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Curt Delfosse


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#1 eukie

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Posted 18 November 2003 - 20:44

An offspring of the Emil 'Teddy' Vorster-thread: Maybe it would be interesting to collect some information about Curt (or: Kurt) Delfosse, who designed Vorster's streamlined AFM-racer:

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Schumann in his book Motorsport in Deutschland 1945-1955 states that Delfosse has also been occupied with designing (race-)boats and a Kleinstrennwagen (German postwar-equivalent for Formula 3) called DVD, with a streamlined body too. At the beginning of the fifties he must have moved to Argentina where we can find him in the result-tables of some sportscar races, mostly driving a Porsche special - sometimes called a "Gordini-Porsche"!?. See: http://forums.atlasf...?threadid=27687 : 1955/8/14 Del Posque: 4th; 1955/9/5: Tres Arroyos: 3td; 1956 Buenos Aires 1000 KM: dnf; 1957 Buenos Aires 1000 KM: 12th; 1958 Buenos Aires 1000 KM: dnf.
Then he moved to the United States. Browsing the www you can find this picture of a car called a DelFosse, a Formula 4 racer (?) with a NSU Sportprinz-motor:

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And finally the net delivers us an obituary in a local american newspaper that reads as follows:
Curt August Delfosse, 86, of Ashland, died Tuesday (July 21, 1998) at Ashland Community Hospital. A private service will be held.
Mr. Delfosse was born May 30, 1912, in Cologne, Germany.
On Feb. 12, 1955, in Argentina, he married Ana I. Hartenau, who survives. They moved to the Rogue Valley 21 years ago from San Diego, Calif.
He earned a degree in engineering from the university in Stuttgart, Germany.
He was a race car driver for European car makers, including Porsche. He built and raced Grand Prix-type cars; he designed the international Formula 4 race car.
In Ashland, he owned a B.P. gas station.
His father's automobile factories built Rohr and Helios cars and also built Germany's first airplanes.
During World War II, Mr. Delfosse served in the German air force. He was a member of the International Federation of Automobiles and the Sports Car Club of America.
He also enjoyed designing boats.
Survivors, in addition to his wife, include a sister, Edita Vanderlyn, Arkansas.
Copyright © interRogue & The Mail Tribune 1998, Medford, Oregon USA

http://www.mailtribu...98/72698n10.htm

I think this is our man! Seems to have been a colourful life. Anybody out there who can add information?

Thank you,
Eukie

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#2 Michael Müller

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Posted 18 November 2003 - 21:03

His father's automobile factories built Rohr and Helios cars and also built Germany's first airplanes.
:confused:

#3 uechtel

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Posted 18 November 2003 - 21:58

AFAIK this honour falls to Hans Grade, who also was in the car business in the early twenties.

Chief designer at Röhr was Joseph Dauben, no mention of any Delfosse in Oswald´s book.

And yes, Curt Delfosse went to Argentina in 1952. According to Boschen / Barth ("Porsche Specials") he bought a 1.5 l Gordini, that had been raced by Fangio in 1947, and implanted a 1.5 litre Porsche engine. Of course everything covered by full enveloping bodywork and his best result was a third at the Buenos Aires 1000 km in 1955.

#4 uechtel

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Posted 18 November 2003 - 22:17

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The only picture I have showing the DVD "in action", again Recklinghausen 1949

#5 Gerr

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 17:48

There is a Delfosse on Ebay at this time:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...9&category=6755

