Hi,
I`m currently doing a research on the Grenzlandring , the oval-shaped race track in Wegberg/Western Germany used between 1948 and 1952 (maybe later this year or, more probably in 2004, I can tell you some things about this track that are still unknown as far as the web and various threads in TNF are concerned). But for today I need your help concerning german sportscar driver and motorsport functionary Emil 'Teddy' Vorster (1910-1976). My information collected so far mainly stems from R. Schumanns book Motorsport in Deutschland 1945-1955 and some small contemporary newspaper reports. Vorster was a industrialist from Rheydt (today a part of the city of Moenchengladbach and not far from Wegberg), started racing in the 1930ties and was one of the prime movers in restarting motorsport in germany after WW2. After the 1947 season German mag “Das Auto” called him the most successful driver of all classes (there was no official championship). At the end of 1947 he retired his old MG for a spectacular streamlined AFM sportscar with which he contested the 1100ccm sportscar championships in 1948, narrowly loosing out to Petermax Müller, and 1949 (pictures of this car are already shown in the German f1-welt.com-forum, but since this is my first post in any forum I would like to try my first picture-link in a later post ...). Teddy Vorster is supposed to have retired after a severe accident at the Schottenring in autumn 1949, but stayed at the scene until the seventies in various national and international motorsport organisations (for example as president of the DMV, Deutscher Motorsport Verband). And he was the prime mover behind the highspeed-Grenzlandring, not far from his hometown, whre races were held until the dreadful accident in the Formula 2-race 1952 that killed 14 spectators. Vorster also seems to have led a very active private or better: social life, was married to an actress (his fourth and last wife, to be precise, who I met some weeks ago – unfortunately she can’t remember much) and entrusted famous architect Bernhard Pfau from Duesseldorf with building his house, the textile factory he owned, and also some tribunes at the Grenzlandring.
So far, some rough facts indeed, but maybe someone of the TNF community can add more precise information, especially concerning the pre-war years?
Thanks a lot
eukie
Emil 'Teddy' Vorster
Started by
eukie
, Nov 16 2003 09:11
53 replies to this topic
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#2
uechtel
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Posted 16 November 2003 - 10:57
At the moment I can not add something to the text (you have already written more than I know about Vorster), only a few pictures:
The car on the trailer (No. 34) is said to be Vorster´s, so I think he is one of the persons on the picture. Photo was taken on the road to Nürburgring, most probably in 1939
Vorster´s streamliner at Berlin in 1949
Vorster´s AFM midget at the start at Schotten in 1949...
...and a little later after the crash
At the moment I am doing an update on my AFM story and Vorster will play some role in that so more information welcome to me, too!
The car on the trailer (No. 34) is said to be Vorster´s, so I think he is one of the persons on the picture. Photo was taken on the road to Nürburgring, most probably in 1939
Vorster´s streamliner at Berlin in 1949
Vorster´s AFM midget at the start at Schotten in 1949...
...and a little later after the crash
At the moment I am doing an update on my AFM story and Vorster will play some role in that so more information welcome to me, too!
#3
Michael Müller
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Posted 16 November 2003 - 11:25
Believe the "Schumann bible" is in fact the most comprehensive source for Teddy Vorster. In all of Europe directly after the war the active racing drivers could be divided in 2 categories - with money and without money, and the strange thing is that most of the "with-money-ers" could rely on textile industry...! Contrary to heavy and machinery industry the textile factories did not only made good businesses in wartimes, but also directly after the war there was extremely high demand for their goods. There's also the story that Egon Brütsch paid nearly all parts needed for his Maserati Special with lady nylons manufactured by him, and also Westenrieder, who build the car, was reportedly paid with this secondary currency (primary currency in Germany then was Chesterfield).
No misunderstanding, this is nothing negative about Vorster, Brütsch, Sterzi, Marzotti(s), Dusio, Whitehead, and all the others, but only a given fact.
No misunderstanding, this is nothing negative about Vorster, Brütsch, Sterzi, Marzotti(s), Dusio, Whitehead, and all the others, but only a given fact.
#4
eukie
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Posted 16 November 2003 - 15:34
Thanks to the dependable experts on early-postwar german motorsport. Just to add a little further information, here`s a newspaper-report I found in the town-archive of Wegberg (where I have looked through a huge collection of Grenzlandring documents ...). Unfortunately the name of the newspaper is not given, only the date (16.09.1950):
1933 fuhr er mit einer Mannschaft als ‚Sendbote der Stadt Rheydt’ nach Tannenberg. Schon in Duesseldorf musste er zurückbleiben, weil er einen Zustammenstoss hatte. Dann raste er, vom Ehrgeiz gepackt, allein wieder hinter der Mannschaft her und hatte sie in Berlin bereits eingeholt. Da sei er auf die Idee gekommen, sich dem Motorsport zu widmen. Die sportlichen Daten auf seinem Weg in aller Kürze: 1934 Zuverlaessigkeitsfahrer einer Motorfirma, 1935 erstes Rennen in Hohensieburg und dort gleich ‚Erster’. Als Ausweisfahrer, ohne jeden Pfennig Geld ganz auf sich und seinen Fiat angewiesen, half ihm jener Optimismus weiter, mit dem er auch heute noch die Faeden des Grenzlandringes in der Hand haelt. 1936 Sieger im Koelner Stadtwald und in Hohensieburg, 1937 Eifelrennen, 1938 machte er den ‚großen Bergpreis Deutschlands’ und darueberhinaus machte er 1938-39 in der großen Tour Luettich-Rom-Luettich seinen Namen noch bekannter. Dann schob sich der Krieg dazwischen. Und das Jahr 1947 sah ihn nach dem Hockenheimer Rennen als den erfolgreichsten Sportfahrer.
„ohne jeden Pfennig Geld“ („without any money“) – some understatement, I suppose ...
So for his early career it might be useful to browse reports or results of german sportscar races or hillclimbs in the thirties; the article mentions: Hohensyburg 1935 + 1936, Cologne Stadtwald 1936, Nueburgring Eifelrennen 1937, Grosser Bergpreis of Germany 1938, and, maybe more a long-distance run, the Liege-Rome-Liege 1938 + 1939. Has anybody the results of these events at hand?
uechtel: thanks for the pics! As to the AFM-streamliner: do you (or anybody else, of course) know some details about a driver named Günter Nonninger ? He must have driven the car in some 1950/51 events. I know him quite well, and he gave me some contemporary photos of the car (some taken in his rural backyard!). I suspect you might be interested in these pics? I have not scanned them yet, but I will in the next days. Can you find Nonninger in the programmes or result-tables of that time (I only have hin in the Grenzlandring-Rennen 1950).
eukie
1933 fuhr er mit einer Mannschaft als ‚Sendbote der Stadt Rheydt’ nach Tannenberg. Schon in Duesseldorf musste er zurückbleiben, weil er einen Zustammenstoss hatte. Dann raste er, vom Ehrgeiz gepackt, allein wieder hinter der Mannschaft her und hatte sie in Berlin bereits eingeholt. Da sei er auf die Idee gekommen, sich dem Motorsport zu widmen. Die sportlichen Daten auf seinem Weg in aller Kürze: 1934 Zuverlaessigkeitsfahrer einer Motorfirma, 1935 erstes Rennen in Hohensieburg und dort gleich ‚Erster’. Als Ausweisfahrer, ohne jeden Pfennig Geld ganz auf sich und seinen Fiat angewiesen, half ihm jener Optimismus weiter, mit dem er auch heute noch die Faeden des Grenzlandringes in der Hand haelt. 1936 Sieger im Koelner Stadtwald und in Hohensieburg, 1937 Eifelrennen, 1938 machte er den ‚großen Bergpreis Deutschlands’ und darueberhinaus machte er 1938-39 in der großen Tour Luettich-Rom-Luettich seinen Namen noch bekannter. Dann schob sich der Krieg dazwischen. Und das Jahr 1947 sah ihn nach dem Hockenheimer Rennen als den erfolgreichsten Sportfahrer.
