge
By the time it got its Delage engine after the war it had become the Challenger
It apparently later went to the States, where someone equipped it with a V12 Delahaye engine. It was still in existence, presumably in the US, in 1986

This - for years - has remained an enduring mystery to me. Tim Parnell recalled hearing that his Dad's old car was somewhere in the US but I have never got any closer to pinning down its fate. Do any of our American contributors have any recollections of the car's existence in the States????

DCN

[Steve L]

The Challenger was "found" by American enthusiast Dean Butler (see C&SS August 1999 p26).

I don't know if he still owns it - I remember seeing it for sale on the internet a few months back.

Talking of Parnell's cars, I would like to know if the Bugatti-engined B.H.W still survives?

[cabianca]

Car N.1 #21642/1 team car and certainly the proto. De Rovin-circa 1936 Bancroft-Lee-Cunningham-Collier. The only car nearly "d'origine".
Car N.2 #18489 team car for Divo. Campbell (1928)-Scott (1928) -Davis (1932)-Chula (1937)-Parnell-Woodall-Rowley-Cannon-Burnard.
Car N.3 #21641 team car for Benoist. Campbell (1928)-Howe (1931) destroyed Monza 1932
Car N.4 #18488 team car. Chiron (Indy 1929)-Sénéchal (1930)-Howe (end of 1931)-Seaman (end of 1935)-Chula (1937)-Parnell (1945)-Hampshire-Walker (1950)-Pozzoli.
Car N.5 #WMG-101.Chula made with IF designed by Lory. Raced by "Bira"-Parnell-Woodall-Rowley-Beebee-Woolley-Bradley-Bamford-Classic-Young-Berg-Milloë
Car N.6 #WMG-102?. Idem N.5. Chula-Parnell-Habershon-Walker- Burnard-Goodhew-Kerr-Poter-Lindsay-Mayman.

According to Joel Finn's American Road Racing in the 1930s, the Collier car was the 1929 Chiron Indy car. Where does De Rovin fit in the picture and how did the car get to America if it wasn't the Indy car? A man named Price McKinney, a banker from Cleveland, offered the car for sale in 1934. He claimed he bought it in France in 1929. In any case, Hugh Bancroft (Boston) bought it in April 1935. He raced it in ARCA races in 1936-7.

From late 1937, it remained in the garage of Bancroft's mechanic, Frank Alden, who occasionally raced it in ARCA. In 1940 Alen took possession. Sometime in the 1940s Tommy Lee (Los Angeles) bought it. He sold it to Terry Hall (Los Angeles), a professional figure skater and racer, probably in the 1950s. Cunningham bought it in April 1955 and it went with other cars from Cunningham's collection to the Collier Collection in December 1986.

If the Collier car is not the 1929 Indy car, what is its history from 1927 until McKinney. As I said above, who is De Rovin? Many thanks.

[David McKinney]

De Rovin made his name building and racing cars of his own name, winning several French races in 1927 and 1928. He raced his Delage at Monaco on 14 April 1929, and entered it again for the French GP on 30 June; it was a nonstarter, which could I suppose suggest that it was on its way back to Indianapolis. However, all the (European) sources I've read have Chiron's Indianapolis mount as a different car

According to the same sources, the de Rovin car went to the US "about 1930" - then nothing else until Bancroft in 1935, so the banker with the funny name must have acquired it in that time-frame

[robert dick]

De Rovin:
http://raoulderovin.ifrance.com/

[Dutchy]

In recent times Alan Burnard has assembled a car incorpirating what remains of No.3 and fitted the ERA engine he built for No.2 (before he completed the Delage unit).

The remarkable story of his rebuild of No. 2 was written up in The Automobile (Dec 2008 and Jan 2009)

Edited by Dutchy, 03 November 2009 - 15:04.

[scags]

The Collier car was at Lime rock in September(not on track). I'll post a picture later today.

[Doug Nye]

Miles Collier's straight-8 GP Delage is of course the former Briggs Cunningham Museum exhibit. According to my friend David Burgess-Wise who is a Delage specialist Raoul De Rovin did indeed drive this example in the 1929 Monaco GP and presumably sold it afterwards. Daniel Cabart produced a detailed history of all the 15 S 8 racers, identifying the Cunningham/Collier vehicle as the works' development car, engine #5 - which won the 1927 GP de l'Ouverture at Montlhery. American owner Tommy Lee did 105 mph in the Delage in the Mojave desert and there is a picture of the car in that location in AQ.

Daniel Cabart's dossier on the 15 S 8 Delages confirms:

Car #1 (21642) = 1929 Monaco GP, slightly damaged during the first Monaco GP when owned/driven by Raoul de Rovin

Car #4 (18488) = Bought from the works by Louis Chiron and raced at Indianapolis. Returned to France and sold to Robert Senechal, then Lord Howe, Dick Seaman.

DCN