#6 uechtel

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 22:38

more expensive than 1 EUR I´m afraid... :|

#7 eukie

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 20:47

In the meantime I was able to gather some information on Curt Delfosse`s father – and there`s maybe more truth in the early aviation story than Michael Müller thought (and me too, I must admit). And the whole story leads us to Cologne – the town I live in and where I`m passing by his old factory everyday on my way to work – but it is only now that I know this, shame on me!
The book 125 Jahre Automobiles aus Köln – Auto, Motorräder & Flugzeuge by Immo Mikloweit (Cologne 2002) contains some sections on Arthur Delfosse (1883-1956), an engineer and pioneer in various fields, especially aircraft. It states that he built a motorized bike around 1895 (when 15 years old ??) and that he went on constructing and running pacemaker-bikes for bicycle races (is this the correct word for “Schrittmacher” and “Steherrennen”?) :
„Arthur Delfosse konstruierte und baute bereits als Fünfzehnjähriger um 1895 ein Motorrad, sicherlich mit Citorahmen. Der Einfachheit halber nahm er einen französischen Einbaumotor. Von längerer Dauer dürften die Fahrvergnügen wegen des leichten Rahmens nicht gewesen sein. Um die Jahrhundertwende baute er die ersten Schrittmachermaschinen, die er auch erfolgreich selber fuhr. Es begann eine neue Epoche im Radrennsport: die Steherrennen. Hinter seiner Rolle fuhren die weltberühmten Rennfahrer Willi Schmitter und Peter Günter von Sieg zu Sieg“ (p144).
In 1902/03 indeed he started building engines for, let`s say: flying machines, and tested them, too. Remember that Cologne, as far as I know, was one of the centres of early aviation in Germany! The following text states that in 1908 Delfosse himself did fly in one of his machines for 15 minutes, 50m high:
"1902-1903 begann Delfosse als erster Flugmotorenkonstrukteur Kölns überhaupt. Nach den Flügen der Gebrüder Wright begann er schon 1903 mit dem Bau seines ersten Fächermotors für Flugapparate nach eigenen Konstruktionen. Bereits als Fünfzehnjähriger hatte er ein eigenes Motorrad gebastelt. Hierdurch erst im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes in Fahrt gekommen, baute er kurze Zeit später ein Automobil mit einem 3-PS-Astermotor aus Paris. Das war 1898 eine Sensation, nicht nur für Köln. Doch den rastlosen Techniker und Sportler Delfosse hielt es nicht mehr länger auf der Erde. 1902 begann er mit dem Bau von "Motoren für Flugapparate", und schon im nächsten Jahr machte er mit eigener Maschine die ersten Luftsprünge. Als er aus zehn Meter abstürzte, retteten ihn in der Nähe exerzierende Soldaten aus der brennenden Maschine. Bereits 1908 erreichte er bei einem Viertelstundenflug zum ersten Mal die Höhe von fünfzig Metern. ... Immer weiter vervollkommnete er seine Konstruktionen. 1908 kam er mit einer verbesserten Delfosse-Flugmaschine, einem 125 kg schweren Eindecker heraus, dessen Gerüst aus gezogenen Stahlrohren und 28 Quadratmetern Tragflächen bestand. Im Katalog stand: "Eindecker, garantiert fliegend. Gerippe aus nahtlosem Stahlrohr, autogengeschweißt oder Holz, mit Motor-Type 17.500 Mark." Grundlage dieser Flugzeugfabrikation war das Flugmotorenwerk, das kurz vor dem Ersten Weltkrieg nach Köln-Riehl verlegt wurde. Die ersten Flugmotoren, die nach dem Vorbild von Anzani 1902 bei Delfosse gebaut wurden, waren Drei- und Vierzylinder-Fächermotoren, deren Zylinder wie ein Fächer über der Kurbelwelle standen. Sie machten 1.300 U/min und leisteten 24 PS Dauerleistung und 40 PS Höchstleistung. 1908 wurde das Konstruktionsprinzip grundlegend geändert. Aus dem Kölner Flugmotorenwerk wurden nun Stern-Umlaufmotoren in ganz Deutschland sowie ins Ausland geliefert. Bei diesen "Rotatif" genannten Motoren, wohl vom Gnome Prinzip angeregt, drehten sich die sternförmig angeordneten Zylinder mit dem Kurbelgehäuse und mit dem Propeller um die feststehende Achse. Das Maximum an Leistung stellte ein 14-Zylinder-Rotationsmotor sicher, der 90 bis 100 PS leistete, bei dem folglich zwei Siebenzylinder-Sterne hintereinander angeordnet waren. Der Preis hierfür lag bei 12.000 Mark. Zu diesem Motor lieferte das Unternehmen auf Wunsch auch die geeigneten Flugapparate. Viele Flieger, die damals um und über Kölns Butzweilerhof flogen, begnügten sich mit dem Selbsteinbau. Bei Kriegsbeginn 1914 beschäftigte das Motorenwerk von Delfosse etwa 400 Arbeiter.
Für den ersten Eindecker lieferte die Motorenfabrik von Delfosse einen Dreizylinder-Motor mit 24 PS. Die Bleriot-Kopie des eckigen, unbespannten Stahlrohrrumpfes wurde auf der "Kölner Internationalen Flugwoche" am 30. Oktober 1909 und auch auf dem Autosalon 1909 in Brüssel vorgeführt. Das zweite Flugzeug in verbesserter Ausführung mit 125 Leergewicht erhielt den gleichen Delfosse-Motor, während das dritte mit einem vierzylindrigen 50-PS Delfosse-Motor ausgestattet wurde und eine Spitzengeschwindigkeit von 80 km/h erreichte. Im Verlauf des Ersten Weltkrieges stellte Delfosse die Flugmotorenfertigung ein. Nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg stellte er unter anderem in Ehrenfeld Kleinwagen her, wie im Kapitel Automobile nachzulesen ist.“ (p158/159)

