25 replies to this topic

[just me again]

Hi
I was just reading a piece about Cheating in Motorsport on www.pitpass.com that Mike Lawrence have made.
He is Writing about the current Ferrari/Toyota case but is also mentioning this :

"For historical background, Enzo Ferrari was once an industrial spy for Alfa Romeo, he admitted as much. When Ferrari considered making a mid-engined F1 car, it bought a couple of Cooper T51s, fitted them with Ferrari Tipo 555 'Super Squalo' engines and created a fictitious private team, Scuderia Eugenio Castellotti, to gain experience of running mid-engined cars.)"

Is this a Correct statement, i have sometimes a feeling that Mike Lawrences "Facts" is from he's memory and therefore can be a little "twisted"

I have made a seach on this Forum for a thread about these cars, but the one i found was from 2000 and would noy accept new posts,

Bjørn

[D-Type]

I can't remember my source, but I remember reading that the Scuderia Eugenio Castellotti received some help from Ferrari as he did want to learn about rear engined cars. This may have been simply free-issuing the engines.

I think it is an exaggeration to say that the Scuderia Castellotti was a fictitious team set up by Ferrari.

[GIGLEUX]

Rather strange story and first time I read such things.
Scuderia Castelotti was created in 1960 and ran old Cooper chassis with even older Ferrari engines.
The same year and at the same time Ferrari entered a rear engined Dino 246 at Monaco, driven by Ginther; Sc.Castelotti took an entry but did not qualify: 1.47.4 for Scarlatti against 1.38.6 for Ginther, the writting was on the wall! The Ferrari also appeared at Zandvoort during practise sessions of the Dutch GP.
Atfer that the Ferrari was developped and converted into a Dino 156 by putting a 1500-V6 engine.A kind of repetition for 1961; with it von Trips won the Solitude race, finished 5 th in the Italian GP (and first of the F2s) and 3rd in Modena GP after a broken brake pipe prevented him to continue his struggle with Bonnier's Porsche for first place. During this the only notable result for the Cooper-Ferrari was a fourth place for Cabianca in the Italian GP, two laps behind the winner and just in front of v.Trips. And everybody knows what kind of race the Italian GP was that year. So did Ferrari really need such cars? Let me doubt; maybe Ferrari's specialists can answer more precisely.

[David McKinney]

I'm inclined to agree with the cynics on this one
Ferrari might indeed have supplied the engines free, but they were very much surplus to requirements, having not been run in GPs since the beginning of 1956
And, if I might take issue with the last post, the Scuderia Castellotti Coopers were not old, but brand new

[Rob29]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I'm inclined to agree with the cynics on this one
Ferrari might indeed have supplied the engines free, but they were very much surplus to requirements, having not been run in GPs since the beginning of 1956
And, if I might take issue with the last post, the Scuderia Castellotti Coopers were not old, but brand new

Newly built but the previous years model,as were Centro-Sud & Yeoman Credit cars. The motors were reported to have come from old sports cars.

[David McKinney]

The T51 was still the latest model anyone could buy in 1960 ;)

[Doug Nye]

My understanding of Scuderia Castellotti is that Gigleux is quite right and Mike's original notion - if correctly quoted - is just nonsense.

Ferrari had absolutely no need of such cars and - I am confident - would certainly not have expended (or 'invested') any precious funds in them, as opposed to ridding its shelves of some ancient engines for the blokes who did put money into them.

It was explained to me long ago - by Pete Coltrin - that the Castellotti team was a collaborative effort between old friends and admirers of the deceased Ferrari star. It certainly provided a couple of testbeds which 'could' have been used by Ferrari's collaudatori and race team drivers but I doubt if any meaningful use was ever really made of their production-standard Coopers. Truth is that there was precious little more that Ing. Chiti and his men could have learned from fiddling about with the Scuderia Castellotti's cobbled-up 4-cylinder hybrids than they were learning in parallel with their spearhead experimental V6-engined 246MP - 'Motore Posteriore'...the chassis which became the Trips Solitude and Monza 156 F2 'MP' and then (probably) went to the Italian FISA team for 1961 to provide Baghetti with his fantastic (literally meteoric - Formula 1 baptism that season.

