54 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

A lot of folks on this site were wondering just what kind of engine would be in Toyota's new NASCAR truck, and here it is.

From the Jayski Truck site @ Jayski.com

http://jayski.thatsr.../trd-engine.jpg

Toyota has announced that Bang Racing, Bill Davis Racing, Innovative Motorsports Inc. and Waltrip Racing Inc. will field Toyota Tundra race trucks in the 2004 NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series. In addition to running Tundra trucks in 2004, Davis will be assisting Toyota Racing Development (TRD) U.S.A. in the construction of the Toyota Tundra race trucks and the building of the NASCAR-spec Tundra Racing V8 engines. "We are extremely excited to be entering the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series next year with these four quality teams, all of which will be significant new additions to the series," said Jim Aust, vice president of Motorsports at Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., and president and CEO of Toyota Racing Development (TRD) U.S.A. "Each of them brings a wealth of racing experience and knowledge that will be invaluable to our program."
Toyota announced its entry in the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series last February at the Chicago Auto Show. The Toyota Tundra race-truck body and chassis were submitted to NASCAR in July, and the first track test was conducted in August at Caraway Speedway. TRD U.S.A. has designed and developed the Tundra Racing V8 for the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series in its Costa Mesa, Calif., facility. The engine was unveiled on Nov. 5 at the SEMA show in Las Vegas.

[RedIsTheColour]

There must have been a lot of stuff on that Ferrari CD ;)

[Paste]

Originally posted by RedIsTheColour
There must have been a lot of stuff on that Ferrari CD ;)

[biercemountain]

I can just see all the younger enginers having to consult with their older coworkers to have the following conversation:

"What is this 'carburator' thing that the Nascar regulations refer to?"

"You young people today. No appreciation for ancient history"

"Why do we have to use pushrods? Can't we have an overhead cam with variable timing?"

"Oh shut up and just follow the regulations, even if they seem like they were written in 1920"

"But what about all the great technology we've got on that Ferrari CD. Can't we use some of that?"

"Mention that again and you'll be terminated"


But seriously, I'm sure some of the engineers do scratch their heads at how antiquated the technology on a Nascar engine is.

[joriswouters]

Why does that make the NASCAR-fans cry? Are the afraid that the American motormonopoly that is NASCAR will be broken. Do they think that a Japanese engined car will win over Chevvy, Ford or Dodge?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well basically, yeah. There hasnt been factory racing in NASCAR in *forever*. Even though there's 4 different teams, TRD is building the engines and chassis (with help from Swift)


They will kill the truck series unfortunately when they leave.

[joriswouters]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Well basically, yeah. There hasnt been factory racing in NASCAR in *forever*. Even though there's 4 different teams, TRD is building the engines and chassis (with help from Swift)


They will kill the truck series unfortunately when they leave.

Why would it harm the series if there are 4 works teams?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Because you wont be able to compete with them. They'll raise the cost of competition. Then they will make it harder to attract sponsors because they subsidise so much of the racing they can offer you full title sponsorship for like half price. They'll artificially inflate the series, then when they leave there will be a collapse and a vacuum.

Honda and Toyota, imo more so Toyota, were a big part of the downfall of CART. Granted there were existing problems but they didnt help. The beginning of the end was when Toyota started moving from the back of the grid to the front.

They're much more suited to F1 where they're up against teams, sponsors, and engine partners who can play at their level

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by RedIsTheColour
There must have been a lot of stuff on that Ferrari CD ;)

Because Ferrari have a very long history of cast iron, cam-in-block ohv valve engines with single 4-barrel carbies! :

[DamattaSpeed]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Because you wont be able to compete with them. They'll raise the cost of competition. Then they will make it harder to attract sponsors because they subsidise so much of the racing they can offer you full title sponsorship for like half price. They'll artificially inflate the series, then when they leave there will be a collapse and a vacuum.