1923 the „Kölner Industriewerke“ and Delfosse together founded the Helios Car Company. Maybe the history of this company (only existing until 1927) is available to the TNF-members so I will not bore you with three pages of German text in the aformentioned book – unless somebody requests it.
Still, only sparse info on Curt Delfosse ...

#8 Michael Müller

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 21:40

What I doubted - or better said what I did not know - was that in the Delfosse factory Röhr Automobiles had been built. The Röhr factory was in Ober-Ramstadt near Darmstadt, I know the old plant there quite well, because in the 70's I worked at the Caparol paint factory for some years, and the old Röhr factory besides the train yard was used by us as warehouse.

#9 uechtel

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 22:34

just visit here and search for "Delfosse" with your browser

#10 eukie

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 18:22

Sorry Michael for misinterpreting you! On the other hand there could be a small chance for a Delfosse-Rohr-connection! HG Röhr, the founder of the marque, was born in Uerdingen which is not far from Cologne, and here in Cologne he seems to have been a member of the early aviation-scene, too:
"So ging es auch Hans Gustav Röhr, einem 1895 in Uerdingen geborenen Pionier der Luftfahrt. Schon mit 17 Jahren hatte Röhr sein erstes Flugzeug gebaut. 1918 saß er, zusammen mit Joseph Dauben, in seinem Werk bei Köln und suchte nach einer neuen Tätigkeit. Deutschland durfte sich nicht weiter an der Fliegerei beteiligen. ..." http://www.roehrauto...geschichte.html
At least I would not bet against such a connection ...

uechtel:
So if we knew more about Curt Delfosse maybe we were able to judge if the connection to argentinian aviators marked by Holtzem could have been the reason for him to emigrate to Argentina, right?
Another small piece of the Vorster-Delfosse motorsport-aviation-boatracing-complex. Friedrich Dilthey, who around 1950 successfully contested the German Formula 3 Championship, and who like Vorster originated from Rheydt (another textilefactory-dynasty), did not only race cars but also boats and he was a keen aviator and parachutist, too.

#11 uechtel

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 14:39

Originally posted by eukie
So if we knew more about Curt Delfosse maybe we were able to judge if the connection to argentinian aviators marked by Holtzem could have been the reason for him to emigrate to Argentina, right?


yes, a very obvious thought, but this could also be pure coincidence.