„ohne jeden Pfennig Geld“ („without any money“) – some understatement, I suppose ...
So for his early career it might be useful to browse reports or results of german sportscar races or hillclimbs in the thirties; the article mentions: Hohensyburg 1935 + 1936, Cologne Stadtwald 1936, Nueburgring Eifelrennen 1937, Grosser Bergpreis of Germany 1938, and, maybe more a long-distance run, the Liege-Rome-Liege 1938 + 1939. Has anybody the results of these events at hand?
uechtel: thanks for the pics! As to the AFM-streamliner: do you (or anybody else, of course) know some details about a driver named Günter Nonninger ? He must have driven the car in some 1950/51 events. I know him quite well, and he gave me some contemporary photos of the car (some taken in his rural backyard!). I suspect you might be interested in these pics? I have not scanned them yet, but I will in the next days. Can you find Nonninger in the programmes or result-tables of that time (I only have hin in the Grenzlandring-Rennen 1950).
eukie
#5
David McKinney
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Posted 16 November 2003 - 18:12
I have notes of his appearances in only three pre-war races:
1936
1st in sportscar race at the Cologne motorcycle meeting (date unknown), possibly in an MG. Second, incidentally, was an Adler driven by future amphibian promoter Hans Trippel
1938
1st in 1500 sportscar class of Grossglockner hillclimb 28/8 at the wheel of a BMW. Second this time was Arthur Rosenhammer, also in a BMW
5th in 1500 sportcar race at the first car meeting at Hockenheim (16/10). Winner was Ralph Roese from Walter Assenheimer, Rosenhammer, G Odendahl and Vorster. Assenheimer was in an MG, everyone else in BMWs
1936
1st in sportscar race at the Cologne motorcycle meeting (date unknown), possibly in an MG. Second, incidentally, was an Adler driven by future amphibian promoter Hans Trippel
1938
1st in 1500 sportscar class of Grossglockner hillclimb 28/8 at the wheel of a BMW. Second this time was Arthur Rosenhammer, also in a BMW
5th in 1500 sportcar race at the first car meeting at Hockenheim (16/10). Winner was Ralph Roese from Walter Assenheimer, Rosenhammer, G Odendahl and Vorster. Assenheimer was in an MG, everyone else in BMWs
#6
Marcor
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 00:42
Vorster in my records.
1)- Feldbergrennen, October, 6th, 1935
Ausweisfahrers, sport 1100 cc, 1st, Fiat, 9m 23s 2
2)- Feldbergrennen, September 27, 1936
Sport 1100 cc, 3rd, MG, 8m 57s
3)- Liège - Rome -Liège, August 1938
Odendahl / Vorster, 36th, Opel 1488 cc
4)- Grossglockner, Bergpreis von Deutschland, August 28th, 1938
Sport 1500 cc, 1st, BMW, 29m 05s
5)- Rund um Schotten, July 7th, 1939
Sport 1100 cc, 2nd, MG, 48m 34s 3
==> 3 points in the Grossdeutsche Sportwagenmeisterschaft
6)- Liège - Rome - Liège, August 1939
G. Odendahl / E. Vorster, 37th, Opel 1488 cc
About Hockenheim 1938, I only have the 1st third of each class.
I just knew Ralph Röse won the 1500 cc Sport class at Köln in 1936 (no date).
1)- Feldbergrennen, October, 6th, 1935
Ausweisfahrers, sport 1100 cc, 1st, Fiat, 9m 23s 2
2)- Feldbergrennen, September 27, 1936
Sport 1100 cc, 3rd, MG, 8m 57s
3)- Liège - Rome -Liège, August 1938
Odendahl / Vorster, 36th, Opel 1488 cc
4)- Grossglockner, Bergpreis von Deutschland, August 28th, 1938
Sport 1500 cc, 1st, BMW, 29m 05s
5)- Rund um Schotten, July 7th, 1939
Sport 1100 cc, 2nd, MG, 48m 34s 3
==> 3 points in the Grossdeutsche Sportwagenmeisterschaft
6)- Liège - Rome - Liège, August 1939
G. Odendahl / E. Vorster, 37th, Opel 1488 cc
About Hockenheim 1938, I only have the 1st third of each class.
I just knew Ralph Röse won the 1500 cc Sport class at Köln in 1936 (no date).
#7
uechtel
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 17:30
Originally posted by eukie
1933 fuhr er mit einer Mannschaft als ‚Sendbote der Stadt Rheydt’ nach Tannenberg. Schon in Duesseldorf musste er zurückbleiben, weil er einen Zustammenstoss hatte. Dann raste er, vom Ehrgeiz gepackt, allein wieder hinter der Mannschaft her und hatte sie in Berlin bereits eingeholt. Da sei er auf die Idee gekommen, sich dem Motorsport zu widmen. Die sportlichen Daten auf seinem Weg in aller Kürze: 1934 Zuverlaessigkeitsfahrer einer Motorfirma, 1935 erstes Rennen in Hohensieburg und dort gleich ‚Erster’. Als Ausweisfahrer, ohne jeden Pfennig Geld ganz auf sich und seinen Fiat angewiesen, half ihm jener Optimismus weiter, mit dem er auch heute noch die Faeden des Grenzlandringes in der Hand haelt. 1936 Sieger im Koelner Stadtwald und in Hohensieburg, 1937 Eifelrennen, 1938 machte er den ‚großen Bergpreis Deutschlands’ und darueberhinaus machte er 1938-39 in der großen Tour Luettich-Rom-Luettich seinen Namen noch bekannter. Dann schob sich der Krieg dazwischen. Und das Jahr 1947 sah ihn nach dem Hockenheimer Rennen als den erfolgreichsten Sportfahrer.
Thank you for that. Very interesting!
uechtel: thanks for the pics! As to the AFM-streamliner: do you (or anybody else, of course) know some details about a driver named Günter Nonninger ? He must have driven the car in some 1950/51 events.
I know him quite well, and he gave me some contemporary photos of the car (some taken in his rural backyard!). I suspect you might be interested in these pics?
I have not scanned them yet, but I will in the next days. Can you find Nonninger in the programmes or result-tables of that time (I only have hin in the Grenzlandring-Rennen 1950).
Very interesting! Everything is very much appreciated!
Alas I do not have alle the programmes of the Grenzlandring
but he appears in my collection of programmes:1951 Hockenheim
1951 Eifelrennen
both occasions the entry is Günter Nonninger, Lobberich - AFM
that´s all. I didn´t know it was this car. I have also a picture of it with other bodywork for more "twisty" circuits:
(Start of the Eifelpokal 1949)
It´s not easy to sort those 1100 cc AFMs out as Schumann does not cover them very well. So by the way (sorry for hijacking the thread) I have also this picture not yet confirmed, but I think it´s another AFM, probably Gustav Hennig at the Eifelrennen in 1951
#8
eukie
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 21:10
Very useful information on Vorsters pre-war activities, thank you David & Marcor. Just a funny detail: Simons in his BMW328-book mentions Teddy Vorster on page 96 as "Freddy Forster" (in his list of early 328-owners).
uechtel: Gustav Hennig (from Kettwig near Essen) had No. 43 in the Grenzlandring-Rennen 1950 - maybe a further hint that it could be him in your picture, too. In 1949 he ist also listed in the programme of the Grenzlandring-Rennen (sportscars up to 1100 ccm); in the entry-form where the participants were asked to give the year of construction of their cars Hennig listed his AFM as built in 1949. - If you tell me what Grenzlandring-programmes are missing in your collection I may try to copy them for you at my next visit in the town-arcive of Wegberg.
The curious-looking bodywork of Vorsters AFM No. 42 at the Eifelpokal-Rennen 1949 is new to me. Do you know who 'designed' it? Delfosse?