Honda and Toyota, imo more so Toyota, were a big part of the downfall of CART. Granted there were existing problems but they didnt help. The beginning of the end was when Toyota started moving from the back of the grid to the front.

They're much more suited to F1 where they're up against teams, sponsors, and engine partners who can play at their level

Damn, if this isn't historically accurate, I don't know what is.

Toyota are like Godzilla. Absolute crushers. Take no prisoners mentality in everything they do.

[biercemountain]

Originally posted by DamattaSpeed
Toyota are like Godzilla. Absolute crushers. Take no prisoners mentality in everything they do.

Defeat at LeMans must have been a really bitter pill for them to swallow. They got so close but just never got the victory. Win or lose they departed just like Ross pointed out. Sportscar racing has certainly suffered over the years because this same type of "dominate and depart" mentality.

[stenney]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Because you wont be able to compete with them. They'll raise the cost of competition. Then they will make it harder to attract sponsors because they subsidise so much of the racing they can offer you full title sponsorship for like half price. They'll artificially inflate the series, then when they leave there will be a collapse and a vacuum.

Honda and Toyota, imo more so Toyota, were a big part of the downfall of CART. Granted there were existing problems but they didnt help. The beginning of the end was when Toyota started moving from the back of the grid to the front.

They're much more suited to F1 where they're up against teams, sponsors, and engine partners who can play at their level

From what I've heard they want to build all of the engines in one place and ship them to the teams. I assume more or less as sealed units. This is contrary to what is normally done in NASCAR where an engine builder for the team builds the engines with some factory assistance. Jack Roush said this summer about the truck series that the factories needed to get out and let the tuners take over. That's the view of typical NASCAR. It will be very interesting to see how Toyota changes NASCAR. Once they get into the Cup cars things will change. It's bound to.

First question: When will NASCAR have fuel injected cars...it's got to be coming. Nobody but NASCAR uses them anywhere anymore.

[Megatron]

Robert Yates, after buidling a 6.0 liter ALMS and 5.0 Grand Am Ford V8 with fuel injection, called on NASCAR to make the change. It is believed he had the backing of Ford and it is also suspected that Toytoa would eventually prefer fuel injection. A GM spokesperson denounced the change saying that in NASCAR a fuel injection engine would make "over 1000 HP". NASCAR's offical claim is that it is on their "radar screen" but it is not pressing. When NASCAR says "not pressing", genereally expect 10-15 years.

[Spunout]

Ross Stonefield has a point and it may well be he is correct. But I am wondering are NASCAR _fans_ really more worried of "dominate & depart" strategy causing financial dilemma, or non-american engine supplier beating american engine suppliers? After all, NASCAR is close of being 100% american series and it seems many people want to keep it that way.

BTW too bad there was this rift between US and France, Jean Alesi once revealed he was interested of racing in NASCAR after he retires from F1. But guess how good chances any FRENCH guy has to find a seat from NASCAR? :

Perhaps Japanese engine -> Jean Alesi to NASCAR?;)

Rename him Joe Al Jr and NASCAR fans will love the guy

Ok I am being unrealistic...

[biercemountain]

Originally posted by Spunout
Jean Alesi to NASCAR?;)

Rename him Joe Al Jr and NASCAR fans will love the guy

I vote we call him "Johnny Allison"

The only problem is that Jean would open his mouth and say something and all the good ol boys would say, "You aint from around here are ya?"

[Todd]

Originally posted by RedIsTheColour
There must have been a lot of stuff on that Ferrari CD ;)

True to Toyota form, Bill Davis Racing was dropped by Daimler because Toyota used them to get their hands on some Daimler-Chrysler racing engines.