Another small piece of the Vorster-Delfosse motorsport-aviation-boatracing-complex. Friedrich Dilthey, who around 1950 successfully contested the German Formula 3 Championship, and who like Vorster originated from Rheydt (another textilefactory-dynasty), did not only race cars but also boats and he was a keen aviator and parachutist, too. [/B]


He appears a number of times in my race programmes, but I do not have ever (consciously) seen him on a picture or any information about him or boat racing either (never investigated on this subject). Perhaps as a little consolation to you for the information deficiency from my side I finally succeeded in the upload of the picture of Delfosse´s Gordini-Porsche:

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Don´t know whether it´s HIM in the cockpit, but who else could it be?

#12 eukie

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 19:00

Wonderful! Maybe as a small thank you here`s a little bit of information on Dilthey, taken from the RCM-booklet - unfortunately the article appears without source or date:

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I hope you can read it. For more info on his activities as an aviator click here: http://www.segelflug.../1925-1961.html

#13 uechtel

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 16:09

Do you have more of him on his racing activities?

#14 eukie

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 19:51

No, I`m sorry, only the accessible results listed at formel3guide.com, the "highlight" certainly being victory on the Grenzlandring in 1950.
What I do have ist a picture I hesitate to publish because you cannot see very much - it was taken by G.Nonninger at the Grenzlandring in 1952 - a certain "test day" on which I have to do some further research; the cars are supposed to be the Formula3 cars of the RCM-members which were Dilthey, Walter Weeke (WR Norton) and someone else unknown to me. Maybe the one in front is Dilthey`s Condor BMW?

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#15 uechtel

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 20:46

The second car looks like the Effyh / OK to me, but identification is really hard.

The car in front has a quite characteristic front, but I did not find another picture of a car looking like this.

The only Condor I know is the car which had been driven by von Hanstein a few years earlier, but that looked different. But I don´t know how many Condors existed neither whether teher were different types.

#16 eukie

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 15:39

Finally found pictures of Dilthey's Condor BMW and Weeke's WR Norton, both taken in the Eifelrennen 1951 paddock. According to formel3guide.com No. 154 is Dilthey (it might be the car in front on the Grenzlandring-picture, with some changes at the front, but I`m not sure), and No.157 in the picture at the bottom is Weeke.

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#17 uechtel

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 18:53

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eukie
Finally found pictures of Dilthey's Condor BMW and Weeke's WR Norton, both taken in the Eifelrennen 1951 paddock. According to formel3guide.com No. 154 is Dilthey (it might be the car in front on the Grenzlandring-picture, with some changes at the front, but I`m not sure),
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Yes, according to the race programme it is Dilthey and the COndor. It seems that the car was modified a couple of times (or alternatively that there were more than one such car), as this picture appeas in the Hanstein book:

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[quote]

and No.157 in the picture at the bottom is Weeke.
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[/QUOTE]
[/quote]

Yes, again in accordance to the entry list. So this looks very much like the Effyh, too (already the "OK" of Otto Kolan is reported to be a rechristened Effyh).

Also the other cars on the pictures are to be identified:

No. 34 Heinrich Sauter / Porsche 356
No. 18 Honore Wagner / BMW Special

nice...

#18 dretceterini

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 19:55

In the photo with 154, is the car on the left one of the Glocklers?

#19 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 21:21

Originally posted by eukie

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Following this wonderful thread and reading something about the Grenzlandring, ( I grow up some 40 km away, unfortunatly I made my first trip to the old track 15 years ago with my Audi 100 Coupé S, and could only find some nostalgie, but no engine noise :| ), I'm very interested in some information about the car in the picture on the left in the Nürburgring Fahrerlager. Looks to me like a DKW (Hartmann)?


@Uechtel: the Fahrerlager looks the same like our visit some weeks ago?;)

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#20 uechtel

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 21:30

In the photo with 154, is the car on the left one of the Glocklers?