I asked Pete about the team back in 1970-71 when we were helping Tom Wheatcroft put together the Donington Collection and one of his display-standard Ferrari 4-cyl engines sported cam covers with the script 'Eugenio' cast into them - rather similar to the 'Dino' style, presumably copied from the deceased's signature in life. But where the Dino's cam covers were red crackle-finished - Testa Rossa - these were (as I recall) blue - Testa Azzuro???

DCN

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
My understanding of Scuderia Castellotti is that Gigleux is quite right and Mike's original notion - if correctly quoted - is just nonsense.

DCN

Much as I enjoy reading Mike's stuff and admire him as folk-historian of the British racing scene, he does have an enormous bee in his bonnet about Ferrari; it would be almost unreasonable to expect him to be anything like objective about them given the amount of vitriol he's chucked their way in the past!

[Wolf]

Dough & all- here's a quote from 'Cruel Sport', which might be relevant for posed question, so would welcome insights and comments about it.

The Cooper's strength is road holding. John Cooper says that the 1961 Ferrari's suspension was an exact copy of the 1960 Cooper. This delighted him. "If something is beating you," he said, "you must either think up something better, or copy it. No good blundering about."

So, if it turns out to be correct, surely some valuable info could've been obtained from some arrangement with Scuderia Castellotti.

[Rob29]

Problem with that ,Wolf, is the Castelotti cars were 1959 models. Cooper did not sell any 1960 lowline cars until 1961. I guess anyone could examine technical details in those days,when we could wonder around the paddock at leisure and mechanics worked on the cars between the transporters!

[Doug Nye]

Exactly....John meant copy of 1960 'works' Cooper T53 - coil-spring and wishbone rear suspension - whereas the Scuderia Castellotti cars - as far as I recall - were customer T51 cars - featuring transverse leafspring rear suspension.

DCN

[marat]

A few more details.
Before offering the engines, Enzo Ferrari provided Scuderia Castellotti with a Dino 196 S,
driven in 1959 by Cabianca, Scarlatti and Scarfiotti.
The assembling of the chassis and engine was done by Aldo Savigni in Modena who also
serviced the cars. The gearbox was built by Colotti.
Cooper chassis numbers: F2-2-60 and F2-13-60.
The end of the team was Cabianca's accident at Modena (with the taxi).
The remaining car was fitted by Munaron with an Alfa Giulia 1,6 litre engine and entered in
hillclimb.

[Wolf]

Doug, of course, but I figured a good insight in suspension characteristics of earlier model could provide a good starting point into 'reverse engineering' later model (barring some drastic changes were made). Anyways, thanks guys.

[Doug Nye]

Marat - that's excellent information...do you know any more about the 'names' behind the little team?

DCN

[alessandro silva]

The complete name of the outfit that had assembled and serviced the Coopers Castellotti was "Leoni and Savigni". Leoni had been a mechanic with Maserati, Savigni with Ferrari. Their shop was located in via Pelusia. It was of similar size as the one of Neri and Bonacini but was going to have less luck. For 1961, the Scuderia intended to participate to the Intercontinental Formula races. They switched to the shop "Lucchi and Mazzetti" located at viale J. Barozzi. [Pietro Mazzetti, born 1914 had been a mechanic with Ferrari and Maserati from 1938 to 1960]. I know nothing else about this business.
Cabianca's accident was during testing in view of the July Silverstone race.
I cannot locate some notes on the management of the Scuderia which I know I have somewhere. If I'll find them in a reasonable amount of time, I'll post.
The whole thing was so amateurish that I think any speculation about an interest from Ferrari is at least preposterous.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Having just done it on Centro Sud , thought I would try here too :

Found on the TNF : Cooper T51-Castellotti and Ferrari power in other cars.