[stenney]

Originally posted by Megatron
Robert Yates, after buidling a 6.0 liter ALMS and 5.0 Grand Am Ford V8 with fuel injection, called on NASCAR to make the change. It is believed he had the backing of Ford and it is also suspected that Toytoa would eventually prefer fuel injection. A GM spokesperson denounced the change saying that in NASCAR a fuel injection engine would make "over 1000 HP". NASCAR's offical claim is that it is on their "radar screen" but it is not pressing. When NASCAR says "not pressing", genereally expect 10-15 years.

NASCAR would be the natural place for a sealed black box fuel management system and perhaps the smallest fuel injectors known to man. Imagine if NASCAR figured out that they could control the individual engines from their "control room" and adjust the speed of the cars in realtime. It would open a whole new view on their view of competition.

[Megatron]

Aside from the low tech engine formula, I do wonder how TOyota will accept the new "common templates", which makes every car look identical except for hte grill and headlight decals. Its was part of NASCAR's long term plan when they drew up a Taurus for Ford in 1998 that was essentially a "NASCAR' designed machine with nice Taurus decals. When Dodge came back, it was a Taurus with a Ford grill. THe final two changes happened to GM (who were the same who opposed fuel injection irronically) making Jeff Gordon and Earnhardt Jr. drive around in some odd looking contraption that had Chevy decals.

GM was the most outspoken and pulled Pontiac out a couple of weeks ago without any warning to anyone, including the teams which at least one or two 2004 spec "Pontiacs" ready to go. I wonder how Toyota will feel if their main way of telling people its a Toyota is a set of decals.

So, basically, their "2003" models this year were some NASCAR designed odd looking contraption that had engines based back to the 1950s. Even the most hard headed in the NASCAR fan department took a look at the cars and said "Gee, whats stock about them anymore?".

[marion5drsn]

Well one thing we could take from this is that Toyota isn't going back into C.A.R.T. and if for some reason the thing at I.R.L. doesn't pan out they won't be staying there either! M.L. Anderson

[Rocky]

Just imagine what will happen when Toyota makes it to the Nextel Cup level (that name is going take some getting used to) with their current factory support model. If they have success (which they almost always do) it will change the amount or type of support that GM, Ford, and Dodge give their teams. Just like in Cart and now the IRL, it is going to make the sport a lot more expensive.

However, having the four largest car manufacturers in the world competing in one series will be interesting. Too bad its NASCAR.

[Chevy II Nova]

Megatron, each constructor still creates their on grille. They are not spec. It is then up to the teams to fabricate the body. NASCAR does not issue these pieces.

As for the motor, so what? Looks like a small block. Whoopee!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by marion5drsn
Well one thing we could take from this is that Toyota isn't going back into C.A.R.T. and if for some reason the thing at I.R.L. doesn't pan out they won't be staying there either! M.L. Anderson

Doesnt pan out? They crushed the IRL. Not only that, but their #1 rivals Honda had less wins than Chevrolosworth

[Megatron]

Originally posted by Chevy II Nova
Megatron, each constructor still creates their on grille. They are not spec. It is then up to the teams to fabricate the body. NASCAR does not issue these pieces.

As for the motor, so what? Looks like a small block. Whoopee!

I am aware of the grill, I did not mention it and that is my fault. But oh my, the grill is different. Those millions in marketing dollars from Pontiac were well spent!

The bottom line is that Chevy tried to incorporate as much street into the body of the 2000 Monte Carlo when it was designed. Now they have a Taurus with Monte Carlo stickers and yes, a grill. But wait, it really isn't a Taurus, its a NASCAR.

The templates on a stock car are extreme and most of them are the same spec. NASCAR has plans to introudce even MORE spec templates next year, which Ray Evernham says just wasted three new "Dodge" bodies his team had already built. NASCAR has done this to try and clamp down on the one technology that it couldn't control in the 90s, and that was the aerodynamics, which were growing increasingly more "hi tech". Yes, NASCAR can mandate primative engine technology, it can accuse Hoosier of causing every wreck that ever happened so Goodyear can produce two week old left side tires and six month old rights, but it couldn't control the aero technology until it spec'd the whole friggen thing. And just what NASCAR needs in 2004, MORE templates.