I don´t think so. First there is none of the Glöckler cars in the entry list and also I think the two cars existing in 1951 looked different. If you want to compare by yourself follow the link

Left: The second Glöckler-Porsche (1500 cc winner); right: The original 1100 cc car

Canopies indicate Grenzlandring, as they were only used on high-speed circuits.


Holger, yes, I am very glad that this very athmospheric and historical place has been preserved over the years.

About that mystery car again: Don´t think a DKW either. This is clearly a sports car and I don´t have any DKW at all in the entry list, neither there nor in Formula 3. Taking the full-width windscreen into calculation this might even be not a competition car at all. I think there is a picture of something similar in my Schumann. Perhaps you take a look... ;)

Also I think that Hartmann´s times came a little later in the Formula Junior years at the end of the fifties. This picture here is still 1951 .

#21 eukie

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 09:29

Last week I spent a day at the town-archive of Mönchengladbach where some nice Grenzlandring-pictures can be found, among them the ultimate Walter Weeke pics. The first one was taken in 1951, Weeke in his F3 "WR":

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This caption on this one states that it was taken in 1951, too, but I slightly doubt that. It shows Weeke in his "Weeke Eigenbau" (Weeke Special).

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According to my records he raced his Special at the Grenzlandring only in 1949, in the Sportscars up to 1100 ccm class, but with Number 40. Does anybody out there have him at another race with that No. 58? maybe the other cars in the background can be identified? As to the car itself: In 1948 Weeke raced Emil Vorster`s MG - is it possible that this is the modified MG?

#22 Udo K.

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 09:56

The picture with car No.58 was definetely taken at the Nürburging. You can see the Shell-Tower and the castle in the background. Eifelrennen perhaps?

#23 Holger Merten

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 10:05

Originally posted by Udo K.
The picture with car No.58 was definetely taken at the Nürburging. You can see the Shell-Tower and the castle in the background. Eifelrennen perhaps?


I'll agree with Nürburgring, Udo. And isn't it interesting that such Nürburgring documents could be found in Mönchengladbach. What will be around there about other interesting informations for us?

#24 eukie

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 10:42

:blush: :blush: :blush:
How could I? Overlook the Nürburg.

#25 eukie

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 10:54

No doubt there is a mass of pictures and other documents in the archives! Althoug I just proofed I`m still to Grenzlandring-prone I believe that the other ones in Mönchengladbach were indeed taken at Wegberg. Problem was: I had to buy them, so I took only about 10 of aprox. 30 with me. I promise I will not hide them but show you time after time when I have done more research on the Grenzlandring.

#26 uechtel

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 18:49

1951 is certainly wrong, as that year the No. 58 was given to Polensky in his Simca (according to race programme...)

My guess is 1949, without confirmation as I don´t have the programme of the Eifelpokal and No. 58 does not appear in the programme for the Grand Prix. But I have confirmation, that a No. 58 was in the first event and the circle around the number was to distinct "Ausweisfahrer" (novices) from "Lizenzfahrer" (graded drivers) then. Also the colour of the car indicates towards 1949, as because of the ban on Germany the races were only national events with no national colours required on the cars. Also in 1950/51 sports cars had to have a dark stripe across the bonnet.

The car in the background looks like an MG.

#27 Michael Müller

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 07:14

One of the few occasions that somebody has access to original photos, so it is really a pity that eukie does not take the opportunity to make the scans somewhat larger.

#28 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 18:47

I saw an Ad today about a MB-Dealer in Mönchengladbach, named Weeke. Any relationships?