As to Gustav Nonninger: This June he celebrated his 80th birthday. He stills lives near Lobberich (in Leuth, to be precise) which is at the lower Rhine near Kaldenkirchen/Venlo. In his youth, i.e. after WW2, he was part of a bunch of men who did some minor races on motorcycles or cars around their home town. Since the Rheydter Club of Motorsport, mainly founded by Teddy Vorster in 1947, was by far the only relevant motorsport club in the region at these early years (not the least because of their Grenzlandring-activities) he was attracted and joined that club and, after Vorsters retirement, he took over the AFM 1100 ccm sportscar No. 42 with the streamlined body. (Last time I met him I forgot to ask what happened to the car after the sport became to expensive and complicated for Nonninger to continue - he mentioned the Eifelrennen 1951 as his last exploit; I will ask this and further questions next time, I promise). For a living he owned a shop for agricultural products, but also did a lot of other things. Over the last twenty or so years he was very active in fighting for the conservation and preservation ('Denkmalschutz') of his pictoresque hometown Leuth ans his own old house (which is why we met each other).
eukie
uechtel: Gustav Hennig (from Kettwig near Essen) had No. 43 in the Grenzlandring-Rennen 1950 - maybe a further hint that it could be him in your picture, too. In 1949 he ist also listed in the programme of the Grenzlandring-Rennen (sportscars up to 1100 ccm); in the entry-form where the participants were asked to give the year of construction of their cars Hennig listed his AFM as built in 1949. - If you tell me what Grenzlandring-programmes are missing in your collection I may try to copy them for you at my next visit in the town-arcive of Wegberg.
The curious-looking bodywork of Vorsters AFM No. 42 at the Eifelpokal-Rennen 1949 is new to me. Do you know who 'designed' it? Delfosse?
As to Gustav Nonninger: This June he celebrated his 80th birthday. He stills lives near Lobberich (in Leuth, to be precise) which is at the lower Rhine near Kaldenkirchen/Venlo. In his youth, i.e. after WW2, he was part of a bunch of men who did some minor races on motorcycles or cars around their home town. Since the Rheydter Club of Motorsport, mainly founded by Teddy Vorster in 1947, was by far the only relevant motorsport club in the region at these early years (not the least because of their Grenzlandring-activities) he was attracted and joined that club and, after Vorsters retirement, he took over the AFM 1100 ccm sportscar No. 42 with the streamlined body. (Last time I met him I forgot to ask what happened to the car after the sport became to expensive and complicated for Nonninger to continue - he mentioned the Eifelrennen 1951 as his last exploit; I will ask this and further questions next time, I promise). For a living he owned a shop for agricultural products, but also did a lot of other things. Over the last twenty or so years he was very active in fighting for the conservation and preservation ('Denkmalschutz') of his pictoresque hometown Leuth ans his own old house (which is why we met each other).
eukie
#9
Marcor
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 22:52
By chance, I've just found and bought MOTORSPORT IN DEUTSCHLAND 1945-1955 by Reinnald Schumann. Ok my German is very sketchy but it was a real bargain: I've paid 10 Euros....
#10
uechtel
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 23:08
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eukie
[B]Very useful information on Vorsters pre-war activities, thank you David & Marcor. Just a funny detail: Simons in his BMW328-book mentions Teddy Vorster on page 96 as "Freddy Forster" (in his list of early 328-owners).[/quote]
[quote]
Gustav Hennig (from Kettwig near Essen) had No. 43 in the Grenzlandring-Rennen 1950 - maybe a further hint that it could be him in your picture, too.[/quote]
I thought Grenzlandring was run anti-clockwise? But I am not sure about it, the only map I have (1948 programme) does not show the direction.
Yes, I am "quite" sure, that it´s him, but only by deduction. That dark stripe across the front was adopted in 1950 to indicate a sports car entry and maintained at least untl 1951 in German events. Also beneath the radiator I think I can spot the headlights. So the only #43 Sports car entry I have found in my archive is him. But unfortunately there were already season-long numbers in Germany, so it´s not easy to find out the place.
[quote] In 1949 he ist also listed in the programme of the Grenzlandring-Rennen (sportscars up to 1100 ccm); in the entry-form where the participants were asked to give the year of construction of their cars Hennig listed his AFM as built in 1949. - If you tell me what Grenzlandring-programmes are missing in your collection I may try to copy them for you at my next visit in the town-arcive of Wegberg.[quote]
That would be very kind. I have 1948 quite complete and 1949 in fragments. The rest is missing.
[quote]The curious-looking bodywork of Vorsters AFM No. 42 at the Eifelpokal-Rennen 1949 is new to me. Do you know who 'designed' it? Delfosse?[/quote]
"curious-looking"...
Sorry, only the picture.
[quote]As to Gustav Nonninger: This June he celebrated his 80th birthday. He stills lives near Lobberich (in Leuth, to be precise) which is at the lower Rhine near Kaldenkirchen/Venlo. In his youth, i.e. after WW2, he was part of a bunch of men who did some minor races on motorcycles or cars around their home town. Since the Rheydter Club of Motorsport, mainly founded by Teddy Vorster in 1947, was by far the only relevant motorsport club in the region at these early years (not the least because of their Grenzlandring-activities) he was attracted and joined that club and, after Vorsters retirement, he took over the AFM 1100 ccm sportscar No. 42 with the streamlined body.[/quote]
Aha. Schumann says the car was handed to Heeks after Vorster´s retirment. At least I have a report, that Heeks drove it at the Grenzlandring in 1949.
[quote] (Last time I met him I forgot to ask what happened to the car after the sport became to expensive and complicated for Nonninger to continue - he mentioned the Eifelrennen 1951 as his last exploit; I will ask this and further questions next time, I promise). For a living he owned a shop for agricultural products, but also did a lot of other things. Over the last twenty or so years he was very active in fighting for the conservation and preservation ('Denkmalschutz') of his pictoresque hometown Leuth ans his own old house (which is why we met each other).[/quote]
It´s good to see, that some drivers from these great times still around. They have always some good stories from the past!
[B]Very useful information on Vorsters pre-war activities, thank you David & Marcor. Just a funny detail: Simons in his BMW328-book mentions Teddy Vorster on page 96 as "Freddy Forster" (in his list of early 328-owners).[/quote]
[quote]
Gustav Hennig (from Kettwig near Essen) had No. 43 in the Grenzlandring-Rennen 1950 - maybe a further hint that it could be him in your picture, too.[/quote]
I thought Grenzlandring was run anti-clockwise? But I am not sure about it, the only map I have (1948 programme) does not show the direction.
Yes, I am "quite" sure, that it´s him, but only by deduction. That dark stripe across the front was adopted in 1950 to indicate a sports car entry and maintained at least untl 1951 in German events. Also beneath the radiator I think I can spot the headlights. So the only #43 Sports car entry I have found in my archive is him. But unfortunately there were already season-long numbers in Germany, so it´s not easy to find out the place.
[quote] In 1949 he ist also listed in the programme of the Grenzlandring-Rennen (sportscars up to 1100 ccm); in the entry-form where the participants were asked to give the year of construction of their cars Hennig listed his AFM as built in 1949. - If you tell me what Grenzlandring-programmes are missing in your collection I may try to copy them for you at my next visit in the town-arcive of Wegberg.[quote]
That would be very kind. I have 1948 quite complete and 1949 in fragments. The rest is missing.
[quote]The curious-looking bodywork of Vorsters AFM No. 42 at the Eifelpokal-Rennen 1949 is new to me. Do you know who 'designed' it? Delfosse?[/quote]
"curious-looking"...
Sorry, only the picture.