GM's PR on the Pontiac withdraw did not mention common templates by name but did say that any future Pontiac racing activities would be closer to what they actually sell. GM was from the start against the common template and NASCAR threw it at them anyway. GM pulled Pontiac out and now NASCAR has to find a new pace car.

Since it withdrew in 1978, rumors had circulated for ages that Dodge was planning a comeback. And for years it was denied. According to word on teh street, it was due to the fact that NASCAR really didn't offer anything aside from the body that Dodge actually still SOLD. Thus the Viper project got the go ahead and the NASCAR rumors continued and continued to be denied. Though Dodge would not admit it, it is highly believed that it was the network of Dodge dealers that got tired of being asked if the would return to NASCAR that finally convinced Dodge that even if NASCAR was not an engineering exercise, advertising it could be wise. I can only assume that TRD, which has built engines for CART and now the IRL, is assuming the same thing.

[Megatron]

Hey wait a minute, in reading my earlier post, I realized I did mention the grill. Never mind the "my fault" line.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The NASCAR situation is unique though. Toyota are racing the Tundra. They're building the car and the chassis, and the Tundra truck line is very important to the corporate-car side. So its a different fish from their Le Mans/F1/CART stuff which is a 'branding' and technology exercise. This is the closest Toyota's really gone in a while to 'win on sunday, sell on monday' racing programs. So in one respect there's a lot of logic to them going Cup eventually, but a the same time not. As we all know, theres a lack of vehicle identity. Additionally, NASCAR is not what I call a 'manufacturer' series. We dont talk about Fords or Chevies or whatever except in extreme cases where one design is clearly better than another. That could certainly happen if Toyota ever entered the premier division. But ultimately when they win it will be about Driver X and Team X winning for the 5th time that year. Then again because it is Toyota, they will get more attention per performance than a 'regular' mfg

Plus they're going to market the hell out of it

[stenney]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The NASCAR situation is unique though. Toyota are racing the Tundra. They're building the car and the chassis, and the Tundra truck line is very important to the corporate-car side. So its a different fish from their Le Mans/F1/CART stuff which is a 'branding' and technology exercise. This is the closest Toyota's really gone in a while to 'win on sunday, sell on monday' racing programs. So in one respect there's a lot of logic to them going Cup eventually, but a the same time not. As we all know, theres a lack of vehicle identity. Additionally, NASCAR is not what I call a 'manufacturer' series. We dont talk about Fords or Chevies or whatever except in extreme cases where one design is clearly better than another. That could certainly happen if Toyota ever entered the premier division. But ultimately when they win it will be about Driver X and Team X winning for the 5th time that year. Then again because it is Toyota, they will get more attention per performance than a 'regular' mfg

Plus they're going to market the hell out of it

Can't you just see it: TOYOTA BEATS THE GOOD OLE BOYS AT DAYTONA!

Their approach to racing may change the landscape some (or a lot for that matter). If Toyota builds and supplies the engines and finds success, will other manufacturers begin to do the same? The current NASCAR world is based on the Drivers and Teams as you say, but that may begin to change in the manufacturers direction. I'm not a true NASCAR fan at all. I'll watch it some, but tend to get tired of it. It seems to me though that the Ford, Chevy identity/rivalry still exists with the fans. The personalities are part of it too. It's not a "manufacturers series" because NASCAR doesn't want it that way, right?

[mp4]

Interesting topic!
Can anyone tell me about the motors involved?
I know they are about 355 C.I.D. with about 650ish B.H.P.
Was the Chevy motor uniquely different from the Pontiac?

[stenney]

Originally posted by mp4
Interesting topic!
Can anyone tell me about the motors involved?
I know they are about 355 C.I.D. with about 650ish B.H.P.
Was the Chevy motor uniquely different from the Pontiac?