#29 eukie

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 19:57

I haven`t contacted that car-dealer in MG (Rheydt) yet, but I`m determined to do so - it certainly is the same family. I`m not sure whether there was another Weeke (somehow related to Walter) : Heinz Weeke of whom I have an obituary (without date, ca. 1960s). He seems to have been the founder of the cardealership in Rheydt, and the obituary also states that he did some racing and was member of the Grenzlandring-committee, too. And he was head of the important Rheydter Club of Motorsport for about 10 years.
But maybe this thread - supposed to be on Curt Delfosse - has grown a little bit out of hand? Anyway, in another article on the RCM from 1963 I found a successful club member named "Charly Heynckes" - anybody willing to ask Jupp? :)

Michael Müller: I admit to have downsized the Weeke-pictures in order to save some webspace and to fit them into the TNF-format - but only these ones: all the Nonninger-photos here and in the Vorster-thread aren't bigger than the posted scans. If you`re interested in larger Weeke-pictures let me know it via e-mail, so that I can mail you the original size.

#30 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 21:11

Originally posted by eukie
"Charly Heynckes" - anybody willing to ask Jupp? :)

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
But Jupp is "auf Schalke". And he won yesterday. Or the day before. It's not my favorite sport.

#31 uechtel

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 17:04

Originally posted by dretceterini
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In the photo with 154, is the car on the left one of the Glocklers?


This is what I had in mind, but indeed it seems to look different:

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The Scampolo 750 cc sports car, according to Schumann here a photo from the 1000 km race in 1953, where Komossa / Arnolds succeeded in winning their class. Strangely Schumann also tells that this was the debut run as the car had been ordered by a certain Dr. Heinz Rosberg, who insisted on a prove of its competitiveness by a success in that race.


#32 Frank S

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 23:42

Pages six and eight on this page show a Glockler Porsche.

I believe the Morgensen car at the bottom of page eight evolved into "Ol' Yaller."

#33 eukie

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Posted 21 December 2003 - 14:56

Some more findings regarding Delfosse: August Artur Delfosse jr. (Curt`s father, the "aviation pioneer"?) took part in the Herkomerkonkurrenz 1907; driving a Scheibler he won a gold-medal (source: Braunbeck`s Sport-Lexikon, p517).

After WWII Curt Delfosse owned a shipyard in Düsseldorf harbour where he built his boats. You can find several ads from him in the 1948/1949 volumes of German car-magazine "Das Auto". In 1949 he offered a boat around a Volkswagen engine, and also a small car (Klein-/Kleinstwagen). There is a short report on this car in Das Auto 1949 H.17, p24 , maybe with C.D. sitting behind the wheel (sorry, no scan available). The text makes no comment on whether he intented a series production. The picture shows a flat, streamlined aluminium body, the chassis is said to be of VW-origin and featured Hahn-oilpressure-brakes.

#34 uechtel

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Posted 21 December 2003 - 16:44

Here another picture on which the car can be seen more clearly.

http://hometown.aol....enheim_47_2.jpg

The picture was taken at Hockenheim in 1947 when motorsport really started over again in Germany. The new class of the midget cars became one of the most popular series in those days.

Delfosse´s car is the one in the middle ("DVD"). But I don´t know who the driver is.

#35 eukie

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Posted 21 December 2003 - 21:27

What a nice design that makes the other two cars look like soapboxes! uechtel, do you know who else (apart from Delfosse himself) drove DVDs in 1947-49? In my Grenzlandring-records I have Erich Köhler from Moers in 1948 and 1949.

In 1949 Ernst Hornickel, the influential motorracing-editor of Das Auto, published a large article in which he condemned the so-called Aerosaurier, i.e. fully streamlined racing cars, as a blind alley in german motorsport and thereby referred especially to Delfosse`s creations (the DVD and the newer AFM-streamliner of Teddy Vorster) - the latter was called Super-Aerodynamiko by Hornickel ... (other cars mentioned were Kuhnkes VW-special and the streamlined Veritas). Hornickel thought them to be dangerous regarding driveability and visibility and in general he reckoned they (and the highspeed Autobahn-races they were mainly built for) could isolate german motorsport even if international admission/recognition could be regained. In one of the following issues supporting statements by Hermann Lang, Manfred von Brauchitsch, Georg Meier and HP Müller were published, whereas Lorenz Dietrich (of Veritas) rejected Hornickels opinion.