[Rob Ryder]

Posted on behalf of Bjørn Kjer..

[Bjorn Kjer]

My friend Rob posted the above for me ! Thanks Rob! I am still trying to find out what kind of vehicle it could be from . Its the GB GP 1960 ! Does any of you have a guess or know a van or lorry specialist besides myself who would try guessing???????

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by marat
A few more details.
Before offering the engines, Enzo Ferrari provided Scuderia Castellotti with a Dino 196 S,
driven in 1959 by Cabianca, Scarlatti and Scarfiotti.
The assembling of the chassis and engine was done by Aldo Savigni in Modena who also
serviced the cars. The gearbox was built by Colotti.
Cooper chassis numbers: F2-2-60 and F2-13-60.
The end of the team was Cabianca's accident at Modena (with the taxi).
The remaining car was fitted by Munaron with an Alfa Giulia 1,6 litre engine and entered in
hillclimb.

By any chance, any photos of the Alfa powered car?

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by dretceterini



By any chance, any photos of the Alfa powered car?

Don't know if we are speaking of the same car but in 1961 Munaron ran a Cooper-Conrero, Alfa engined, of course,and a body designed by Michelotti. He ran it at Pau where he retired, and could not qualified at the Syracuse GP; he finished third at the Mont Ventoux hillclimb behind Walter (Porsche RS61) and Trintignant (Cooper-Maserati). The car was sold in France and raced from 1962,in hillclimbs by Baboulin. It still exists.
From pictures it seems that at Mont-Ventoux the car had a more conventional Cooper body.

Stu, if you want pictures send me your e-mail address.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


Don't know if we are speaking of the same car but in 1961 Munaron ran a Cooper-Conrero, Alfa engined, of course,and a body designed by Michelotti. He ran it at Pau where he retired, and could not qualified at the Syracuse GP; he finished third at the Mont Ventoux hillclimb behind Walter (Porsche RS61) and Trintignant (Cooper-Maserati). The car was sold in France and raced from 1962,in hillclimbs by Baboulin. It still exists.
From pictures it seems that at Mont-Ventoux the car had a more conventional Cooper body.

Stu, if you want pictures send me your e-mail address.

Thanks. I have plenty of photos of the Cooper-Conrero, but based on what was posted, I am thinking this is another car.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
back in 1970-71 when we were helping Tom Wheatcroft put together the Donington Collection and one of his display-standard Ferrari 4-cyl engines sported cam covers with the script 'Eugenio' cast into them - rather similar to the 'Dino' style, presumably copied from the deceased's signature in life. But where the Dino's cam covers were red crackle-finished - Testa Rossa - these were (as I recall) blue - Testa Azzuro???

DCN

Last Sunday I was able to fulfill a travel idea I had for 20+ years: visit the Donington Collection.
For me a great experience meeting many cars I saw in so many books and mags. Other great aspect is the amount of souvenirs such as helmets, spare body parts and engine found when drooling along. Here is the typical Ferrari Eugenio engine I noted next to the Williamds armada. Indeed Testa Azzuro as mounted in Coopers for the 1960 season: DNQ in Monaco and RET in France and Italy.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Can anyone help me id-ing the logo to the left of LODI on my picture ?

[dretceterini]

Scuderia Automobilistica logo. Sorry, but I don't have a decent picture of it....

[BryanP]

I research Ferrari's 4-cylinder cars. If anyone here knows, or is near Donnington and wouldn't mind checking, what is the internal motor number of this engine? It can be found stamped on a boss on the rear-right of the engine.

thank you,
Bryan Phillips

[Bjorn Kjer]

Post 17 and 23 :

Their transporter from wich the door in post 17 is , was a Fiat (666?) 2 axle truck with 1 1/2 cabin ,low
sided with tarpaulin.

Their logo was a steering wheel with 2 connections to the center horizantally and 1 downwards from the center wich spelled EC. This connection was "a fat one " in the the Italian flag colours of green-white -red.