[quote]As to Gustav Nonninger: This June he celebrated his 80th birthday. He stills lives near Lobberich (in Leuth, to be precise) which is at the lower Rhine near Kaldenkirchen/Venlo. In his youth, i.e. after WW2, he was part of a bunch of men who did some minor races on motorcycles or cars around their home town. Since the Rheydter Club of Motorsport, mainly founded by Teddy Vorster in 1947, was by far the only relevant motorsport club in the region at these early years (not the least because of their Grenzlandring-activities) he was attracted and joined that club and, after Vorsters retirement, he took over the AFM 1100 ccm sportscar No. 42 with the streamlined body.[/quote]
Aha. Schumann says the car was handed to Heeks after Vorster´s retirment. At least I have a report, that Heeks drove it at the Grenzlandring in 1949.
[quote] (Last time I met him I forgot to ask what happened to the car after the sport became to expensive and complicated for Nonninger to continue - he mentioned the Eifelrennen 1951 as his last exploit; I will ask this and further questions next time, I promise). For a living he owned a shop for agricultural products, but also did a lot of other things. Over the last twenty or so years he was very active in fighting for the conservation and preservation ('Denkmalschutz') of his pictoresque hometown Leuth ans his own old house (which is why we met each other).[/quote]
It´s good to see, that some drivers from these great times still around. They have always some good stories from the past!
#11
uechtel
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 23:21
Originally posted by Marcor
By chance, I've just found and bought MOTORSPORT IN DEUTSCHLAND 1945-1955 by Reinnald Schumann. Ok my German is very sketchy but it was a real bargain: I've paid 10 Euros....
Sheer dumping! I paid 25 EUR for the new one in 1993. And I know other people here around who are desperately looking for one...
#12
Michael Müller
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 08:22
That's really cheap, I paid €UR 17,30 at eBay, "as new" condition. Can only recommend to check German eBay from time to time.
#13
eukie
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 20:46
sorry uechtel - small misunderstanding: I did not mean that your picture of Hennig was taken at the Grenzlandring. I just wanted to hint at the identical numbers. And indeed the Grenzlandring was mainly run anti-clockwise, but I remember to have read somewhere in my material that they also tried it the other way round - I have to check that.
Time to show you some pictures of the ex-Vorster AFM in Günter Nonningers backyard - just a footnote in motorsport history, but maybe also a illustration of the spirit of the post-war times.
And the same car without the streamlined bodywork:
It`s right that Heeks drove the car to victory in the 1949 Grenzlandringrennen, shortly after Vorsters retirement. But as far as I remember he then concentrated on Formula 2, partly with another Ex-Vorster-AFM, the former Kleinstrennwagen.
It seems to me that the man who designed the streamliner's bodywork - Curt Delfosse - was an interesting man, too. Maybe worth another thread, not least because the attention of TNF-members in the New World maybe required. I think I'll try one!
Time to show you some pictures of the ex-Vorster AFM in Günter Nonningers backyard - just a footnote in motorsport history, but maybe also a illustration of the spirit of the post-war times.
And the same car without the streamlined bodywork:
It`s right that Heeks drove the car to victory in the 1949 Grenzlandringrennen, shortly after Vorsters retirement. But as far as I remember he then concentrated on Formula 2, partly with another Ex-Vorster-AFM, the former Kleinstrennwagen.
It seems to me that the man who designed the streamliner's bodywork - Curt Delfosse - was an interesting man, too. Maybe worth another thread, not least because the attention of TNF-members in the New World maybe required. I think I'll try one!
#14
dretceterini
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 20:59
there is a copy of Motorsport in Deutschland on GERMAN e-bay right now at just 1 EURO!! Artikelnummer: 3567414217
#15
uechtel
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 22:01
Originally posted by dretceterini
there is a copy of Motorsport in Deutschland on GERMAN e-bay right now at just 1 EURO!! Artikelnummer: 3567414217
...things tart always cheap at ebay...
#16
uechtel
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 22:12
Originally posted by eukie
Time to show you some pictures of the ex-Vorster AFM in Günter Nonningers backyard - just a footnote in motorsport history, but maybe also a illustration of the spirit of the post-war times.
It`s right that Heeks drove the car to victory in the 1949 Grenzlandringrennen, shortly after Vorsters retirement. But as far as I remember he then concentrated on Formula 2, partly with another Ex-Vorster-AFM, the former Kleinstrennwagen.
Yes, he used the second AFM monoposto, later even replaced by a newer model. Seems like he bought all of Vorster´s stuff when he lost interest in active racing after his crash in 1949.
#17
Michael Müller
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Posted 19 November 2003 - 09:00
And even worldwide shipping...! One bid from the US already there.Originally posted by dretceterini
there is a copy of Motorsport in Deutschland on GERMAN e-bay right now at just 1 EURO!! Artikelnummer: 3567414217
But careful, prices for rare books always start at €UR 1, but go up heavily in the last hour before closing...
#18
uechtel
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Posted 19 November 2003 - 22:36
Originally posted by eukie
Time to show you some pictures of the ex-Vorster AFM in Günter Nonningers backyard - just a footnote in motorsport history, but maybe also a illustration of the spirit of the post-war times.
And the same car without the streamlined bodywork:
So if all those pictures were taken in his backyard he must have played a little bit with the bodywork variants and there must have been enough time between the shots to rebody the car. Did he do this just to see how the car looks in the other clothing or did he actually use both variants?
#19
eukie
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Posted 20 November 2003 - 20:58
I will ask him next time I`ll meet him (in the middle of december, I hope). According to the track characters and to his pictures I think he used the streamlined body on the highspeed-tracks Grenzlandring and Hockenheim, whereas the Nürburgring pictures show the car without it.
Here`s a link to a local newspaper report on Nonninger`s 80th birthday: http://www.nettetal-...9-nonninger.htm
Here`s a link to a local newspaper report on Nonninger`s 80th birthday: http://www.nettetal-...9-nonninger.htm
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#20
uechtel
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Posted 20 November 2003 - 22:25
very kind. And my late congratulations!
I also wonder where the obligatory passenger seat is placed in there. After all it is a sports car!
I also wonder where the obligatory passenger seat is placed in there. After all it is a sports car!
#21
eukie
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Posted 22 November 2003 - 17:57
Just as much a "twoseater" as most of our modern sportscars ...
But since this was meant to be a Teddy Vorster thread: Yesterday I received a brochure made by the Rheydter Club für Motorsport (RCM) in 1998 with some more info on Vorster. After founding and presiding the RCM in 1947 he became president of the DMV / Deutscher Motorsportverband (1962-1975), as successor of Hans Stuck. As such he was also vice-president of the FIM. In his later years he told a newspaper that he (as a business man and a motorsport functionary) has travelled all the countries of the world with the exception of communist China ... Of course he received the "Bundesverdienstkreuz" and other honours.
Here`s a picture (again the "Nonninger-collection") of Vorster in white trenchcoat taken at the Grenzlandring, possibly in 1952 ...
... and this is a photocopy (sorry for the poor quality, I`m still looking for better portraits) included in the aforementioned RCM-brochure, showing Vorster in his later years:
But since this was meant to be a Teddy Vorster thread: Yesterday I received a brochure made by the Rheydter Club für Motorsport (RCM) in 1998 with some more info on Vorster. After founding and presiding the RCM in 1947 he became president of the DMV / Deutscher Motorsportverband (1962-1975), as successor of Hans Stuck. As such he was also vice-president of the FIM. In his later years he told a newspaper that he (as a business man and a motorsport functionary) has travelled all the countries of the world with the exception of communist China ... Of course he received the "Bundesverdienstkreuz" and other honours.
Here`s a picture (again the "Nonninger-collection") of Vorster in white trenchcoat taken at the Grenzlandring, possibly in 1952 ...
... and this is a photocopy (sorry for the poor quality, I`m still looking for better portraits) included in the aforementioned RCM-brochure, showing Vorster in his later years:
#22
uechtel
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Posted 23 November 2003 - 15:53
Very nice picture showing the eight exhaust pipes, that were necessary because of the three valve (1x inlet 2 x outlet) cylinder head of the AFM engine.Originally posted by eukie
[B]Just as much a "twoseater" as most of our modern sportscars ...