I think the Pontiac motor was in fact the Chevy motor. Years ago the GM divisions used their own engines, but no more. The lineage of the Chevy engine goes back to the early fifties. They've done a lot with it, but it is what it is an old push rod V8. I'm assuming they're running the small block Chevy. At times other configurations have been allowed. Maybe someone can confirm this, but didn't Ford run an overhead cam engine or at least test it until NASCAR outlawed it? Chrysler used to run their famous Hemi engine, but I don't think they use it any more. Even though they've started production again. All of them running a four barrel carburetor. Things like fuel injection and computers make NASCAR nervous.

[Chevy II Nova]

As they should, stenney. It has kept costs down. They don't want to end up like F1, and where the NHRA is heading.

The motors are a max of 358ci. I believe the carb and fuel are the only other restrictions, so efficiency is the name of the game for engines. I believe they are around 800bhp.

Edit: I don't think Ford ever used the "Cammer" for NASCAR, I know they did in NHRA until they outlawed it.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by stenney
Chrysler used to run their famous Hemi engine, but I don't think they use it any more. Even though they've started production again. All of them running a four barrel carburetor. Things like fuel injection and computers make NASCAR nervous.

The Hemi that Chrysler used was the 426, as big blocks were allowed back then.

The new "hemi" shares little, or nothing, of the original save for the name. I think it actually shares some of its thinking with the Mercedes Benz/Ilmor 500I that won Indy in 1994.

[stenney]

Originally posted by Wuzak


The Hemi that Chrysler used was the 426, as big blocks were allowed back then.

The new "hemi" shares little, or nothing, of the original save for the name. I think it actually shares some of its thinking with the Mercedes Benz/Ilmor 500I that won Indy in 1994.

I didn't know the current "hemi" has no connection with the old...save the name. I shouldn't be surprised though should I?

[Chevy II Nova]

Um, I am fairly sure that the new Hemi motor has hemispherical chambers, hence the "Hemi" name...

[ray b]

the true pontiac V8 died in 1980
the nastycar motor is a old chevy V8
with pontiac stamped on the heads
not the newest lt4 alloy motor
the one with reverced flow cooling and crank trigger sparks
or even the lt1 old style alloy motor

so both chevy and ford race motors they donot use or sell in cars anymore
as ford only sell ohc motors even in pickup trucks
and chevy does not sell a v8 car other than the vett
I think the dodge race v8 is based on the old 340 little wedge
and none of the nasty cars , reardrive,pushrod v8's are sold in the usa any more
all are FWD v6 cars in street form as sold here

I wish they would bring back real stock cars
as sold to the public with mini safty mods
with DOHC and FI
and let the euro cars race too

sad to see how homestead track has been converted
from a 4cornered semi-flat track[indy copy] to a hi-banked mess
as the nastycar rednecks called the indy copy a 4 turn ROAD COURSE
that need skill to drive [that they DONOT HAVE}

[Rob G]

Originally posted by ray b
and none of the nasty cars , reardrive,pushrod v8's are sold in the usa any more
all are FWD v6 cars in street form as sold here

Not only that, but up until the debut of the Taurus all Winston Cup cars were coupes. The Ford Taurus and Dodge Intrepid are only sold as four-door sedans, so NASCAR had to get creative to allow them to race with a two-door pillar arrangement. Imagine a guy like Jimmy Spencer trying to squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze through a standard four-door sedan window opening.

[Chevy II Nova]

I want to see stock bodies return. Throw the 358's in Montes, Intrepids and Taureses and lets go racing.

[Justafan]

Originally posted by Chevy II Nova
I want to see stock bodies return. Throw the 358's in Montes, Intrepids and Taureses and lets go racing.

Amen, Brother.