#36 uechtel

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Posted 21 December 2003 - 23:11

Originally posted by eukie
What a nice design that makes the other two cars look like soapboxes! uechtel, do you know who else (apart from Delfosse himself) drove DVDs in 1947-49? In my Grenzlandring-records I have Erich Köhler from Moers in 1948 and 1949.


Yes, this guy also appears in the stats of the Schumann book in 5th place at the Grenzlandring in 1948. Other than that I have no information about DVD-drives :rotfl:

In 1949 Ernst Hornickel, the influential motorracing-editor of Das Auto, published a large article in which he condemned the so-called Aerosaurier, i.e. fully streamlined racing cars, as a blind alley in german motorsport and thereby referred especially to Delfosse`s creations (the DVD and the newer AFM-streamliner of Teddy Vorster) - the latter was called Super-Aerodynamiko by Hornickel ... (other cars mentioned were Kuhnkes VW-special and the streamlined Veritas). Hornickel thought them to be dangerous regarding driveability and visibility and in general he reckoned they (and the highspeed Autobahn-races they were mainly built for) could isolate german motorsport even if international admission/recognition could be regained. In one of the following issues supporting statements by Hermann Lang, Manfred von Brauchitsch, Georg Meier and HP Müller were published, whereas Lorenz Dietrich (of Veritas) rejected Hornickels opinion.


Yes, I read about that article (but alas never actually could read IN it for myself). It seems that there have been two fractions about streamliners and Delfosse, Dietrich, Loof and even more his friend Karl Kling were clearly on the streamline side. There were many arguments against the driveability of such machines, but in the end the Veritas RS "bathtub" had much more success on the national level than all the open wheelers together, even in Formula 2.

#37 eukie

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 13:38

By the way: what was DVD standing for? Delfosse V? Düsseldorf ???
Because copying was rather expensive in Stuttgart Landesbibliothek I only made some excerpts: here a two quotes: „Der 'Aero-Saurier' wurde zum NewLook des Sportwagenbaues, des deutschen Sportwagenbaues wollen wir genauer sagen. Teddy Vorster ließ sich bei Delfosse einen ‚Super-Aerodynamiko’ bauen, siegte 1948 damit in Hockenheim und überfuhr damit die letzten Skrupel weiterdenkender Kameraden.“ (...) „Andererseits benötigt eine der bei uns gängigen Veritas- und Delfosse-Häute, ins Schwimmen gekommen, allein durch die vor allem bei Delfosse langschwänzige Heckform den ganzen Kurvenausgang und nimmt dadurch dem dichtauf geschlossenen Verfolger die Möglichkeit der Beschleunigung und der Passage. Ich habe das in Schotten beobachtet, wo es Kuhnke nicht möglich war, an dem auch auf der Geraden sich nicht immer scharf rechts haltenden Vorster vorbeizukommen.“
Ernst Hornickel: Fort mit den Aerosauriern! In: Das Auto (4) 1949 H.5, S.18f.

#38 uechtel

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 02:23

Originally posted by eukie
By the way: what was DVD standing for? Delfosse [B]V? Düsseldorf ???

Sorry, I don´t know.

"Delfosse - Vorster - Düsseldorf" perhaps, but that is only a far-feched guess.

#39 eukie

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 15:33

A nice theory - as far as I know (about the life and work of Vorster) I cannot rule out this possibility, but if "Teddy" were involved why didn`t he name his own Delfosse-designed AFM "DVD", too? And Delfosse`s boats, his main business at this time and maybe financially interesting for a share-holder, were simply called "Delfosse".

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#40 uechtel

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 18:01

As I said, only an idea. "Delfosse von Düsseldorf" would sound like nonsense :stoned:

#41 eukie

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 15:04

Nothing is impossible - think of the "GvB" Kleinstrennwagen of Bobby Kohlrausch 1950: GvB =? "Geheimnis von Bobby". Maybe the "V" marks a word beginning with Verkehr ... since Delfosse probably wanted to expand into roadcars, too. But anyway, it doesn`t matter much.