#23
eukie
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Posted 29 November 2003 - 20:39
Two more pictures of AFM No.42 in 1951, the ex-Vorster-car now in the hands of G. Nonninger. The first one was taken in the Hockenheim "paddock", with Assenheimer`s truck in the background:
Note the extended exhaust pipe at the side - according to Nonninger this had to be done after the car failed scrutineering, and therefore at night Nonningers bunch "transferred" a fallpipe from a house in the Hockenheim suburbs ...
The second picture shows the Eifelrennen "paddock" at the Nürburgring. The car in front seems to be No.42 without the streamlined body - can anyone with a programme identify car No.45?
And finally something for the yellow-press: http://www.kinosessel.de/lommel.htm
Ruth Lommel is Vorster's (last) wife. For months I'm trying to get the book she wrote on her seemingly colourful marriage with him - German libraries are working as fast as they can ... She met him in the 1950s through her brother Joachim who mas a modest racer - until now the only hint at him I could find was in the book "Lückendorfer Bergrennen" by J. Kießlich, Lemgo 2002, pp 59-62 - he was second in the Motorbikes up to 500 ccm class of the Zittauer Stadtrennen 1936. Has anybody some more info on Joachim Lommel ?
Note the extended exhaust pipe at the side - according to Nonninger this had to be done after the car failed scrutineering, and therefore at night Nonningers bunch "transferred" a fallpipe from a house in the Hockenheim suburbs ...
The second picture shows the Eifelrennen "paddock" at the Nürburgring. The car in front seems to be No.42 without the streamlined body - can anyone with a programme identify car No.45?
And finally something for the yellow-press: http://www.kinosessel.de/lommel.htm
Ruth Lommel is Vorster's (last) wife. For months I'm trying to get the book she wrote on her seemingly colourful marriage with him - German libraries are working as fast as they can ... She met him in the 1950s through her brother Joachim who mas a modest racer - until now the only hint at him I could find was in the book "Lückendorfer Bergrennen" by J. Kießlich, Lemgo 2002, pp 59-62 - he was second in the Motorbikes up to 500 ccm class of the Zittauer Stadtrennen 1936. Has anybody some more info on Joachim Lommel ?
#24
uechtel
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Posted 30 November 2003 - 03:29
great picture, great story!Originally posted by eukie
[B]Two more pictures of AFM No.42 in 1951, the ex-Vorster-car now in the hands of G. Nonninger. The first one was taken in the Hockenheim "paddock", with Assenheimer`s truck in the background:
Note the extended exhaust pipe at the side - according to Nonninger this had to be done after the car failed scrutineering, and therefore at night Nonningers bunch "transferred" a fallpipe from a house in the Hockenheim suburbs ...
easy one: If it´s Eifelrennen 1951, then it is another long-term participant in this class, Josef Kulzer from Velden in a Fiat (Special).The second picture shows the Eifelrennen "paddock" at the Nürburgring. The car in front seems to be No.42 without the streamlined body - can anyone with a programme identify car No.45?
#25
eukie
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Posted 13 December 2003 - 21:24
Browsing through the Hanstein-Biography by T. Aichele "Der Rennbaron" I happened to find two more pictures of Vorster.
The caption says that the first one was taken at the Aachener Waldrennen in 1948, but names only von Brauchitsch (in the foreground left) and von Hanstein (right) - the man in the middle is without doubt Teddy Vorster (in the meantime I have seen a lot of portraits) - watch the "TV" signet on his overall: a man of wealth and style!
Aichele maintains that the second one shows the grid of the "Kölner Kurs" 1948:
But apart from the fact that the numbers do not correspond with the ones in the entry list of Köln 1948 I also doubt the year of the race. My guess: What about Braunschweig 1947, 1100ccm sportscars? (Race result: 1. Kuhnke, VLK; 2. Vorster, MG; 3. Müller, VW Spezial; 4. Vollmer, RRG). And the man with Nr. 1 in the middle of the front row would be Vorster in his trusty MG of 1936-origin (Nr. 7 Kuhnke, Nr. 5 Müller).
The caption says that the first one was taken at the Aachener Waldrennen in 1948, but names only von Brauchitsch (in the foreground left) and von Hanstein (right) - the man in the middle is without doubt Teddy Vorster (in the meantime I have seen a lot of portraits) - watch the "TV" signet on his overall: a man of wealth and style!
Aichele maintains that the second one shows the grid of the "Kölner Kurs" 1948:
But apart from the fact that the numbers do not correspond with the ones in the entry list of Köln 1948 I also doubt the year of the race. My guess: What about Braunschweig 1947, 1100ccm sportscars? (Race result: 1. Kuhnke, VLK; 2. Vorster, MG; 3. Müller, VW Spezial; 4. Vollmer, RRG). And the man with Nr. 1 in the middle of the front row would be Vorster in his trusty MG of 1936-origin (Nr. 7 Kuhnke, Nr. 5 Müller).
#26
Michael Müller
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Posted 13 December 2003 - 22:10
About the Assenheimer truck:
The owner of a Mercedes-Benz dealership races a BMW special...
The owner of a Mercedes-Benz dealership races a BMW special...
#27
David McKinney
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Posted 13 December 2003 - 22:35
Surely #1 is a Fiat?
So #2 for Vorster?
So #2 for Vorster?
#28
uechtel
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 00:49
Definitely not Köln in 1948 and Aichele´s caption to the photo is pure nonsense (obviously mixing up Pietsch´s 1952 Formula 2 Avus Special with Kuhnke´s VLK, but there never existed any such thing as a Veritas in the 1.1 litre class)
From 1948 onward the 1.1 class had numbers above 40, also the cars look very old-fashioned. Looking at the marks on the track I would have guessed Hockenheim, but the numbers for 1947 don´t fit either (numbers above 10).
But I don´t have the programme of 1948, so perhaps the season-long starting numbers were introduced only afterwards?
No, no - it can´t be. Vorster´s winning streamliner is missing and he already carried No. 42
Another very hot candidate would be Hamburg 1947. Alas I don´t have the programme either, but Kuhnke was definitevly there with his streamline VW Coupe and No. 7 does fit as well
Doug Nye was so friendly to post this pictures some time ago and now it can get quite helpful.
So my theory would be as following:
2 = Vorster / MG
1 = von Müller / Fiat
7 = Kuhnke / VLK-VW
4 = ?
5 = Müller / VW Spezial (but slightly different bodywork than in later years)
9 = ? / Adler
Alas, I have no information at all about Braunschweig to compare whether this would fit, too, but yes, my bet would go for Hamburg. Seems to fit quite well (the markings, the concrete etc.).
Also that No. 4 car looks quite interesting to me...
From 1948 onward the 1.1 class had numbers above 40, also the cars look very old-fashioned. Looking at the marks on the track I would have guessed Hockenheim, but the numbers for 1947 don´t fit either (numbers above 10).
But I don´t have the programme of 1948, so perhaps the season-long starting numbers were introduced only afterwards?
No, no - it can´t be. Vorster´s winning streamliner is missing and he already carried No. 42
Another very hot candidate would be Hamburg 1947. Alas I don´t have the programme either, but Kuhnke was definitevly there with his streamline VW Coupe and No. 7 does fit as well
Doug Nye was so friendly to post this pictures some time ago and now it can get quite helpful.
So my theory would be as following:
2 = Vorster / MG
1 = von Müller / Fiat
7 = Kuhnke / VLK-VW
4 = ?
5 = Müller / VW Spezial (but slightly different bodywork than in later years)
9 = ? / Adler
Alas, I have no information at all about Braunschweig to compare whether this would fit, too, but yes, my bet would go for Hamburg. Seems to fit quite well (the markings, the concrete etc.).