I am at a complete loss why there isn't true "factory" racing. Would a RWD NASCAR version of a Chrysler 300 or Ford Whatevertheyhaveleft sell? You bet. I would pay good money to see real Chrysler 300's, Lexii 4xx, Monte Carlo's and Ford's racin.' As it has been demonstrated time and time again in F1, factories can cheat much better than individual teams. Which real life aero and engine package would dominate? You know, with this century's technology.

Why the all RWD Truck Series isn't a "Pull a good one off the line, Strip the interior, swap the glass, slap in a Roll Cage, weld the doors shut, take off the spare, ****** the timin' and GO!" racing deal, I will never know.

The possibilities are staggering. But that's what Winter is for...(We need a New Tasman Series, badly!)

Headlight decals are stupid.

[Chevy II Nova]

Personally, I don't want to see showroom stock cars going around an oval. I would rather see the car companies have to come up with a design that was suitable for selling while still having good aero. Drop the small blocks in there and run em around. Have the templates be made according to the manufactuares dimensions so that no teams modify them etc etc.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Chevy II Nova
Personally, I don't want to see showroom stock cars going around an oval. I would rather see the car companies have to come up with a design that was suitable for selling while still having good aero. Drop the small blocks in there and run em around. Have the templates be made according to the manufactuares dimensions so that no teams modify them etc etc.

Or.........

Mandate that the car comes off the factory line. Allow them to move the firewall, and modify the floor to accomodate the tranmission and driveshaft (if necessary), and drop in the V8. They could build the roll cage/chassis within the original body.

Or would that be too simple??

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Chevy II Nova
Um, I am fairly sure that the new Hemi motor has hemispherical chambers, hence the "Hemi" name...

Not the same hemispherical chambers as the original Hemi, which had a very wide angle between th einlet and exhaust valve.

I believe that the new Hemi has a much narrower angle between the valves.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Wuzak


Not the same hemispherical chambers as the original Hemi, which had a very wide angle between th einlet and exhaust valve.

I believe that the new Hemi has a much narrower angle between the valves.

Or, I could be wrong!

Here's a picture of the new Hemi - it has part of the head cut away, but it isn't a good picture.

http://www.allpar.co...ages/hemi-2.jpg

[Wuzak]

Here's a better pic...

http://www.dodgeboy....emi_cutaway.jpg

[Megatron]

Originally posted by Justafan


Amen, Brother.

I am at a complete loss why there isn't true "factory" racing. Would a RWD NASCAR version of a Chrysler 300 or Ford Whatevertheyhaveleft sell? You bet. I would pay good money to see real Chrysler 300's, Lexii 4xx, Monte Carlo's and Ford's racin.' As it has been demonstrated time and time again in F1, factories can cheat much better than individual teams. Which real life aero and engine package would dominate? You know, with this century's technology.

Why the all RWD Truck Series isn't a "Pull a good one off the line, Strip the interior, swap the glass, slap in a Roll Cage, weld the doors shut, take off the spare, ****** the timin' and GO!" racing deal, I will never know.

The possibilities are staggering. But that's what Winter is for...(We need a New Tasman Series, badly!)

Headlight decals are stupid.

NASCAR is extremely slow to change the status quo. It was in the mid 1980s that drivers first requested a traveling medical team. They are still requesting them. Ryan Newman's accident at Watkins Glen summed it up best when he said "it took forever for them to get there and then none of them knew what they were doing".

Brain France at the helm gives me little comfort. He was instrumental in the somewhat ambigous date change of the Southren 500 after over a half century being run on Labor Day. What I would like is to see stock engines from current models with a stock body. Of course, this will take about 20 years at best to accomplish. Robert Yates said that he was tired of NASCAR technology being made fun of, which is what generally happens once people realize that the cars are essentially spec bodies and the engines have NOTHING in common with what is actually sold.