#42 eukie

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 18:05

A german book on NSU cars features some interesting pages on the Delfosse Formula 4 racing cars: Gerhard Geiling: NSU - Fahrzeuge, Prototypen und Eigenbauten. Eschborn 1997, pp 60-64.

In 1960 Delfosse built seven, maybe as much as thirteen formula cars in Argentina, tested and promoted by greats like Fangio, Gonzalez and Mieres, that raced in a local series, with the intention to bridge the gap and find a niche between Formula Junior and GoKarts. The cars were based on NSU Prinz technology. In 1963 he tried to expand into the US market with a similar car (remeber the one offered at ebay some weeks ago!). Visiting the USA he had realized that his cars more or less fitted into american Formula 4. The text mentions a surviving car first owned by one Carter "Buddy" Penley from San Diego who raced it intensively in California during the 60ties. Afterwards it was used in a racing school, further owners include Mike Dupudja (1975), Dan Wise (1982) and Robert West who - at the time of Geiling's writing - wanted to do some historical racing with it.

The book contains a lot more, primarily technical info. If you`re interested you can download the (german!) pages on Delfosse from here - but please note that for webspace-reasons I will keep them online only for some weeks:

http://www.kie4192.d...fosse_nsu01.jpg
http://www.kie4192.d...fosse_nsu02.jpg
http://www.kie4192.d...fosse_nsu03.jpg

#43 Frank S

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 21:02

I can't imagine what use it would be, but I might be able to put someone in touch with Carter Penley (II, III or IV, I don't remember which "Buddy" was, but I see someone regularly who sees him regularly).

#44 eukie

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 12:42

As far as I`m concerned it could be of much use if he had known C.D. personally. For example I would be interested in any further biographical information which until now is still very sparse. Some basic questions: Why did Delfosse move from Germany to Argentina and then to the US? Has he been in racingcars before 1945? ... Maybe even some more contemporary pictures are left?

#45 Frank S

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 17:58

I'll see what I can do.

Frank S

#46 eukie

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 09:03

Thank you :wave:

#47 Holger Merten

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 21:02

Originally posted by uechtel


This is what I had in mind, but indeed it seems to look different:

Posted Image

The Scampolo 750 cc sports car, according to Schumann here a photo from the 1000 km race in 1953, where Komossa / Arnolds succeeded in winning their class. Strangely Schumann also tells that this was the debut run as the car had been ordered by a certain Dr. Heinz Rosberg, who insisted on a prove of its competitiveness by a success in that race.


Uechtel I would agree, it's the Scampolo - a DKW too. I found some pictures in my box. One of these pictures shows the car at the box with # 43. And another picture with that car during the Le Mans start.

#48 Frank S

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:34

Originally posted by Frank S
I'll see what I can do.


What I did was talk with Carter Penley. He was eager to share hes knowledge of the Delfosse Formula IV NSU-powered car and his memories of Delfosse the person.

I sent a message to eukie, but it seems he hasn't been around for a while, and hasn't answered. Anyone else like to pick up the thread?

Frank S

#49 Michael Müller

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:37

eukie is on vacation, will be back soon.

#50 eukie

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 16:24

Back again. Frank, I hope you received my e-mail, ASAP I will contact Carter Penley. (And thanks Michael for excusing me!).
In the meantime two more bits of Delfosse`s work: The first is an ad from 1949 for his Volkswagen-powered boats.
Posted Image

And here`s a picture of his VW-special sportscar (1949 again) he used everyday (at least he told so Das Auto ). There is however no clear indication that he wanted to produce and sell it in larger numbers.
Posted Image

BTW looking at his face I think we now can be sure that it is him, too, in the Gordini-Porsche uechtel posted above.