Also that No. 4 car looks quite interesting to me...
#29
uechtel
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 00:55
Originally posted by Michael Müller
About the Assenheimer truck:
The owner of a Mercedes-Benz dealership races a BMW special...
Michael, do you remember what Simons tells:
"Assenheimer was enthusiastic BMW driver but had to quit racing in 1950 (obviously erroneous!), because his Stuttgart-based employer - a manufacturer as well, but of another make - asked him to do so"
This might be also a good explanation why he tried to hide the identity of his car (one of the NSKK roadsters), which he either entered as "BMW Eigenbau" or even as a Veritas on some occasions.
#30
Michael Müller
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 09:01
Markus, yes, of course I remember, however, I am not convinced it is true. Assenheimer was no employee of Daimler-Benz, but owner of a Mercedes garage and dealership, and on the other side in those days the rivalry between these 2 makes - if any - was only very small. It only started slowly when BMW introduced the 501/502, and grew to full extent in the 80's when BMW really started to shake Mercedes' throne. Remember quite well, after various Mercedes models I drove a 7 series then, although my best and closest friend was owner of a Mercedes dealership, and always when I drove along after office hours for a little chat, he seriously asked me not to park the car in front of his premises, but - please - on the other side of the road...! Only late in evenings, after beer no. 21 or 22, it was "...okay, others can also build good cars, but please, never quote me!"
About car #4, I really believe it is a special built on basis of an old BMW 315, compare the radiator.
About car #4, I really believe it is a special built on basis of an old BMW 315, compare the radiator.
#31
Michael Müller
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 09:13
http://www.assenheimer-mulfinger.de/
Interesting, Emil Assenheimer, the father of Walter, founded the company as early as 1911 as offical Benz dealership and garage. Today one of the largest DaimlerChrysler dealers in Germany (the own DC subsidiaries not counted), with Dirk Assenheimer, Walter's son, being CEO.
Interesting, Emil Assenheimer, the father of Walter, founded the company as early as 1911 as offical Benz dealership and garage. Today one of the largest DaimlerChrysler dealers in Germany (the own DC subsidiaries not counted), with Dirk Assenheimer, Walter's son, being CEO.
#32
eukie
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 09:16
As to Assenheimer: there`s still a Assenheimer DB-cardealership in Heilbronn: http://www.assenheimer-mulfinger.de/ - has one of the TNF-members already asked them a few questions ... ?
#33
Holger Merten
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 09:16
Did you drove home after beer no. 2X.Originally posted by Michael Müller
(...)
although my best and closest friend was owner of a Mercedes dealership, and always when I drove along after office hours for a little chat, he seriously asked me not to park the car in front of his premises, but - please - on the other side of the road...! Only late in evenings, after beer no. 21 or 22, it was "...okay, others can also build good cars, but please, never quote me!"
#34
eukie
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 09:16
Two men - same idea ...
#35
eukie
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 09:35
Entry List of the Kölner Kurs 30.05.1948 (as in the official Race Programme):
VI Kleinstrennwagen
1 / R. Belz / / München / Befiata
2 / C. Delfosse / Düsseldorf / DVD Zündapp
3 / W. Komossa / Recklinghausen / Scampolo DKW
4 / J. Lauer / Eppelborn / DKW Eigenbau
5 / H. Lück / Hamburg / BMW Eigenbau
6 / Rosenhauer / Göttingen / BMW
7 / E. Schweppe / Dillenburg / Eigenbau
8 / H. Weiß / Wolfenbüttel / Eigenbau
9 / W. Krabiel / Badenweiler / Eigenbau
XI Sportwagen bis 1100
41 / P. Müller / Velpke / VW Eigenbau
42 / E. Vorster / Rheydt / AFM od. MG
43 / Schroeder / München / Fiat
44 / W. von Müller / München / Fiat Eigenbau
45 / W. Baxmann / Hamburg / Fiat
46 / K. Becker / Berghausen / BMW
47 / R. Faulhaber / Hannover / VW Eigenbau
48 / B. Graetz / Efferen / Graetz Spezial
49 / F. Huschke v.H. / Calenberg / VW
50 / Dr. Kamprath / München-Pas. / AFM
51 / E. Kauertz / Düsseldorf / DKW
52 / K. Kuhnke / Braunschweig / VLK
53 / J. Kulzer / Velden / Fiat
54 / P. Niesen / Langenfeld / Fiat
55 / R. Ringel / Wolfsburg / VW Eigenbau
56 / W. Röder / München / Morgan
57 / E. Stösser / München / Amilcar
58 / G. Vollmer / Kettwig / V-Spezial
XII Sportwagen bis 1500
20 / A. von Falkenhausen / Leonberg / AFM
21 / H. Mölders / Offenburg / Veritas
22 / H. Kathrein / Lorsbach / BMW
25 / H. Glöckler / Frankfurt / Veritas
26. / J. Hummel / Freiburg / Veritas
27 / HG Jäger / Bochum / MG
XIII Rennwagen formelfrei
1 / P. Bittorf / Bad Wildungen / Bugatti
2 / E. Brütsch / Stuttgart / Maserati EB
3 / H. Deutz / Lüdenscheid / Alfa Romeo
4 / K. Kiefer / Honnef / Maserati
XIV Rennwagen Formel 2
1 / H. Holbein / Herrlingen / HH
2 / H. Polensky / Hamburg / Monopol BMW
3 / R. Mall / / Donaueschingen / BMW EB
4 / G. Meier / München / BMW Veritas
XVI Sportwagen bis 2000
1 / H Holbein / Herrlingen / HH
2 / K Kling / Stuttgart / BMW Veritas
6 / T Ulmen / Düsseldorf / Veritas
7 / W Krakau / Peine / BMW
8 / H Hartmann / Dortmund / BMW Veritas
9 / F Klein / Heilbronn / Alfa Romeo SS
10 / H Roth / München / BMW
11 / O Schöpflin / Stuttgart / BMW
12 / R Roese / Mettmann / BMW Veritas
VI Kleinstrennwagen
1 / R. Belz / / München / Befiata
2 / C. Delfosse / Düsseldorf / DVD Zündapp
3 / W. Komossa / Recklinghausen / Scampolo DKW
4 / J. Lauer / Eppelborn / DKW Eigenbau
5 / H. Lück / Hamburg / BMW Eigenbau
6 / Rosenhauer / Göttingen / BMW
7 / E. Schweppe / Dillenburg / Eigenbau
8 / H. Weiß / Wolfenbüttel / Eigenbau
9 / W. Krabiel / Badenweiler / Eigenbau
XI Sportwagen bis 1100
41 / P. Müller / Velpke / VW Eigenbau
42 / E. Vorster / Rheydt / AFM od. MG
43 / Schroeder / München / Fiat
44 / W. von Müller / München / Fiat Eigenbau
45 / W. Baxmann / Hamburg / Fiat
46 / K. Becker / Berghausen / BMW
47 / R. Faulhaber / Hannover / VW Eigenbau
48 / B. Graetz / Efferen / Graetz Spezial
49 / F. Huschke v.H. / Calenberg / VW
50 / Dr. Kamprath / München-Pas. / AFM
51 / E. Kauertz / Düsseldorf / DKW
52 / K. Kuhnke / Braunschweig / VLK
53 / J. Kulzer / Velden / Fiat
54 / P. Niesen / Langenfeld / Fiat
55 / R. Ringel / Wolfsburg / VW Eigenbau
56 / W. Röder / München / Morgan
57 / E. Stösser / München / Amilcar
58 / G. Vollmer / Kettwig / V-Spezial
XII Sportwagen bis 1500
20 / A. von Falkenhausen / Leonberg / AFM
21 / H. Mölders / Offenburg / Veritas
22 / H. Kathrein / Lorsbach / BMW
25 / H. Glöckler / Frankfurt / Veritas
26. / J. Hummel / Freiburg / Veritas
27 / HG Jäger / Bochum / MG
XIII Rennwagen formelfrei
1 / P. Bittorf / Bad Wildungen / Bugatti
2 / E. Brütsch / Stuttgart / Maserati EB
3 / H. Deutz / Lüdenscheid / Alfa Romeo
4 / K. Kiefer / Honnef / Maserati
XIV Rennwagen Formel 2
1 / H. Holbein / Herrlingen / HH
2 / H. Polensky / Hamburg / Monopol BMW
3 / R. Mall / / Donaueschingen / BMW EB
4 / G. Meier / München / BMW Veritas
XVI Sportwagen bis 2000
1 / H Holbein / Herrlingen / HH
2 / K Kling / Stuttgart / BMW Veritas
6 / T Ulmen / Düsseldorf / Veritas
7 / W Krakau / Peine / BMW
8 / H Hartmann / Dortmund / BMW Veritas
9 / F Klein / Heilbronn / Alfa Romeo SS
10 / H Roth / München / BMW
11 / O Schöpflin / Stuttgart / BMW
12 / R Roese / Mettmann / BMW Veritas
#36
uechtel
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 10:08
Eukie, as I said, Köln is definitely a no-go. I have pictures of the day showing that it was wet, the marks on the grid were much smaller and the track itself was paved and much smoother.