NASCAR says it doesn't want change because of costs, yet for years they were happy to spring rule changes by the week to keep everything "equal", thus making teams highly modify front air dams or rear spoilers. And in their attempt to keep everything equal, they have only RAISED costs. Instead of looking for an advantage by trying new things, the old...old things are put to their absolute limit by the big teams in search of that extra 5 or 10 HP from the old engines. Ford got a new cylinder head, whoopee. GM got the SB2 head a few years back which essentially replaced the cylinder head design used in GM SINCE THE 1950s. If they would stop trying to make everything "equal" perhaps the smaller teams could use their minds and the big teams would not spend endless sums of $$$ on trying to find ANY gain.

I'm not asking for extremly hi tech machines. My father is no tech head but he quit watching after the common template rule and the fact that the engine formula has remained the same since he was about my age. If it were just a little more adjustable instead of trying spec racing, perhaps it would benifit everyone, particurally the manufacturs.

Also, perhaps the roots of NASCAR's problems lied with the Plymouth Superbird, the NASCAR version of the Dauer 962 Porsche. Essentially a racing car with enough street legal versions to keep it going. NASCAR did not like the car and was not welcomed back after restrictions and then a virtual ban was put on the Superbird after 1970.

More on Chrysler, although they withdrew in 1978, a few Chrylser loyals continued to run the car without any factory support. Buddy Arrington in particular. I watched the 1985 Daytona 500 a while back on NASCAR classics and it mentioned that the car Arrington was running for Morgan Shepard in that race was actually an old Petty car, which dated back to at least the start of the 1978 season.

Pontiac, along with a few other cars that are "offically" approved, can run in 2004 but with no support. Also, it isn't looked well upon by the NASCAR boys. John Andretti used a Lincoln bodied Ford loaned from Robert Yates in the Winston Open some years back and it was not exactly welcomed back. Its one of the many unwritten rules in NASCAR, thats how they play the game.

[alan_owens]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The NASCAR situation is unique though. Toyota are racing the Tundra. They're building the car and the chassis, and the Tundra truck line is very important to the corporate-car side. So its a different fish from their Le Mans/F1/CART stuff which is a 'branding' and technology exercise. This is the closest Toyota's really gone in a while to 'win on sunday, sell on monday' racing programs.

Sorry for nit picking, and snipping your post, but most people seem to forget that Toyota had a very successful WRC programme for many years, and IMHO there is no racing formula that epitomises "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" more than rallying. Every boy racer wants a rally car, not many want a Taurus or Camry or whatever....

As for the whole Toyota into NASCAR deal.... IMHO NASCAR will prevent them for dominating the way NASCAR prevents any one team, manufacturer or driver from dominating. Bring on the NASCAR yellows... the mid season rule changes... the enforced parity... windtunnel fussing... airdam adjustments... etc etc

One other thing - although I'm not a fan of the blue oval, I give Ford credit for being into almost every single form of autosport in some capacity. Is there another car company that beats them in racing diversity? Toyota float in and out which IMHO isn't good for each autosport long term.

Alan

[John B]

Originally posted by Megatron




More on Chrysler, although they withdrew in 1978, a few Chrylser loyals continued to run the car without any factory support. Buddy Arrington in particular. I watched the 1985 Daytona 500 a while back on NASCAR classics and it mentioned that the car Arrington was running for Morgan Shepard in that race was actually an old Petty car, which dated back to at least the start of the 1978 season.

That's an old race car - and it got through the 1980-81 wheelbase change?

I'm glad common templates have been discussed, because I can't stand them...I always liked to see new, distinctive cars evolve, and part of the intrigue was seeing if a new car was going to be the hot setup or not. Remember in the 1980s how different most marques were? A Thunderbird looked different from a Monte Carlo, and in years like 1987 there were all kinds of different styles like the Grand Prix, Buick and Olds models. Is the racing that much better now than it was then? Not sure about that.......I prefer a system that forces a manufacturer to come up with something better if it's getting its butt kicked every Sunday, not fall back on a set of rules to create a 42 car IROC (I do understand that NASCAR ideally wants the driver/team to be the main part of the equation).