I really think that it has to be one of the early races (more such cars as Vorster´s Special and other VW derivates appearing in 1948). And Hamburg has been mismatched with Köln a number of times in various books, so to me it is very likely that the picture is from there.
Of course was we need is more entry lists from 1947, the only one I have is from Hockenheim.
I think we can agree, that there is a true kernel...
Perhaps it was not the Mercedes company who asked, but he learned by himself, that it is not good to drive cars of a different make of what you are selling. And I don´t think it matters whether BMW was an active company or not. The Touring Roadster was certainly one of the few real dream cars in Germany, itself an attck on Mercedes prestige. All they had to affer at the time were the 170 V and the luxury version 170 S.
And thank you for the link to the Assenheimer company. Alas, looking at their page, they seem to have not much interest in history.
Yes of course it looks very similar. But don´t forget this is 1100 cc class! So there has to be some other engine inside. So maybe a 309 or a 303 from around 1934. Those models looked very similar to the 315, but there were no sports variants.
I really think that it has to be one of the early races (more such cars as Vorster´s Special and other VW derivates appearing in 1948). And Hamburg has been mismatched with Köln a number of times in various books, so to me it is very likely that the picture is from there.
Of course was we need is more entry lists from 1947, the only one I have is from Hockenheim.
Markus, yes, of course I remember, however, I am not convinced it is true.
I think we can agree, that there is a true kernel...
Perhaps it was not the Mercedes company who asked, but he learned by himself, that it is not good to drive cars of a different make of what you are selling. And I don´t think it matters whether BMW was an active company or not. The Touring Roadster was certainly one of the few real dream cars in Germany, itself an attck on Mercedes prestige. All they had to affer at the time were the 170 V and the luxury version 170 S.
And thank you for the link to the Assenheimer company. Alas, looking at their page, they seem to have not much interest in history.
About car #4, I really believe it is a special built on basis of an old BMW 315, compare the radiator.
Yes of course it looks very similar. But don´t forget this is 1100 cc class! So there has to be some other engine inside. So maybe a 309 or a 303 from around 1934. Those models looked very similar to the 315, but there were no sports variants.
#37
Michael Müller
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Posted 14 December 2003 - 10:50
May be you are right with Assenheimer and the Mercedes-BMW problematic. My friend (the one with the Mercedes garage) had similar problems during his active rallye period end of the 60's. The garage was founded by his father in 1945, and they had been DKW dealers from 1948 or 1949 onwards. In the sixties they added Mercedes-Benz, and a few years later they dropped the DKW-Audi agency (this was the period of the AutoUnion takeover by Daimer-Benz, and then by Volkswagen). He then sold his very competitive Audi Super 90 and tried rallying a Mercedes 280S which was not a good idea in fact. Also his elder brother, who was running a Brabham BT16 in Formula 3 until his fatal accident in 1968, decided to swap the Ford engine against an "own make" DKW engine, a similar one as he had in his hill climb DKW Junior.
Another reason for Assenheimer to stop racing may be was his age, how old was he in 1950 if his father founded the company in 1911? And don't forget, at that time the German economy was really booming, so probably business left no time anymore for racing.
And about the BMW, don't believe it was a 4 cylinder 309, may be a 303 engine was used, or - more probably - a 315 engine with a 303 crankshaft to reduce the stroke.
Another reason for Assenheimer to stop racing may be was his age, how old was he in 1950 if his father founded the company in 1911? And don't forget, at that time the German economy was really booming, so probably business left no time anymore for racing.
And about the BMW, don't believe it was a 4 cylinder 309, may be a 303 engine was used, or - more probably - a 315 engine with a 303 crankshaft to reduce the stroke.
#39
eukie
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Posted 27 February 2004 - 09:17
Time to make an important correction concerning the end of Vorsters career as a driver.
Quote from my first post in this thread - this is our knowledge so far as stated in the "Schumann"-book. But I´m afraid not only in this very case Schumann depends too much on "Das Auto" without cross-reference in other sources.
But browsing through another contemporary magazine, "Der Motorsport", you can find a different story. First of all Vorster does not seem to have been injured all too much at Schotten because after his crash he drove another race at the same meeting, finishing fourth in the 1100cc sportscar-class. Schumann has that, too. But then neither "Das Auto" or Schumann mention the Aachener Waldrennen on July 24th 1949, six weeks later, Kleinstrennwagen and SC 1100cc only, Emil Vorster again among the participants. And this is what happened: In the first lap Vorster lost control while trying to overhaul, he slid off the track and into the spectators, of whom one was killed and at least three were injured.
This is important in various hindsights: First of all Aachen and not Schotten seems to have been Vorsters last race, and the reason for his retirement becomes a little bit clearer now. Of course it remains speculation, but he could have been personally touched by this drama, at least it sadly topped his streak of very bad luck during 1949 and might have made his decision to concentrate on organizing the Grenzlandring-Meetings and on his work in several motorsport organisations a lot "easier".
But moreover this accident sparked a (internal, no press reports, of course) discussion on the safety standards of streetraces in Postwar-Germany. Many observers already warned that a much more severe accident was only a question of time, and finally in 1952 they were proved to be right - and cynical fate chose Vorster`s Grenzlandring-Meeting to be the one.
For the records (as there are none in the Schumann-"bible") :
Kleinstrennwagen see www.formel3guide.com
Sportscars up to 1100cc: 1. Petermax Müller (VW special) 2. Eugen Krings (VW special) 3. Paul Dübbers (AF) DNF: Emil Vorster (AFM), Gottfried Vollmer (VW special) + 3 other retirements
Teddy Vorster is supposed to have retired after a severe accident at the Schottenring in autumn 1949
Quote from my first post in this thread - this is our knowledge so far as stated in the "Schumann"-book. But I´m afraid not only in this very case Schumann depends too much on "Das Auto" without cross-reference in other sources.
But browsing through another contemporary magazine, "Der Motorsport", you can find a different story. First of all Vorster does not seem to have been injured all too much at Schotten because after his crash he drove another race at the same meeting, finishing fourth in the 1100cc sportscar-class. Schumann has that, too. But then neither "Das Auto" or Schumann mention the Aachener Waldrennen on July 24th 1949, six weeks later, Kleinstrennwagen and SC 1100cc only, Emil Vorster again among the participants. And this is what happened: In the first lap Vorster lost control while trying to overhaul, he slid off the track and into the spectators, of whom one was killed and at least three were injured.