[Megatron]

Thats what I thought when I heard about it. The wheelbase cars that entered in 1981 replaced the 70s type cars. The drivers hated them. Benny Parsons said "we were used to a car that handled like a dream, but you couldn't get one of those new cars around the racetrack".

Theres a guy who drives one of those Superbirds around town all the time. Those cars are easily worth six figures but he drives it like it just rolled off the line.

I loved the Pontiac 2+2 and the Monte Carlo Fastback of the 80s, VERY distinctive as a road car with racing mods. Supposedly the fastback window added 10 MPH at Daytona testing after Chevy was creamed by the Elliott's Ford in 1985 (though thanks to NASCAR's point system still won the championship with Darrell Waltrip).

[joriswouters]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Because you wont be able to compete with them. They'll raise the cost of competition. Then they will make it harder to attract sponsors because they subsidise so much of the racing they can offer you full title sponsorship for like half price. They'll artificially inflate the series, then when they leave there will be a collapse and a vacuum.

Honda and Toyota, imo more so Toyota, were a big part of the downfall of CART. Granted there were existing problems but they didnt help. The beginning of the end was when Toyota started moving from the back of the grid to the front.

They're much more suited to F1 where they're up against teams, sponsors, and engine partners who can play at their level

Basically you say that the F1story will also happen in NASCAR. And you see in F1 that the costs are way too high. BUT, NASCAR can that way become more technologically excellent as is F1, and because their cars are even closer to road cars, I don't see any negative aspects, except of the costs.

[Jordan191]

erm all NASCAR needs to do is release the steanglehold they have Hemi in and Toyota would be smoked. The problem is the money needed would cause EXACTLY what Ross predicts would happen.

Anyone who thinks TRD entering NASCAR is a good thing for the sport IN THE MANNER THAT THEY APPEAR TO BE DOING IT, is seriously deluded

[stenney]

Originally posted by joriswouters

Basically you say that the F1story will also happen in NASCAR. And you see in F1 that the costs are way too high. BUT, NASCAR can that way become more technologically excellent as is F1, and because their cars are even closer to road cars, I don't see any negative aspects, except of the costs.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. I am not interested in NASCAR's idea of one race car fits all. There is so little technology in NASCAR, if some technology raises the costs that might be good. Let the manufactures build cars within a less restrictive template and race the cars that they sell to the public. Allow some innovation after all.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Jordan191
erm all NASCAR needs to do is release the steanglehold they have Hemi in and Toyota would be smoked. The problem is the money needed would cause EXACTLY what Ross predicts would happen.

Anyone who thinks TRD entering NASCAR is a good thing for the sport IN THE MANNER THAT THEY APPEAR TO BE DOING IT, is seriously deluded

The Toyota engine is, from what I have read, similar to the Chrysler engine used in NASCAR in many respects.

[Megatron]

I think I may have an answer as to why the Petty Dodge was allowed as late as 1985.

Heres what Tim Brewer, long time employee at Jr Johnson, said about the change in wheebase. "The motor companies were starting to put in some serious money at the time and you had to respect their wishes. If they were going to come in an fund a program, they didn't want you riding around in a 1977 or 1978 Monte Carlo, they wanted riding around a new Buick Regal". Thats from a NASCAR video I bought years ago.

So it was teh auto companies who were doing the new cars, and since Dodge had ZERO amount of support for Arrington, perhaps a blind eye was turned as he was A) an independent B) posed no threat to anyone in the top 15, C) A Chrysler fan, BIG Chrysler fan. Thats the only thing I can think of.

I do know what buddy FINALLY stopped running those Dodges, and it wasn't because he was tired of running in the back in a Dodge, he could equally run in the back in a Ford or Chevy or whatever (he went to Ford after 1985). It was because he simply couldn't find the rebuild parts for the engine anymore. Maybe he raided the Petty supply until it was deluted? Who knows?