This is important in various hindsights: First of all Aachen and not Schotten seems to have been Vorsters last race, and the reason for his retirement becomes a little bit clearer now. Of course it remains speculation, but he could have been personally touched by this drama, at least it sadly topped his streak of very bad luck during 1949 and might have made his decision to concentrate on organizing the Grenzlandring-Meetings and on his work in several motorsport organisations a lot "easier".
But moreover this accident sparked a (internal, no press reports, of course) discussion on the safety standards of streetraces in Postwar-Germany. Many observers already warned that a much more severe accident was only a question of time, and finally in 1952 they were proved to be right - and cynical fate chose Vorster`s Grenzlandring-Meeting to be the one.
For the records (as there are none in the Schumann-"bible") :
Kleinstrennwagen see www.formel3guide.com
Sportscars up to 1100cc: 1. Petermax Müller (VW special) 2. Eugen Krings (VW special) 3. Paul Dübbers (AF) DNF: Emil Vorster (AFM), Gottfried Vollmer (VW special) + 3 other retirements
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#40
Hugo Boecker
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- 702 posts
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Posted 31 May 2004 - 23:48
Originally posted by eukie
Entry List of the Kölner Kurs 30.05.1948 (as in the official Race Programme):
XVI Sportwagen bis 2000
1 / H Holbein / Herrlingen / HH
2 / K Kling / Stuttgart / BMW Veritas
6 / T Ulmen / Düsseldorf / Veritas
7 / W Krakau / Peine / BMW
8 / H Hartmann / Dortmund / BMW Veritas
9 / F Klein / Heilbronn / Alfa Romeo SS
10 / H Roth / München / BMW
11 / O Schöpflin / Stuttgart / BMW
12 / R Roese / Mettmann / BMW Veritas
Car No 8 Hans Hugo Hartmann ex Mercedes Nachwuchsfahrer ?
was he a DNA/DNS
did he more races/entries on the BMW-Veritas.
I think it's the first trace( for me) of one of the least known Silver Arrow Driver.
#41
eukie
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- 247 posts
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Posted 01 June 2004 - 06:59
Interesting ... Of course that`s him, I`ve completely overlooked that. There are some hints in race reports of that time that Hartmann was at the tracks as an interested spectator, maybe also looking for a car, but somewhere in Das Auto (I have to search the article) is also written that he was still a staff member of MB - at least he was regarded to be.
I`ve already collected some info on HH Hartmann (but not that much), and I know that the author of the 2nd part of the Borgward Race History is doing some further research. Maybe, when I have a little bit more time, we should exchange our findings.
I`ve already collected some info on HH Hartmann (but not that much), and I know that the author of the 2nd part of the Borgward Race History is doing some further research. Maybe, when I have a little bit more time, we should exchange our findings.
#42
uechtel
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- 1,970 posts
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Posted 01 June 2004 - 21:38
In the press bulletin he is explicitely mentioned as "startet nicht".Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
[B]
Car No 8 Hans Hugo Hartmann ex Mercedes Nachwuchsfahrer ?
was he a DNA/DNS
Also there is a car No. 4, that practised, but dns. Do you have an idea who that could have been?
I don´t have any "Hartmann" again in my records until Eifelrennen 1952, where Hartmann started for Borgward. Of course that doesn´t automatically mean there weren´t any...did he more races/entries on the BMW-Veritas.
#43
vintageautomobilia
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- 231 posts
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Posted 19 September 2004 - 23:59
Hi,
I'm new to this site. I posted some information about AFM 1100 engines, Cisitalia and etc., but it seems to have been posted as a separate topic, rather than a reply to this "Emil Vorster" site. Please look for my posting.
I have an AFM 1100 engine (motor # N.2.B..). I also own a Cisitalia 202 coupe (chassis # 046) once owned by a Rolf Hartmann of Nurnberg, Germany. Any relation to H. Hartmann mentioned on this site? I am looking for any info about both the AFM 1100 # N.2.B.. and Cisitalia # 046.
Thank you,
Peter Zobian
I'm new to this site. I posted some information about AFM 1100 engines, Cisitalia and etc., but it seems to have been posted as a separate topic, rather than a reply to this "Emil Vorster" site. Please look for my posting.
I have an AFM 1100 engine (motor # N.2.B..). I also own a Cisitalia 202 coupe (chassis # 046) once owned by a Rolf Hartmann of Nurnberg, Germany. Any relation to H. Hartmann mentioned on this site? I am looking for any info about both the AFM 1100 # N.2.B.. and Cisitalia # 046.
Thank you,
Peter Zobian
#44
eukie
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- 247 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 20 September 2004 - 11:08
Hi Peter, for sure you have already found the pictures of the Vorster/Nonninger car I have posted in this thread. I do have some more, only a few and not very different indeed, but maybe of interest, too - at least for you. If you like I can e-mail them (but in the moment I`m very busy at work, so it may take some time before I can dig them out).
As to Hartmann: In my resources there is no hint at a brother of Hans Hugo Hartmann. „Hartmann“ is a quite common name in Germany, and H.H. Hartmann originated from Herdecke / Dortmund - quite a long distance to Nuremberg.
As to Hartmann: In my resources there is no hint at a brother of Hans Hugo Hartmann. „Hartmann“ is a quite common name in Germany, and H.H. Hartmann originated from Herdecke / Dortmund - quite a long distance to Nuremberg.
#45
vintageautomobilia
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- 231 posts
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Posted 21 September 2004 - 19:05
Hello Marco,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I know that Hartmann is a fairly common name, but I was hoping that the connection might be there because of the type of car. I was hoping that H. Hartmann might have had a son (this was 1965 when Rolf Hartmann bought Cisitalia # 046) and that the son was interested in cars because of his Father. Stranger things have happened!
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I know that Hartmann is a fairly common name, but I was hoping that the connection might be there because of the type of car. I was hoping that H. Hartmann might have had a son (this was 1965 when Rolf Hartmann bought Cisitalia # 046) and that the son was interested in cars because of his Father. Stranger things have happened!
#46
vintageautomobilia
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- 231 posts
- Joined: September 04
Member
Posted 10 October 2004 - 19:42
I think I've asked this, but I'll put it up again:
Question #1: Does anyone know the engine numbers on any of the AFM 1100 engines (besides mine)?
Question #2: Does anyone know how many of the AFM 1100 engines still exist today?
Thank you!
Question #1: Does anyone know the engine numbers on any of the AFM 1100 engines (besides mine)?
Question #2: Does anyone know how many of the AFM 1100 engines still exist today?
Thank you!
#47
uechtel
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- 1,970 posts
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Member
Posted 10 October 2004 - 20:19
Speaking just for myself
question 1) - no.
question 2) - no
sorry
question 1) - no.
question 2) - no
sorry
#48
dretceterini
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- 2,991 posts
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Member
Posted 10 October 2004 - 23:25
Peter:
Since you motor is 2B, I would assume that there were 2 versions of the motor; Type A and Type B....but I have no idea how many were made....I would think there were VERY few, and your's might be the only one left.
By the way, do you have any idea how many Ermini 1100 motors were made??
Stu
Since you motor is 2B, I would assume that there were 2 versions of the motor; Type A and Type B....but I have no idea how many were made....I would think there were VERY few, and your's might be the only one left.
By the way, do you have any idea how many Ermini 1100 motors were made??
Stu
#49
Duc-Man
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- 1,394 posts
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Member
Posted 25 January 2016 - 18:01
Once in a while.
This photo popped today up on fb.
Voster is in the second row. #41 is Petermax Müller with his special.
Does anybody know where and when this was taken?
Thanks.
#50
D-Type
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- 9,759 posts
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Member
Posted 25 January 2016 - 20:31
This photo also features in Tobias Aichele's Von Hanstein biography. According to the caption, the car on the right is the VKL, a VW special built by Kurt Kuhnke of Braunschweig, but the caption doesn't say where or when it was.
